Talk:Massacre of Running Waters

Expressions of doubt are not "neutral language"

These edits by Bacondrum are a mess of weasel words and expressions of doubt, contrary to MOS:WTW, so I have reverted them.

It may be that the article needs some work, but filling the article with "apparent", "may" and "are claimed" is not the solution. Either we believe the sources or we don't. If they sources say "may" etc, then quote the source saying that, so it's clear that it is the reference's not Wikipedia's voice. If the sources disagree then say so explicitly, including which sources and how they disagree. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Mitch Ames Fair enough, and thanks for explaining. I don't trust colonial era accounts of Aboriginal history, especially when no Aboriginal account corresponds with or confirms claims made by white settlers. So, how do we deal with these kinds of unsubstantiated colonial era claims? There's a massive issue of racism when dealing with non-Aboriginal accounts from this era. I've been unable to find any Aboriginal accounts of this massacre, which is telling...actual events like this that truly occurred are usually very well known and documented in Aboriginal oral tradition, and white colonial accounts are often inaccurate and littered with overt expressions of racism. All sources used are relaying second hand colonial accounts by missionaries, which are problematic for a number of reasons, not least of all the racism expressed in many of these accounts, the fact that the colonialists often framed Aboriginal people and events surrounding them in terms of "savages" and a "dying race" to justify the theft of land, the massacres etc. These are unsubstantiated secondhand colonial accounts quoted in contemporary history books. Taking that into account I don't think that these events should be stated as fact in Wikivoice, they are unsubstantiated. This page gives an overview of issues I'm concerned about surrounding white colonialist accounts: https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/early-settlers/ It was to the great benefit of colonisers to exaggerate and make up stories of Aboriginal savagery, by and large white colonial settler accounts are unreliable sources for Aboriginal history. Bacondrum 01:34, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

how do we deal with these kinds of unsubstantiated colonial era claims? As we do with everything else at Wikipedia: by providing reputable sources that specifically describe the sources mentioned overleaf as such. As you know, I don't trust… doesn't qualify. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:10, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think questions about the reliability of settler accounts can or should be brushed off that easily.

• The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/the-killing-times-the-massacres-of-aboriginal-people-australia-must-confront "...a settler’s journal is not necessarily a reliable or definitive account of what took place.'
• Queensland Archaeological Research journal: https://journals.jcu.edu.au/qar/article/download/3720/3615/7347"Reliable accounts of how massacres were carried out are understandably scarce and mostly come from oral accounts from Traditional Owners, although some detailed records do exist in the context of official enquiries into specific massacre events. One of these was the Coniston Massacre in 1928 near Alice Springs, in which it was officially admitted that at least 31 Walpiri people of all ages and sexes were shot, but with independent missionary estimates of 70 and the Walpiri themselves claiming that at least 170 were killed"
• University of Newcastle: https://c21ch.newcastle.edu.au/colonialmassacres/introduction.php "The most reliable evidence of frontier massacre is often provided by the witnesses, perpetrators and survivors long after the event." and "Police reports of massacres from the Kimberley are notoriously unreliable because they are often prepared by the perpetrators with the purpose of covering them up. Aboriginal survivors have responded by constructing visual stories of the event in paintings and films." In this case we have no eyewitness testimony, only second hand accounts by settlers. Where is the Aboriginal evidence, one man recalling events that happened when he was a small child, most likely under duress and whose story differs from the colonial account.

And that's just the first few entries from a google search. I would argue that settler accounts are unreliable sources in the absence of other corroborating evidence. Bacondrum 20:48, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

It's just as well that we have the reliable secondary sources Blainey and Ted Strehlow to support them.

Do you have a source that asserts that Blainey and Strehlow are wrong abou this particular event? Mitch Ames (talk) 23:46, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to see the specific text being cited, if anyone has access to the texts? Otherwise I'm going to go to the library and check the sources when I have some spare time. I'd be surprised to see such unproven, uncorroborated...and obscure, secondhand colonial era claims like this stated as though they are verified facts. Bacondrum 05:31, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I've just borrowed Journey to Horseshoe Bend from the local library, but not had a chance to check the citations yet, and I have a request pending for The story of Australia's people. The rise and fall of ancient Australia (could take up to 3 weeks). Mitch Ames (talk) 13:05, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Nice one, I'm heading to the library today, see if I can get some of the texts. Bacondrum 20:45, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, the style of attack seems consistent with other events. William Buckley writes of several, and he lived with Victorian Aboriginies for 30 years.

[1] Tuntable (talk) 02:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Inaccurate section on Michael Kirby

The source given for Michael Kirby saying that Aboriginal law is completely incompatible with Aboriginal law does not say that at all, and is written so falsely I assume it's a falsehood by this article's now blocked author.

In fact Kirby writes in that article "In collecting some of the reasons he advanced for this view, no inference should be drawn concerning any conclusion which the Law. Reform Commission or I have reached on the subject. No conclusion has been reached."

