Talk:Matt Doherty (Northern Irish footballer)

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On 2 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Matt Doherty Sr. to Matt Doherty (footballer, born circa 1915). The result of the discussion was moved to Matt Doherty (Northern Irish footballer).

Requested move 2 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Matt Doherty (Northern Irish footballer). (non-admin closure) Colonestarrice (talk) 16:17, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Doherty Sr. → Matt Doherty (footballer, born circa 1915) or Matt Doherty (footballer, played circa 1935–1945). None of the sources cited in the article (such as they are) actually call him "Matt Doherty Sr." All of them call him simply "Matt Doherty". Perhaps later in his life people started to call him "Sr.", since he had a son with the same name (assuming the unsourced comment about his son is correct), but we have no evidence that it is the name he has primarily been known by. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support some sort of disambiguation, unless we can prove that he used "Sr.".--Ortizesp (talk) 05:14, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think the "born" is more of a standard disambiguation, so I'd prefer that one. But we certainly shouldn't be using an unused name as our disambiguation.--Yaksar (let's chat) 06:30, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support moving this page since "Sr." is rarely used among page names. The move to Matt Doherty (1930's footballer) may also work here due to unknown birth date. This shows that he has a son who is also Matt Doherty but not sure if en-academic.com is reliable. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 08:04, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 12:35, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to 'Matt Doherty (footballer, born circa 1915)'. Giant Snowman 12:37, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - out of interest, how do we know he was born c.1915.......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Matt Doherty (1930s footballer). I've never seen "circa" used in a disambiguator and I don't think we should start now. Added to which, as Chris says, how do we know he was born in c.1915? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:35, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude and Necrothesp: The idea that he was born around 1915 is from estimating that if he was playing in high-level competitions by 1934–35, then he was probably about 20 or so years old at that time. I was just looking for something to use. I support Matt Doherty (1930s footballer). After looking around, I didn't find any uses of "circa" used as a disambiguator like that either, although there are several similar uses of "c." – especially for rugby players, specifically, I found David Davies (rugby league, born c. 1915), Dai Rees (rugby, born c. 1885), Fred Smith (rugby league, born c. 1885), Stanley Smith (rugby league, born c. 1910), and Leslie White (rugby league, born c. 1910). (There are also some non-rugby topics, including the footballer David Wilson (footballer, born c. 1908), but it seems more common for rugby. I just opened an RM for that footballer.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 14:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support My preference would be Matt Doherty (1930s footballer), I feel that given his birth date is unknown it would be the most appropriate. I had a quick look at both WP:NCSP and WP:NCPDAB and I was a little surprised that there doesn't seem to be specific guidance on what to do in circumstances like this. NCPDAB does suggest using the date of death if appropriate but that might not work here (yet). Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:15, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support move, with a preference for Matt Doherty (footballer, born circa 1915). He's not just a 1930s footballer, as he played in the 1940s and 1950s too. And circa birth seems okay to me, as exact date of birth is unknown, and is used for other sportspeople from a similar era. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:21, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was torn on which title to select purely because he did play in more than just the 1930s but I still feel the dates he was active would be a more appropriate disambiguator. It's not outwith the realms of possibility that he could've been born before 1910 and played into his late 40s. Perhaps something like Matt Doherty (footballer, active 1935–55) would be more appropriate? Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 22:50, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He was a club manager until 1961, so if we provide an "active" range, perhaps it should span the whole range up to then. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:19, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I now prefer Matt Doherty (Northern Irish footballer), as this looks a much better disambiguator. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Change the article name to Matt Doherty (Northern Irish footballer) or don't change it at all. KingSkyLord (talk | contribs) 13:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Matt Doherty (Northern Irish footballer) per KingSkyLord. The original proposal "born circa 1915" is too vague, and seems to be basically original research based on when he played, with no other evidence so we really shouldn't be using that. "1930s footballer" is preferable, but does suffer from the issue raised by Joseph2302 that he also played in the 40s and 50s. So let's stick to his nationality, which is unambiguous and clear; it also matches the format used for Bobby Campbell (Northern Irish footballer) so it not without precedent. — Amakuru (talk) 14:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes good points.

I don't think there will ever be a "Matt Doherty Jr. page on Wikipedia due to insufficient results on Google Search so "Northern Irish footballer" is better than the unknown birth year which ChrisTheDude queried last week.

If there is another Northern Irish footballer with the same name then that idea would have to be dropped and becomes a bit messy again. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:12, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support Matt Doherty (Northern Irish footballer) as the most intuitive disambiguator. feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 14:36, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 10 April 2024

The article was titled as "Matt Doherty Sr." from 2007 until someone proposed a name change in 2022. His son Matt Doherty Jr. was also a Northern Irish footballer. New sources from Derry City F.C. and Glentoran F.C. websites clearly mentioned both players as Sr. and Jr. Hence, I propose to retrieve the old title to Sr. which was changed in 2022, as unfortunately no one could manage to discuss the presence of another player with the same title. 2A02:908:454:1660:0:0:0:D517 (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matt Jr was deleted at AfD as not being notable enough for an article, hence the retitling above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 May 2024

Matt Doherty (Northern Irish footballer) → Matt Doherty Sr. There are two Northern Irish players with the same name. The sources provided in Matt Doherty Jr. clearly differentiate the two using Sr. and Jr. Some editors even argued in the requested move in 2022 that any other player with the same title would open a new title change discussion. 2A02:908:454:1660:0:0:0:D517 (talk) 04:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]