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Archive 1

Fact check needed

This article states that Nelspruit was founded in 1905, but also that it served as a temporary capital during the Boer War. Since the Second Boer War ended in 1902, one of these two statements is wrong, but I cannot tell which one. --Russ Blau (talk) 17:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

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Unsourced comment

On April 23, 2006, User:Golf 5 added to the bottom of the article. It included information that KaNyamazane was the nearest township, and the following statement:

"In 1999 president Thabo Mbeki identified this town as a crime flashpoint that raised national concern."

It was unsourced and I've been unable to find any info. I'm moving it here to the talk page pending verification. I'll put a not on Golf 5' talk page. —ERcheck @ 12:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: Fact check needed

I found this:

Nelspruit, on the Crocodile River, traces its beginnings to the late 1880s when the farm on which the town was to develop was rented from the Transvaal government by (Sir) Percy Fitzpatrick, the author of the famous canine tale Jock of the Bushveld. The farm was called Cascades, for what are now more commonly known as the Crocodile Falls, 5 km from the town. But the town itself can be said to have been born when President Paul Kruger's railway from Komatipoort and Delagoa (Maputo) Bay reached these parts in 1891. A station named Nelspruit was built on land owned by the Nel brothers, Gert, Andries and Louis, who for many years had migrated to the Lowveld each winter to find grazing for their cattle.

In August and September 1900, during the Anglo-Boer War, Nelspruit was the temporary seat of the fugitive Transvaal government retreating from Pretoria. The village was proclaimed a town in 1905. Municipal status was granted in 1940.

Source: about-south-africa.com

Maybe this gives some clarity?!

163.195.208.74 10:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Does this really mean what it says?

Kruger Mpumalanga is used for scheduled flights to Johannesburg and, less frequently, to Cape Town and other cities. It is also home to the Government Research Institute for Citrus and Subtropical Fruits, and the Lowveld Botanical Gardens.

Is the airport really the home of the research institute and the botanical gardens? Corvus cornix 23:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Map

It seems that the location of Nelspruit on the geography map is incorrect, at present the city is shown to be in Mozambique,PurpleDuke 08:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Displays correctly on my screen, just north of Swaziland and west of Mozambique --NJR_ZA (talk) 09:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


Nelspruit → Mbombela — Name of town was officially changed on 2009-09-02. — "Approved Names 2000 - Present". Department of Arts and Culture (South Africa). Retrieved 30 January 2010. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help), Row 505 in spreadsheet, you might need to rename the downloaded file to Approvednames.xls after downloding. —NJR_ZA (talk) 14:00, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Support. In the interest of accuracy. Park3r (talk) 18:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Further complications to the name change

According to News24, "Nelspruit kept for 2010":

Mpumalanga’s capital has changed its name from Nelspruit to Mbombela but will retain its old name for the 2010 World Cup, the city's 2010 marketing manager said on Tuesday. “Speaking football the city will be referred to as Nelspruit and the municipality as Mbombela,” said Ronnie Moyo.

It's not really clear whether that means that the name change as a whole has been postponed until post-World Cup, or if "Nelspruit" will be used only for the purposes of the World Cup. Anyone up there who can tell us what the road signs say? - htonl (talk) 18:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Although I agree (now disagree 12 April) the page should be moved to Mbombela, the name Nelspruit should be used throughout the article because it is still by far more common, more used and more well known. For example I wouldn't be suprised if signs still had Nelspruit. Bezuidenhout (talk) 09:42, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I also found a very interresting link here where it states that the inhabitants have three years to change everything to 'Mbombela', surely this can apple to wikipedia to some extent? Bezuidenhout (talk) 21:59, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
It is probably for the world cup only, because of agreements with FIFA. Of course, for the World Cup, Pretoria will be called "Pretoria/Tshwane", but try using that reasoning on the Pretoria page, and see what happens.. Park3r (talk) 09:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I've recently started moving Limpopo towns to their new name on Afrikaans wikipedia, but I strongly reccomend that this name be reverted to Nelspruit untill it is certain that Mbombela will be used instead. I am sure that the World Cup will only increase the usage of Nelspruit, the government really didn't think it through when they renamed Nelspruit? I feel uncomfortable with using a name of a town, because I assure you some people will search up about Nelspruit on wikipedia during the world cup and will be confused to find the article on Mbombela? Can we please revert it and concentrate on other towns such as in the Limpopo or Eastern Cape first? The project of new namers there isn't even yet complete. Bezuidenhout (talk) 10:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Signs

