Talk:Matt Petgrave

This article was nominated for deletion on 14 November 2023. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Should we be making the claims on this page?

I know that everyone "knows" that Petgrave is the suspect that the South Yorkshire Police arrested, but the police have not released the name of the suspect so technically this is speculation. Snickerdoodle12 (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think he should be named. It probably was Petgrave who was arrested, but we don't know this as a fact. 2A0E:1D47:8A00:8400:E0F5:DBA4:BE25:73B2 (talk) 17:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's the thing.

English Police probably didn't name him likely because of privacy laws there in the UK. I don't know if that information is going to be released or not however given the nature of the incident it wouldn't pass anyone that it was in fact Petgrave, at the same time it's not like we can really say anything until more information is disclosed for public knowledge.

I would say wait until there are more sources. DioShiba (talk) 18:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What is the last column in the career stats?

Any description would be beneficial. Pewtey (talk) 22:26, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Number of games played, I think. DS (talk) 00:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Possible pre-2023 sources for expansion

These are some sources for possible expansion from the period before the 2023 incident: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0g1mwxh

https://chl.ca/ohl-attack/matt-petgrave-named-ohl-player-of-the-week/

https://prohockeynews.com/defensive-pairing-back-with-steelers/

https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/ice-hockey/not-everyone-appears-to-be-a-fan-of-sheffield-steelers-star-matt-petgrave-3878459

https://theahl.com/stats/player/6947

https://www.nbcsports.com/nhl/matt-petgrave/00000188-9cf1-da6b-abd8-fcfd9a560240 https://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/6234/

https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/players/3140872/matt-petgrave/

https://www.floridaeverblades.com/news/2020/12/everblades-add-defenseman-matt-petgrave

https://www.uticacomets.com/news/detail/canucks-recall-brisebois-comets-sign-matt-petgrave

https://capitalsoutsider.com/2013/09/05/catching-matt-petgrave/

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/steelers-top-defensive-pairing-signs-050000047.html

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/1648804/Matt-Walls-scary-crash-fan-blood-Commonwealth-Games

https://theathletic.com/206515/2018/02/02/in-one-my-four-insane-days-trapped-in-minor-hockey-hell-with-the-brampton-beast/ Topjur01 (talk) 00:11, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicting reports

The Florida Everblades's website states that his plus-minus with the Brampton Beast in 2019-20 was +16. However, eliteprospects.com states that his plus minus in the same season was +5. The Everblades incorrectly stated that he lead the Beast in points and assists among defenseman, when one can go to eliteprospects and see that this is not the case. He was trailing T.J Melancon in both statlines. If anyone is wanting to add any additional citations to the page, I urge that you use eliteprospects.com for his stats. IncompA 19:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An update

on Petgrave being charged for manslaughter should be mentioned. 107.10.129.126 (talk) 13:18, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Petgrave has not been charged. Police announced the arrest of a person on suspicion of manslaughter. They did not not the suspect, per UK law, and have not charged them.

Lazarus Caplan, Anna (November 15, 2023). "Man Arrested on Suspicion of Manslaughter in Hockey Player Adam Johnson's Death Released on Bail". People (magazine). Retrieved November 20, 2023.

