Talk:Mass suicide in Demmin/Archive 1

Archive 1

RfC

{{rfctag|hist|pol}} The article has been rated C class by two Wikiprojects but a particular user insists that there is a NPOV problem, to the extent of discussing it at WP:TDYK. So the neutrality and factual accuracy of the article should be checked by a number of uninvolved editors. De728631 (talk) 16:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

NPOV issues

The sources are of very dubious quality(pastor and politician) also the numbers confirmed by English sources seem to indicate much lower number-this page seems to be an essay and synthesis and thus we should nominate it for deletation probably.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Could you either point out what POV exactly is given undue weight or take it to AfD right away so issues may be sorted there. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I think I can rewrite the article so that it can be neutral. Giving information on Nazi encouragment for suicide and racist hysteria about "animals from the East" will be a good start.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The discussion about that is two sections below. Here, please point out what POV is given undue weight, since you tagged the article with the POV template. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:57, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

@Molobo: As you reinstated the POV tag, could you please outline any neutrality issues with the sources presented? Skäpperöd (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

What's the connection between looting of cereal distilleries and suicide?

Already on 30 April, when the atrocities started in the evening, Soviet soldiers had looted both Demmin's cereal distilleries and several alcohol stores.[4] How is this passage relevant to suicide?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

It is relevant for where the Soviet soldiers had part of their alcohol from, since a lot of them reportedly committed the atrocities leading to the mass panic/mass suicide while drunk. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Didn't the deaths happen already before arrival of Red Army soldiers-with Nazi killings of family members? At least I recall one such article noting that.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Please cite it. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:57, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Already proved that indeed the Nazi inflicted deaths were first. Hence see no reason for continued existance of this sentence.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:13, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No you haven't, one person ran amok, the discussion (including the source) is below [1]. And since sources mention the drunk Soviet soldiers committing atrocities, and also mention where they got the alcohol, and connect this to the suicides, it is in the article. From the Focus source: "Die Exzesse beginnen noch am Abend. Während sich unendliche Militärkolonnen vor den zerstörten Brücken stauen, plündern Rotarmisten die beiden Getreidebrennereien und diverse Spirituosenhandlungen. „Krakelende und plündernde Rotarmisten“ zogen von Haus zu Haus. „Unentwegt Uri, Uri . . . Frau, komm!-Rufe. Nebenan jammerten und schrien Frauen“, erinnert sich die Demminerin Ursula Strohschein. (...) „Volltrunkene Sieger nahmen sich alle nur erreichbaren Frauen vor, demütigten sie auf das gräßlichste“, erinnert sich die Demminer Ärztin Lotte-Lore Martens. Später kam „eine Unzahl vergewaltigter Frauen, teilweise noch stark blutend, mit ein, zwei, drei, ja manchmal vier Kindern an der Hand in Trance die Jarmener Chaussee heraufgewankt. Wir sahen sie früher oder später nach rechts den Weg Richtung Tollense nehmen. Sie suchten also den Tod in den Fluten.“" Skäpperöd (talk) 20:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry this is English wikipedia. Please write in English. Also its now obvious that the first deaths were not result of "Drunk Soviet soldiers committing atrocities" but caused by a Nazi, even if it is one person that is enough-the sources mention this and so should we. Of course sources mention also that the wave of suicides in 1945 Germany were the result of Nazi indoctrination and unwillingness to surrender, as well as as racist fear of "animals from the East", which of course is mentioned directly in chapter where Demmin is described.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:27, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

There is one passage with "animals from the east" in the chapter, it is the translation of an eyewitness report from Schönlanke. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Notable lack of information regarding Nazi propaganda encouraging suicide

Suicide in Nazi Germany by Christian Goeschel notes this event and others in chapter devoted to the issue, it explains right at the beginning the role Nazi propagand had in encouraging suicide among population, as well as racist fear of "animals from the East". Currently the article lacks this information.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Please cite the relevant passage and point out how it relates to the events in Demmin. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I won't copy the whole chapter here. However the author explains the suicides(including the one in Demmin) in several aspects and Nazi indoctrination is one of them.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Please point out where the author does so, you need not "copy the whole chapter here". Ihave skimmed through the chapter and so far found nothing relating a Nazi indoctrination to the events in Demmin. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Well I read the chapter and found a lot of information regarding the reason for suicides in Germany of that time to be Nazi indoctrination.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:55, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Please name/quote the parts that relate to Demmin. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:58, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Pages 149-167. Cheers.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I know where the chapter is, I quoted it in the article. I want you to tell me where the sentences are that you think relate to Demmin and are not yet in the article. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:26, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Deaths happened before any alledged Red Army atrocities and were made by Nazis-not mentioned by the article now

