Talk:Mehmed of Dulkadir/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Aintabli (talk · contribs) 19:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Cplakidas (talk · contribs) 14:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Will take this on. Constantine ✍ 14:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Lede

• was the ruler of Dulkadir some context here? E.g. 'was the ruler of Dulkadir, a Turkmen principality in southeastern Anatolia' or similar

   Done

• He came to power with the intervention of the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I (r. 1389–1402) amidst the internal struggles within the Dulkadirids and forced his cousin Sadaqa to flee from Elbistan, the capital. suggest slight splitting up and reordering for clearer chronological succession, as well as some details on the strife: 'He came to power amidst internal quarrels within the Dulkadirid family, which pit him against his uncle, Shaban Suli, and cousin, Sadaqa. Mehmed evicted Suli from the capital, Elbistan, but was in turn ousted by Sadaqa. It was the intervention of the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I (r. 1389–1402) that forced Sadaqa to flee and installed Mehmed on the throne.' or similar, provided I understand the events correctly (more on that in my comments below)

  Expanded and reworded some parts.

• clashes with the Mamluks link to the Mamluk Sultanate and give some context, e.g. 'Mamluk Sultanate that ruled Egypt and Syria' and that the Mamluks traditionally ruled the region of Dulkadir as overlords.

   Done

  Made some minor tweaks there. Constantine ✍ 10:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• to the Mamluk Sultan give his name

   Done Dumb mistake from me to leave that out in the lead.

• in regions outside his control, such as in Jerusalem I think it should be noted that these regions were under Mamluk control, as this shows the aforementioned good relations on one hand and explains how he was able to do it.

   Done Aintabli (talk) 22:40, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Early life and background

• Suggest reverting the order in the section title to 'Background and early life'

   Done

• The lede mentions a birth date 'before 1362', but this is ignored here. Please add what is known or can be surmised about the date of his birth

  "Before 1362" is based on the description by Yinanç on page 55 that Mehmed was past 80 years old when he died, which I have now explained in the background and early life section. Aintabli (talk) 15:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  Not an issue for this nomination, but the footnote can easily be integrated into the main text. Constantine ✍ 10:25, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Mehmed defeated and forced his ruling uncle to flee to Develi with the aid of the Mamluk governor of Sis in the summer of 1389 did Mehmed defeat his uncle 'with the aid of the Mamluk governor of Sis in the summer of 1389' or did Suli manage to flee 'with the aid of the Mamluk governor...'? If the former, I would suggest moving the 'with the aid ...' part to the start of the sentence. Also, does this mean that Mehmed took over Elbistan in 1389 (I assume that this is where Suli fled from)? I suggest to mention this explicitly, and introduce Elbistan as the Dulkadirid capital.

  The former explanation is true (which I tried to clarify in the article), but the source doesn't make it clear when they clashed, so it may not have been Elbistan.

• Would Mintash warrant a redlink?

  Added link. Aintabli (talk) 22:23, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• My usual comment on cities and localities mentioned in the article: give some context for the reader as to their geographic location, and ideally a map where they are shown. The extent of Mehmed's domains is also a bit unclear, as cities as remote as Palmyra or Harpoot appear suddenly; I would suggest adding a brief mention here what the Dulkadirid domains were.

  Added a location map. Specified the locations of Tadmur and Harpoot. Aintabli (talk) 19:33, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

• traveled to Cairo to receive the manshūr (the diploma to rule) from the Mamluks suggest something like 'traveled to the Mamluk capital, Cairo,' or 'traveled to the Mamluk court in Cairo', then 'from the Mamluks' becomes redundant.

   Done

• manshur should be in the transliteration template; and a better gloss might be 'diploma of investiture'

   Done

• When Sadaqa returned to Elbistan Some more context on this? How did that happen? With Mamluk support? And clarify whether Elbistan had until then been ruled by Mehmed.

  Sadaqa returned from Cairo, where he sought confirmation of his rule, so this "return" didn't necessarily involve a military force, it reads like a trip, and the source doesn't mention any Mamluk support that accompanied him anyways. The source doesn't include any remarks on Mehmed's rule over Elbistan during Sadaqa's trip to Cairo.

• over the lands formerly under the sovereignty of Kadi Burhan al-Din clarify where these lands were located in relation to Dulkadir

   Done

• He was installed by Bayezid I last person mentioned is Kadi Burhan al-Din

  Fixed.

• who forced his rival cousin who previously held the throne, Sadaqa, out of Elbistan redundancy; Sadawa has already been introduced

  Fixed. Aintabli (talk) 22:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

• Certain names of individuals and localities are linked more than once, please consider MOS:OVERLINK

  Removed duplicate links. Aintabli (talk) 02:40, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Reign

• Link Sivas and explain that it was in Ottoman hands and its significance

   Done

• Gloss kishlak and explain why/how the Dulkadirids were at Palmyra, so far south of Elbistan

  I have added the meaning of kishlak inside parentheses, but the sources do not make it clear why they were so far away from Anatolia. It being a winter pasture reveals that these people were not settled at all, so that may at least make that part less unexpected.

  With the gloss that makes it somewhat clearer; nevertheless it should be somewhere mentioned that the Dulkadirids were part settled and part transhumant nomads, because for a modern reader such modes of life may be entirely alien. A footnote would be enough. Constantine ✍ 10:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Mentioned transhumance. Hope it's better now.

