Talk:Maya Angelou/Archive 1

Updates from Maya Herself

I just got to listen to Dr. Angelou this evening the University of Missouri and noted some differences about what she says about herself and what Wikipedia says. [some stuff edited out 5/5/07] She said she either she has 60 doctorates or at least 60 (sorry, cannot recall exactly which). This seems quite noteworthy. Thank you to whoever can help with these updates! Karen 03:10, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Karen ScienceGirl05

60 doctorates? Forgive me, but you clearly heard incorrectly. A doctorate takes 2 years minimum to complete, not to mention the time required to learn the background information required to actually get accepted to the graduate program. 60 Doctorates, therefore would require more studying than she would have been able to complete. 6 doctorates seems more plausable, but it still seems odd for someone who has been as public a figure as Dr. Angelou. Of course, a few universities may have given her "honorary" degrees, so having 6 Doctorates is certainly plausible, but 60 is absolutely ridiculous. Edit: forgot signature CKnapp 15:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not hear incorrectly. With a quick internet search, I was able to find an article from Jet magazine that cites her 60 honorary doctorates. I guess I should have specified that they were honorary doctorates, but I figured that was implied. Here is the article if you still don't believe me http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_25_110/ai_n17134178. Please do not be so quick to dismiss information just because it seems unlikely.  :) Karen 23:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

There's a very big difference between a doctorate and an honorary doctorate.--Simul8 15:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

indeed, there is a difference. However, it is still very much worth noting that she has received 60 Honorary Doctorates. And no, even with the context of a large number, doctorate does not imply honorary doctorate. CKnapp 18:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

She is not a doctor. She does not have a Ph.D. or an M.D. Mercer123 (talk) 04:35, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Mercer, did you forget? All references to "Dr. Angelou" was removed from this article, as per the discussion here, under the "Honorifics" section. Be respectful, kid! ;) --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Greek?

Her surname seems Greek to me. is she married to a Greek man? No was she married to a Greek man. Actually, her first husband WAS a Greek man named Tosh Angelos. Optim 22:06, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

actually its of greek cypriot (from the Republic of Cyprus, an island off the coast) origin. she shares my surname exactly. she married a sailor named "Angelos". she may have changed the spelling to be more phonectically pleasing. king sarah 11:39, 16 jan 2007 (UTC)

May I ask what do you mean by "she may have changed the spelling to be more phonetically pleasing?" Greek surnames for women have the form that generally derives from the genitive case of their husbands' name (assuming they choose to adopt their husband's name). The wife of a man called "Angelos" would be naturally called "Angelou"--nothing to do with making a name sounding more pleasing. It's not different from the wife of a Russian man called "Gorbachev" which becomes "Gorbacheva". In an english speaking country such a wife would probably not inflect her name as grammatically required, as it would confuse native speakers who are not familiar with inflection. However, not doing so would sound weird in Greek (for most surnames but not all). And one more thing: If Tosh Angelos he were born in Cyprus he would most likely be called "Angelou" in the first place (Also not sure what the origin of "Tosh" is. Probably an uncommon diminutive of a name ending in "-tos", such as "Christos," appended with "h" to account for strong "s" sound of Greek Cypriots). I have never heard "Angelos" used as surname in this form and it would definitely be uncommon in cyprus, where last names tend to be in genitive case even for men. Was he born in the USA or did he alter his name upon immigration to make it easier for locals? In any case, I do not believe the "phonetically pleasing" explanation. --Ilias 72.225.230.35 19:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Poet Laureate