Um elf Uhr dringen Truppen des 1. Don-Gardepanzerkorps und der 65. Armee in die Stadt ein. Am Turm der St. Bartholomaei-Kirche und an vielen Häusern wehen weiße Fahnen und Laken. „Der erste Russe wurde um fünf nach elf vor dem roten Krankenhaus erschossen“, erzählt der Demminer Uhrmacher Rolf-Dietrich Schultz. Damals, mit neun Jahren, ist er von einem Keller in der Treptower Straße aus Augenzeuge.

Der Amokschütze ist offenbar Studienrat Gerhard Moldenhauer. Der NSDAP-Mitläufer hatte einer Nachbarin erklärt: „Ich habe eben meine Frau und meine Kinder erschossen, nun will ich noch ein paar Russen umlegen.“[2]

The above quote confirms that the Nazis started killing population well before any alledged Red Army atrocities happened.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Not at all. First of all, it is not certain whether Moldenhauer actually was the one who fired the shot, the source says "offenbar". Second, one "NSDAP_Mitläufer" is not "the Nazis", and if he actually was a Nazi, which is uncertain, he did not "started killing population", but his wife and his kids, according to an eyewitness whom he had told so. Skäpperöd (talk) 18:27, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Please translate "offenbar". Btw I don't undersatand how his wife and kids are not part of the population.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:29, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

offenbar - looks like. If he really killed his wife and his children we don't know, that's what a neighbor said he told her. If he was really a Nazi, we don't know, as the source says "Mitläufer". Certainly he did not hold any authority, and he was not up to "started killing population", since the source unambiguously says that the gunman, who might or might not have been Moldenhauer, ran "amok". Skäpperöd (talk) 18:39, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If he really killed his wife and his children we don't know That's your POV-the source makes it rather clear that he did so.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

No, the source states that he told a neighbor that he did so. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If he was really a Nazi, we don't know Please point any reason to doubt he was a Nazi as it is written in the text.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Because it says "NSDAP-Mitläufer". Skäpperöd (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

So a Nazi follower. Why is that supposed to claim that he wasn't a Nazi?

Certainly he did not hold any authority Source please. Plus-how is it relevant?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Because the source says Mitläufer, and the Nazi officials had left the town already (which is sourced in the article. Relevance: You claimed that the "above quote confirms that the Nazis started killing population", and it doesn't at all. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Nazi follower does not contradict being Nazi or of any authoritiy. Nazi follower is an obvious Nazi, I fail to see your point. Was he not a Nazi and was he not responsible for deaths? Source please.

since the source unambiguouslyI see nothing unambiguous here.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The source says "Amokschütze", verbatim. It's not possible for a source to say that someone ran amok in a more unambiguous way. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The source clearly names him as Nazi and claims he was responsible for deaths well before any Red Army atrocities. This needs to be mentioned.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

In any case we can state word for word what is written. Definetely the reasons for deaths are not as clear as you try to present them in the article. All sources need to be reviewed to see if there is even further information that will present this article in neutral way. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I have added the details of the incident, with quotes and links. One person had run amok and most probably killed his family and himself before the atrocities and the mass suicide started, but this is not the "Nazis started killing population" you suggested. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Source please that he was not a Nazi.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I did not exclude the chance of him being a Nazi, I said verbatim "If he was really a Nazi, we don't know, as the source says 'Mitläufer'". You quoted the source above yourself. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

And how does this sentence mean he isn't a Nazi? Anyway, besides this, it is now obvious that the deaths had a far more complicated reason than "Red Army atrocities" and happened before any Red Army presence was even felt. The lead needs to be changed as well I am afraid as it misses the Nazi inflicted deaths, and issues like demonstrating white flags to Soviet troops that sent negotatiors only to have them shot.And of course we need a section on Nazi propaganda encouraging sucide rather than surrender.-MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Mitläufer is literally "the one who walks along", and that's exactly what it means - someone hanging out with the Nazis for whatever reasons without being really part of it. He could have been a member, but that is uncertain from the source.

