Talk:Matrix (fictional universe)

Comments

if i understand correctly, neo is supposed to actually be a computer program.

but then why does he have a human body in the "real" world that was at first being "harvested" of energy?

maybe i don't understand correctly...

Gringo300 11:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Wouldnt' it make more sense for Seraph (an angel like being) to have been from the first version of the matrix?

Destaany 1:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

To the first question: Neo was not a literal "computer program", but his powers within the Matrix and over machines in the real world where the result of the system of control that was "The One"; a system created and sustained by the AI. While not constituting a program within a computer, his actions, and the existence of Zion, where all completely in line with the AI's goals - that The One and Zion exist as a method of control to allow "choice" and stop the degeneration of the Matrix. Therefore Neo; or more accuratly Neo in his role as "The One"; was a part of the computer's program - right up until the point he decided not to enter the source, and instead save Trinity. That is the point he left the control of the machines. --86.135.179.53 02:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

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"in the sixth version at approximately the year 2190..."

How would it be the year 2190? if it is the end of the sixth version, surely it would be around the year 2600, since each version lasts for 100 years before a new One is made to reboot the system...that's if I understand this correctly. the only dates given are those given by the people who don't know about the destruction and rebuilding of Zion, so the film does not contradict this in any way... Vimescarrot 23:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

It is at the EARLIEST 2699, around the end of the 21st century was when man invented AI, that puts and morpheus states 2199 before knowing of any version of the matrix but 3.6. it is never revealed how long the first two versions of the matrix are in effect. The first one not more than one generation i suspect, as for the second one probably a little longer.Solidusspriggan 23:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Merging articles

EDIT: This proposed merge/restructure can now be found at Matrix (fictional universe)/Proposed merge. --Nick R^Talk 21:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that the articles on The Matrix Megacity and Club Hel should be merged into this article. Proposed structure:

Section 1: History

Version one

Version two

Version three

Version four

Section 2: Locations

The City

Club Hel

Any comments?

--Nick R^Talk 13:25, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the city and club hel should remain their own articles. Because there are lots of similar locations within the matrix and we cant merge them all it will make the article messy. Merging them arbitrarily would upset the relatively good structure we have of matrix locations on the template. Solidusspriggan 20:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see your message until I'd merged the content across from those articles. But I hope you agree that it's better like this. I don't think I've made the article messy - in fact, I think it's cleaner if it's split into these two major sections than to have lots of level-two headings on each of the various versions. Here are a few other reasons:

• I think it's best if we minimise the number of Matrix series articles. Not only should the various minor characters be merged into one article (see Talk:The_Matrix#Reorganisation_of_Matrix_articles), but in general, the fewer articles there are, the easier they are to maintain. I mean, there are still certain major Matrix articles that are in dire need of cleanup; it's best if we don't have to divert our attention elsewhere!
• Club Hel didn't deserve its own article as it was, and I'm not sure that it could be expanded enough to justify a separate article. It's much better as part of a larger article. True, it could have been merged into The City (The Matrix), but I do still think it's better to place its content here...
• Having this overview article enables us to mention (however briefly) minor locations which lie outside the main city, like the mountains seen in Reloaded. And, er, that's it. :)
• The template doesn't need to be significantly changed, and anyway, affecting a template shouldn't be a major reason for not giving articles a better organisation. I'd say that anything that makes it smaller has got to be a good thing!

--Nick R^Talk 15:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Please move them back, there are multiple locations within the matrix and this will become a tangental mess eventually. Locations within the matrix such as the mountains etc can and should still be included in this article but the city and club hel really need their own articles because I have tentative article information for them that I will be adding in the near future and this is not appropriate. there was no consensus reached you just changed it. Please please change it back, I work really hard to organize and keep up some of these matrix articles and I fear this change will hinder that process as well as detract from the asthetically sound nature of the matrix template which neatly divides everything into its proper place.Solidusspriggan 20:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Please move them back, there are multiple locations within the matrix

There are indeed, but apart from a few places like the Heart O' The City Hotel, most of them aren't named, and are certainly all minor locations which wouldn't have anything more than a stub article. This is Wikipedia, not a Matrix-dedicated wiki, and we don't need an article on every single one; better to merge them all into a larger article, like this one, which can give an overview of both the history and geography of the series' setting in a single summary.

this will become a tangental mess eventually

It's possible to keep long articles well-organised.

the city and club hel really need their own articles tentative article information for them that I will be adding in the near future and this is not appropriate

I can't think of much more that could be put in The City than what's in The Matrix Online, in which case a guide to the locations featured in the game might be better off in an FAQ at Wikibooks or GameFAQs; and although Club Hel needs cleanup wherever it's placed, I don't know what could be put in there. Any reason why that information you propose to add couldn't be added within a section of this article?

there was no consensus reached you just changed it.