Google street view came out today for South Africa and at looking on motorways such as the N4 (which leads to Nelspruit) all signs say Nelspruit, with none saying Mbombela (unless indicating the stadium). Bezuidenhout (talk) 07:25, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Move

I propose moving the article back to Nelspruit simply because this is unpracticle. Nelspruit will be the name for the world cup however after the world cup is finished I would wish to continue the discussion and then move back. The current name is simply too confusing for people. Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

What's the point in moving it back, only to revert that move back in four months time. Nelspruit is already a redirect to Mbombela, so it's not likely that anyone is going to have trouble finding the article. The name change is explained on the article page, so they're not likely to be confused either. Skinsmoke (talk) 23:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Still havn't seen any kind of reference to the city as 'Mbombela'. This is starting to irritate me because NOTHING so far except one VIP saying 'it's Mbombela' has shown that the city is Mbombela. A recent accident near Nelspruit went to British news and guess what? The BBC calls it Nelpsruit (10th June 2010)!! Yahoo calls it.. yep you guessed it: Nelspruit (9th June 2010). This is like referring to Topeka as Google for the period of time it was named Google. Who knows? Mbombela may become another Louis Trichard or Vaalwater, where the name reverts? NY Times calls it Nelspruit (8th June 2010). And you might be asking well you havn't shown the reference to any 'Mbombelas'. Well that's because people only associate Mbombela as the stadium, or municipality. Knowing this I searched 'City of Mbombela' and all that came up was Mbombela Stadium and Municip. I even got articles like these. Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:40, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Furthermore I looked on Nelspruit (Mbombela)'s official homepage (http://www.mbombela.gov.za/) and even there (incl. stories from 11 June) they still use Nelspruit for the city and ONLY refer to Mbombela as the stadium or municip. which is why the homepage is located at that name. Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:16, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Funny how this got moved before anyone actually used the new name, but the article on Kyiv is still using it's ancient name. I think WP:COMMONNAME should be applied more consistently, or it gets confusing as hell. 212.192.253.132 (talk) 13:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree with WP:COMMONNAME, I am going to move the page unless someone will care to discuss. Bezuidenhout (talk) 13:59, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Without expressing an opinion on the merits of one name or the other: the way you have moved the article by cutting and pasting the content is not acceptable. As Help:Moving a page says, in bold nogal, "Do not move or rename a page by copying/pasting its content". If you want to move the page, you need to make a request according to the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves. I am going to revert your cut-and-paste move, but please do start such a discussion if you want to. - htonl (talk) 14:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry but over a week ago I brought up the conversation again and no one replied or even cared to discuss. I was sick of being ignored. But I can say on your behalf that I should have created a 'move' template, which I will do now. Bezuidenhout (talk) 18:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Pronounciation

Can someone maybe find or create one of those pronounciation box things such as [paˈʀi] for Paris? Can we make them for Nelspruit and Mbombela, because I have been hearing English people calling it 'Nelsprit'. Bezuidenhout (talk) 09:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I think "pronounced /ˈnɛl.sprɛit/" would be an accurate reflection of how English-speaking South Africans say "Nelspruit". "Mbombela" I'm having more trouble with, though. - htonl (talk) 10:11, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
How exactly do you pronounce it? Do you say as 'Umbombela?' such as in Mthatha (Umtata)? And is it Mbom'bela, M'bomela? Bezuidenhout (talk) 10:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, the way I pronounce it - and this may not reflect general use - is with a sort of "swallowed hint of a u" at the beginning. Syllable-wise, it's "m-BOM-be-la". So I guess it's something like "pronounced /m'bɒm.bɛə.lʌ/". But, for all I know, that could be a horrible mangling of IPA that a linguist would want to smack me for. - htonl (talk) 12:08, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Requested Move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move to Nelspruit. Fences&Windows 23:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Mbombela → Nelspruit — - WP:COMMONNAME. Bezuidenhout (talk) 18:32, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