Neither do I understand that, as the source you quoted stated (quote above) that one person was running amok, who was described as "NSDAP-Mitläufer", how that is "Nazi-inflicted deaths" and "Nazis started killing population" (your quotes). And please provide your source that "Nazi propaganda encouraging sucide rather than surrender" (your quote) is relevant to the events in Demmin. Skäpperöd (talk) 20:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Mitlaufer is stated as "follower"-thus nothing in the description "Nazi follower" says that he wasn't a Nazi member. In fact it rather is a statement that he was. It is obvious now that first deaths were caused by Nazi hand not result of alledged "Soviet atrocities". Nazi propaganda encouring sucide rather than surrender in Nazi Germany in a book about titled "Suicide in Nazi Germany" is of course relevant to suicide in Nazi Germany.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:21, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

"Mitläufer", as in follower, does explicitely exclude party membership, otherwise the sources would have called him an "NSDAP-Mitglied" or similar. Comparing the rest of the sources given, this one man going amok is however clearly not the one who directly started "mass" suicides of the general population. If indoctrination had played a great role in this case, considerable numbers of suicides would have been reported prior to the invasion of the Soviets but that seems not to be the case (Andrea Bscheid's phrase, although speaking of "before and after" is ambiguous in this matter as she doesn't mention any discrete numbers of pre- and post-invasion suicides, only a total account). Moldenhauers role is moreover explained in the NDR report by another witness named Quandt. By shooting at the Russians after the formal surrender of the town (white flag) he and the likes of him triggered retaliation in line with Soviet martial law. So one could argue that fanatic Nazi followers were in fact responsible for the mass suicides yet not by indoctrinating a whole town but by sparking excessive revenge and retaliation from the Soviet side. Ergo what led to the suicides was the behaviour of Soviet troops, caused by a handful of Nazi partisans. De728631 (talk) 23:59, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

If indoctrination had played a great role in this case, considerable numbers of suicides would have been reported prior to the invasion of the Soviets but that seems not to be the case A notable event changed that-the suicidal death of Adolf Hitler which in turn sparked numerous suicides in Nazi Germany(mentioned by Christian Goeschel in Suicide in Nazi Germany)--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Where does Goeschel connect Hitler's suicide to the suicides in Demmin? Skäpperöd (talk) 12:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

In a chapter that describes those suicides.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Please quote. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, please quote a sentence from your source that connects Nazi propaganda and mass suicides (not occasional ones!) in Demmin. De728631 (talk) 16:37, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Modern use by Neonazi and far-right propaganda

I found some sources indicating that modern Neonazis and far right in Germany use those events to spread their propaganda[3][4], and some association «Vereinigung Freies Pommern» is mentioned as well. I believe this needs to be adressed--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 08:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Ostseewelle qualifies as a RS, indymedia not. As for the abovementioned association, that seems to be a non-notable clique that planned a non-notable event (3 google hits, including the Ostseewelle note and a mirror of that note). I oppose giving them a platform here. The interest generated by a mention here would most certainly outweigh the interest they got so far. Skäpperöd (talk) 10:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed I oppose giving them a platform here as well Skapperod-that is why I believe the article needs to be reviewed so that any purely coincidental similiarity between their claims and the article will be avoided. Of course the fact that German far right in Pommerania tries to exploit mass suicides caused by panic due to fall of Nazi Germany and death of Hitler deserves to be mentioned in the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

And that way give them a platform? Views held by a fraction of a promille or so of the population and opposed by the rest should definetely not be in the article. By now, this "organization" appears 3 times in google as linked above, two of the hits are mirrors. I advise against boosting theses hits by mentioning them here. Skäpperöd (talk) 12:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I am also against boosting NPD,far right or neonazi claims from Pomerania-that's why it would be great to warn potential readers that such propaganda exist-to let them know if they stumble on such thing in internet what are its sources. Also it would be great to compare the article to NPD and Freies Pommerania claims so that any coincidental support for that propaganda will be avoided.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That would be fact-finding and original research, which we don't do at Wikipedia. If there was any significant coverage of NPD and consorts jumping on the topic then we might include it, but so far that has been all but a non-issue. Trivial. De728631 (talk) 16:07, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Notable event that explains the suicides(according to sources)-not mentioned in the article