Angelou is often referred to as being a U.S. Poet Laureate. I was going to add this to the article, but I can't find any citations, and she isn't on the Library of Congress list. Shoehorn 22:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Believe it or not, whether she is referred to this way or not, I think most people would be surprised to find she has never been a Poet Laureate of the U. S. An act of congress changed the title to Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry to the Library of Congress. At that article, you can find the entire list, but unfortunately Maya Angelou has yet to receive the honor.--65.16.61.35 21:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

text dump from Maya Angelou

Maya Angelou was born on April 4, 1928, with the name Marguerite Johnson in St. Louis Missouri. She got the name Maya from her brother, Bailey. He called her Mya sister, my, and then Maya. Since her brother was her favorite person, she kept the name. She and Bailey moved to Arkansas with their grandmother when Maya was three and Bailey was four. They experienced hatred from white people in the Segrated South. They spent a lot of time in Church to escape from the hate and segregation. In the first few years of living with ....their grandma, Maya thought that her parents were dead. Maya soon found out differently when their parents sent them Christmas presents from California. Maya soon began to wonder why their parents had sent them to Stamps, Arkansas. When Maya was seven, her father came to Stamps to take the children back to California. To Maya and Bailey's surprise, their father was actually taking them to Missouri, where their mother now lived. Their father left them in Missouri and returned to California alone. Maya and her brother, Bailey, made ice cream by puring milk and sugar on snow. Maya was raped by her mother's boyfriend, a man named Mr. Freeman, while living with her mother. "What he did to me, and what I alllowed, must have been bad if already God let me hurt so much." So In 1936, Maya was traumatized by the sexual assault when she was only eight years old. She refused to speak to anyone but Bailey. Maya was sent back to live with her grandmother in Stamps, Arkansas with Bailey. In 1939, Maya Angelou began talking after nearly four years of silence. Maya moved to San Francisco with Bailey to live with their mother and started high school there.

Roots

Other than her website, there is no mention of this emmy anywhere. What gives? See: http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Awards/Emmy_Awards/1977. I have now confirmed that she did not receive a nomination. Check the official archive of nominations at http://www.emmys.tv/awards/awardsearch.php. A search under 1977 demonstrates conclusively that she was not nominated for an Emmy. All references to the Emmy nomination need to be removed and not replaced to the page. This also shows a problem with her "official" bio on her webpage. It is not reliable. She seems to have a problem with the facts. For the record, the following individuals were nominated for best supporting actress in 1977 for Roots:

Roots - ABC - Sandy Duncan Roots - ABC - Cicely Tyson Roots - ABC - Olivia Cole

Note, no Maya Angelou. Mercer123 (talk) 04:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, okay. It's obvious that your sources are better than mine. My source was reliable (the Lupton book), but it's obvious that it was mistaken. As far as Angelou having a problem with the facts, I think that's going a little too far. I suspect that the inaccuracy was due to an over-zealous webpage creator. I quote myself, in a recent edit of this very article: "The details of Angelou's life, although described in her six autobiographies and in numerous interviews, speeches, and articles, tend to be inconsistent. Her biographer, Mary Jane Lupton, explains that when Angelou speaks about her life, she does so eloquently but informally and "with no time chart in front of her". I suspect that if we were to ask you (or anyone else) about the details of your life, you'd get some details wrong, too, and she's pushing on 80, so she has more to remember. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 17:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I am simply pointing out the fact that her website is not a reliable source. What bothers me about the Roots issue is that the nomination is quoted by Oprah on her XM site as if it were a fact. Let's be responsible for the end of this issue. She was not nomintated. She may speak eloquently about her life, but she does so inaccurately. Mercer123 (talk) 02:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

This very thing has already been discussed on this talk page; see the "Stop deleting honorary degrees, when it's clear that you're not even TRYING to 'verify' them" section. At the time, I came down on your side, regarding Angelou's awards. I was accused of not trusting an icon, so I won't accuse you of the same. (Thankfully, the strongest voice is now blocked, for good reasons.) My "opposition" stated that Angelou is a highly respected individual, so using her as a source is reliable, and because consensus agreed, I changed my position and created another article. I think in the creation/improvement of this bio, we're running into the same "problem" that many of her biographers face--conflicting information. Mary Jane Lupton faced the same thing. Just today, another editor changed an inaccuracy about the race of Angelou's childhood friend Mrs. Flowers. Not having Caged Bird in front of me, I googled it and found at least one source (probably the one the original editor used) that stated that Flowers was white.

