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deletion for improvement's sake

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Recently User:Astronaut placed a "prod" tag on this article noting: "Little more than an advert which provides no evidence to back up the claimed notability. Despite being tagged as "unreferenced" since Nov 2006, no attempt has been made to address the problem". In which it seems that Astronaut thinks the subject matter is notable enough for a wikipedia article, but that at the time of the tag placement the article lacked sufficient citations to back the claim and suffered from other quality problems. I note that the article now has more than 15 references and several more links both internal and external. I think that deleting this article on a notable subject would make improving it harder than not deleting it and I am opposed to the proposed deletion. I do concede that it may still read a bit like an advertisement, but I think that through continued editing the article could be improved. Deleting this article would hamper improvement attempts. Among other problems recreating an article that has already been deleted is a bit discouraged by the wiki software. Leaving the article to exist can allow contributing editors to make improvements. Admittedly it took 3 years and a threat of deletion to induce someone to come along and add references and some copyedits, but I do not feel that deleting the article will help article improvement matters further. 69.119.27.73 (talk) 01:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are a couple of items from the guidelines at WP:BEFORE that seem to pertain to this article's deletion proposal including the following excerpts:
  • If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion.
  • If the article is not already tagged to note a problem, apply a tag, such as {{notability}}, {{hoax}}, {{original research}}, {{unencyclopedic}} or {{advert}}; this ensures that everyone viewing the article is aware of the problem and may act to remedy it.
  • When nominating an article for deletion due to sourcing or notability concerns, make a good-faith attempt to confirm that such sources aren't likely to exist.
I suspect these more constructive approach recommendations will help with the article's improvement more than deleting it will. 69.119.27.73 (talk) 04:35, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently the deletion proposal has been withdrawn. Further article improvements are always welcome. 69.119.27.73 (talk) 13:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

infobox choice

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I have had placed a Template:Infobox Restaurant into this article, however I note that another infobox could also be used (I think this article should only have one Infobox). An example of the use of a Template:Infobox Venue would be this one in the right margin: 69.119.27.73 (talk) 04:27, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the Venue Infobox since it de-emphasizes the restaurant aspect of the establishment. Although qua restaurant Maxwell's is perfectly fine, its fame derives more from its music venue and the Venue infobox can put a slightly greater emphasis on that. 69.119.27.73 (talk) 23:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maxwell's
Map
Location1039 Washington Street
Hoboken, New Jersey, United States
Coordinates40°44′58″N 74°1′36″W / 40.74944°N 74.02667°W / 40.74944; -74.02667
OwnerSteve Shelley, Dave Post, Todd Abramson
TypeMusic venue, restaurant, bar, and contemporary art gallery
Genre(s)punk, grunge, and indie rock
Capacity200 (backroom stage)
Construction
OpenedAugust 1978 (1978-08)
RenovatedJuly 26, 1998
Website
http://www.maxwellsnj.com/
The Venue Infobox has replaced the Restaurant Infobox in the article. 69.119.27.73 (talk) 02:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

criticism

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In order to add material that does not sound like blatant advertising it might be helpful to add a section on criticism of the place (this might also help to maintain a requisite WP:NPOV). For example: 69.119.27.73 (talk) 04:41, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a music venue it is not very large, in fact it holds only about 200 people(sisario 1998) and is considered dark.(jerseyshore.metromix) The live music at a club in a residential area has led some neighbors to complain about the noise as well as dancing in the streets during the early days of the club.(sisario 1998) A Hoboken restaurant survey website gave Maxwell's a rating of 3.33 out of a possible 5 in June, 2009."Maxwell’s Bar & Restaurant - Hoboken 411 » Hoboken's Leading Web Community". October 19, 2008. Retrieved 2009-06-30.

