Talk:Mauna Kea/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Mauna Kea. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

How tall is Mauna Kea?

Since Mauna Kea's claim to fame is being the biggest mountain in the world from base to peak, I think it's a glaring omission not to include its base-to-peak height alongside its elevation above sea level. I think I am going to tend to this; it's pretty key. Stay tuned. C.M.65.102.39.98 20:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Tallest? No! e.g. bougainville

bougainville island is unequivocally "taller" than hawaii- yet another example of CIA "geography" (like"snake river canyon is the deepest"). There are far fewer USA "world" records than you might think. Denali holds no world's records. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.103.67 (talk) 21:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Care to provide a source for any of this?Jebarringer (talk) 20:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Haven't found anything explicit, but the sea floor near Bougainville appears to be substantially shallower that that around Hawaii. kwami (talk) 21:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone changed the article to make a similar claim about Guam. However, the ref makes no such claim, and the editor was engaging in OR, measuring the difference from the peak of Guam to the bottom of the Marianas Trench, not to the base of the volcano. kwami (talk) 20:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Ref to Lamlam has now been removed. Since the claim M. Kea is not the tallest mountain is OR, I suggest that we don't bother with such POVs. Mprex did remove a clarifying note, however:

The base of a mountain is the portion of the crust that the mountain emerges from. In the case of oceanic volcanoes, this is the sea floor; in the case of Mt Everest, it is the Indian subcontinent.

That could be returned if need be. kwami (talk) 21:23, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Discrepancy in Base to Peak Measurement

On the right in the little bar it says 10,000 meters while in the article it says 9,000. Which is correct?

Unit order

This article suffered from mixed unit order. Sometimes metres then feet. Other times feet then metres. I conformed all units I could find to feet then metres as is the custom for articles about places in the U.S. See WP:UNITS. --DRoll (talk) 00:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Tallest mountain in the world?

There was a statement in the text of the article which claimed that Mauna Kea is the tallest mountain in world if measured from its base in the ocean to its summit. There was an end note that seemed to refute the statement citing a USGS article. I removed the entire discussion. If someone wishes to restore the statement they need to provide documentation. --DRoll (talk) 21:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The article supports it being the tallest by that standard. kwami (talk) 21:18, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems to support the claim for Mauna Loa not Mauna Kea. Right? --DRoll (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel that this makes it the tallest mountain, unless Kea peak is farther into the atmosphere than Everest. We might as well measure from the core if the ocean level creates all these weird discrepancies. 72.199.100.223 (talk) 20:20, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

That's like measuring the length of your penis using the 1/3 that is inside your body ! In the case of M.Kea, height ABOVE SEA LEVEL is what counts.

To do list

Mauna Kea

Write rough article. Done
- Search and give a para on all parks and reserves. Done
- Finish Lower environemnt section. Done
- Rewrite Observatories. Done
- Write Human history. Done
- Rewrite lead, from scratch. Done
Rough copyedit. Go over article with things like nbsp;, mdash;, ndash;, titles, etc. Done
Bother WP:HAWAII people for accuracy, missing stuff, etc. Done
- Geology check out? Done
- Human history check out? Done
- Ecology check out? Done
- Ascent check out? Done
- Summit observatory check out? Done
- Recreation check out? Done
Bother someone for a copyedit. Done
Bother someone else for a copyedit. Done
Review references. Done
Informal peer reviews. The more the better. Done
Bother someone for yet another copyedit. Preferably perfectionist. Done
Fine tune and copyedit once more. Done
Read it one last time to see that it hasn't any problems. Done
Take a deep breath and list it at WP:FAC. Done
Hope. Done
??? Doing...
Profit! ResMar 02:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Spin offs

One issue is what other articles to spin off. I see Mauna Kea Trail and Onizuka Center for International Astronomy so far. Should we do a separate one for the State Park (I think officially now a "Recreation Area" though do not understand the distinction). We seem to have a picture of it, but not much separate to say about it. Then there is Mauna Kea Ice Age Reserve which is both redlinked and embolded in the body. It might make sense to unbold and spin that off too. (or not? this seems the only link) Its official name seems Mauna Kea Ice Age Natural Area Reserve, although most of the other reserves do not have their own article, since by definition recreation is discouraged in them. This one, however, is somewhat notable I think. W Nowicki (talk) 16:12, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

My own follow-up: the Mauna Kea Adz Quarry lies within the Ice Age Reserve, so I would suggest making the reserve a redirect to that or vice versa. It is a NHL, but might not have the nomination form online since they do not want people to trample on it so refuse to locate it. I can do it if there are no objections. W Nowicki (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, the adz, beloved of Scrabble players throughout the English-speaking world! Good to know where they come from ^_-

Awien (talk) 16:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there are several other loopholes in coverage. Remember Palila v. Hawaii Department of Land and Natural Resources? I'm still suprised that wasn't written yet. Actually, it's adze. Adz is not a word :) I've finally finished the lead. The article is long, but the lead is enourmous to go with it! So much to cover! Four fat paragraphs of summarization. ResMar 19:28, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll mostly be doing proofreading at least for a while, in fact I'm going to tackle the intro right now. As for adz(e) - in real life, I agree, adze, but respectable dictionaries allow adz as a variant, a great boon for Scrabble. Ciao, Awien (talk) 20:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I'll wait till you've added the refs, and check those as I go. Aloha! Awien (talk) 21:02, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm tired of Mauna Kea for today, actually. Summit observatory still needs to be written though, and I'm having trouble with reliable links atm. ResMar 22:58, 18 August 20

You want to write it? You can if you want. I can't say why but the observatory section is very draggy for me...Res Mar 23:14, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