I don't believe, though, that the inaccuracies about the details of Angelou's life is a part of some nefarious plot. Lupton seems to have come to the same conclusion. I don't know why Angelou says that she was nominated with an Emmy; I'll ask her the next time I see her. (I'm kidding!) I agree that we need to ensure the accuracy of this article, though, and as the editor whose worked the most recently on improving it, I've tried to be as accurate as possible. If she wasn't nominated for an Emmy, it shouldn't go here. As long as I have anything to do with it, it won't. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 05:37, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

If she won an Emmy for Roots, why doesn't the article on Roots mention her? JMcC 11:16, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. An Emmy nomination is not listed at http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0029723/awards or http://emmys.org/awards/awardsearch.php. --67.78.27.162 22:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey Itatagi Lush and the Nanch were here! This is a cool website. It really helped when I was doing a report on Maya Angelou.

"Maya Angelou, Extraordinary Human Being," Internet Exploerer, October 27, 2005.http://littlerock.about.com/cs/musicbooks/a/maya angelou.htm

Kallen, Stuart. Maya Angelou, I have a Dream. Minneapolis Minnesota: Abdo Consulting Group Inc., 1993.

Maya Angelou. 1997. Gale. Access Date: October 28, 2005. www.galegroup.com/free_resources/bhm/bio/angelou_m.htm

"Maya Angelou," Internet Explorer, October 27, 2005. www.mayaangelou.com

Shapiro, Miles. Maya Angelou. Philadelphia: Chelsea House Publishers, 1994.

Lisandrelli, Elaine. Maya Angelou: More than a Poet. Springfield, New Jersey: Enslow Publishers Inc., 1996.

Consistant Life

Maya Angelou is a member of this pro-life group which is against abortion, the death penalty and euthanasia. Dwain

I really enjoy reading Maya Angelou's poem and she is insprirational (Sierra B.)

"La Vie Boheme" - Rent

She is mentioned in the song "La Vie Boheme" from the Rock-Opera Rent.

Characters Mimi and Angel sing:

To hand-crafted beers made in local breweries

To yoga, to yogurt, to rice and beans and cheese

To leather, to dildos, to curry vindaloo

To huevos rancheros and Maya Angelou

Maya Angelou is not dead

Why does it say she died in 2002? According to all the sources I checked--including her own website--she is definitely alive. She's in Medea's Family Reunion which is due to be released in 2006. And how could she have given a commencement address in 2005?

I should hope she's still alive, she's supposed to be lecturing at my school next week. -Fadookie ^Talk 09:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The title's On the Pulse of Morning

Not The Rock Speaks Out. Maya angelou lived in Stamps when she lived with whom she called "momma" right?

removal of quote

I removed the discussion posting titled "A quote to live by" because it was not appropriate for the discussion section of a Wikipedia article. The discussion page is, according Wikipedia's guidelines, designed to "provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page." An homage to the biographical stub's subject is not appropriate material for Wikipedia, whether the talk pages or the articles themselves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.232.207.175 (talk) 04:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

I am going to remove "the demon spawn" part of the biographical information" WTF is that about Dkceaser 22:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)dkceaser

References

Poetlister removed the {{verify}} and {{unreferenced}} tags, claiming "there's plenty of references". The current version has a whopping two in-text citations and no "References" section. I added the {{citations missing}} tag. --Jtalledo (talk) 23:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

well i did not see anthing about her dieying in 2002 so you need to check that again .but then i could be wrong. but what ever

I personlly think she went throught a whole heck of a lot

singing career???