The proposed new "Criticism" section has been added to the article and further refinements to it should now take place there. 69.119.27.73 (talk) 02:26, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Liner photo(s) from the Bleach (album) by Nirvana

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According to this page "The limited edition poster included with the vinyl release features a photo of 'Nirvana' taken by Charles Peterson at their 02/25/89 show at the HUB Ballroom at the University of Washington, which features Jason Everman." and "The cover-shot of the album, of Nirvana at the Recko-Muse gallery in Olympia, was taken by Tracy Marander. CD versions included another of Peterson's photos from 02/25/89 in the insert, as well as one of his pictures from Nirvana's 02/15/90 show at Raji's in Los Angeles on the back inner sleave."

The page here identifies a photo of Kurt Cobain collaped or collapsing into a drum kit with "Raji's" clearly written on the wall behind the kit. It is identified as February 15, 1990, Hollywood, CA and is clearly from the same event as one of the photos in the CD liner. The photo posted at geocities shows a less cropped copy of the CD liner photo with "Raji's" clearly visible. According to this site Nirvana's 1987 and 1988 shows were mostly on the west coast (Washington state). Note that Bleach was released June 15, 1989 so the Raji's photos from February 1990 appeared on the CD (apparently released some time after February 1990). Nirvana appeared at Maxwell's on July 13, 1989 and March 28, 1990.(at least setlist and livenirvana websites back these claims, the latter attempts to be a comprehansive list of appearance) Chronologically it was not possible for a photo from their first Maxwell's appearence to appear on the June 15 1989 released album (vinyl - perhaps not a CD release initially?) but photos that were taken later could have been put onto a later release, as apparently exemplified by the Feb 1990 photo from Raji's appearing on the CD release of Bleach.

Is there a Maxwell's connection for Bleach? There may be two: on a recently purchased Bleach CD the text: "Nirvana Fan Club: P.O. Box 1477 Hoboken, N.J. 07030" appears. So the address for a fan club on the band's debut album was a Post Office box in the same city as Maxwell's. In addition, photos of Nirvana in Hoboken on July 13, 1989 by Ian Tilton are visible here and includes photos of Cobain used as a French magazine cover. I think the claims made in this article about where the photos for the album liner were taken may be misleading. I propose rewriting the paragraph on Nirvana as follows so as to remove the claim that a photo from a Maxwell's show appears with any release of the album:

In 1989 the band Nirvana released their debut album Bleach on June 15 and went on tour to support sales of the album. They appeared at Maxwell's on July 13, 1989 and early in the day before the show photographer Ian Tilton took several pictures of the band around Hoboken. The picture of frontman Kurt Cobain has since been used in dozens of magazines, newspapers, and websites before and after his death."07/13/89". Retrieved 2009-07-02.
The proposed rewrite has been placed into the article. Hence the article no longer claims that the Bleach liner photos were shot at Maxwell's. 69.119.27.73 (talk) 12:27, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Elysian diamond

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Elysian field in 1866. Maxwell's front door is now located adjacent to what was third base in the nineteenth century (on the left in this view from behind home plate).

According to concrete and bronze monuments left in the pavement by a Hoboken civic organization "recently" (I visited on July 3, 2009 and I estimate they are no more than 10 years old) Maxwell's was located at third base for the baseball diamond of the Elysian Fields, Hoboken, New Jersey. (Baseball historians may be interested to note: home plate was on the northeast corner at the present day intersection of Washington and 11th streets [designated with an "H" monument in the irregular pentagonal shape of a home plate]. First base was on the northwest corner [designated with a "1" square base monument], and second base was on the southwest corner [designated with a "2"]. Maxwell's at third is on the southeast corner [there is a "3" monument in front of the Maxwell's entrance door on the corner]. There is a large bronze plaque that explains the historical significance in the 11th Street median between first and second bases.) Unfortunately the 1866 Currier and Ives illustration view does a poor job of representing the 20th and 21st century bar, restaurant, and music venue. 69.119.27.73 (talk) 00:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "Hoboken Industry and Business Association" may have placed the baseball field markers in a renovated street intersection (junction) in 2003.([1]) 69.119.27.73 (talk) 16:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comments

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These have been moved here from a subpage as part of a cleanup process. See Wikipedia:Discontinuation of comments subpages.

this is a blatant advert for a pub in hoboken

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