The article fails to mention that the suicides happened within hours of Adolf Hitler's suicidal death. Sources on mass sucicides by citizens of Nazi Germany in 1945 mention quite strongly that this was one of the main triggers for the suicides.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Could you please point out what source says where that the mass suicide in Demmin was a consequence of Hitler's suicide? Skäpperöd (talk) 12:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Mentioned directly in at least two sources which mention Demmin as well. Of course those sucides didn't happen in vacuum of the situation, just like any murder of Jews by Nazi Germany can't be portayed as seperate in-itself event that had no connection to overall situation in Germany.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

You really cannot be in earnest, to declare the mass suicide in any way as a consequence of Hitler's suicide!!! Why in Demmin and not also, for instance, in Hannover? (Apart from the fact, that nobody knew, that Hitler committed suicide. The radio announced, that he was killed in action. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.43.103.97 (talk) 07:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Please name/quote the sources you are referring to. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Problems with claim that among 32.000 citizens were no NSDAP members?

The Nazis, police, Wehrmacht and several citizens had left the town before we can read in the lead. That seems dubious. They were no NSDAP members among the population at all? Perhaps higher Nazi officials? Did all NSDAP members in the town left? --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I have changed Nazis to Nazi officials, as explained and sourced in detail in the article. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

May 2010-Demmin

Why is there no mention of the May 2010 Neo-Nazi rally in Demmin?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg7xoZ-cmLs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-Cr23lUknU&feature=related

What's Up Doc?--Woogie10w (talk) 16:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Because it was a trivial event that was only briefly covered by the local press. See the talk above for that. De728631 (talk) 17:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

You may consider it a trivial event but other editors may want to make mention in this article of the fact that that the radical right has made an issue of the 1945 events in Demmin.

Also please consider this point:

This is the citation re 1945 events from Gernan Wikipedia [5]

Während des Zweiten Weltkrieges mussten zahlreiche Frauen und Männer aus der Sowjetunion und Polen in der Zuckerfabrik und auf dem Gut der Familie Rohr Zwangsarbeit verrichten. An den katastrophalen Lebensbedingungen starben mindestens 100 von ihnen.

Here is my translation

During the 2nd WW many women and men from the Soviet Union and Poland were forced to work in the sugar factory and on the estate of the family Rohr. Due to the terrible living conditions at least 100 died.

The issue of Demmin was in the German national news recently, the cops just stopped a neo-Nazi march.

From Google News

[6]

[7]

The German police recently broke up an extreme right rally of 70 persons in Straslund and in Demmin the rightists attempted to block the memorials to the victims of the Nazis

The local government in Demmin has decided today to restore the local Jewish cemetery which was vandalized in the Hitler era. This is a slap in the face of the local neo-Nazis. [8]

Lets celebrate[9]

Whats up Doc?--Woogie10w (talk) 19:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Woogie10w-this information is very interesting.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

We need to research the issue of the forced laborers in Demmin, I wonder what Polish sources report. I need to check out the German sources. Bugs Bunny had the right words for this stitution-Whats up Doc?--Woogie10w (talk) 02:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

All this has nothing to do with mass suicides in Demmin on 1 May 1945 on onwards. The two news links Woogie provided are about a Nazi rally to commemorate the death of Rudolf Hess and the forced labour in Demmin, although it did happen, is also not connected to this article's topic. For those who might have missed it: this article is not about Demmin's WW2 past in general but about an event that involved the suicides of several 100 Germans in Demmin starting on 1 May 1945. De728631 (talk) 16:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Neither do I see a connection between the links and the Demmin mass suicide. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it is worthy to mention that appereantly Russian slaves were being used in Demmin, and they were numerous deaths it seems among those slave labourers before they were liberated by Soviet forces? Life Magazine btw reports that many former slaves tried to avenge their mistreatment on their former masters.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

The Neo-Nazi rally in Demmin this May had nothing to do about the death of Rudolf Hess, it was an attempt to exploit the tragic events of May 1945 for propaganda purposes. The radical right in Germany has chosen this issue to influance German public opinion. --Woogie10w (talk) 17:43, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes but the Google News links you posted above were about an event in Stralsund in August 2010. And "Anlass der Aktion soll der Todestag von Hitler-Stellvertreter Rudolf Heß gewesen sein. Dieses Datum ist in der Szene alljährlich Anlass für Aufmärsche (The reason of the event was said to have been the anniversary of Rudolf Hess's death. This date is an annual occasion for the scene to organise marches)." (your link to NDR where the word "Demmin" does not even appear). De728631 (talk) 15:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