No promises, but at least if a little research turns up the mother lode of info, I'll share. Btw, beware of confusing summit (observatories) and mid-level support facilities (Hale Pohaku/Onizuka Center). Awien (talk) 00:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed... :) ResMar 02:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Another related point is that most "astronomers" now do the actual observations over the Internet from their offices on campus. Hale Pohaku is mostly for technicians who need to maintain all the delicate equipment, e.g. liquid nitrogen, in the hostile environment. There are also facilities in Hilo and Waimea for more staff that do not need to be near the top. W Nowicki (talk) 22:12, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Summit

Aloha, Resident Mario. Your enthusiasm in wanting to improve the Hawai'i articles is impressive, please don't lose it. But in general, you should please be more careful concerning the accuracy of the information you post, and the impression you are giving readers who come to the topic with no previous knowledge.

The latter is why I am about to remove all the statements that suggest that the summit is an accessible recreation area, and not particularly dangerous. It is not accessible, it is dangerous, and leading people to think otherwise has tha potential to cause actual, real-world harm, both to people and to the work of the observatory. Any information about the (almost non-existent) recreational use of the summit needs to be much more accurate than it is now.

So let's stay with this, and really bring the article up to scratch. Best, Awien (talk) 13:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Did re-write of recreation section. Better balanced now, I think. Hope people agree. Awien (talk) 18:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, very good thank you. I will work a bit on the ancillary articles, and hope to dig out a source for the deaths, which should be notable enough and clearly indicate the danger. Some of the docs estimate number of visitors, so we might even give those to illustrate how few make it. W Nowicki (talk) 19:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I see you guys are working hard on the article, and I seriously appreciate it. I'm trying to recruit people for reviews and for copyedits right now, so as to avoid lengthy and painful FACs. :) ResMar 22:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Bad, very bad. Awien, I appreciate the rewrite, but sources please. I go with what my sources say, if you have something to go to that point I will be happy to edit it, but writing the section from memory and deleting all referencing is a big no-no. Reverted. Hopefully it won't turn into a tag and seige thing...Res Mar 03:05, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I think I"m going to try and pull it out of the 2009 summary. ResMar 13:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Bingo. 6.1.3 Recreation and Tourism. ResMar 14:00, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Questions

Did some of my usual changes, e.g. ancient Hawaiians is the historical period, vs. native Hawaiians which is the current ethnic group. Also "culture" is more current, so changed the link to Hawaiian mythology which is the collection of stories. Hawaiian religion though might also be relevant to link.

"Tall" vs. "High" again

I think the article wording now is inconsistent with the discussion above. To me, a non-geologist as the intended audience, "tall" would mean from base to peak of the geological feature, making Mauna Kea "taller" than Everest, but "height" being elevation above sea level. For example, when I climb a ladder I get higher, not taller. If Kareem Abdul Jabar goes to Death Valley, a dwarf at sea level would be higher than he is, but certainly not taller. So I still think the wording needs work to clarify this. W Nowicki (talk) 22:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Interesting, I was trying to avoid word repition actually :) ResMar 00:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have no idea what the comment above is supposed to mean. Right now the words are used inconsistently and generally the opposite of their normal English concepts. It seems my concept of "tallness" is roughly the idea of Topographic prominence? W Nowicki (talk) 18:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Please

Hold off on Recreational signifigance, please. It's becoming more and more of a train wreck with each edit. Bare urls, choppy prose, opinionated statements, synth, it needs a complete rewrite at this point. ResMar 16:25, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sandboxing it right now. ResMar 01:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok I have rewritten the section into a more concise, balanced work. What do ya think? ResMar 01:59, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Recreational significance

Flagged it: after revert is unbalanced, lacks necessary info, contains too much misinformation. Awien (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, tags, excuses for not fixing it. I'm working on it, isn't that enough? Tisk. ResMar 20:29, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Nt: I've revised it with information from here. ResMar 20:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Need to reach a compromise. The sources need to be taken into account. For example, peakbagger seems like a useful source for mountaineering info, but very few tourists to Hawaii (and very few Wikipedia readers) are mountaineers. Thousands of tourists visit the island each day (probably tens of thousands to Oahu, but that is another issue), and maybe for the dozen or so mountaineers of them Mauna Kea hikiing is "popular". It probably is true and supported by sources that Manua Loa is even harder to climb (see info in that article). Also the CMP is written mostly from a local perspective. Locals might go skiing on the summit but that is because they are around and wait until the two or three days a year when the conditions are right: just after a snow when the roads are clear. Even the ski club site does not recommend skiing. By far the most popular influence of Mauna Kea on recreation is at the lower elevations. For example, its historic namesake Mauna Kea Beach Hotel and other huge resorts in its rain shadow, and parks with all the waterfalls like Wailuku River State Park, Akaka Falls State Park etc. on the eastern slopes. And the various reserves like Hakalau Forest National Wildlife Refuge. W Nowicki (talk) 21:44, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

PLEASE THINK, Resident Mario. What you say here has real-world repercussions. A thousand people a day are reading this article, and you are giving them the entirely false impression that the summit is some sort of adventure playground they can safely drive to. That isn’t true, it’s a dangerous drive, at a dangerous altitude, where people have died going off the road, and others have had to be rushed to hospital with life-threatening ALTITUDE sickness, not motion sickness as you have written. In one instance people who drove up unprepared got trapped by a snowstorm and had to break in to a telescope or risk death from exposure. Every vehicle that goes up is kicking up dust that can harm the telescopes that are there to do SCIENCE, and adding to the hazards of the road for the astronomers and support staff who are there to do their work.