Ms. Angelou also had a singing career, though the extent of it I don't know. I know she released the record Miss Calypso through the label Scamp in 1957; but I don't know what else, if anything. I'd write the section myself, but I don't know the history and am not in the mood to search it out right now. <spetz>.72.76.248.151 19:49, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

age

The info box states Angelou was born in 1927 and is 79 years of age. This is not so. She by all accounts was born in 1928 and since her birthday has not yet arrived this year, this would make her 78 years old. 03:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Protection?

Why is the article page semi-protected? Shouldn't there be a justification on this page? Gront 02:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

There is an awful lot of vandalism here - see the edit history. But if you think the protection should be removed, you can request that.--Poetlister 09:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

she also has a daughter named evetta hoyett. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.239.194 (talk) 17:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

QUESTION???????

When did maya make her first poem?

Maya's House

This isn't about the article, but I've seen her house in Winston-Salem. It's big, but not mansion sized. And everything, and I mean everything, on the outside of her house is painted bright yellow. Her walls, her door, her shutters, the fence. It might even glow in the dark (haven't checked yet) FinalWish 03:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Civil Rights "Activist"?

"...important figure in the American Civil Rights Movement..." What is the basis for this statement. Wikipedia itself delimits the Civil Rights movement as ending in 1968. During much of that time, Ms. Angelou lived in Africa. Any contribution she made earlier seems insignificant compared to Dr. King, Medgar Evers, etc. Srosenbach 21:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Please see the latest edits. She was close with people in the civil rights movement in New York int he 1950s-60s, a friend of Malcolm X and was planning to start an organization with him when she returned to America in 1964. She later was working for/with Martin Luther King until he was shot. I don't know if that makes her an "activist" or just a team member but she was thick with the Civil Rights Movement. Wikidemo 03:45, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

maya angelou

Maya Angelou was born Marguerite Ann Johnson in St. Louis, Missouri, on April 4, 1928. In 1931, when she was three years old, her parents divorced and she and her 4-year old brother, Bailey, were sent alone, by train, to live with their grandmother in Stamps, Arkansas. While living with her grandmother, Angelou participated in a wide variety of dance classes including tap, jazz, foxtrot, and salsa.

After four years in Stamps, the children returned to their mother's care in California. At age eight, Angelou confessed that her mother's boyfriend, Mr. Freemen, had sexually abused her, and Angelou's uncles beat the man to death. Horrified by the outcome, she became mute, believing, as she has stated, that "the power of [her] words led to someone's death." She remained nearly mute for five years, at which point her mother sent the children to live with their grandmother once again. Angelou credits a close friend in Stamps, Mrs. Flowers, for helping her "re-find her voice."

She began to speak again at age 13 and returned to live with her family. She graduated 8th grade with honors at the Lafayette Country Training School. In 1940, while spending the summer with her father in the Los Angeles area, Angelou was assaulted by her father's live-in girlfriend, which led to her running away from home and spending a month as a resident of a junkyard that housed other homeless children. She finally called her mother and was sent a ticket back home to San Francisco, but her month of homelessness had a profound effect on her way of looking at the world. As she says in p. 254 of Caged Bird, "After a month my thinking processes had so changed that I was hardly recognizable to myself. The unquestioning acceptance of my peers had dislodged the familiar insecurity...After hunting down unbroken bottles and selling them with a white girl from Missouri, a Mexican girl from Los Angeles and a Black girl from Oklahoma, I was never again to sense myself so solidly outside the pale of the human race. The lack of criticism evidenced by our ad hoc community influenced me, and set a tone of tolerance in my life."

