Talk:Meher Baba/GA2

GA Reassessment

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GAR withdrawn. Article remains listed as a Good Article. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:13, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tick box

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose is clear and concise, without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. Has an appropriate reference section:

B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Comments on GA criteria

Pass

Has a reference section. Uses the short citation method, which is the easiest for editors to produce, but the most difficult for readers to use (as the reader has to look in two places to tie up the information). Consideration could be given to changing to the standard citation method where all the relevant information is kept in the same citation. But this is not a GA criteria, so does not impact on the review. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:49, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article is stable. No significant edit wars. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Images B. Images are relevant and appropriately captioned. Consideration could be given to the amount of images of Meher Baba. Too many images of the same topic tend to reduce their impact. The most important image is probably File:Pointingalphabet.jpg, so that one should be kept. Possibly of least interest to the general reader is File:Baba paramount.jpg. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:07, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Cites. Article is sourced. Statements check out when researched - though sources used have not been checked in themselves. Other sources have been used to cross-check. The Legacy section has a number of unsourced statements that could be looked at, but as the statements are not significant, I don't see that as much of a problem. The statements, such as "characters resembling Baba, have frequently appeared in works of comic book writer J. M. DeMatteis" can either be sourced or simply removed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:47, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is no evidence of original research. All statements appear to be factual, and verifiable. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:47, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. Article is admirably neutral. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:58, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Query

Images A. Why is it OK to use File:Meher baba car.jpg? What is happening in the image is not clear, and so needs a text explanation. Given that the article is not short of images of Meher Baba, to claim fair use for this one seems to be stretching matters. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Prose. I have difficulty sometimes in understanding the significance of the information I am given. For example: Baba was invited to the "Meherashram" retreat in Harmon, New York by Malcolm and Jean Schloss. A Time magazine article on the visit states that Schloss referred to him in uppercase as "He, Him, His, Himself" and that Baba was described by his followers variously as the "God Man," "Messiah" or "Perfect Master." There is a significance there that is not being conveyed by the text. Also, the article should follow MOS:LQ, so that the above, for example, reads: Baba was described by his followers variously as the "God Man", "Messiah", or "Perfect Master". SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Focus. There is perhaps a disproportionate amount of material on his biography compared to the teachings/ideas/philosophies/discourses. Consideration could be given to how best to address this. Perhaps split off some of the biographical material to a new article, where it could be developed further. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:57, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fail

Lead. To meet GA criteria 1(b), which relates to specific manual of style guidelines, the article needs to comply with the advice in WP:LEAD. That is, in addition to being an introduction, the lead needs to be an adequate overview of the whole of the article. As a rough guide, each major section in the article should be represented with an appropriate summary in the lead. Also, the article should provide further details on all the things mentioned in the lead. And, the first few sentences should mention the most notable features of the article's subject - the essential facts that every reader should know. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:43, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Major aspects. A summary of his teachings would be valuable. The EB entry on Meher Baba gives an indication of the sort of thing needed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:54, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopædia Britannica entry on Meher Baba

Meher Baba's cosmology may be summarized as follows: the goal of all life is to realize the absolute oneness of God, from whom the universe emanated as a result of the whim of unconscious divinity to know itself as conscious divinity. In pursuit of consciousness, evolution of forms occurs in seven stages: stone or metal, vegetable, worm, fish, bird, animal, and human. Every individualized soul must experience all of these forms in order to gain full consciousness. Once consciousness is attained, the burden of impressions accumulated in these forms prevents the soul from realizing its identity with God. To gain this realization the individual must traverse an inward spiritual path, eliminating all false impressions of individuality and eventuating in the knowledge of the “real self” as God.

Meher Baba saw his work as awakening the world through love to a new consciousness of the oneness of all life. To that end he lived a life of love and service which included extensive work with the poor, the physically and mentally ill, and many others, including such tasks as feeding the poor, cleaning the latrines of untouchables, and bathing lepers. He saw a responsibility to give spiritual help to “advanced souls,” and travelled throughout the Indian subcontinent to find such persons.

These outward activities Meher Baba saw as indications of the inner transformation of consciousness that he came to give the world. He established and later dismantled many institutions of service, which he compared to scaffolding temporarily erected to construct a building that really was within the human heart. He said that a “new humanity” would emerge from his life's work, and that he would bring about an unprecedented release of divine love in the world.