In the real world, as opposed to getting a WP article to GA status or whatever, your bad info can do actual harm, hence the tag when I didn't have time for anything else. My insufficiently-referenced info was correct and didn’t risk sending people into danger, and a better move on your part would have been to tag it as lacking citations, or . . . fix it.

That being said, how are we going to fix it now? Awien (talk) 22:37, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I have taken the first step by restoring the overview from my previous edit. It is an inelegant kludge, but brings better balance to the coverage. I do not have time to add refs now, so feel free to tag any statements you know are wrong or dubious, but please do not delete text wholesale. We or someone can now work at integrating and cleaning up the section as a whole. In the meantime, since you don't seem to have any real idea of what conditions are like at 14,000 feet, I urge you to read this: http://irtfweb.ifa.hawaii.edu/observing/safety/MK_Hazards.pdf

I also want to assure you that I bear you no personal ill-will over this (although your sarcasm above is uncalled-for). I'm sure you mean well, as do WNowicki and I, and hope we can fix this amicably. Best, Awien (talk) 11:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've implemented a good part of what was indicated in your para into the text. The rest will come as soon as I find the proper references. ResMar 15:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I would be happy to work on it given time, but do not want to get in edit conflicts. We might have an issue of Undue weight: sources that focus on the summit are now primarily used, (Peakbagger and the CMP) while the article is supposed to be about the mountain as a whole. Note that on Mauna Loa I attempted to spin off an article about the summit, since it is more clearly defined after all (and has an NRHP listing), but was over-ruled and reverted. There already is a section on "Ascent" so need to avoid duplication. Its fine to have a paragraph on the summit qualified by "Experienced mountaineers..." but first talk about the more common activities. W Nowicki (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I am completely happy to to step aside and let you fix it, W Nowicki. The current tinkering is, as you say, not correcting the problem of lack of balance. Cheers, Awien (talk) 19:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I understand the bias. But hikers go out and write down what they do, but tourists that go on a sunday trip generally don't. Peakbagger has been removed from the article altogethor. ResMar 21:13, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Since you acknowledge the bias, Resident Mario, are you too going to leave it alone to let W Nowicki take care of it? Awien (talk) 14:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, if he gets to it before I do, he can be my guest. I've got a slate of 5 different things to do right now so I'm a bit booked. ResMar 16:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

There is no ownership, but I would like to take a pass at it this afternoon. Right now some of the claims are still there (like the very first sentence of the section in question) so I would put the source back qualified as above. W Nowicki (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

There is still serious confusion between activities at the Visitor Information Station (9000 ft level), and those at the summit. "Stargazing" happens at the VIS, NOT the summit. Awien (talk) 11:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I got called away. To amplify:

Summit – public access to science reserve currently unrestricted by day, forbidden at night (re light pollution interfering w. observation i.e. what the observatory is there for), enforced by rangers

tours – licenced, take visitors to view sunset, then have to leave. See CMP

Mid-level Visitor Information Station – where the “stargazing” happens. Open all day w. displays, films etc. Facilitates amateur astronomy after dark. The seeing is still amazing up there.

Other

Reserve areas are to protect birds not animals – the introduced animals are killing the indigenous birds via habitat destruction . Goal of hunting in reserves is to eliminate sheep, cattle etc. Goal outside don’t know personally, implication is sustainability.

Oddity (for somebody’s neat DYK?)

On Big Island, pigs kill birds – research it!

Awien (talk) 13:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not intend to add misleading information. Revert if you think it was better before. I have pretty much run out of steam on this. My reasoning was that this article should not be a dumping ground for every bit of information that is known, and in particular, should mostly be a summary of the linked articles. For example, if someone cares about the details of the Onizuka Center or Observatory they could click through to that article and get the details. But it looks like many of those details are filtering back in. For example, the detail that John Palmer Parker arrived in 1809, even though he was not associated with Mauna Kea until later. If you care about details of his life go to his article. Or that " many stocks had escaped confinement" before roaming freely (sounds redundant to me, how else could one roam freely?). The lead would also need to be more summary in nature for me to vote for GA status. W Nowicki (talk) 18:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

No, WNowicki, you didn't add misleading info, I'm sorry if it seemed I was suggesting that. The confusion was there already, it just hasn't been clarified yet. I'm putting in my two bits' worth from the sidelines to avoid getting into edit conflicts. Your work on the Recreation section is a big improvement, please don't give up. As for the article as a whole, I've been too busy to pay much attention, but agree in principle that quantity doesn't equal quality, and can detract from it. Aloha! Awien (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

No access to summit after dark: http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/mko/visiting.htm

Awien (talk) 22:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The detail of his arrival date is very important to readers understanding the article. His date of arrival gives context to the sentance. As for the lead, "needs to be more summary" tells me absolutely nothing, please elaborate. ResMar 23:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Re-writen "Recreational significance"

(Keeping the discussion here)

Resident Mario, I'm sorry I haven't been able to get back to you earlier concerning your re-write.

So at this point, the actual misinformation has been removed, which is good. The overall lack of balance unfortunately remains. This is because the documents from which you are getting most of your information are focused on recreational access to the summit, since that is a difficult and controversial issue. The fact that in terms of numbers of people involved and revenue generated, activities at the coast and at lower elevations are by far the most significant is still not being given its due weight. One thing I tried to do to slightly mitigate the imbalance was to give activities at lower levels a bit more weight by putting them first, but that keeps getting changed, and it’s not a real solution anyway.

The overall tone is a problem too, in that in parts it reads more like promotional material and how-to than a factual account, but that’s obviously a minor issue.