Angelou became pregnant at the age of 16 and, one week after graduating from San Francisco's Mission High School, gave birth to her son, Guy Raphael Johnson, who also became a poet. To support herself, she sang, with an affected Caribbean accent, at Enrico Banducci's famed Purple Onion San Francisco nightclub. During this phase of her career she released a record album on the Liberty Record label entitled "Miss Calypso." It has since become a highly sought-after collectible among fans of record albums by celebrities. During one of her first bouts of activism, Angelou became the first African-American hired on the San Francisco streetcars.[3]

[edit] Adulthood Angelou married Greek sailor Tosh Angelos in 1952. She adopted the Angelou, a modified version of her husband's, as a stage name for her nightclub performances. She toured Europe as an opera singer in 1954-1955, studied dance with Martha Graham, danced with Alvin Ailey, and recorded a calypso album in 1957. She moved to New York City in the late 1950s, where she acted in off Broadway productions and met artists and writers active in the Civil Rights Movement. She fell in love with Vusumi Make, a South African Civil Rights leader, and moved with him and her son to Cairo, Egypt, where she edited The Arab Observer. They later moved to Ghana, where she taught music and drama, and continued to write. [4] In her travels Angelou learned the French, Spanish, Italian, Arabic and Ghanian Fante languages.

Angelou met and befriended Malcolm X in Ghana, returning to America in 1964 to help him build a new organization. Upon Malcolm X's assassination shortly thereafter, she became involved in Martin Luther King's Southern Christian Leadership conefrence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.31.43.62 (talk) 02:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Expansion

I've expanded the bio section of this article, since it didn't include Angelou's later life and career. Using her webpage as a major source, I also expanded the Works section and added "Honors and Awards." I intend to check on other sources as time allows. The goal, of course, is that this article receive a higher rate.

One statement I wasn't able to verify, though, was Angelou's speaking rate. The most recent number quoted was from the NY Times article from 1993. Is she even on the lecture circuit anymore? If anyone can verify that for me, that'd be great. --Figureskatingfan 22:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I finally found a source about this, so I added the info. Thanks the gods for Google alerts! ;) --Figureskatingfan (talk) 15:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

External links section

I edited this section by cutting unnecessary links (more bio information, redundant info, links I folded into the content of the article). I tried to follow the Wikipedia:External links guideline. I also added the YouTube video. The end result was that this section is significantly smaller and easier to manage. --Figureskatingfan 23:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Honors and Awards

I've been going through this section, looking for references to back up the list, which I cut and paste from Ms. Angelou's webpage. The issue it brings up for me is that enough for this bio article? I need to find someone who can answer the question for me. I've found some minor contradictions to the sources (trying to make them as reliable as possible, of course); for example, Ms. Angelou's webpage states that she received the Christopher Award in 1998, but the news article I found (published the week after the award was given), states that it happened in 1999. I followed the news article. This wasn't the only example I found.

My question is, and it's something I intend to research, is should I delete the items I couldn't find any reference to, or rely upon the webpage? --Figureskatingfan 19:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've got an answer to my question. I asked it to User:Wizardman on his talk page. (And he got back to me quick!) Here's his answer, from my talk page:

For a bio article, it's typically best to shy away from the subject's website. Although it can certainly be an external link, there's always the possibility of incorrect information or bias, which is much less likely to be found in a reliable, published source. Your second question's a little more difficult, since if it's important it will certainly be able to be verified, but if there's no way you can and it's likely to be challenged when you get it towards FA, then it's probably better to remove the information. Hope this information helped. Wizardman 19:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

So I'm following Wizardman's advice and deleting anything I couldn't verify. --Figureskatingfan 19:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletions

I deleted everything I had added to this talk page that was unsubstantiated, after finding the following on the Wikipedia:Citing sources guideline page.

When adding material to the biography of a living person

Biographies of living persons should be sourced with particular care, for legal and ethical reasons. All contentious material about living persons must cite a reliable source. Do not wait for another editor to request a source. If you find unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about a living person — whether in an article or on a talk page — remove it immediately! Do not leave it in the article and ask for a source. Do not move it to the talk page. This applies whether the material is in a biography or any other article.