Meher Baba never sought to form a sect or proclaim a dogma; he attracted and welcomed followers of many faiths and every social class with a message emphasizing love and compassion, the elimination of the selfish ego, and the potential of realizing God within themselves. Although his equation of the several manifestations of God was syncretic, he won many followers from sects and denominations that repudiated syncretism, and encouraged those followers to be strong in their original faiths. After his death his followers heeded his wish that they not form an organization, but continued to gather informally and often to discuss and read his works and express through music, poetry, dance, or drama their reflections on his life. His tomb at Meherabad, near Ahmednagar, has become a place of pilgrimage for his followers throughout the world. His books include Discourses (5 vol., 1938–43; the earliest dictated on an alphabet board, the others by gesture), God Speaks: The Theme of Creation and Its Purposes (1955), and The Everything and the Nothing (1963).Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 2013

MOS:LAYOUT. Some of the sub-sections are rather short, making reading awkward and uninviting. The two subsections in the 1940s section, could come under the 1940s heading, but perhaps with a new name: 1940s - New Life; the four subsections in the 1950s section could all be combined under the one section, perhaps with a new title: 1950s - God Speaks and automobile accidents. Etc. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:09, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

General comments

Point taken about the lead. The two editors currently active here (myself and Dazedbythebell) will be working on it. Hoverfish Talk 21:39, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed several mentioned questionable or unnecessary images, removed the strangely worded Malcolm and Jean Schloss reference, and the unreferenced DeMatteis comic book statement from Legacy. Dazedbythebell (talk) 22:02, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On hold

I think most of this can be dealt with fairly quickly. The layout issue is quite easy to fix - though is best done by those who know the subject, as they can select the most appropriate section titles. The lead should again be a matter relatively easy to fix. It's mainly a matter of summarising the main sections. I think once a decent summary of the teachings/philosophy/ideas of Meher Baba is presented in the article, the rest of it will fall into place. I don't think I am the person to do the work as it would require too much time to do the proper research - this does need subject specialists. But I can certainly give feedback on progress, and again assess the end result. I am putting on hold for the initial seven days. I am really flexible on time. I'll be happy to close this tomorrow if the work is done. Conversely, I am content to keep the review open for a month or more. I am not an impatient man, and I understand the demands of real life, and that we are all volunteers working here in our spare time. As long as work is being done, and progress is being made, I'm content to keep the review open. My aim here is to improve the article, not to have it delisted. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 22:18, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate fully what you are doing here. It is good to have input from an editor of your experience in GAs. Hoverfish Talk 23:06, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SilkTork, while Meher Baba is still on hold, can you please take a look at what we have done so far and let us know if you see further issues? I have commented about one point that is not up to us to fix. Thank you. Hoverfish Talk 16:52, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tied up at the moment. Will try to get to this later today or perhaps over the weekend. Sorry for delay. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 13:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The lead still needs work. What is the "one point that is not up to us to fix"? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 13:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What I think Hoverfish is referring to is the request to explain better the significance of things like Baba's silence and New Life. Hoverfish is right that this is a problem. It is agreed by all in and outside Baba that no one actually knows what the significance of these strange stages and developments of his life meant. He simply always said they had "inner" meaning, and never clarified at all. In fact, his first biographer Charles Purdom wrote: "How often in the course of this book have I had to use the words, 'Baba has not explained'!" (Purdom p. 443). This is what Hoverfish meant that one problem we can't fix ourselves. Dazedbythebell (talk) 13:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, could you be more specific about 'more work'? We did work quite hard on the lead on what you said, and we added the section on teachings and worked to reflect the sections in the article. Dazedbythebell (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a look at it later, and do a bit of work on it. At the moment there are loose sentences, and the Legacy section is not appropriately represented. As regards the teachings - what do you recommend as the best guide - both accessible and authoritative? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 14:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I may have misplaced my previous comment, so I will move it down here with its original date stamp and comment further below it as soon as I find a free moment. Hoverfish Talk 15:06, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The issue raised above in Query/Focus is not something that we as editors can fix. It is rather a problem that whereas a lot has been written about Meher Baba's life, very little has been written about his work until now. So the more we try to expand, the more we run into the problem of lack of secondary sources, or issues of interpretation, which would amount to original research. Hoverfish Talk 16:23, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what "guide" you mean we should recommend. There is no secondary literature whatsoever written about Meher Baba's teachings, if this is what you mean. We are using the primary source, that is, the two books we are summarizing, which are both accessible freely online in pdf format. To this day, no other authority has written anything about Baba's teachings that we can quote. You are most welcome to do your own research. I hope you do not assume that we are hiding something that could be used as secondary source to describe in any meaningful way Meher Baba's teachings. Hoverfish Talk 16:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On the issue of the Legacy section, at times there have been various consensus discussions: Too little Townsend, too much Townsend, why this and not that, etc. I personally have no preference and also no idea of what this section should look like. My only concern (from experience) is that if we rock it too much, we will get input to the contrary before long. One way or the other, it should be improved for the GA criteria. I have no clue as to how. Hoverfish Talk 19:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Originally this article didn't have a legacy section. Rather it had two sections, one on Followers, and one on the influence on Pete Townshend of the Who. One can see a good representation of this stage (from 2006) here. Note, however that there was not a single reference for any of it. It was 100% original research (the opinions of Wikipedia editors). Since then the decision was, after many arguments, that Townshend was given undue weight, and so a Legacy section was created to combine the two parts. This then became a forum for frequent quarrels about whose favorite pop-star was to be included, and how much space to give each. To resolve conflicts there were lots of compromises to satisfy people's views of who they saw as most influential and so deserving the most visibility. It would grow and shrink. It's current size and content is really only the result of where it was when all the fights quieted down and everyone seemed satisfied. So if it is not representative of what it should be, this is not a new thought. Few ever felt it was. My personal feeling is the entire section could be omitted, as it adds nothing but interesting pop-culture trivia. One might as well also add that Baba's name came up on Jeopardy. Baba's only real legacy was the books he left behind, and what very small influence they have had on thought -- and I know no secondary source that discusses what affect that might have been. His followers are few, and there is no actual tabulation of them as there is no such thing as actual membership in anything. So this is mostly a place for fan trivia. I would just eliminate it unless it could be made to be significant to the article. Dazedbythebell (talk)