Anyway, given the virtual impossibility of finding proper references for the actual state of affairs, maybe we need to re-think this. I wonder whether our best course at this point might not be to eliminate this section completely? We could add some mention of the issue of shared use of the summit to the Observatory section, maybe give the Onizuka Center a section of its own, and incorporate information about reserves and hunting into Ecology. This would not be a problem at all for the completeness of the article, it seems to me.

What do you and what does anyone think? Aloha, Awien (talk) 20:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that an imbalance is itself warrents the removal of a section of an article. It's a persistant issue, and there is apparently no easy solution, as what you say is the most important activity on the mountain goes undocumented. Perhaps the best course of action is simply to leave a hidden note and move on? ResMar 23:39, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I've gone through and tried to take out some of the 'howto'-sounding material in favour of reporting on the activities. I've left the part about danger of going to the top; unless there's numbers on the proportion of people who get altitude sick which could be mentioned, not sure how else to change that. Iridia (talk) 02:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, read Awien's above posts. He really nailed me, scared me that some poor guy was climbing the mountain cause he misread my article :) ResMar 02:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, no no, it definitely has to stay in some form. I've seen even overnight-acclimatised astronomers keel over and need oxygen at Keck - and tourist rentals don't carry oxygen... I just meant is the prose too 'howto' still. Iridia (talk) 02:51, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Two things to add regarding the desirability of eliminating this section as such and redistributing its content to more appropriate sections:

One, it was a fundamental mistake to try to generalise to the whole mountain what only needs to be considered in relation to the competing interests regarding the summit area and the Science Reserve.

Two, there is no "Recreational significance" section in the article on any other Hawaiian mountain - Mauna Loa, Hualalai, Kohala, Kilauea, Haleakala, West Maui Mountains, Mount Ka’ala, Mount Wai’ale’ale etc. Aloha, Awien (talk) 13:46, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, Mauna Kea is special. It's the highest, people know about the summit astronomy, and the ecosystems on its flanks are more accessable overall. They actually have Wikipedia articles. Writing Hulalai, I was agape at how little there was on the volcano's parks and such. ResMar 14:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I still hold the opinion I stated above, and tried to implement with my edits that were undone. The section should stay, but lead off talking about the most common activities. Just swapping the first two paragraphs of the existing section would be an improvement. Then links to the popular places along the shore, and maybe a mention of how Hilo Bay is formed by Mauna Kea on the west and Mauna Loa on the south, giving its "L" shape which causes tsunamis to be very deadly. And still no mention of the namesake historic hotel, or the many modern ones in the rain shadow that are much more popular than the top. W Nowicki (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Hear hear! If it's to stay, organise it logically, on the principle of greatest to least, as I also tried to do but got essentially but dishonestly reverted. And of course include other activities that actually affect large numbers of people. Be my guest - I'm afraid of messing up links if I try to do anything major. Awien (talk) 20:46, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The first para is introductary historical material to the rest of the section. The want to shift it down is imcomprehendable to me; so what if hiking/hunting are the first paragraph? I was very dissapointed in the organization of the paragraph that was developing independant of me, and it sounded like a bunch of stabs tied loosely togethor. A paragraph on birdwatching was placed with a para on the Rangers program. How are two even vaugly related? I moved birdwatching to the end of the observersation para, and the rangers program to the hiking and hiking dangers para. The whole section was a such disjoined mess. You're too focused on this. Just because hiking has more material then everything else, doesn't mean anything, considering in the interest of balance it's a mere sentance or two, and it's clouding up your judgement of organization. As much as I would love to include all these things mentioned, sources, and above all reliable sources are nonexistant, leading me to question wether or not what is being brought up is even notable. Your idea of bias is based on a paper trail that's nearly nonexistant, and as much as I would love for this to be worked out, when there's no paper trail to work through, and thus there's nothing to add to the article that wouldn't be immediatly removed during the FAC. I welcome you to find the sources and talk to me about it, but if nothing comes of it, no change should be made. ResMar 02:05, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

ResMar, there are a lot of issues here that I’m going to leave aside, because solving one may have the potential to break the deadlock.

“Recreational significance” [of Mauna Kea] has to deal with the whole mountain. The only part of the mountain the road to the summit opened up was the summit, there was access to the Hale Pohaku level (and other mid-level places) before. The history of access to the summit is not the history of access to the mountain, and therefore has no need to come first in coverage of the recreational use of the mountain.

Compromise on that, allow organisation from most significant to least in this section on significance, and we can move forward.

I will just add as an aside that sensational and significant are not the same thing.

Awien (talk) 17:19, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

On rereading, I would also support removing this section and instead putting the material on each area at the end of each section that describes that area. For example, summit access at the end of the "Ascent" section, parks forest and reserves in the ecology section. Right now it duplicates talking about feral animals damging the ecosystem, for example. Or re-order if that is consensus.