Angelou appeared in Madea's Family Reunion, Poetic Justice, and That's So Raven, but she never wrote those screenplays. can someone change those. I am not sure about the other tv&film credits. --Unitariansangha (talk) 12:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

This article is heavily vandalized. In the last few days (esp. 10/15), it was so bad, it was almost out of control. And the type of vandalism is shocking, full of hate and racism, the very things Dr. Angelou stands against. IMO, it perpetuates her experience with racism and her history of sexual abuse and rape. I shudder when I think about her reading some of those comments. As a result, I'd like to get this article at least semi-protected, as it was in April 2007. --Figureskatingfan 18:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

If there aren't any admins on this page, just ask the question and you'll probably find someone on an administrator notice board, I think WP:AN. I see it's been done. Thanks, User:Alison! Wikidemo 08:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Stop deleting honorary degrees, when it's clear that you're not even TRYING to "verify" them

A simple Google search revealed confirmation of both degrees that you have deleted. Stop deleting them, or you will be reported as a vandal. K. Scott Bailey 05:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on you, not us. If content is not cited, you're allowed to remove it. WP:CITE them, and don't forget to use reliable, verifiable sources. Gscshoyru 05:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems that those looking to remove may have something of an agenda here. A simple Google search turned up citations. Before removing content, one should at LEAST have to make an attempt to find verification--especially if that's going to be cited as the reason for removal. (i.e. "Could not verify") —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kscottbailey (talk • contribs) 05:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Please read this talk page. There's no agenda here. As both the "Honors and Awards" and "Deletions" sections state, I consulted an administrator about this matter and was advised that a subject's webpage isn't a reliable source. The deletions were made after a Google search, and if I wasn't able to find a reliable, third-party source, it was deleted.

I quote from the WP:SPS policy:

Self-published sources (online and paper)

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

--Figureskatingfan 05:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a VAST difference between some schmoe that publishes a website, and Dr. Angelou's website. It doesn't say "always unacceptable", it says "largely not acceptable", which is an important distinction. It is my contention that Dr. Angelou's website is one of the exceptions to the general rule.K. Scott Bailey 05:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

First, this would be one of those cases where the subject of the biography is notable enough that we can trust her website. That is, if she is lying on her "resume" - someone is going to notice and call her on it.

Second, the honors, awards, and degrees sections should be reduced to just two or three examples of the most prestigious of each type. This is an encyclopedia and not a compendium of all knowledge. Language such as "Dr. Angelou has received numerous honors including x Grammy awards, y Tony awards, and z Emmy wards in addition to numerous awards from universities, literary organizations, and special interest groups" would serve us far better than an exhaustive list. A link to the appropriate section of her website would then take the reader to her entire list. We should treat her honorary degrees in the same manner. Rklawton 12:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This seems most likely to be the best idea. And in my opinion, we should use the number of honorary degrees that is posted on the bio of her website.K. Scott Bailey 12:53, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

...unless there's a reliable source that says her website is mistaken... and with the understanding that this is one of those exceptions made for people who are high enough profile in a field where dishonesty would be outed. She's not just a "celebrity" but a scholar and a national figure. Rklawton 12:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The only "mistakes" discovered by FSF appear to be putting the wrong date (1998 vs 1999) on one of the degrees, and such as that.K. Scott Bailey 13:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Please do not think that I believe that Dr. Angelou is being deceitful. I have the upmost respect and admiration for her, which is why I've spent so many hours improving her bio. I think that she's important enough that her bio on Wikipedia should have a higher rating, eventually getting FA status. I was the one who got this article semi-protected, after some nasty, racist, sexist vandalism this week.

That being said, I disagree that any subject's website is reliable enough for Wikipedia. Dr. Angelou having unreliable information on her website doesn't mean that she or whomever is in charge of her site is "lying," it means that they don't have to live up to the same standards of reliability and verifiability. There is a link to the bio section of her webpage if people want more information about her honors and awards. Notice that the "Works" section is from her webpage, and that's noted in an embedded note. I agree that that's a reliable place for that, since it's basically her resume.