• The Ottoman Sultan Bayezid faced a major loss and subsequent imprisonment by Timur at the Battle of Ankara in July 1402 should belong to the next section.

   Done Thank you.

• Nasir al-Din Mehmed I assume that the laqab appears to help distinguish him from Mehmed Chelebi? Then I would suggest either using 'Nasir al-Din Mehmed' throughout, or use just 'Mehmed', since Mehmed I is always referred to as Mehmed Chelebi already.

   Done

• Mehmed Chelebi was successfully enthroned as the new head of the Ottomans suggest 'After the defeat and death of Musa in July 1413, Mehmed Chelebi was enthroned as the new head of the Ottomans' or similar to provide a link with the previous and give an idea of the chronology

  Copied verbatim.

• Redlinks for Tanriverdi, Demirtash, Muhammad bin Kopek, Janibeg al-Sufi?

   Done

• the restoration of an-Nasir Faraj's authority in Aleppo, the former Mamluk governors of Aleppo and Damascus something is missing here

  Yes, either there's presumably something missing, and I've checked previous revisions in case I removed it by mistake, but I couldn't find anything. That part also exists verbatim in another part of the same paragraph, so I might have accidentally copy-pasted it and did not notice the abrupt switch.

• al-Mu'ayyad Shaykh conversely led two expeditions against the Dulkadirids, the first of which retook Aintab and Darende (which was lost after), and Ala al-Din Ali joined the latter. 'conversely' is redundant, and I assume Ali joined the Mamluks? This is not entirely clear.

  Removed "conversely" and underlined that Ali served the Mamluks.

• Mehmed reinstated Dulkadirid rule in Elbistan 'reinstated' doesn't work well here, 'restored'?

   Done

• He appointed his brother Ali as the governor of Marash was this not already done by the Mamluks? Did Marash return under Mehmed's rule, after which he reappointed his brother to it, or did he merely acknowledge his brother's Mamluk title?

  No, Ali's son Hamza was the governor of Marash, while Ali himself was made the governor of Elbistan. Then, Mehmed appoints Ali as the governor of Marash. Ali and Hamza are named consecutively, which I had tried to clarify by putting "respectively" there.

• Mehmed built many madrasas in and outside his realm, including the Nasiriyya or Hatuniyya Madrasa in Kayseri and Ghadiriyya in Jerusalem north of the sacred al-Aqsa Mosque. Other examples of his architectural legacy were erected in Aintab, Marash, and outside of Aleppo Unless this was during this period, I would suggest moving this to a 'Legacy' section.

  I've created a new section for that prior to seeing this comment as I have found a good source for the madrasa in Jerusalem.

  Excellent, a few points concerning the new section:

  • The madrasa should be redlinked (or create a stub if you have a good source), especially as it is still an extant structure

  I have added a redlink and will create the article soon. The Burgoyne source is solely about the madrasa.

  • who was the amīr liwā' (governor) here the technical term is not important and can be omitted, so just 'governor' would suffice IMO

   Done

  • Ottoman rule of Jerusalem should be linked to a relevant page, perhaps Jerusalem Sanjak?

  Sanjak doesn't cover all of the Ottoman rule, and it was more like an administrative division. I have instead linked History of Jerusalem.

  • To avoid MOS:SANDWICHING, consider putting the images of Mehmed's buildings in a gallery at the end of the new section.

   Done Aintabli (talk) 15:46, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Make clear that Barsbay and Laqmaq were Mamluk sultans

   Done

• His son Hamza 'Ali's son Hamza'

   Done

• favoring deceased Ali's son Hamza and replaced Mehmed's son Fayyaz with him 'favoring Ali's son Hamza and replaced Mehmed's son Fayyaz with the former', as Ali's death is mentioned already

   Done Copied verbatim.

• Why was Hamza executed? Last he is mentioned as being in Mamluk favor

  Unclear, but I assume it may have to do with the failure of the campaigns.

  To clarify, it is unclear looking at the source, but its placement "may" suggest a relation, which is also the same in this article, but I cannot put anything into words as the source doesn't, too. Aintabli (talk) 19:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough. Constantine ✍ 10:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Mamluk relations 'Dulkadirid relations with the Mamluks'

   Done

Family

• Clarify that Refet Yinanç and Margaret Venzke are modern historians

  Identified the former as a modern historian, and slightly worded the rest differently so that Venzke logically has to be a modern historian, too.

• Gloss waqf (pious foundation or charitable establishment)

   Done Aintabli (talk) 19:11, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

That's it for a first pass. The article looks comprehensive and is well referenced, but needs some copyediting and context for the non-familiar reader. Once the points above are done, I will do another read-through. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 14:01, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

@Cplakidas, I think I have gone through all your comments. As a note, I have slightly expanded the article, which the first pass doesn't involve. Aintabli (talk) 19:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

@Aintabli: most of the issues are done, a few new ones noted above, otherwise good to go. I did a spotcheck on Venzke (no access to Yinanç), looks good. Constantine ✍ 10:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: I have now addressed the other points. You can actually download Yinanç's book. I was initially using a physical copy but figured this out recently. I am unsure if it is okay for me to detail it here. If you would be interested, I can email you. Aintabli (talk) 15:46, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@Aintabli: I definitely would be interested, thanks. The changes are fine, so I am very happy to promote this now. Constantine ✍ 15:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.