As for sources, they do too exist. Perhaps spending time doing the research yourself and even beefing up the related articles might result in a better quality of Wikipedia than arguing with editors who are trying to help you. I added the state park site, for example. Do you honestly believe that the State of Hawaii is not a reliable source for the location of its own parks? For completeness the sites for Natural Area Reserves, Forest Reserves (those are slightly different, but seem to overlap), and county park sites would be other obvious choices. Or your choice of a good guidebook. And rangers and birdwatching certainly seems to go together to me, since they both happen in the forest preserves. W Nowicki (talk) 17:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Regardless of how relevant or not relevant climbing the mountain is, that paragraph constitutes important historical background material as to previous occupations on the mountain. If you move it around you are going to severely mess up the flow of the section, for fairly little benefit. Yeah, it focuses much on the summit and upper flanks of Mauna Kea. In this case, there is no escaping it. There are sources to one, and not to the other; moving everything around has so far only messed up flow and made it hard to read; Nowiki's idea of verifiability based on other Wikipedia articles is a confligation of WP:SOURCE (do not use Wikipedia as a source) and would be immediatly removed come the FAC. All in all, the best course of action is to simply agknowledge the biase and move on from there. The section is hardly the most important one in the article anyway. ResMar 17:41, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. The rangers program is responsible for climber's safety and is not involved with the parks. If there are rangers in the parks, they'd hardly warrent inclusion in the article; the reason the summit rangers get a sentance is because of all the pressure you've been applying on me to make climbing Mauna Kea look as scarey as possible. I have done my research myself and it's come up fairly blank. As soon as you invent a foolproof method to parse away all the stupid Hawaii tourist links, tell me; then we'd have an easier time :/ ResMar 17:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Please show me where I said that the State is not a reliable source for its own parks. ResMar 17:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Please read your own comments a few paragraphs above: "...all reliable sources are nonexistant..." W Nowicki (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

My first choice remains to remove this section and redistribute the content accordingly. Do that and the most intractable problems melt like lemon drops . . . . Reordering is only a poor second. Fixing flow, phraseology etc. is no big deal once the fundamentals are in place. Aloha! Awien (talk) 20:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I dropped it down to the midsection of hiking, and split it into two paragraphs. Next! ResMar 02:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm... :L ResMar 03:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Some thoughts in response to your message on my talk page. I’ve just done a couple of tweaks myself, but I have some other suggestions:

- the first paragraph is unclear, it makes it sound as though the land of the Hamakua coast was shaped by wind, whereas in fact it is eroded into spectacular gulches by streams that are fed by the high rainfall due to its being on the windward side, with the shoreline eroded into cliffs by the ocean. I was going to fix that, but but ran into the usual problem of some facts being hard to document from online sources.

Changed to erosion. Without a ref there is nothing more I can do. ResMar 03:02, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Eureka! Finally unearthed real info from among the tourist dreck:

http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/coasts/publications/hawaiiCoastline/hawaii.html

- maybe hunting to clear forest reserves of destructive animals should be mentioned, e.g. year-round recreational hunting to control introduced ungulates in Mauna Kea Forest Reserve (CMP 3.1), and Hakalau Forest National Wildlife Refuge: elimination of feral ungulates by hunting, trapping, and snaring (http://www.fws.gov/refuges/profiles/index.cfm?id=12536)

Um, it's there already? Or was it struck off...?

- paragraphs 3 and 4 should be reorganised to clarify the difference between mid-level and summit, presumably covering mid-level first as affecting the larger number of people.

I disagree. You're really trying to push it down there; as it stands, the history > dangers > modern route + mid level facilities organization is excellent in terms of flow, and I'm reluctant to push it any farther down. ResMar 03:02, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

- the rangers’ role is as much to protect the Science Reserve and cultural sites as to ensure safety (CMP).

Added intergrity. ResMar 03:02, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Hope this helps. Awien (talk) 02:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Geology

A small thing: in para. 2 of this section, we read "Of the five volcanoes that make up the island, Mauna Kea is the fourth oldest and fourth most active", then para 3 begins "Like the other older Hawaiian volcanoes, Hualālai and Kohala, Mauna Kea has evolved . . . ". So what's the third oldest? Or is MK actually the third oldest? Awien (talk) 14:21, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

It is indeed fourth in age; I'm grouping the 3 "old" volcanoes (in chrono: Kohala, Mauna Kea, Hualalai) togethor. It wasn't specifically meant to convey relative age, should it be changed...? ResMar 21:53, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, I see now. Probably it was just me, but I might tweak the wording anyway if inspiration strikes. Awien (talk) 01:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Thinking about it specifically, Kilauea is on its own in front, behind it is Mauna Loa + Hualalai, then Hualalai + Mauna Kea (depending on wether you focus on eruptive rate or volcanic form), then finally the real elder statesman Kohala :) ResMar 03:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

State rec area

Article currently has this (deliberately nowiki-ed): "A small part of the Māmane-Naio forest is encompassed by the [[Mauna Kea State Recreation Area]].<ref>{{cite web|title=Mauna Kea State Recreation Area|url=http://www.hawaiistateparks.org/parks/hawaii/maunakea.cfm|work=Hawaii State Parks|publisher=[[Hawai'i Department of Land and Natural Resources|Hawai{{okina}}i Department of Land and Natural Resources]]|accessdate=15 August 2010}}</ref>"
Not sure what that last note means, but the source itself does not contain the info that the foreset is within in the rec area. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Geological evolution and the hotspot

At the FAC discussion, a reviewer requested the addition of some material on the volcanoes evolutionary context. This resulted in the following addition (refs excluded):

The first in-depth geological study of the Hawaiian chain was conducted in 1880–81 by the American geologist James Dwight Dana. He hypothesized that the chain consisted of two volcanic strands, with Mauna Loa and Mauna Kea at the front of their respective trends. The Kea trend included Kea, Kīlauea, Kohala, Haleakalā, and West Maui, while the Loa trend includes Loiʻhi, Mauna Loa, Hualālai, Kahoʻolawe, Lānaʻi, and West Molokaʻi.[10] Dana's work was followed up by C. E. Dutton's 1884 expedition, which clarified that the island of Hawaiʻi consisted of five volcanoes (Dana had regarded Kīlauea as a flank vent of Mauna Loa, and Kohala as part of Mauna Kea). In 1912 geologist Thomas Jaggar founded the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory, which remains the primary volcanic observatory in Hawaii to this day.

