Talk:Matthew Webb/GA1
GA Review
[edit]The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Nominator: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 11:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs) 13:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
I'll review this over the next few days :) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hey It is a wonderful world, not sure if you saw my comments here. Could you do a copyedit to make the prose more concise before I continue so I'm not repeating myself? Thanks Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ah yes, my apologies. I assumed this page would be in my watchlist but it isn't. I'll copyedit today. It is a wonderful world (talk) 08:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Rollinginhisgrave I have condensed it significantly (-9000+) bytes. Let me know if you would like me to condense further. It is a wonderful world (talk) 14:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ah yes, my apologies. I assumed this page would be in my watchlist but it isn't. I'll copyedit today. It is a wonderful world (talk) 08:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Prose and content
[edit]- The early life section can be cut right down. It is mostly sourced to a local area's heritage website. Street names can be cut, as the audience for the source is locals who know the streets, so it has significance for them, but not for Wikipedia readers. Or, it's relevant that he had thirteen siblings, the gender breakdown isn't.
One story that Webb remembered well into adult life was Daniel in the lions' den.
cut this.Webb
cut this, or swap fearless for bravewas fearless andenjoyedWebb also enjoyed
painting pictures of animals andreading stories of the sea.He was particularly influenced by the book Old Jack by W. H. G. Kingston, which was one of his inspirations to become a seaman.
make this more concise. You're repeating information.it was decided by him and his parents that Webb should leave school and join the Merchant Service,[15] and so he applied and was accepted
active voice, a lot more conciseIn just his first few days on the ship, he felt homesick and hated the harsh living conditions, saying "I was hardly afloat before I wished myself back again to my comfortable home".
the quote is too much.On the Conway, Webb was taught both traditional school classes (English, mathematics, history etc.) and specialised classes in nautical skills (map reading, astronomy, sailing etc.)
much of this sentence is redundant, since you say that he did both of these as part of his daily routine. You can add the parentheses to that sentence and lose the rest.
Going to leave this here for now. I hope you can copyedit the article in light of this. I've read through some of the source "The Crossing", and I can see that the sources you're drawing from are popular and so there's a lot of extraneous information. But the prose needs to be concise to meet WP:GACR#1a. Good luck!
Sources
[edit]- Link The Crossing
Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Restarting
Prose and content
[edit]Born in Dawley, Shropshire Webb
WP:GEOCOMMA
- Fixed
public subscription
what is this?
- Changed to "public donation"
: In 1877
lowercase after colon. Reword this sentence to avoid the colon, use active voice, and put the dates at the end of clauses, i.e.In 1877, he completed a 40 mile swim from Gravesend to Woolwich along the Thames,
→completing a 40 mile swim from Gravesend to Woolwich along the Thames in 1877,
. You should also only use three examples maximum when summarizing his achievements here.
- Fixed lowercase and dates at end of clauses, cut down to three examples. I was already in active voice though?
Despite these
swimmingaccomplishments
- Fixed
you can merge this sentence with the previous with a comma.where Webb developed his swimming abilities
- Fixed
The Webb family were Anglicans,
you should just use Anglican as an adjective somewhere to describe the family, it doesn't need its own sentence.so Webb was familiar with the stories of the Bible.
- Fixed
from drowning
in the Severn
- Fixed
right arm
is there significance to it being on his right?
- I kept this in because it was used to identify his body in Niagara, but I cut that bit so there is no need for it now.
12-year-old brother Thomas
a different brother named Thomas? haha
- Yeah so confusing
- gloss Aden, Varne Lightvessel
- Not sure what you mean
". Rather, you should "
reword this into the quote so it's not in wikivoice
- Wasn't possible to reword into the quote, but I made got rid of "rather, you should" to make it more neutral.