  • Support - Ja, given the evidence you've presented above (under the "Move" heading) it seems like the common name is still "Nelspruit", with that name being used even by the Mbombela Local Municipality itself. It seems very likely, though, that the situation will change at some point in the future (as it did with Polokwane). - htonl (talk) 18:51, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
    • Although, I would like someone who lives there to tell us if they've started changing the road signs or not - that's a pretty good indicator of what name the government is currently using. I believe they've just opened the new N4 northern bypass, so there's probably some new signage going up. - htonl (talk) 19:04, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
    • I agree with everyone you're saying there, every word. But that 'Polokwane' moment when the ANC had their conference/meeting there hasn't quite come yet, and the world cup is only stenghtening the usage. With the sign, I doubt they'll have signs for the bypass saying 'Mbombela' and then for other signs saying 'Nelspruit'. I know this is the new South Africa, but they're not that stupid. Bezuidenhout (talk) 19:44, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
      • Lastly, please don't judge me just because I'm Afrikaans, I did take into consideration other name changes, and they have all changed their signs (except Butterworth) and even moved towns to their new names such as Duiwelskloof and Naboomspruit. Bezuidenhout (talk) 19:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Polokwane and Bela-Bela have been moved back to their new names because WP:COMMONNAME as they are now definitley now used. Meanwhile with the Magaung/Tshwane world cup names, when commentators, weather and news now appears (that is in England) about it they always refer to them by Pretoria, Bloemfontein, and NELSPRUIT. I havn't heard anyone saying 'the weather at the game in Mbombla/Manguang/Tshwane is going to be..' etc. I will support a move when there is proof that Mbombela is actually being used by people (including the Mbombela municipality council, which has yet to happen!). Bezuidenhout (talk) 10:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Whatever th media say in England, in South Africa, while the pay channel SuperSport uses "Pretoria" for the World Cup, SABC sport broadcasts, (viewed by the majority of South Africans), use the term "Tshwane". You may want to avoid opening that can of worms. 196.213.166.10 (talk) 15:36, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
The name Mbombela is definitely already used in South Africa, as on etv weather reports. Park3r (talk) 13:51, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Interessting, can you maybe get like a footage or some other reference. However, does it outweigh those saying 'Nelspruit'? What do they say on TV in ZA? Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
    • (edit conflict) It's not just about the World Cup, though. WP:COMMONNAME prescribes that "Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article." The fact that the government has proclaimed a change of name for a town doesn't mean that the actual usage in English will change to the new name instantly. No doubt, over time, the common usage in English will change (as it has done for Polokwane and Bela-Bela), but as far as I can see it hasn't done so yet. - htonl (talk) 10:41, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Lastly, this is directed at Park3r, it seems all you care about is 'official' names, so why don't you go move Derry to Londonderry and do us a favour? Bezuidenhout (talk) 10:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Er, perhaps because the official name is Derry? Duh! Skinsmoke (talk) 04:24, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Actually, please visit the page, the official name of the city in Northern Ireland is still Londonderry. Derry is the official name in Republic of Ireland. Bezuidenhout (talk) 09:07, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I see now. You just don't understand the complexities of the British local government system (and who could blame you?). The city is officially the local government area which, having a nationalist majority, officially changed to Derry. The county, which doesn't officially exist anymore, is referred to on Wikipedia as County Londonderry, which was a deal to stop edit warring. Nationalists refer to it as County Derry. The settlement, often incorrectly referred to as a city, is officially called Londonderry, which Derry City Council are in the process of seeking authority to change, due to the existence of a royal charter. Unionists continue to refer to the settlement as Londonderry. It really wasn't a very good example to use! Skinsmoke (talk) 22:01, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
It gets worse, though; unionists will say that the Royal Charter calls it Londonderry, and only the Queen and/or the Privy Council can change its name. - htonl (talk) 22:08, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
The Afrikaner interest group that opposed the name change didn't even bother appearing at meetings to discuss the change(see sources), so it does not appear to be be a contentious renaming. As soon as the World Cup ends, I expect roads signs etc to rapidly change (if they haven't already).Park3r (talk) 13:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Hang on Park3r.. didn't bother appearing at meetings to discuss the change, so are you saying we don't have lives, what if we genuinly forgot, I forgot to add Bela-Bela to my watchlist and completely forgot about that disucssion due to exams. And we are not 'Afrikaner interest groups'. On Afrikaans wikipedia I moved almost all cities to their new names (I'm almost done, just Potgieter and Nyls. to go), at the time Polokwane seemed more common and there was little evidence to show whether it was in usage. Obviously now it is clear Polokwane is used more. Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
I was referring to the initial lack of opposition during the renaming process in real life, not the renaming on Wikipedia. Park3r (talk) 15:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Are you referring to the VF+? Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:11, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment You don't half get yourselves in a mess with renaming in South Africa! Mind you, with some of the bizarre names chosen for the municipalities, I'm not surprised! It does indeed appear that the municipality's website is still referring to the settlement as Nelspruit. Mind you, not much of a website, is it? As national varieties of English come into play here, what name is the South African press using? Skinsmoke (talk) 04:37, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
A brief survey of the major South African English-language media outlets:
I tried to avoid articles directly about the World Cup games or arrangements. - htonl (talk) 06:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