This appears to largely be a cut-and-paste from Hawaii hotspot, but I've taken a look at a couple of sources, and I'm not entirely happy with the text. I will try and work something up shortly. Issues include that the para needs to state current theory, not merely historical origin of the theory; and needs to deal effectively with the controversy reflected in the work at Mantleplumes.org (a ref that is cited, but not really accurately summarised), without giving undue weight. As I say, i'm on to it. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:13, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Replacement text:

In common with all Hawaiian volcanoes, Mauna Kea has been created by the Hawaiian hotspot, as the Pacific tectonic plate has moved over a hotspot in the Earth's underlying mantle.^[1] The Hawaiʻi island volcanoes are merely the most recent evidence of this process that, over 70 million years, has created the 6,000 km (3,700 mi)-long Hawaiian Ridge-Emperor Seamount chain.^[2] The prevailing, though not completely settled, view is that the hotspot has been largely stationary within the planet's mantle for much, if not all of the Cenozoic Era.^[2]^[3] However, while Hawaiian volcanism is well-understood and extensively studied, there remains no definite explanation of the mechanism that causes the hotspot effect.^[4]

Hope everyone's happy with that. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:36, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Much improved. I do miss the bit about how it fits into the twin tracks, but that's not vital. --Avenue (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that was a somewhat reluctant deletion, but the two tracks weren't mentioned in at least three other sources that I read, and I already wasn't sure how much we should trust Mantleplumes.org (where it was originally cited). I also felt that, without an illustration, it would not be easy for a reader to visualise. All in all, I opted for removal. If someone found a better (and recent) journal article making the case for two tracks, then it could be re-inserted. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:25, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Summit observatories

During the current FAC, Iridia has commented "I'm going to modify some of the text of the last three paragraphs in Summit observatories - IMO it's oddly focussed on UH's viewpoint. Will work in my sandbox and move it across in paragraphs." I re-read it, and am wondering what the issue is. As I understand it, all astronomical observatory facilities lie within the MK Science Reserve which is managed by U Hawaii. Within that context, the regular references to UH appear appropriate. Given that there is a separate article covering the facilities in detail (Mauna Kea Observatory), I am wondering what more needs to be added to the article that is about the mountain, whilst avoiding adding what would be a list of all the telescopes now there. Iridia, can you clarify? hamiltonstone (talk) 23:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Certain degrees of emphasis, and questions that don't get answers in the current version. Why did it take until 1964 for Mauna Kea to have telescopes, when Haleakalā had an active program? Why was Kuiper doing site exploration, and why did UH then get the telescope funding, when their entire astronomy program at the time was in solar research? It's quite fascinating history. Plus, for example, there's no mention of the recent Keck outrigger telescope permit revocation, and as currently worded, the HST comparison is misleading. Things like that which I was hoping to fix.

I don't think a list of telescopes is necessary either. Iridia (talk) 01:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I was partly looking to see if there was anything i could help with (so it doesn't stall the FAC), but none of that rings bells for me and I know this is actually your field (and certainly not mine!). I'll leave it to you but ping me if you think there's anything i can do. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, it's there now - could you please see how it reads? I feel it skips a bit from 1973 to the present, but it would be discussing 'and then these three telescopes got funding, and then technology improved in the late 1980s and we built ten-metre telescopes': there's not much specifically about the mountain to go into. Iridia (talk) 04:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Climate

There's something odd about the climate data. i visited the source website and could not locate monthly precipitation data that matched the figures in the columns. I note an IP recently adjusted one of the figures. I'm reluctant to revert it as neither the number originally there, nor the one inserted by the IP, match the figure i found on the cited source webpage (which is itself, however, pretty complicated). Anyone got any thoughts? hamiltonstone (talk) 04:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

That's odd; where did those numbers come from, then? ResMar 05:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality?

Hello, all, and thanks for your hard work in making this into a featured article. However, I have a problem with the neutrality of the article, which makes unsupported claims about the sacredness of the mountain and the supposed controversy over same. I particularly object to the unwarranted emphasis on those points in the synopsis on the Wikipedia front page. This article supplies no verification to show that Mauna Kea is "the most sacred" of Hawaii's peaks (personally I thought that honor was reserved for Halemaumau crater on Kilauea, where Pele lives). Link #5, which supposedly verifies that the presence of the observatories on a "sacred peak" is controversial, just leads to a page of non-English characters. I could find no examples of the supposed controversy in the article. The front-page synopsis also talks about "view planes used to measure time", but I did not find that in the article. How did these unsupported claims get into a front page feature? Or is there support here in the article and I just missed it? Thanks --MelanieN (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Maintaining neutrality on the controversy is a tricky balancing act. The telescopes are undoubtedly controversial to a part of the Hawaiian population, due to the sacredness of the mountain; the trick is in documenting that accurately with good reliable sources of featured-article quality. And keeping that balance in the article is a constant task as various editors add material. For example, it is verifiable that the Keck outriggers were denied construction permission (mentioned in the Summit observatories section), but it is more difficult to document modern sacredness/practises etc, and I think that text about the view planes might have been unsupported by a sufficiently reliable source, then taken out of the main text, but not the article lead. (Reliable sourcing is not helped by the usual issues of trying to provide written documentation for possibly common knowledge in an oral-history culture. I'd be very happy if someone did a Masters thesis on this controversy...). Thank you also for spotting that Link #5 has succumbed to linkrot; I will go and fix it. I'll see if a citation can be found for the "most sacred" claim.