My suggestion for Legacy that would be more true would be this: Meher Baba left a legacy of books on consciousness, most notably in Discourses and God Speaks. In addition he left numerous books that are collections of minor messages given throughout his life. He left a small following with no central core doctrine other than his books, and who are not coordinated under any organization. His Trust in India maintains his tomb and surrounding terrain, as well as his home in Meherazad as places of pilgrimage, and make his teachings available. Dazedbythebell (talk) 23:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In theory Dazedbythebell is correct, but in practice I think that trimming it down so much will cause a new influx of trivia. Townsend, Melanie, Bobby McFerrin, "celebrities of the time such as 1,2,3..." should be mentioned IMO. That Baba's message on drugs made a round in some notable circles, is also "legacy" IMO. But the statement "Parts of the rock-opera Tommy (May 1969) were inspired by Townshend's study of Baba, to whom the album was dedicated.[117]" has an issue: It was not Pete who said that Tommy was inspired by his study of Baba. This is the assumption of the reporter who made the article in a magazine (was it the Rolling Stone?). The citation given is the inscription on the album and verifies only that the album was dedicated to Baba. This much can be said without a problem. For the inspiration we have to mention that "according to magazine so-and-so, Tommy was inspired by ...etc". Hoverfish Talk 02:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. My point is only that I hold no personal attachment to this section as it is, and am open to whatever changes SilkTork would like to do that will make it reach GA criteria. Dazedbythebell (talk) 19:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for very long delay. I am a little tied up at the moment. I will get to this shortly. I am going to be on Wikipedia on and off today, and hopefully I'll find the time to work on the lead. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to withdraw this GAR as I don't have the time at the moment to attend to it, and it would be inappropriate to keep this GAR open indefinitely due to my own inactivity. When I do have some time I hope to return to help tidy things up. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:07, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GAR withdrawn

GAR is now withdrawn. The article remains listed as a Good Article. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:13, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]