You are quite correct the August demo was about Hess not Demmin, Lets drop the issue. However the May 2010 demo re 1945 tradgey was supported by the NPD [10] --Woogie10w (talk) 16:24, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources

I just saw the RfC and had a look at the article. Apart from some trivial errors (What's the 1st Don Panzer Corps?) I noticed that almost all the notes referred to reports in the media. The only scholarly source I found is dissertation in clinical psychology, the only serious study on the topic is listed as "Further reading". While it is totally appropriate to use media reports as sources in current events, it is a bit odd to do so more than 65 years later. Admittedly, the whole thing was hushed up during socialist times, but still, quoting eyewitnesses who were children then, looks a bit odd.

--红卫兵 (talk) 20:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

As to the age of the sources (some of which quote historians) let me cite Nyttend who has already replied to this concern at WP:TDYK: "...the occupations and ages of the sources are not themselves reasons to say that they're unreliable: this man's published writings were reliable sources on the American Civil War, and any current Egyptologists write about events that happened long before they were 9 years old."

It is in fact quite hard to find material online and what is left of other sources and accounts is apparently still waiting to be evaluated, sitting somewhere in the cellars of the Federal Commissioner for the Stasi Archives. There are references to the event though in books like "In einem Anfall von Depression". Selbsttötungen in der DDR (lit.: Suicides in the GDR) by Udo Grashoff (lit. quote: "In Mecklenburgian Demmin for example ca. 700 out of the 15,000 citizens took their lives within one week"; in a footnote Grashof gives estimated numbers of 700 to 1200 deaths, citing Buske); and apparently also in Joachim Schultz-Naumann, Mecklenburg 1945 (cf. the footnote in this scholarly report on inmates interned in Soviet Special Camps in occupied Germany, lit.: "The most prominent example for such fears [of punishment] are the numerous mass suicides before the invasion of Soviet troops. This is not only accounted by NKVD reporst that are archived by the Institute of History and Biography of Fernuniversität Hagen, but also by later analyses. There are no exact numbers but... others speak of 900 to 1,000 in Demmin etc."). So while there are secondary contemporary reports and analyses, they are apparently not yet publicly available, not to mention them being online.

Notably though, there's even a novel by a Swiss author from 2008 about the event: Canitz' Verlangen, amazon page with German description: "Der größte Massensuizid in der europäischen Geschichte blieb ein Tabu. Erst jetzt macht ein Roman die Tragödie von Demmin zum Ausgangspunkt eines Familiendramas... (the greatest mass suicide in European history remained a taboo. Only now a novel makes the tragedy of Demmin the origin of a family's drama...).

So the topic has not received much attention yet, but has nevertheless been covered by reliable sources and even found its way into fiction.

But as to my request for review, I was not so much concerned about sources but about the alleged non-neutrality of this article. MyMoloboaccount repeatedly complained about that because he seems to be eager to attest how Nazi demagogists were directly involved in the mass suicides of Demmin by indoctrinating their subjects. But so far he has not brought any quotes for his claim nor could I find anything related. Please see the various threads above for that. De728631 (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I am familiar with oral history - its merits and limitations. I am merely pointing out, that an encyclopedic article should be based on proper secondary sources rather than fleeting news coverage. In the absence of facts and academic research, we are prone to create Pseudohistory here, or simply put: myth. The extend of news coverage points to a desire to learn more about this event, but unfortunately, there is a lot missing.

One example: for the list of mass suicides in Mecklenburg in 1945 the Spiegel article is given as a reference. In the article the numbers are attributed to one Dieter Krüger, himself a "survivor". How did he get this information?

Second example: Andrea Bscheid is given as a reference for "the largest recorded mass suicide in Germany". Cause of death "drowning". But, as Plato points out, the numbers used in this context are estimates, which he finds very high (sehr hoch erscheinende Schätzungen). As the lady is a psychologist, she might be forgiven to make such a misleading statement in her thesis, as it is of no relevance to her work. But she can hardly be considered a "reliable source" in this case.

I am not sure whether this is about POV or about Verifiability. In any case, the article is definitely oddly lopsided.