Webb had to stay with the Rathbone Brothers until his contract expired in 1865, but as soon as it ended
this can be more concise; you have to stay with someone if you're in a contract with them, you don't need to spell this out
- Condensed
He even competed with a dog from Newfoundland to see who could swim the longest in the rough sea. After an hour, Webb was still swimming but the dog was exhausted and was rescued from the water.
even is editorializing; format this as "in one anecdote"
- Fixed
Yet another another one of Webb's stunts
it feels strange to describe this as a stunt
- I agree, I removed this whole sentence to make it more concise
until
it was cut andthe propeller was freed
- Fixed
, and said he had a flashback of his whole life
cut
- Fixed
banded together
more encyclopedic tone
- Changed to "collaborated"
J. B. Johnson
redlink or cut
- Redlinked, I have a draft on him in one of my sandboxes
begin practising
practice
- Fixed
Watson was surprised by Webb's return
ambiguous whether return from Varne Lightvessel or Dover
- Fixed
and magnificent sweep of his ponderous legs
cut
- Fixed
the elements
euphemistic
- Reworded sentence to make more concise and fix this
Webb always said that Boyton was "an obvious fraud".
rw to avoid "always said that"; too informal. Attribute a time if possible
- Cut "always" source does not attribute time.
On
the3 July
- Fixed
, with newspapers such as Bell's Life, Land and Water, The Daily News and The Globe all reporting on it
cut
- Fixed
Webb's next swim was from Dover to Ramsgate
do you know how far this is?
- Twenty miles, added
Despite heavy rain, he set off just before 10 a.m. with the tide in his favor
but the rain against him.
- Fixed
by Dr. Henry Smith
is he notable?
- Nope, cut
The report was once again printed in Land and Water, and was extremely detailed.
what report?
- Added "medical" to make it clear it was the medical report
called Frank Buckland
cut
- Fixed
The intent was to shield his eyes from the splashing of the salt water, however they only made the problem worse.
this is a strange sentence; it is obvious they are an attempt to shield his eyes given they are goggles and it is unclear how they could make the problem worse
- Cut this, replaced with "but they did not work". The source wasn't very clear, but I should have summarised more.
Webb swam until he could not swim any longer, boarding the boat only fifteen minutes before the conditions became so bad that he would not have been able to.
reword for more encyclopedic tone
- Reworded to "Webb boarded the boat fifteen minutes before the weather conditions would have stopped him doing so"
Captain Toms
just call him Toms
- Fixed all occurrences
Lugger Ann
with the rest of the crewfrom
- Fixed
the captain Pittock
is "the" appropriate here?
- Nope, removed it
Webb began his
secondattempt by diving
- Fixed
- If you're going to describe the crew in the swim section, and it's the same as it was in the plans, you can eliminate duplicate mentions in the planning section
- Removed duplicates
- Cut the Rule Brittanica quote
- Fixed
After approximately 21 hours and 40 minutes
is there a reason you use "approximately" here?
- Changed to "After just under 22 hours". Sources were quite vague on this, but the DNB says specifically it was under 22 hours which is more precise.
, completing the first successful cross-channel swim without artificial aid
cut
- Fixed
- Cut the return to England section in half
- Merge the attention sections into one.
Mr R. H. Horne
→ Richard Henry Horne
- Fixed
- The swimming career section does not need all these subsections, they can be merged, especially when they are only three sentences long.
determined to try a second time the following year
try againwas exceedingly generous
this is puffery. Attribute, explain or dampenhad fallen into financial trouble
this reads as euphemistiche brought his feats to America for the first time
puffery again.- correct the link to Manhattan Beach
and arriving three hours early at Manhattan Beach
the crew or Webb?and retired to bed
euphemisticOn August 22
elsewhere you use DDMMYYYY. Same with September 6, 14and Boyton got off to a very fast start. Unfortunately for Webb, he got a severe cramp which ended his race, while Boyton simply cruised to the finish.
reword this, it is too informalindicating that he was probably biased
cut or attribute (preferably latter)and Hartley later said he had felt like he was going to get cramps as he did
more clarity on pronouns, ambiguous use of "he"Back in England on 27 April 1880
this is when he returned to England or when he got married? Either way, more formal.Webb made his health even worse
don't blame him so much, just Webb's health worsenedbusied himself inventing new things
this is quite vague, could you clarify?Driven by his worsening financial situation and desire for fame
attribute
- Removed for conciseness
with Webb maintaining the intention to complete the stunt that many observers considered suicidal.
too informal, the first part also feels redundant given the previous sentence referring to his intent to complete the stunt.
- Removed for conciseness
Beckwith and Watson tried
give his full name given you've just referred to a different Beckwith.
- Fixed
Webb made an impromptu plan and called a press conference to explain it
a plan for the swim or logistics? What is this referring to?