Sorry about that, I was being bold and I edited it before I noticed your objection.

I work really hard to organize and keep up some of these matrix articles

And I think that having fewer articles on the subject will make that job easier.

the asthetically sound nature of the matrix template which neatly divides everything into its proper place

As I said, not wanting to mess with a template (which already needs condensing) shouldn't be a criterion for improving the organisation of articles.

Incidentally, Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Minor characters makes it pretty clear that the various ships and secondary characters should be merged into single articles (List of ships in the Matrix series and List of minor Matrix characters), so that the character list in the template will go Neo |...|Oracle | More..., though perhaps some of the more important secondary characters - but not all of them - could keep their own articles and be linked to individually.

Anyway, for now, until this dispute is resolved, I'll restore the merge notices and place a copy of the content from my merged version at the subpage Matrix (fictional universe)/Proposed merge. I worked hard on that one, too! ;)

--Nick R^Talk 21:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that the locations deserve their own articles. There is much to be said about even the smallest and most insignificant locations within the matrix as well as without. I will help by restructuring and adding to these small articles, I suggest adding stub notes. GeorgeSears 21:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nick R. There are like 100 short Matrix pages right now, many of which should be merged into single articles as I did with the ships earlier today (if anyone objects I didn't wait because Nick R had posted the idea a week ago and no one objected). I can't see there being more than a paragraph of useful information on places like Club Hel, Le Vrai, the Oracle's apartment, and the hotel that Neo meets Morpheus in. Atropos 06:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the merging of the ship articles, as well as the small articles like oracle's apartment, metacortex, and le vrai. However, the Club Hel and Megacity articles should keep their own spots, they are significant enough locations to warrant their own articles. Especially the city, the city more than club hel definately warrants its own article, it could be possible to include articles such as club hel, the oracles apartment, metacortex, etc withing the megacity article, but to move them all directly under the matrix article would be hazardus. Places not in the megacity but still within the matrix should be merged into the matrix article possibly. But at the very least keep the city seperate and merge city locations within the city article.Solidusspriggan 23:05, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I can see the reasoning for having the city (and thus the locations in general) in a seperate article from the history of the Matrix..perhaps it would be better to have History of the Matrix and Matrix (fictional universe) have the locations. 04:55, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

No, I think we need as few articles on the series as possible, even if it means that some of them might be a bit too long. Too many articles will only add to Wikipedia's reputation as a place where fan-content runs rampant. The merging of the articles on the series' ships was a good start, though; the same now needs to be done for the secondary characters... --Nick R^Talk 14:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Which I am working on. I intend to merge all characters accept Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, and Smith into two pages, and that includes the Animatrix and the comic characters as well. However, two articles about the Matrix program is not unreasonable. Atropos 01:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I hope you plan to add a stub notice under each character within the superarticle because alot of the character articles are short and insufficient. For those of us that played the not so great Enter the Matrix, there is LOTS of information on Niobe and Ghost that may very well constitute a "niobe and ghost" article in addition to the 4 that are mentioned.

Matrix version error

This article is wrong in one thing: the version the Matrix is when Neo is awaken is actually the sixth one, not the third. Plus, another possible reason why the Matrix is reseted is because mankind (within the Matrix) would discover AI again, which would eventually to create a Matrix within a Matrix. Surely too much to a computer city to handle, go figure. (unless, of course, this has already happened - the 'meta-matrix' which explains the orange light seen by Neo and the seeming powers of the programs to know what's going on outside the matrix and Neo's power to control the Sentinels? Plus the fact that Neo was able to re-enter the Matrix whilst not plugged in? Who knows? Coldstream 13:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC))

Neo appears in the 6th iteration of the third design of the Matrix.

• V1 (Utopia)
• V2 (More realistic) (dystopia)Solidusspriggan
• V3.1 (One cycle implemented) (more realistic)Solidusspriggan
• V3.2
• V3.3
• V3.4
• V3.5
• V3.6 (Neo)

--Nick R^Talk 13:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with the v3.1-3.6 specification, is there any information on versions 3.2-3.5 though? I dont think so even though I have not played "path of neo" I suspect it doesnt elaborate.

I did. It doesn't. You have no proof it was me. 19:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

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To be accurate, the Neo version should be v3.4, as the Architect takes his numbering from the first version, i.e. v1 is the first, v2 the second, v3.1 the third, v3.2 the fourth, v3.3 the fifth and v3.4 the sixth version, in which the events of the films took place? --Coldstream 13:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

No, the Architect says he counts from the first emergence of an anomaly - i.e. the first "One", who appeared in version 3.1. There were 5 "Ones" before Neo. Therefore the films take place in V3.6. --Nick R^Talk 16:40, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

To Quote the Architect:

"The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version."