The countdown to the World Cup has reached the highest gear and an atmosphere of excitement is electric around Nelspruit and Mbombela as a whole.

With over 1000 volunteers the city of Mbombela and it’s residents are ready to participate and contribute to the success of this World Cup. Volunteers with serve across the operational spectrum and this include Media, Transport, Marketing and Communications operations. The enthusiasm and participation from the volunteers is remarkable. Volunteers are an essential element in Nelspruit successfully hosting . Bezuidenhout (talk) 10:40, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

City vs Town vs Local Municipality

Many of the Limpopo town articles are in an awkward state where there are two separate articles for the old town or city, and then a new article for the newly created local municipality. In my mind, during apartheid the town or city was defined only by the white areas and the non-white townships were excluded. Today, the old town/townships pattern is being redefined into local municipalities. If you check the definition of municipality, it is just another word for town or city. (Not to be confused with a district municipality, which is an administrative division of a province.

A local municipality creates a since entity out of the previously disparate town and townships, giving them a single mayor, city council and services. I'm looking for a pattern that we can apply to these municipalities.

  • Create a single article, like Johannesburg. "Johannesburg includes Soweto, which was a separate city from the late 1970s until the 1990s."
  • Create 2 articles. A historical article on Nelspruit, and a current article on Mbombela. "Nelspruit was a town in South Africa until 2000, after which it was incorporated into Mbombela"

My concern over the current article splits is that you end up with a lot of unreferenced and undefined facts from memory. There's no census data, no city website. These "cities" have no mayor, no council - they simply do not exist in that sense anymore. We don't see anyone maintaining an article on Johannesburg (excluding Soweto, Lenasia and Diepsloot), why do we have this situation here?

As an aside, I've posted this on Mbombela because there is current discussion here. Don't let the fact that Mbombela is in a temporary state of name-flux because of the World Cup distract from the issue at hand. I'm talking about all the towns where the name change has been in place for years, but two articles are still being maintained:

--HiltonLange (talk) 19:27, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

How can Nelspruit be renamed to Mbombela in 2009 when it was the city of Mbombela after the municipality reshuffle. I would like some more reference for whether city and municipality have actually become the same thing. I still doubt someone from Seshego says 'I live in Polokwane'. Bezuidenhout (talk) 20:10, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Some of these municps. take up large amounts of land. Are you saying someone living on a farm in these munic. can state they 'live in the city of Polokwane'? Bezuidenhout (talk) 20:13, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
There's been a lot of discussion of this in the past, and a lot of work has gone into creating articles about municipalities. It's quite clear that in the South African context, municipalities do not have a one-to-one correspondence with towns. For example, look at the Stellenbosch Local Municipality, which includes the towns of Stellenbosch, Franschhoek and Pniel. I defy anyone to claim that Franschhoek is consequentially now part of Stellenbosch! Some municipalities do bear the name of the largest town, but that doesn't make them the same thing.
I do agree that in the case of the metropolitan municipalities it's a bit more complicated, but even there I would say that, for example, Uitenhage is not now part of Port Elizabeth, just because they share a municipality. Incidentally, also, the government does recognise that populated places are a distinct category from municipalities, evidenced by the fact that (as Bezuidenhout pointed out) the name Nelspruit only officially changed to Mbombela this year, whereas the municipality has been called that for several years. The SAGNS database (which is unfortunately offline at the moment) does distinguish between municipalities and the populated places that they contain.
As to the problem of statistics, well, Stats SA does actually publish census statistics for units smaller than a municipality, just not on the internet: they have a hierarchy of "Main Places" (cities & towns) and "Sub Places" (suburbs, townships, etc.). I have the database; if anyone wants, I can send them extracts of the data for particular areas. By way of example, on the article for Port Elizabeth I recently included the statistics for both what the Census defines as "Main Place P.E." and the metropolitan area. - htonl (talk) 21:20, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, perhaps we should move this discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject South Africa? - htonl (talk) 21:27, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Also, I'd like to add that I do agree with your point, Hilton, that city limits were drawn to exclude the non-white areas, and it also irritates me that the census still draws the geography in that way. So I'd have absolutely no objection to making sure that articles on cities and towns are clear on including the surrounding townships. But merging municipality articles with city/town articles will create a lot of confusion in many cases, because municipalities and cities are not coterminous, in either general or official usage. - htonl (talk) 21:40, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree with you. Furthermore, municipal boundaries change quite often (see current proposals to transfer Midrand from the City of Johannesburg Metropolitan Municipality, to the City of Tshwane Metropolitan Municipality). Park3r (talk) 08:00, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Photos

So, to talk about something other than the name for a change: does anyone have a better photo for the infobox? Or, is there anyone in the area who can take one for us? The current photo is OK but it doesn't really show much of anything. I'll do some Flickr searching later to see if there's anything suitable (and suitably licensed) but I thoughd I'd ask here as well. - htonl (talk) 15:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Mbombela or Mbombela City?

Which is the proper official name? I found a few old news reports mentioning this confusing issue but could not find anything reporting a definitive resolution of the matter. The problem stems from the fact that the local municipality and the place have the same name but do not relate to the exact same piece of land. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Requested move subsequent to court ruling

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved, per the discussion below; Wikipedia titling is based on common names, not official names. It may be best to revisit this when there is evidence of a shift in common usage. Dekimasuよ! 01:55, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Nelspruit → Mbombela – Previous page moves were premature pending the conclusion of a court case regarding the official name of this city. The case is now decided, in favour of the name Mbombela. Furthermore, the organization which contested the name change and brought the suit have said they intend to abide by the court's decision, so the name is no longer in dispute. This article should reflect the official name, which is now Mbombela. Sources: [10], [11]. Ivanvector (talk) 18:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment - Although I'm much more open to the idea of moving the article, I just don't feel like it's time. Of course official names are important but it's not that simple. A number of articles on wikipedia are not at their official names (geographic places) and in the case of Nelspruit, the former name is still in much more common usage. The only reason I'm currently at neutral rather than oppose is that I feel, as someone who doesn't live in SA anymore, that I don't have that much of a say on the common usage in reality. Of course it saddens me that such a name change has happened but this is information and not opinion so maybe we should bite the bullet and move it? I feel like Mbombela is unfortunately here to stay. Bezuidenhout (talk) 03:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 18 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved. Seems high time to grant this request, because it doesn't really take much time to find solid evidence. There is Ivanvector's link from a previous RM, as well as this news search link easily discovered. So more than just the official name since 2009, upheld by the Pretoria High Court ruling in 2014, "Mbombela" has become the common name of this South African city. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  18:34, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Nelspruit → Mbombela – Nelspruit was renamed in 2009. Previous move requests have been denied due to Mbombela not being in common usage, but the new name is now widely used. Greenman (talk) 16:12, 18 July 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 17:05, 25 July 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 20:07, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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