Talk:Medieval rock/Archive 1

Archive 1

Medieval metal=Mittelalter rock/metal?

I'm assuming medieval metal is mittelalter rock/metal, a genre based in Germany but why is it called medieval metal if it is so similar? FireCrystal (talk) 21:56, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

We have a language confusion to sort out between English and German versions. Mittelalter rock seems to interchangable with Mittelalter metal and they are both used (as far as I can tell) to describe the same thing, a post 1990 for of medieval inspired heavy metal. But in English Medieval Metal and Medieval rock mean two different things, metal is a sub-genre of rock and so fits within it. We need to decide how to deal with this. I suggest that medieval metal goes to the Mittellter page and medieval rock goes here. But mittelalter rock and mittelalter metal both go to the mittelalter metal page, but view appreciated.--Sabrebd (talk) 22:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

So you suggest medieval metal to redirect to both mittelalter rock and metal because the two are described as the same thing? Is this right? If so, then no problem. I'm for it. FireCrystal (talk) 01:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Question

I'm afraid that a lot of this comes across to me as original research. Is there any evidence that any of the bands mentioned in the article - aside from the German acts - have been described and identified by reliable sources as belonging to a genre known as medieval rock? That some bands use medieval instruments or techniques on a few of their songs is really quite trivial information. Black Sabbath has been known to use a choir but that does not mean we should start writing something about choir rock. So what if Camel's Mirage contains flute and organ and some medieval stylings? A google search reveals only 68 hits for Camel + "Medieval Rock" and none of those 68 hits appear to be of any significance. Google results for the other bands mentioned in this article are similarly poor. --Bardin (talk) 08:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I see that you are the main editor of the Mittelalter rock/metal article and obviously very knowledgeable in that area. I really do not want to get into a protracted debate, if I can avoided, about validity. Your comment is a serious one and would like to take a few days to consider it. This might involve a recasting of this and the neo-medieval music article which I can see you have problems with, and which all the conributors to this page (so far) share. In the meantime I have added a link at the top of this article to Mittellter Metal and have changed Medieval Metal to go to the same place (see above), as I think this will minimise confusion and make sure people go to the page they are looking for. I hope we can come to some consensus that will sort the genre issues out without having to subtract from the breadth of knowldege in these articles.--Sabrebd (talk) 16:54, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with an article on Medieval rock co-existing with an article on Mittelalter-rock. Any confusion can be dealt with through hat-notes and in-article explanations. I don't want you to get the impression that I'm a deletionist or prejudiced. Just letting you know that while your efforts are admirable, it's pretty much original research unless you've got some reliable sources that identify these bands as medieval rock instead of merely remarking on their use of medieval instruments or sounds. --Bardin (talk) 06:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Written sources (books) in this article are great but another problem here is that most of the sources are written articles and not websites so it would be hard to check them. I would suggest some online references to also be used which of course would need to be found. Also, let's not base this entirely on google hits. It may be a good way to check the amount of viable references (online) but there are novels as references on the subject (so it seems) and they would need to be reviewed. FireCrystal (talk) 19:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see, none of the books cited in the article are being used as sources for the identification of any band as medieval rock. They are there as sources for other information, such as the use of medieval model harmonies in Black Sabbath's Warpigs. Nobody is disputing the information that these books are used as sources, only that one vital piece of info that the books are not being used as sources: the existence of a genre known as Medieval rock that includes all the bands mentioned in the article. --Bardin (talk) 06:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I wanted a little time so that I could look at what I had written with fresh eyes, sometimes it is hard to come to what you have just written and see it as other do. After those reflections I think I see were these points are coming from and how the issues can possibly be resolved.

Let me be clear about what is being noted in this article: it is not that ‘Medieval rock’ is a genre that ran c1970 to today, but that it was a genre by that name in the 1970s (as can be pretty easily demonstrated - see below), that it then moved off and dissipated (or the bands gave up) into prog rock and eventually other things. For that period the medieval was only an influence. Then a new sub-genre evolved in Germany as Mittelalter metal/rock (the article does not deal with this in detail but, as is the Wikipedia style summarises the more detailed article which I have been at pains to point to.’

Now I can see how (as I think) a reader might think that the argument is for continuous development, but that is not what was intended, and I think it is useful that you have pointed to this. If this is the problem I suggest the following for clarification:

• When I originally drafted the article there was a sentence in the progressive bit that said something like ‘these were not medieval rock bands but it was an important influence among many – which they could take or leave’. I regret removing it, so perhaps it should go back.

• Also I think that a sentence near the start on use of the term would help, explaining it was used and dropped and then used again for something new (metal) from about 1990 on.

