Talk:Maud de Braose

Maud's father's name

It had been commonly assumed by historians that Reginald de St. Valery was the name of Maud de Braose's father. A 19th century French publication, however, Extract E:Histoire des Ducs de Normandie et des Rois d'Angleterre, derived from a 13th century document, states that Bernard de St. Valéry was Maud's actual father. Douglas Richardson, Kimball G. Everingham also say this in Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families.--jeanne (talk) 10:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. This reference is the best evidence for the correct parentage of Maud de St Valery. I think we should remove the reference to Reginald and replace with Bernard. (Perhaps making reference to the incorrect previous sources.) - The idea that she was born in Bramber is totally unfounded too and should be removed. --Doug (talk) 11:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The statement that Maud had 8 children is also suspect. Prof. F.M. Powicke in his article "Loretta, Countess of Leicester" (Published in 'Historical Essays in Honour of James Tait', 1933)draws attention to the Braose genealogy given in the 13th century MS(British Library, Cotton Julius D, x). This details sixteen children of Maud. See http://freespace.virgin.net/doug.thompson/BraoseWeb/family/maudsv.html for details.--Doug (talk) 11:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The Braose webpage mentioned above has moved and is now at http://douglyn.co.uk/BraoseWeb/family/maudsv.html Doug (at Wiki) 16:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I think Bernard should stay with the references I have given because the mention of Reginald is too confusing to readers. It has been proven that Bernard was her father's name with a document that was dated 1220. As for Bramber, if you want to remove that go ahead. In the meantime, I'll check for good sources which give her birthplace as Bramber. As for 16 children, it's possible, but seeing as 8 are recorded, I'd say the others probably died in early infancy so are not mentioned in the usual de Braose genealogies. However, If you have all of the correct 16 names, then go ahead and list them in the article. Are there dates as well?--jeanne (talk) 14:21, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Doug, I have just had a look at the link you gave. Very interesting. It lists a Bernard as her youngest child.--jeanne (talk) 14:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeanne - I've made the changes and added one child, Flandrina. I also deleted the "only" from the phrase "only child of Bernard.." since there are several brothers and sisters documented for Maud.--Doug (talk) 11:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

If she had had brothers, they had to have died young, because she was her father's heiress. As for sisters, they would have shared the inheritance with Maud. Seeing as she inherited the lot, they must have also died young--jeanne (talk) 12:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeanne - I can't think what makes you believe this. Bernard's heir was his son Thomas. Maud had a marriage portion (Tetbury) from her father's estates but inherited nothing. For a brief description of the Valery descent line I quote the text from the Victoria County History of Oxfordshire's piece on the manor of Yarnton .

"Roger d'Ivri (d. 1089) was succeeded by his sons Roger (d. by 1112) and Geoffrey (d. by 1120). By the mid 12th century Yarnton, with other d'Ivri lands, had become part of the honor of St. Valery, of which it formed one of the five demesne manors. It was held successively by Reynold of St. Valery (d. c. 1162), his son Bernard (d. 1191), and Bernard's son Thomas (d. 1219). Thomas's daughter and heir Annora married Robert, count of Dreux, but their English lands were seized in 1226 by Henry III, who gave them in 1227 to his brother Richard, earl of Cornwall (d. 1272).'

The same can be found in many other places.

We should be editing the line about Maud inheriting those castles. I have never seen Costain's book, but, if he said that, he's wrong. The castles mentioned are all part of the Braose holdings before Maud married into the family. --Doug (talk) 17:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Could that be a clue as to te identity of Maud's mother? Maybe she was a de Braose? Anyway, what do about her castles?--jeanne (talk) 17:24, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Hang about, the article on Wikipedia says Hay came into the de Braose family around 1165-time of her marriage to de Braose.--jeanne (talk) 17:31, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Reginald was her grandfather. The article should state this fact.

Doug, you are absolutely correct in saying that those castles were not Maud's, so I have removed it from the article. Thanks for your help. How does it loook now? It appears Thomas was her half-brother by Bernard's second marriage. Giles and Laurette were her full siblings. Should we list her siblings in the article?--jeanne (talk) 07:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you think Tetbury came from Maud's mother? I believe her mother came from a Marcher family. What's your opinion on the subject? Also Hay came into the de Braose fmily in 1165. Do you think Maud's mother had connections to Hay? Maud herself was always known as Lady of Hay There was a family called de La Hay.--jeanne (talk) 09:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Tetbury was originally part of the lands of Roger d'Ivry. It followed the same descent as I copied for Yarnton above, until it was granted to William de Braose as part of the marriage settlement for Maud. Hay descended to the Braoses through Bertha, heiress of Miles, Earl of Hereford who had acquired it through his marriage to Sibyl de Neufmarché. Maud became known as Lady of Hay because she successfully directed the defence of hay against the Welsh.--Doug (talk) 21:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