--红卫兵 (talk) 05:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

• Not only those reports are based solely on German media, but seem to be synthesised. A lot of information on background is missing and avoids mentioning important facts observed by scholars regarding the suicides in Nazi Germany downfall. Additional problem is that most eye witness accounts were recorded by a commission headed by former Nazis who tried to use their work for propaganda aiming at restoring old borders of Nazi Germany. I made a brief article about mass suicide wave phenomenon right now(Mass suicides in 1945 Nazi Germany), but will continue to expand it soon, and then integrate information from there here. Also I found interesting information-besides the fact that Neonazis try to exploit this event-there seems to be an eyewitness record that is not German-mainly that of Polish slave workers liberated in Demmin at the time. The book(Gdy byliśmy literą P:wspomnienia wywiezionych na przymusowe roboty do III RzeszyZofia Bigorajska, Władysława Pietruczuk-Kurkiewiczowa - 1968) is available in nearby city so I will try to get hold of it and see if they mention there anything about. The Red Army entry in Demmin is definetely described there.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The problem is, that information was strictly suppressed for such a long time! And it seems to me, there are attempts to suppress it even today. Obviously is, that such a mass suicide can't happen, only because of propaganda. Why, for instance not in Hannover? The trigger were experiences on a large scale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.43.98.245 (talk) 06:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Or put differently, why are we talking about Demmin and not, say, Anklam, Friedland, Prenzlau. Actually there is a prevalence of "family suicides" when parents or a parent looses hope in the future. And I can imagine, the end of Nazi rule in Germany was "the end of the world" for many Germans, not only in Demmin. --红卫兵 (talk) 06:57, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Don't confuse background and trigger. A feeling like perhaps 'end of the world' is the background but not the trigger for such a mass suicide of families. Such a trigger are very special personal experiences. And in Demmin this was concentrated, caused by especially circumstances. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.43.98.245 (talk) 14:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

That leaves it wide open to interpretation what is background and what is trigger. How does the presence of Soviet troops trigger a mass suicide? Why does it so in a number of Pomeranian towns, but not in other towns occupied by Soviet troops? Where the victims mostly locals or refugees from the East who had been exposed to the rumours about Soviet atrocities much longer? How did the 60 years of silence affect the memory of the people cited as eyewitnesses? So far I have not found any answers to that in the sources quoted.--红卫兵 (talk) 19:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

For background vs triggers see the section directly below. De728631 (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Re 红卫兵's question about Dieter Krüger's list of deaths. The Spiegel article says that he collected the information from documents and witnesses, after the German reunification.

Wel, the photo in the Spiegel article shows dates and causes of death. They do not include the conclusion "suicide". Therefore it would be appropriate to attribute these estimates to Mr. Krüger, and point out, that he is an amateur historian.--红卫兵 (talk) 19:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The death register (PDF article) does in fact mention "Selbstmord durch vergiften (suicide by poisoning)" in the very first row and "erhängt" means "hanged" (n.b. in case of an official execution by hanging the term "gehenkt" would have been used). And according to the article, Krüger was explicitely researching the suicides, not general deaths: "Als er in den achtziger Jahren in den Museumsdienst wechselte, machte er sich daran, die Geschehnisse um das Kriegsende und die Tragödien der Freitoten zu rekonstruieren (When he was transferred to service at a museum in the 1980s he started reconstructing the tragedy of the suicides)." De728631 (talk) 20:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

You're right on the first on, but may I point out, that Nazi death squads hanged a lot of 'defeatists' in the last days of the war. BTW are those Krüger's notes on the picture? Looks like a balance book to me.--红卫兵 (talk) 05:23, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

They wouldn't be based on Schieder commission would they?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

No, I checked Schieder Commission, events in Demmin were not mentioned, Demmin was not in area of expulsions--Woogie10w (talk) 17:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

German and Austrian hisStorians and sources (not mass media or politicians) about Demmin describe the reasons as panic and mass psychosis

• "In einem Anfall von Depression--": Selbsttötungen in der DDR Udo Grashoff

Page 184. Mentions Demmin in context of hysteria and panic invoked by Nazi Propaganda against Russians.