About Dr. Angelou's honors and awards: I think that the list should remain. One of the many remarkable things about her is the large amounts of honors she's received. It's also respectful, as she deserves. Perhaps a solution is to create a new article, a la List of awards and nominations for Meryl Streep.

Regarding the "mistakes": while it's true that there aren't any glaring errors on Dr. Angelou's website, there are enough small ones to warrant a reference check. And there are lots of items that couldn't be verified by outside, third-party sources, so they were deleted.--Figureskatingfan 22:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

And I think you're wrong, based upon the reasoning presented by Rklawton and myself regarding how much accountability is built into just BEING "Maya Angelou." And the policy regarding Self-published sources leaves room for wiggle room. I contend that Dr. Angelou's website fits into that "wiggle room." Please explain why you think it does not. K. Scott Bailey 22:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I've already done that. I said that I didn't think that any subject's website is reliable. If it were, all information would be verifiable by third-party sources, and from my research, not all the information on Dr. Angelou's webpage is. Again, it doesn't mean that she or her people are being dishonest. I'd like to see this article rise to the standard that I'm sure she'd want herself. What might help me come around to your argument is an example of another bio article with FA status that accepts a well-respected subject's webpage as a major source for its information. If you did that, I'd concede. I think that one way to resolve the issue is to create, as I've suggested, a new article entitled "Honors and awards for Maya Angelou." --Figureskatingfan 05:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

If you insist on keeping the award list, this article will never make FA. Rklawton made a perfectly reasonable suggestion, and I think you should give it more than cursory attention. Mentioning that Dr. Angelou has received X-number (basing it on the number that are listed on her website) of honorary degrees, including from X, Y, and Z universities that are verifiable by outside sources. How is this not an acceptable alternative? K. Scott Bailey 05:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, your OPINION on websites NEVER being acceptable doesn't conform with the very quote you threw out last night. I quote:

self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

Note it does NOT say "never", which is the standard you are holding to. K. Scott Bailey 05:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I haven't made myself clear, so I'll repeat myself--again. I said that I think that I was willing to take Rklawton's suggestions, and then create a new article with a list of Dr. Angelou's awards and honors. Is my suggestion not acceptable? And why wouldn't the article not get FA status with such a list?

I asked you to come up with an example of a FA that used its subject as a source, and you didn't. So I went and looked myself. Barack Obama is a FA, and it uses Obama's books, so I'm willing to concede that point. (I also looked at Pope John Paul II's bio, and it uses the Vatican's website--close enough, I suppose.)--Figureskatingfan 06:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we can trust M.A. to self-report her own honorary degrees. Don't be silly. There are all kinds of self-reported information from self-published sources we include in Wikipedia for all kinds of different reasons. The relevant policy is WP:SELFPUB. We can revisit this if and when this article is up for FA. Wikidemo 08:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't go searching for backup for my position, because it seems self-evident that a public figure like Dr. Angelou with such a high profile would have a website that would fit into the exception that I pointed out to you that the very bit of policy you quoted at me allows. You didn't even bother to respond to that point. One way or the other, I think the general consensus is narrow down the list to a few mentioned degrees, while trusting Dr. Angelou's site as far as the TOTAL number goes. K. Scott Bailey 11:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

New awards and honors section

As per the discussion here, I have written up a summary statement about Dr. Angelou's awards and honors, and then created a new article with the old list. (I still have to add the content from her webpage, and clean up the new article.) I hope that it's satisfactory, and that it meets with everyone's approval. If not, please make the appropriate changes. --Figureskatingfan 20:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that list stands alone as an article. For the most part an author's honors and awards are not a notable subject. It would be awkward for every major figure's biography to have a separate article for that. What ought to be done is to condense, summarize, contextualize, or otherwise deal with her awards to the point where they contribute and make sense in the context of her biographical article, more or less what's done in the prose mention, and give up on the idea of having a complete list. That goes for honorary degrees as well. As to whether her works, appearances, accomplishments, etc. ought to be a list, prose, or a separate article I would look to similar articles here to see what the practice is. Wikidemo 21:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