• Finally, I think that the subheadings for the middle sections could helpfully read ‘Influence in Progressive rock’ etc.

On the sections that deal with the influence of the medieval, I feel this is entirely legitimate. This is not my opinion, it is that of the major scholars in this field who published in refereed academic books and is an entirely valid observation. As Wikipedia:Reliable sources points out ‘Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources when available.’ For this reason I have preferred them to temporary, non-peer reviewed and temporary websites. However, it is my opinion that web based sources must be used for some topics as those topics have not yet made it into academic books. This is true of Mittelalter rock. I could find only one reference to it in an (English language) book. It is no surprise that web searches turn up much more references to Mittelalter rock, the fans of 1970s medieval rock are now about 50 years old, the web has only existed for about 15 years and Mittelalter bands are current, whereas 1970s medieval rock is obsolete.

However, here are some web-based sources that might help:

‘Steeleye Span "Medieval rock" is one way of describing them’,http://mindstalk.net/span/

Describes Gryphon as ‘Medieval rock’ New Spotlight - Ireland's National Music Entertainment Weekly - Vol. 7 No. 10 August 30th 1973 http://www.barrymccabe.com/newspotlightmagazine/entry?id=12

Gryphon Described by own record company as ‘Medieval rock’ (Transatlantic Records booklet, 1974) http://www.gaudela.net/gryphon/sb-Portfolio-2.html

Marque Official History describes Gryphon as 'Medieval Rock' http://www.themarqueeclub.net/timeline

Examples for this band can be multiplied at some length

Article describes ‘Ougenweide’ as ‘foundational group for medieval rock’ http://www.dirtylinen.com/128/128medieval.html

In general Amazing Blondel were defined as ‘medieval rock’ even though author disagrees http://prognotfrog.blogspot.com/2006/08/amazing-blondel-amazing-blondel-few.html

Review refers to fact that sometimes Gentle Giant were defined as ‘medieval rock’ – http://www.music-city.org/Gryphon/Red-Queen-to...Raindance-149269/

On later non-Mittelalter bands:

Review Describes Avalon Rising as ‘Medieval Rock’ http://www.flowinglass.com/avalon/reviews.html

Circulus Described as ‘Medieval rock n’ roll’ and ‘medieval rock’ in fanzine http://www.noclass.co.uk/circulus.html

Blackmore’s Knight’s own website describes their music as ‘Renaissance rock’ http://www.blackmoresnight.com/media_archives/html/usa_wliw_2006.htm

Issues raised:

It has been useful to consider the issues raised on this page which I think promote some positive improvements. Apart from the points about clarity above I think that the following also need to be addressed:

• That examples of 1970s ‘medieval rock’ bands need to be increased to indicate size of genre. Which can be done fairly easily.

• This last example points the need to distinguish Blackmore's Knight and other modern 'light' bands from Heavy Metal Mittelalter bands, which I notice the Mittelalter metal page does not mention, so I think they belong here. It seems these might be ‘renaissance rock’ as they are in the sub-title on this page and perhaps the Mittelalter page could point back to this one for such bands.I would appreciate advice on how you think these can be defined.

• I will add references to the above web sources where appropriate (some as in-text citation and some as useful resources).

In a spirit of co-operation I hope these improvements will answer the points raised on this page.--Sabrebd (talk) 10:16, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

There's a difference between using the word medieval as a description and the word as a genre. I'll be the first to say that the music of Blackmore's Night sounds a whole lot more medieval than the harsh industrial sound of Tanzwut. But whereas there are various reliable sources identifying Tanzwut as a "mittelalter-rock" band along the same line as In Extremo, Saltatio Mortis, and other such bands, there are no reliable sources identifying Blackmore's Night as a medieval rock band along the same line as Yes, Gryphon, Led Zeppelin or any of the other bands mentioned in your article. What you are doing here is writing an article about medieval influences in modern rock music rather than any genre known as medieval rock. Perhaps you might want to consider changing the name of the article as such. --Bardin (talk) 11:50, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not necessarily adverse moving some of the info on this page to such a themed article if that is clearly the best way of organizing things. However, your comment seems to tacitly accept that there was a genre called 'medieval rock' from the early 1970s, which reliable sources indicate, (including this additional one, which specifically mentions Gryphon and Amazing Blondel [here]). That being now clear, there can be no doubt that there should be a rock genre article here under this name which deals with this topic, with the appropriate steps taken to minimize confusion with Mittelalter rock, most of which I have already carried out. It is legitimate, indeed incumbent on editors, to explain where a genre came from and where it went to through continued influence. I think this takes the article through progressive rock and into early heavy metal (I have already changed the name of this subsection to minimize any confusion with Mittelalter metal).