As for the main page synopsis, the main contributors to the article are normally notified by a robot a few days ahead, to perform exactly these checks for balance and accuracy on the synopsis, but this did not happen, to my and others' distinct lack of delight. Iridia (talk) 22:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I had that problem too. Reload the PDF; for some reason it occassionally fails to load. As for the front page synopsis, I had no hand in that. ResMar 22:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, whoah, what happened to that document? It's one of the article's main pillars o_o ResMar 22:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a possible replacement file, but for some reason it's not loading for me. Worst come to worst we can send it to the Google Books result and query the UH about it. ResMar 22:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I've loaded an alt link to deal with the linkrot for the Comprehensive Management Plan. I'm not having any trouble with getting the pdfs to load from this new address. Thanks Iridia for looking into the "most sacred" claim. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:38, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

I cannot find support for "most sacred". I have however found this rather impressive reference: Mauna Kea, the famous summit of the land (Mauna Kea, ka piko kaulana o ka ʻāina). Here it says that Mauna Kea is the first-born of Wakea/Papa, "sacred first-born of Kea" (p. 9, bottom), and sibling to the ancestor of all Hawaiian people, which is more accurate (and perhaps more interesting). Iridia (talk) 04:14, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Right before the article went live on the front page, I tried to balance some of the religious POV that had crept into the article in the last few months. Unfortuately, no one (including me) carefully checked the front page blurb for NPOV and RS, so it was shown to the world with some unsupported, slanted language. :-( —hike395 (talk) 01:46, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Disappointing that the bot no longer runs, or is is malfunctioning, or whatever the hell it is that it is doing that it shouldn't be doing. In retrospect we should have dialed 1-800-ADMIN, but it's off the main page, now. This is why we should always have a bot. ResMar 03:20, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

So who DOES write the front-page summary? All the work you guys put into bringing this article to FA status - and yet you weren't consulted about the mainpage paragraph that everybody saw? That's a bummer. (You can tell I have never worked on a Featured Article - but having worked on Good Articles and seen how the reviewers parse every detail, I was surprised that so much seemed to be a little off in the mainpage blurb.) --MelanieN (talk) 03:51, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

The TFA director, Raul654, or his delegate, Dabomb87. I have left Raul a note. Iridia (talk) 04:14, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Religious aspects as the most sacred mountain to the Native Hawaiian people

I read the above and I am not sure what the issue is but agree, as a Feature Article, we need all claims that might be challenged to be referenced with reliable sources. We also need to balance the article with the due weight of any religious aspects to their proper and accurate degree. Having said that, Mauna Kea is the most sacred mountain in Hawaii to the Native Hawaiian people.^[5]^[6]^[7] It is also certainly easily referenced to even reliable book sources that there has been controversy surrounding the development of the observatories on Mauna Kea since 1970s.^[8]^[9]

I have added a section on the most notable protest to date when it became obvious it was more than notable enough to summarize here with proper sources. I am doing a great deal of research on the subject of Mauna Kea and the Thirty Meter Telescope for Wikipedia. Since this article is FA I am moving slowly and carefully as I would with any FA article. The subject of large telescopes on Wikipedia could also use some expanding from my reading as well as the articles about Hawaiian religion, especially the deities revolving around Mauna Kea as they are probably now beginning to receive higher page views.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:13, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

^ Cite error: The named reference usgs-2007 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference Watson was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ "The Emperor and Hawaiian Volcanic Chains: How well do they fit the plume hypothesis?". MantlePlumes.org. 11 March 2006. Retrieved 1 April 2009. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
^ Clague, David A. (1987). "The Hawaiian-Emperor Volcanic Chain - Geological Evolution". In Decker, Robert W.; Wright, Thomas L.; Straffer, Peter H. (eds.). Volcanism in Hawaii: papers to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the founding of the Hawaii Volcano Observatory (PDF). Professional Paper 1350. Vol. 1. Washington, D.C.: Volcano Hazards Team, United States Geological Survey, United States Government Printing Office. p. 32. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |author2first= ignored (|author-first2= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |author2last= ignored (|author-last2= suggested) (help)
^ Sabine Hendreschke. Menehune Mana The Spiritual Essence of Hawaii. Sabine Hendreschke. p. 43. GGKEY:PDSF05H9RAT.
^ Martin Gray; Graham Hancock (2007). Sacred Earth: Places of Peace and Power. Sterling Pub.Company. p. 254. ISBN 978-1-4027-4737-3.
^ Luci Yamamoto; Alan Tarbell (2005). Hawai'i: The Big Island. Lonely Planet. p. 137. ISBN 978-1-74059-691-6.
^ Ann Malaspina (2007). The Ethnic and Group Identity Movements: Earning Recognition. Infobase Publishing. p. 146. ISBN 978-1-4381-0633-5.
^ The Outrigger Telescopes Project, Mauna Kea Science Reserve: Environmental Impact Statement. 2005. p. 142.