That last sentence should be included in the article. If you've got the source go ahead and add it.--jeanne (talk) 05:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Jeanne, you seem to have done that OK. I've changed the attribution of 'Blood Feuds". Lynda Denyer and Doug Thompson work together on the Braose website. Lynda wrote the narrative pages that you refer to. --Doug (talk) 13:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for making the correction. Is there any info or clues as to the identity of Maud's mother apart from Matilda? She is really a mystery. I'm banking that she was a de Braose.--jeanne (talk) 13:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I have not been able to find any information about Bernard's wife Matilda. I feel that she is unlikely to be a Braose because there were few Braoses around at the time who were not too closely related to William to make the marriage of William and Maud permissible. Also, the "Histoire des Ducs ...." relates that Maud was born in France which makes a mother from a French family a bit more likely in my mind.--Doug (talk) 12:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

If Maud was born in France, the article should state this. Bernard's second wife was certainly French.--jeanne (talk) 12:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Siblings

I have included Thomas in the article but didn't add her other siblings, as Thomas seems to be the most notable of the lot. Thanks again for your improvements to the article.--jeanne (talk) 09:29, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Glad to help. I'm trying to keep the de Braose info correct on Wikipedia. It's one thing I know about.--Doug (talk) 23:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You certainly do know a lot about said family. I'm glad you pointed out my error as regards to Maud's castles and siblings.--jeanne (talk) 05:27, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Lordships

Brecknock is an older alternative form of Brecon. Glamorgan is the Welsh county which contained many lordships, Abergavenny being the major Braose holding there. Re-ordered the last bit because the three castles of Skenfrith, Grosmont and Whitecastle were regarded as a single lordship and Briouze is rather separate.--Doug (talk) 08:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Burial place

Is there any existing document which indicates Maud's place of burial?--jeanne (talk) 06:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Who was Reginald de St. Valery's father?--jeanne (talk) 09:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

[MAUD'S DEATH] I wonder if the author of this piece would share with us the document which states that Maud and her son were walled in at Corfe Castle. I has found no proof of this although I know it is a popular belief and, if so, should better be indicated as such, rather than as a fact. The piece is otherwise very interesting. Mugginsx (talk) 18:46, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I added the source which relates the circumstances of Maud's death. It is the Histoire des de Ducs de Normandie et des Rois d'Angleterre, which is a 13th century document published in France in 1840. You were right to ask for the source, seeing as the circumstances of her death were rather, shall we say, unusual and out of the ordinary. I should have added the citation before.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 02:14, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Maud's descriptors

Maud was lady of many properties. (The list of her husband's lordships is given in the Family and Marriage section.) I have reduced her descriptor to Lady of Bramber since that lordship took precedence over most of the others as Bramber was an honour, held directly from the crown. Doug (at Wiki) 17:07, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Dates of children

Jeanne, I am sure you know that Cawley's Medieval Lands is not regarded as a reliable source on Wikipedia except where he cites other sources himself. Even so this reference is not a source for the information given in the Maud de Braose article. Here are some issues

Matilda de Braose (1172 – 29 December 1210) Cawley gives no birthdate and a death at 21 Dec 1209 (with a source)

William de Braose (1175 – 1210) Cawley gives no birthdate and a death in 1210 well sourced

Margaret de Braose (1177 after 1255) Cawley gives birth [1175/85] and in his notes says "Her birth date range is estimated ". Again death OK.

Reginald de Braose (1178 9 June 1228) Cawley - no birthdate , death [5 May 1227/9 Jun 1228] unsourced.

Giles de Braose, Bishop of Hereford (1180 – 11 November 1215) Cawley - no birthdate, death 13 Nov 1215 unsourced.

John de Braose (c.1181 1205) Cawley - no birthdate, death "before 1224" although his notes imply "before 27 May 1205" (sourced)

Loretta no dates in article Cawley gives death 1266 or after (unsourced)

Annora de Braose (1190 – 1241) Cawley - no birthdate, death "after 26 Jan 1241" (unsourced)

Flandrina de Braose (no dates) is not mentioned by Cawley although he does mention a son Philip whom he completely confuses with a Philip of an earlier generation.

So it looks like this section needs a complete reworking with references to some reliable sources. In particular, not a single birthdate given in the article has a source (as is fairly usual with medieval families) and they should be removed. Doug (at Wiki) 16:35, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I have done the rework necessary now.Doug (at Wiki) 12:29, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks great. Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:48, 30 September 2014 (UTC)