It is the sections after that I think need some further consideration. I am at the moment uncertain how to classify the 'light' medieval/renaissance rock, perhaps because it is relatively recent in origin and this needs some consideration and an examination of what secondary sources say about it. As to the dark wave material, I think it is possible that some of this can be moved to the Neo-medieval music article. But that needs substantial consideration and a re-write first. I will post about that in more detail there where it is appropriate. If you wish to engage in that discussion I think it would be extremely useful given your knowledge in the related area.

So this is what I propose. That this article stands with its name, with the revisions I outlined above. That I undertake an investigation into the light/renaissance rock portion. That there is a discussion with a view to revising and improving the Neo-medieval music page which might involve material from here.

This might not fit with your view of how the pages should be, but I have attempted to answer your points at some length and in a positive spirit and I think that a neutral person will admit that I have done so. I very much want to achieve a consensus with yourself and FireCrystal, but we three are not the entire Wikipedia community and this discussion has happened over a few days. This page was begun in part to resolve issues already raised on the Mittelalter metal disscussion page so that interested parties should be allowed time to find this page and comment, as unlike us, they do not read and contribute every day. Consensus needs to be wider than just three people in three days. I hope you can accept these efforts and that we can both constructively contribute the knowledge and quality of these pages.--Sabrebd (talk) 19:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I have yet to be convinced that there was a recognized genre known as medieval rock from the 1970s. All I've seen thus far are a few usage of the word medieval to describe the style of some folk rock bands: that is, a description rather than a genre. When I originally rewrote the mittelalter-rock article, there was no mention of Ougenweide. Another editor brought my attention to the band and an interview in German where they were described as pioneers of the genre. Having heard the music of Ougenweide, I must admit that I was puzzled as to how this band from the 1970s could possibly be the pioneers of a genre like mittelalter-metal. They are quite different and far removed. Initially, when I read your article, I was still confused because all I saw was a bunch of unrelated bands mentioned. Now I have a better understanding and realize that Ougenweide's "medieval rock" is indeed a different genre altogether from the likes of Tanzwut, In Extremo and Saltatio Mortis. The "medieval rock" that you are pushing for recognition is that of Ougenweide, Gryphon and Amazing Blondel. That is what you should be concentrating on. Forget about Yes, Black Sabbath, Led Zep, etc. The relationship of these bands to anything medieval is trivial and insignificant. You are doing yourself a disservice by mentioning them in the article. So here's my suggestion: rename this article to Medieval folk rock because, as the last source you provided indicate, that is what bands like Ougenweide, Gryphon and Amazing Blondel are. Create a paragraph summary and link on the main folk rock article. This Medieval rock page can then be turned into a disambiguation page so that anyone who type in the words "medieval rock" into wikipedia will be presented with the choice of visiting either the medieval folk rock or the medieval metal page. --Bardin (talk) 12:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we are very close to agreement. I am with you over Ougenweide, they part of the medieval (folk) rock that is a sub-genre of electric folk and progressive folk (which are sub-genres of folk rock). It looks to me like its the same situation as the UK where this genre is gone as such by the 1980s (if not earlier), I do not see mittelalter metal bands continuing this genre, like you I took the source at face value. When I have posted the revisions I will post something about this on the mittelalter metal discussion page which would support a reconsideration of that relationship should you decide to make one.

From this point my (unposted) re-write is getting ahead of this discussion, and it will take me a little time to complete, but it will reflect this and some of the other points raised. On the prog rock and early metal sections, I still see it as legitimate to explain the influences of the genre on this - but it may well be in a more abbreviated form. Now it is not a bridge to another genre it must work differently, so lets see how that works out, it may not be such a disservice to me as it now seems to you.

I will give very serious consideration to the disambiguation page, this could be a good solution as long as it is accurate. I am in agreement with the point you made here, certainly when it started, 'medieval rock' meant 'medieval electric folk' or 'medieval folk rock'. It would have been easier if they had just called it that, but might be hard to have a page using a name they didn't employ - I will go back to the sources on this.

Additionally, in case it is not clear, my plan is to move the dark wave etc stuff to neo-medieval music, but the lack of sources and other problems there may hold that up for a while. Any posts to support that idea on the discussion page there would be appreciated as it will have a big effect on that article and I don't want to seem to be editing someone else's work arbitrarily. The Mittelanlter metal sub-section here will go and be replaced by a mention.

I am aware that this discussion is now getting longer than the page. On the positive side, ideas are much clearer and I genuinely mean it when I say it will be a much better article for all this.--Sabrebd (talk) 17:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Note: it has been agreed by consensus to make this page a disambiguation with links to Medieval folk rock, Mittelalter metal and neo-medieval music.--Sabrebd (talk) 13:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)