So in fact it is Strehlow commenting on this issue and not Kirby. I'll edit to reflect that. Poketama (talk) 15:17, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok yeah I looked over the history and that section was written entirely by the blocked user Austhistory99. Given that this section was false in many important ways, I'm dubious of if this article has any merit despite your work to recover it @Bacondrum @Mitch Ames

I don't have time to read heavily over these sources at the moment and come to an opinion of if this article is factual. Have you two done this yourselves? In the last discussion above @Bacondrum you said you were going to gather some texts but then didn't edit any further? Poketama (talk) 15:50, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Looking at Blainey's book, he only makes a very short mention of this incident to make the same point that the original author of this article was making - that in Aboriginal life warfare was a large cause of death. However, he doesn't give any analysis of the incident or any further details and it seems to all be pulled from Strehlow, who worked from Tjalkabota's secondary recounting of the incident from his childhood friends. Blainey references another account of the massacre but its' unclear what this account is.

Anyone familiar with Blainey's work would recognise that he's biased on these issues. I'm being careful not to deny a massacre that if verifiable is definitely horrible, but I would like to see more sources that analyse it. At present I don't think the article is appropriate, as it entirely relies on Strehlow. Poketama (talk) 13:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Multiple issues tag explanation

The topic of this article may not meet Wikipedia's general notability guideline.

I am unsure if this event can be reliably sourced enough to meet Wikipedia:Notability. The current sources appear to only summarise Strehlow's work; of which 'Journey to Horseshoe Bend' is the usual cited source. I would like feedback if Journey to Horseshoe Bend is usually understood to be a solid source, as after I have read a bit of it, it appears to be a novel. Additionally, all accounting of the event appears to come from one primary source: Tjalkabota's discussions with Strehlow and Strehlow's recounting of them. I'm unsure if this one primary source is enough. A simple Google search also turns up very little on this topic.

To me, the reading of this article looks fine and notable. It is mentioned in the Australian Dictionary of Biography in Paul Abrech (ref #7 Albrecht 2005). For an item to be accepted in the ADB it must pass a very high bar of peer-review. A primary source for the massacre is from Aboriginal oral testimony by Moses Tjalkabota. He was a Christian pastor - are we to suggest that he lied? Are we to discount Aboriginal oral history as invalid? DLogothetis (talk) 02:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I am genuinely asking if the use of only one primary source is suitable for Wikipedia:Notability. I don't think them being a Christian pastor is relevant. Are you referring to this page? https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/tjalkabota-moses-13219 Because it's barely a mention of the event with no detail at all. Poketama (talk) 13:31, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article is disputed.

This article was written entirely by one user, with minor touch ups after that user was banned. The user was banned for, among other things, posting on a biased webpage devoted to this topic that they were intentionally bringing the History Wars to Wikipedia and wrote this article to highlight the viewpoint that Indigenous life was brutal. Additionally, as mentioned above, I edited an entire section that was false according to the source. Also, Blainey is the major secondary source used in this article and is a frequent participant on one side of the History Wars.

This article possibly contains inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text.

As noted above, I have not been able to source and read through all of the citations. However, there is reasonable doubt that there may be further false citations.

With all due respect, your not reading the citations doesn't sound like a valid reason to reject the massacre as having happened - where is the evidence that supports your assertion that the citations are false?DLogothetis (talk) 02:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Please see above where I worked extensively to rewrite a section after reading through the given source and finding it to be entirely false. Poketama (talk) 13:33, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

This article needs additional citations for verification.

As noted above, the article relies on one primary source and secondary sources that appear to refer only briefly and in passing to the one primary source. The neutrality of the selection of those citations is also disputed. I suggest doing a literature search for "Irbmangkara" or "Running Waters", and if possible including authors on both sides or outside of typical History Wars authors.

This article's factual accuracy is disputed.

For the reasons stated above the content of the article is dubious and there are not enough sources to verify the factuality of the event. Poketama (talk) 15:54, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

To me, it appears that for a small article about a single event there are plenty of primary and secondary references from 5 very different sources including a HC judge (Kirby), one of Australia's most respected Anthropologists (Strehlow), religious and fluent Arrente speakers (Albrecht, Tjalkabota), amongst others. It is not up to us editors to decide the facts but rather post the knowledge of the event as published by the sources.DLogothetis (talk) 02:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I respect your reasoning and am happy to accept the article if its' suitable. What I'm asking is, is it acceptable if the only source is Strehlow analysing Tjalkabota's oral testimony? If you can, add more sources please, I would be happy to see them. The Kirby source just quotes a letter from Strehlow and is more of a eulogy for Strehlow than a historical analysis. Poketama (talk) 13:40, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Side note: User:Austhistory99 is the banned user. A major contributor User_talk:M2sh22pp1l (Bacondrum above) has retired from Wikipedia and is unlikely to help fix this article. Poketama (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia publishes uncomfortable facts

Many editors seem concerned that events like this conflict with our modern view of how pre-European life was led by aboriginals. But there are multiple accounts of war etc. as one would expect. I would refer people to [2] for some first hand accounts in Victoria.

According to Buckely though, murders in his area were not over territory (like in the west) nor about sacred rituals, but rather about ownership of women. There were quite a lot, which is how they managed to escape the Malthusian Trap and then live well.

Different times, different circumstances, Wikipedia reports facts without judgement. Tuntable (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2023 (UTC)