But all that work I've done! ;)

Seriously, though, I think you have a good argument. There are articles that do both--summarize awards and have a separate list. I've done a cursory overlook of bio articles that is by no means comprehensive, and I wasn't able to find any consistency one way or the other. However, I think that in the case of Dr. Angelou, an exception should be made, because the overwhelming amount of awards and accolades she's received is a huge part of her story. For now, I "vote" for keeping it this way if and/or when it gets in the way of a higher rating. --Figureskatingfan 05:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Cleaning up references

I changed two references in this article: Academy of Acheivement and Encyclopedia of Arkansas History and Culture because I'm not sure they're the most reliable of sources. For example, they both are inaccurate regarding where Ms. Angelou was raped as a child. I tried to find other sources for the information they support; I wasn't able to do so about the origin of her stage name, so I deleted the line. If anyone can verify it, please add it back in. Thanks. --Figureskatingfan 19:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Never mind! Found it! Deleted the line about Ms. Angelou's language fluency, though, for the same reason stated above. --Figureskatingfan 20:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide etc.

I added the IPA pronunication for Dr. Angelou's name (and a ref), since it's often mispronounced. I'm not all that familiar with the IPA (it was a very small part of a linguistic class I took in college), but tried my best, using IPA chart for English as a reference. If there's anyone else out there whose more familiar with it, please correct it. (Is my west coast accent adequate?)

I wonder if it's time to archive this talk page; it's getting "rilly" long. Anyone? --Figureskatingfan 05:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Honorifics

In the past several days, some editors have changed references to Ms. Angelou in this article, either using the honorific "Ms." or Dr." Part of that is my fault, I understand; in this talk page, I've gone out of my way to refer to her, like above, as "Ms." That's been a conscious decision on my part, for a few reasons. First, for consistency, at least on the talk page. Second, for respect, since this article has been vandalized so often with horribly insults to the subject. Finally, I started to do it after re-reading Caged Bird, and instance after instance of ways that people (mostly White, like myself) have treated her with blatant disrespect and rudeness. I've decided that if I were ever honored to meet Ms. Angelou, I'd probably always call her that, and not "Maya." (It probably wouldn't be "Dr.", since at my advanced age, it's doubtful that I'd ever become her student.) I'm certain she'd call me by my surname, even if I insisted that she call me by my first name. Maya Angelou is such a throw-back in that way, but if you read her books, you'd understand why. Then there's this, from an article cited in her WP bio:

Her speech is peppered with Southern courtesies. You may introduce yourself with your first name, but she will address you with your second. Everybody, in her presence, becomes Mr, Mrs or Miss - legacy from a time when African-Americans were denied those basic signifiers of civility by whites, and so demanded it within their own community.

I appreciate the obvious respect editors have attempted to pay to Ms. Angelou, but the question still remains: what do we call her in her article. I looked at WP:MOSBIO#Subsequent uses of names, and found this:

After the initial mention of any name, the person may be referred to by surname only.

• This seems appropriate. I have a problem with the use of the honorific "Dr." since she obviously has no undergraduate or post graduate degree that is not honorary. I've never understood why she chooses to use the "Dr." Mercer123 (talk) 01:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

She's entitled to use it, even with her only-honorary degrees. She teaches at a university, so expecting her students to refer to her in that way is also well within her rights. Then again, I'm all for calling people what they want to be called. Just don't call me late for dinner, okay? ;) --Figureskatingfan (talk) 02:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

As a result, I'm changing this article to follow this guideline. Please discuss if there's disagreement. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 00:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, one exception: this sentence, the third line in the "Adulthood and early career" section: "(Ms. Angelou tends not to admit how many times she has been married, "for fear of sounding frivolous.")" I think it's a good exception to the guideline. --Figureskatingfan (talk) 00:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)