Wikipedia follows what is reported in reliable sources and does not synthesize information or make inferences. Consider also Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons. Minnemeeples (talk) 16:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He actually *was* charged. https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/adam-johnson-death-matt-petgrave-released-on-bail-after-being-charged-with-manslaughter-of-ex-penguins-player/107.10.129.126 (talk) 17:02, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That content does not say that the suspect was charged, only the headline, which is incorrect and misleading. He was released "pending further inquiries" as per this AP report. Nthep (talk) 17:19, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"That content does not say that the suspect was charged" is literal disinformation. It very clearly does, in fact, say that he was charged. Do you think CBS is not a reliablsle source Oh wait, what you think is irrelevant as CBS *is* considered a reliable source. I said that he was charged, I brought a reliable source. You are simply arguing, futilely, for reasons unknown. 107.10.129.126 (talk) 00:56, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You raise an interesting point, here, unregistered user, but the modern practice of the UK cops is to maintain a suspect's anonymity unless/until they are charged. In England, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) (regional CPS staff serve much like the local DA in the US) make a charging decision, not the cops. The cops and CPS will certainly make an announcement when/if someone is charged in this case. There is really no possibility CBS is correct, although of course CBS is not a deprecated source here. It is much more likely one of these things which get a little lost in translation sometimes. The interesting point you raise, however, is whether Wikipedia articles should or do respect local law outside the US. At present, they do not and so on that basis there seems no reason not to mention the name of the person arrested and released on bail so far without charge but, frankly, clearly a suspect since they would be named in the US. My own view is that Wikipedia should respect local laws in democratic states like the UK but of course that become complex when dealing with a non-democratic state with weak rule of law and order or poor systems of justice and punishment. Hope this is useful. All the best, Emmentalist (talk) 11:08, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your input here, Emmentalist. It's always fun learning about the customs of other countries. And this policy pickle is also interesting - I personally prefer a more codified "one fits all" system on the English version of Wikipedia for consistency sake so that possibly archaic rulings in an underdeveloped country don't get archived in an untrue way, but there is a lot of nuance. Very intriguing stuff. 107.10.129.126 (talk) 14:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor. If he had been charged, it would be all over the press, not just CBS, and he would have been named and we would be adding all the information to any relevant Wikipedia articles. CBS made a mistake here, it happens even with the most reliable sources. The suspect was questioned on suspicion of manslaughter and released on bail while the police make further investigations. They have not, at this stage, charged the person with anything. This is entirely normal in the UK. Nthep (talk) 13:18, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It wouldn't be the first time CBS got something wrong, although I'm still not convinced they did get something wrong here. Charged does not mean convicted. Varying sources give multiple accounts of what happened once Petgrave was questioned by the police. Also, bailing out, at least here in the States, does not mean free forever. It just means you are no longer confined to a jail cell. This could be different in the UK, I don't know their policies. But the reliable source did say he was charged. A wikipedia user doesn't trump a reliable source, typically. 107.10.129.126 (talk) 13:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

107.10.129.126, please consider that a headline is not a source. The CBS Sports article you mentioned does not use the word "charged" in the article body. Headlines are typically not written by the article's author, but are often written by an editor or another person. That is why it is not good practice to quote a headline.

Wikipedia is not censored, so UK law and the even the personal opinions of editors such as Emmentalist are not the issue here in terms of what to add into an article. If a preponderance of reliable sources said that Petgrave was arrested and charged, the article will follow the sources and say that. Instead, the very best reliable sources have not made those inferences, and Wikipedia editors are not to synthesize information. The Petgrave article has an indented link to the part of the article about Adam Johnson's death with more context for the reader there, including an update on the investigation. Please consider that Laws of the United Kingdom are not the same as the Laws of the United States. Criminal processes, terminology, etc. may differ. Consider also that this is article is in an English language Wiki, not a United States Wiki. That can make writing Wikipedia articles a challenge as the audience is global.

We have to also consider that this article is a biography of a living person. We make special care to strictly follow what the reliable source say. I hope that is helpful context. Thanks for the discussion, my friend. Minnemeeples (talk) 16:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See my comment above, @Nthep. All the best, Emmentalist (talk) 11:11, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A final thought on this article for now (which applies to a couple of related articles) is that the comments by the various parties to the tragic incident *might* not be in order here. These parties will have interests here since there will certainly be civil legal issues around compensation and that is not reflected in this article.All the best, Emmentalist (talk) 11:48, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Emmentalist, I think the section about the collision in the Petgrave article could be streamlined to avoid duplicating what is also in Adam Johnson's death. The outside opinions probably belong in the Johnson and not here as they are speculation. I think the Petgrave article should have 3-4 sentences stating he was involved in the collision, Johnson died, and it is under investigation. No reason to duplicate so much content, as we can have an indented link. It can state the impact on Petgrave, such as the standing ovation and racial attacks as those are about Petgrave. Minnemeeples (talk) 16:08, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Thanks @Minnemeeples, I agree. Emmentalist (talk) 19:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Saying Petgrave "who is black"

is ridiculously slanted wording. It infers that *only* black people can be subject to racism which is objective fiction. He is also *half black* not simply "black". His wiki page reads like he wrote it. Not encyclopedic at all. 2603:6011:5905:4B01:20BE:DF8F:5291:C43C (talk) 12:27, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it explains why he is receiving racist attacks against him. If the sources only said "attacked" or otherwise didn't indicate his race, we would not include it. Primefac (talk) 12:36, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All three sources cited refer to Petgrave as black; to change that would require multiple reliable sources referring to him as mixed-race. Frankly, even if the "who is black" construct is awkward, it works in the article, since his race is only relevant once he was being racially attacked. —C.Fred (talk) 12:37, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]