"The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."

Possibly v1 & v2 also had Ones? The Architect speaks of the anomaly being ineradicable despite his best efforts, in which case it would be present in the eutopia and dystopia versions too. This would explain why the Architect speaks of each version being identified by its anomaly, yet also says 'The first Matrix I designed', regarding the utopia version, i.e. v1. Coldstream 16:42, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I am very sorry but this is really Ridiculous, because you are analyizing this story, as if it's true and we are in the year 3000, anyway, we can ask the Architect? or we can ask whoever wrote his part or we can ask the director or What? it really doesn't matter whether it's 3.6 or 3.4. but you can also read my Explanation on Smith Deletion which we might analyze.

(John aTr) 1:39 pm Sunday 5/7/06 Eastern Time.

If we don't want to analyse the story, we can't say that Neo's version is v3.6 either - that's an idea which we are unable to confirm. No anlysis, no article. So, technically, unless someone related to the film tells us, the versions section must be removed entirely - which we don't want to do. So, yes, I'm analysing - but with a story such as this, what chance have we got of actually obtaining facts? Coldstream 10:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

You're all wrong, and I edited the article to show how. Neo's version of the Matrix is v3.5 Why? You all forgot to include v3.0.

v3.0 - v.3.4 is the five Ones before Neo.--Snake Liquid 03:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Super Burly Brawl

This passage troubles me

Neo battled Smith, but eventually realised that the only way to win was to allow Smith to
imprint over himself, enabling the machines to delete the rogue program. 

I think it important to mention that this is either an annihation between two opposites or a synthesis of sorts: neo being thesis (original manifestation of inbalance), smith antithesis, and smith's overwriting of neo more of a synthesis of stability within the matrix and machine codespace alike. If the machines could that just be "enabled to delete" smith through a hardwired human then they could have taken any podborn and fixed the problem. The information (code) that neo carries is crucial to the solution to the problem. I don't want to go off on a philosophical tangent but it is at the very least dialectical and more complicated than a simple deletion.Solidusspriggan 23:21, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do would be to simply describe what happens on screen. I doubt that sources can be found for the two main fan interpretations (either that Neo's direct connection to Deus Ex Machina allowed Smith to be deleted; or that the two cancel each other out, due to a literal interpretation of the Oracle's suggestion that they're opposites). So I think it's best not to include any of these interpretations, because you can't really give a source from anything except a fan website, which would not be a reliable source. --Nick R^Talk 11:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

at the same time, smith was not simply deleted, there are no sources for that either. maybe just a redirect to the "interpretations" section of the revolutions or Neo article.Solidusspriggan 16:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the explanations in both the Neo and Smith articles should be transferred to The Matrix Revolutions article. I reckon the Smith one summarises them best at the moment, though they'd all need to be combined and cleaned up.--Nick R^Talk 18:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

How about you might want to think about, that a milli second before the copying process to Neo is completed Neo deleted himself, thus deleting Only one of the Smiths (THE New and the Most Powerfull Smith), thus not transferring Neo's Power to Smith. The Machine Main Frame took into account Neo's Power outside the Matrix and "How he got there?" so for a minimum Loss, The Machines Let Smith Force Neo to Sacrifice himself, in turn The MAchine main Frame Deleted Smith or Rebooted the System, to it's Normal Position (the seventh Version, whether, it's 3.5 or 3.7). Because the Machines could delete Smith anyway as he is (still connected to) anyone plugged in to the Matrix in the fields whom are connected to the machines, thus i don't see still why Neo was need to delete Smith. With the same talking, No one could Kill Neo, but on the other hand Smith is unphysical program that is bounded by the matrix (Exception, his only escape incidence to the Real world, which is limited). Rebooting the Matrix will result in "the extention of Smith", Thus Neo Mistankely thought that Smith Grew beyond the Machines power (or why they not deleting him, because he isnot like an Exile that hide and escape from agents) it's Beleived that Agents Job is to Delete these kind of Abnormalities, to Fix the Matrix, put there's no point for fixing just "RESTART OR REBOOT", but the Machines Let Smith to Do his Work, Finnaly to attract Neo, The MAchines big Threat, and thus killing (deleting) him, but the Machines were not expecting that "Peace Deal" Because They realized that No one Can kill Neo."I think this might be a part of the Theory". (John aTr) 1:44 pm Sunday 5/7/06 Eastern Time.