- Removed for conciseness
Webb's final conversation was with the boat operator Jack McCloy as he was rowed to the rapids. They conversed about Webb's family, his channel crossing and his swimming exhibitions since then. McCloy tried to dissuade him one final time, but Webb only waved, smiled and said "goodbye boy", before exiting the boat.
cut this in half at least.
- Significantly reduced
- Could you explain what the Whirlpool Rapids are so I can understand better what it means to swim through them?
and then at 22:00 he stopped the search offering a $100 reward for whoever could find Webb's body
awkward wordingbut Kyle told everyone
who is everyone?- You refer to Madeleine as "his wife" a lot, can you refer to her as Madeline?
died from drowning
drownedThe body had a cut on the forehead, which caused people to assume he was knocked out on a submerged rock, and then died from drowning.[1] However, the autopsy revealed that the cut was made after his death,
is it important to mention this brief speculation of what the cut said about his death?His widow and family were distraught upon hearing the news, and his widow said that she hadn't even entertained the idea that he might not complete it.
cut thisThe Land and Water put shame on the risks
put shame is very awkward wordingIn January, Webb's widow [returned to the burial site to rebury the body with a proper funeral.]
reburied Webb with another funeral- The Legacy#Family section can be cut. Perhaps the wife remarrying can be kept. (WP:NOTGENEOLOGY)
mentioned how much good Webb had done by inspiring the whole country to go swimming, with the London Baths overflowing with people, and many others swimming in open bodies of water
inappropriate use of wikivoice, attribute all this. MOS:SAIDand many new swimming pools were opened with the Baths and Washhouses Act allowing local authorities to build them
what is the relevance to this re; Webb?Shortly after Webb's death, several periodical swimming championships were started
because of Webb?Webb expressed in his lifetime that he wanted to inspire more people to learn to swim, and even wrote his own book called The Art of Swimming,[1] though this was mostly written by Arthur Payne.
and this impacted swimming?was interviewed. She spoke highly of Webb, and
cutIt took thirty-six years... four-way crossing by Sarah Thomas in 2019.
I am unsure why this is in the section Legacy#Impact on swimmingSome time after Webb's death,
cutproduced it around the same time that the Captain Webb Memorial in Dawley was unveiled
cutThe Baldwin Bros., a photography firm in Dawley, produced
bring this to the start of the sentence, after "in 1909".Webb Crescent and the Captain...
this paragraph doesn't have to repeat "are named after him"- Cultural references unclear why this section isn't under Legacy
NME single of the week
could you expand on this?initially under the working title The Greatest Englishman,
cutJustin Hardy
redlink if passes GNG, else cut. Same with Jemma.
Suggestions
[edit]- When you're doing blockquotes, use Template:blockquote
- Use inflation for
Webb bet £100
that he should he should completely
→him to
23rd October 1909
previously you have not used the rd/th etc after dates
Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Images
[edit]Some of these are unnecessary and don't add much as they don't illustrate the content: Rathbones, Stanhope, Tavern, Breaststroke, Thames
- I removed them all except the Stanhope medal, since it provides a nice visualization of the medal Webb was given.
Captions
Boat crew feeding
MatthewWebb hot coffee
- Fixed
Looking downriver at the Niagara rapids and gorge, from the Whirlpool Rapids Bridge across the Niagara River
is this part needed?
- Removed
Portrait of
CaptainWebb
- Fixed
Neutral
[edit]This is the largest issue at the moment, hopefully with the comments above this will be addressed but I'll have another read through.
Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Rollinginhisgrave (talk · contribs), thank you so much for your detailed review. It's clear I need to work a lot on the conciseness and neutrality of the article, which stems from me needing to improve my writing in these areas. The scale of improvement needed seems to be beyond the scope of a GAR timescale though.
- Would you oppose closing the review, which would allow me time to:
- Address all the points properly
- Improve the conciseness and neutrality in my writing to GA standard
- Rewrite a lot of the article (especially later parts) with better writing skills
- Then after all of that, I can submit a GAN again and hopefully the process would be shorter and easier for the reviewer, and the article will be better as a result. It is a wonderful world (talk) 09:31, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
- I can of course do that. And you can just drop a note on my talk when you repost it to GAN. Thankyou for your work on this article. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)