Parking sources

Hawaiian legends of volcanoes: (mythology) collected and translated from the ... By William Drake Westervelt

Proper spelling of Maunakea

A quote: "The UH Hilo School of Hawaiian Language recommends the one-word spelling, and recently the Office of Maunakea Management started using the one-word spelling."

http://www2.ifa.hawaii.edu/newsletters/article.cfm?a=690&n=55

http://www.imiloahawaii.org/122/about-hawaiian-words

March 1, 2015

As I understand it, the proper noun is Maunakea but it is officially named as Mauna Kea. It may be worth looking into this further for more details and explanation in the article and a discussion as to whether or not it should be re-named.--Mark Miller (talk) 11:29, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Maunakea is the spelling recommended by the The University of Hawaii at Hilo College of Hawaiian Language ^[1] but historical signs, documents and maps still refer to "Mauna Kea". Many people try to use the one-word form wherever possible and relevant. I don't think it bears on this article, at least not yet. kanoa (talk) 03:12, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Mauna a Wākea has not been established as a traditional name for the mountain. The first reference I'm aware of is in the genealogy chant prepared for Liholiho circa 1797 (O Hanau Ka Mauna) but it also refers to "Mauna a kea". Please find a reliable citation for this claim. kanoa (talk) 03:12, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Your source for "Mauna a Wākea" as a traditional name is a Dictionary of Minor Planets. How can that be considered authoritative source for traditional Hawaiian place names? Asserting that this is a traditional name is controversial (many people disagree) and the cited source is not strong enough to support the claim. 22:49, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

^ http://www.malamamaunakea.org/articles/9/Maunakea. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

Questionable sourcing

Uhm.....I just replaced a very common misunderstanding about Captain James Cook. As an "exceptional claim" I have provided "exceptional references" in the form of an early historic mention as well as current academic mention. However, what referenced the claim that Cook was the first foreigner in Hawaii was the "Institute for Astronomy – University of Hawaii (January 2009). "Mauna Kea Comprehensive Management Plan: UH Management Areas" (PDF). Hawai`i State Department of Land and Natural Resources. Retrieved August 19, 2010"'. I am not even sure why the additional convenience links were added. It is also heavily overused. This report, published by the state government agency DLNR has relevance only to what it directly involves and only if there are no stronger sources available. Relying this much on a report directly involved in the planning, development and approval of the observatories on Mauna Kea, seems to be a little odd. Certainly the source is reliable for some claims, especially about the planning and development of the specific sites, but not for historic reference.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:27, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

@Mark Miller: I wrote with what I had on hand—that was the source of convenience for me, and assuming to be of adequate quality. No, I did not make a comprehensive literature review to pick out the best sources for every sub-topic at the time. No, I don't think that's something to reasonably expect of an editor, though I recognize that literature reviews and the tiny fraction of people willing to do them is where the project, in general, is going. I took on this project working with what I could most easily find online. ResMar 03:21, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for replying! I didn't know who placed it or why so I didn't want to make any assumptions on the reason it was placed, but wanted to be sure and make note that I was going to be replacing the inline citations in a number of places from this source for others that would be of higher quality. I want to be sure and communicate my reasoning on a FA article. Thanks for your work on this by the way.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:27, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

By the way, I have used these types of historic backgrounds from reports. They can be useful sometimes when the history they discover is not documented well.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:30, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I removed the part about James Cook being the "third foreigner" to visit Hawaii. I agree that the claim that he was the first is foreigner is false and shortsighted (other pacific islanders were also "foreigners") but the whole thing is irrelevant to the article and distracts from the subject matter with claims that are contentious. kanoa (talk) 03:24, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I added it back. It has relevance and is long standing content that, is not an exceptional claim. It is actually well documented and has been for years. This purpose is the human history on the island and the mauna. Please do not remove sourced content.--Mark Miller (talk) 07:13, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

How is it relevant? The source you cite for three foreigners includes Pa'ao which would imply that every Polynesian settler is also a foreigner and there would have been hundreds of foreigners prior to Cook. That's still irrelevant to the purpose of noting early written observations of the mountain. Why not move this to the article for James Cook? kanoa (talk) 22:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

No. This article is not about "noting early written observations of the mountain". If we were limited to such there would a lot less articles on Wikipedia. We are summarizing the facts of the human history of the mountain and to do that we note the human history we know of on the island in quick fashion without too much detail. Leaving it out is limiting the information and is not an improvement to the article.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:36, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

[usgs-2007-1] Cite error: The named reference usgs-2007 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Watson-2] Cite error: The named reference Watson was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[3] "The Emperor and Hawaiian Volcanic Chains: How well do they fit the plume hypothesis?". MantlePlumes.org. 11 March 2006. Retrieved 1 April 2009. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

[4] Clague, David A. (1987). "The Hawaiian-Emperor Volcanic Chain - Geological Evolution". In Decker, Robert W.; Wright, Thomas L.; Straffer, Peter H. (eds.). Volcanism in Hawaii: papers to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the founding of the Hawaii Volcano Observatory (PDF). Professional Paper 1350. Vol. 1. Washington, D.C.: Volcano Hazards Team, United States Geological Survey, United States Government Printing Office. p. 32. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |author2first= ignored (|author-first2= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |author2last= ignored (|author-last2= suggested) (help)

[Hendreschke-5] Sabine Hendreschke. Menehune Mana The Spiritual Essence of Hawaii. Sabine Hendreschke. p. 43. GGKEY:PDSF05H9RAT.

[GrayHancock2007-6] Martin Gray; Graham Hancock (2007). Sacred Earth: Places of Peace and Power. Sterling Pub.Company. p. 254. ISBN 978-1-4027-4737-3.

[YamamotoTarbell2005-7] Luci Yamamoto; Alan Tarbell (2005). Hawai'i: The Big Island. Lonely Planet. p. 137. ISBN 978-1-74059-691-6.

[Malaspina2007-8] Ann Malaspina (2007). The Ethnic and Group Identity Movements: Earning Recognition. Infobase Publishing. p. 146. ISBN 978-1-4381-0633-5.

[9] The Outrigger Telescopes Project, Mauna Kea Science Reserve: Environmental Impact Statement. 2005. p. 142.

[10] ttp://www.malamamaunakea.org/articles/9/Maunakea. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

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