In all reality, the theory including the Deus EX Machina is the perfect and most-likely the true one. Seeing as the Matrix was/is a technic-organic place (since active human minds as well as computer programs co-existed together), it has to be treated as such. Dealing with computers, most viruses can be isolated and destroyed when they infect a system as bad as Agent Smith did. But in a human body, a virus must be gathered and sampled in order to find a cure. During the entire movie the Wach..."the two brothers" kept people thinking about it not a imply one system but as a mix of both. Neo could've tried to defeat Smith in Zion. But is also implied, as previously stated, that Neo and Smith's life lines were entwined. Neo went to Zero One initially hoping to just beat Smith to a pulp but then realized the truth: Either both lives, or both dies. Once the code was imprinted over Neo, that allowed for the Deus EX Machina to generate a "vaccine". Keep in mind that once he assimiliated Neo, he asked was it over assuming and hoping that he stood alone to conquer everything and knowing that his code couldn't be stopped by Neo...not alone at least.(Machpovii3...Holla Atcha Bezzle, Kid! 02:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC))

Removed "Supposed history of the Matrix" section

There was previously a page entitled "Supposed History of The Matrix Series". Last January, I edited that page to improve the tone and remove all of its fan-fiction/speculation, to see what could be salvaged and merged into this article. There wasn't anything left that wasn't already explained adequately here, so the article was deleted.

However, today I visited this page again, only to find that the same text had been added into an entirely unnecessary section of its own. Again, it only repeated information that was explained elsewhere, and in an unencyclopaedic tone. So I've removed the text for the same reason as before. (This is the relevant edit.) --Nick R^Talk 18:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Math of "The Matrix"

Paladin Anderson 07:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)I came up with this stuff on my own the first time I sat down to watch the movie. Think it could belong here or do I need to shaddup? (original article available @ [1]. The entry is "Lost in a Hollywood World."

The Math of the Matrix (NOTE: All numbers not actually related in the films are conservative estimates and are in fact reduced from the original estimates I made while watching the films.)

--Assume 7 versions of the one, including Neo, as per the history of the Matrix as related by the Architect . --Assume 100 years for each version to finish, as per the history of Zion as related by Morpheus. --Assume 50 years for the early failures mentioned by Smith during his interrogation of Morpheus. --Assume 10 years of war after the beginning of the machine rebellion. --Assume 40 years of lead up to war after the creation of AI.

(100*7)+50+10+40=800 years

Morpheus says that while Neo believes it to be the year 1999, it is closer to 2199. So,

2199-800=1399

So, either we have been living in the Matrix since the Dark ages (unlikely), or the Wachowski brothers didn't check their math. Or perhaps I'm thinking too hard.

The Architect said it best, "The Matrix is older than you know..." So it really doesn't amount to anything other than Morpheus being wrong about the year being 2199. It is actually closer to 2799 (since Zion is aware of 2 out of those 8 centuries).

Well you read anything, just read. we already talked about that already, no really. Anyway when Moroheus Said 2199, because he didn't know anything about the "Anomlies" or the verisions of matrix. Just as Simple as that! (John aTr)

What version are Angels from?

In the Versions section it states that Angel Agents are from Version 1, but then the description of Version 2 says Seraph (angels) come from that version. (Slick023 19:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC))

Good point. I fixed the section on Version 2 and deleted references to the Angels. VolatileChemical 23:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Matrix-humans' knowledge of the Matrix

Can we get a section in here about how much the humans in the Matrix know about the Matrix? I mean, Neo has at least heard of it at the beginning of the first movie, even though he doesn't really know what it is. Maybe it's like some kind of mysterious computing entity whispered amongst the hacker community? I don't know, that's just the impression I got. Maybe someone who knows more about the series could help. VolatileChemical 23:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Scope of article

This article is not as general as the name, Matrix (fictional universe), suggests since it does not mention any uses of Matrix outside The Matrix (series). I believe it should at least mention Neuromancer (1984 novel by William Gibson), and maybe other uses as well? Or maybe rename it to reflect the current scope. Larspedia (talk) 21:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking that, too. And also the matrix from Doctor Who, which is another vision of a virtual reality system. It seems odd that this page is so strictly Matrix-movie-franchise-only. -- abfackeln (talk) 08:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I suppose there are two alternatives:

1. Keep the page strictly dedicated to the Wachowskis' Matrix. In which case a title of Matrix (The Matrix) might be more appropriate - clunky, but it matches the format of the title of the Doctor Who Matrix page.
2. Keep the article titled Matrix (fictional universe), but use it to discuss (in separate level 2 sections), all three Matrices; Gibsonian, Whovian and Wachowskian. :) However, the page Simulated reality#Simulated reality in fiction already does that, with the advantage of also covering virtual reality worlds that happen to have different names.

I favour the first option.--Nick R^Talk 21:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Creator/Exectuive conflict!

I just found this bit that said that the Wachowskis originally intended The Matrix to be a giant computer network made of human brains. It was the executives that demanded it be a power plant! I'm starting looking for actual proof right now, but could everyone keep an eye out? Kalaong 13:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)