• Nationalsozialismus: Ursprünge, Anfänge, Aufstieg und Fall Kurt Bauer

Page 533

Directly calls the suicides in Demmin a result of mass psychosis. In der vorpommerschen Kleinstadt Demmin verübten in den ersten Maitagen 1945 in einer Massenpsychose an die 1000 Menschen Selbstmord, zumeist durch Ertränken.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The article will have to be changed to give primacy to scholarly views with media claims for reasons being secondary ones.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:05, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

And again there is no direct link to Nazi propaganda as you would like to see and you convienently seem to ignore the sentence after Grashoff's referral to Nazi propaganda on p. 184, which is then followed directly by Demmin as an example for this second stage: "Den ersten von Angst und Panik bestimmten Selbstötungen folgte in vielen Orten eine zweite Selbsttötungswelle, nachdem es zu Hinrichtungen, Plünderungen und massenhaften Vergewaltigungen durch die Besatzer gekommen war. Im mecklenburgischen Demmin zum Beispiel nahmen sich innerhalb einer Woche von dem 15000 Einwohnern etwa 700 das Leben. (lit.: These first suicides determined by fear and panic were frequently followed by another wave of suicides after it had come to executions, plunderings and mass rapes by the occupying forces. For example in Mecklenburgian Demmin, 700 out of 15,000 citizens took their lives within a week. [Reference to Buske]). And where does Kurt Bauer directly connect Demmin and Nazi propaganda? In fact he doesn't but if you read page 533, he clearly writes about mass rapes by Soviet soldiers which became a "collective trauma" of German women. "Mass suicides of people who had not been able to escape the Red Army were another terrifying phenomenon in the final stage of the war. In the Western Pommeranian town of Demmin about 1,000 commited suicide in a mass psychosis...".

I agree that scholarly sources should be preferred if available but your logic of reading and presenting then is again biased. It is you who is not being neutral in this discussion. De728631 (talk) 15:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Contrary to what you claim, the book by Udo Grasshoff makes no seperate section dividing panic and Nazi propaganda. The Demmin case is mentioned right under the paragraph where Nazi propaganda is mentioned. As to the second book-mass psychosis is clearly not mass rape although it could be probably influenced by rape.Note that although Wehrmacht engaged in mass rapes in Soviet Union(with up to 10mln victims) there weren't many mass suicides comparable-thus this can't be the explanation for that.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Here is a typical example of Nazi propaganda from 1945 [11]--Woogie10w (talk) 17:33, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Molobo, the Demmin case is used by Grashoff to illustrate the "second wave" of suicides that he explicitely said were caused by atrocities committed by the Red Army. And let me quote Bauer's reasoning (p. 533): "In den ersten Wochen soll so gut wie jede Frau zwischen 12 und 60 Jahren, die in die Hände der Russen fiel, Opfer von Vergewaltigungen geworden sein.... Von zwei Millionen Vergewaltigungsopfern in den von der Roten Armee besetzten Gebieten ist in der Literatur die Rede. Jede zehnte Frau dürfte an den Folgen der Massenvergewaltigungen gestorben sein oder anschließend Suizid verübt haben. Massenselbsttötungen von Menschen, die der Roten Armee nicht hatten entkommen können, waren ein weiteres erschreckendes Phänomen in der Kriegsendphase. In... Demmin verübten in den ersten Maitagen 1945 an die 1000 Menschen Selbstmord, zumeist durch Ertränken.(During the first two weeks, almost every woman between 12 and 60 years of age that became prey to the Russians was said to have become a rape victim.... Literature mentions the number of 2 million rape cases in the areas occupied by the Red Army. Every tenth woman is likely to have died from the from the impact of mass rapes or to have comitted suicided afterwards. Mass suicided of people who had failed to escape the Red Army were another disturbing phenomenon in the final stage of the war. In Demmin, during the first days of May 1945, about 1,000 people commited suicide.)" So to sum it up: in this particular passage, Bauer states that mass rape by the Red Army was a common phenomenon in the occupied areas. He presents numbers of victims and then mentions the events in Demmin. I don't get where you see the massive suicides of Demmin connected to Nazi propaganda in this passage. Mind you, I don't doubt that there were occasional propaganda related killings (cf. that teacher Moldenhauer) but the main issue is still that the massive surge of suicides was triggered by the Red Army's direct behaviour and happened after their occupying the town. And comparing the event to mass suicides by the Wehrmacht in Russia and drawing conclusions from it, is your personal original research.

And Woogie, your youtube link is blocked for me. However, the question is not how Nazi propaganda depicted the evil eastern hordes and instirred fear among the population by doing so, that's recognized fact. The question here remains if Nazi propaganda was a considerable factor that lead to the suicides of Demmin. And although Molobo believes so, I cannot find any evidence in his sources. De728631 (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

De728631 is right, the sources are quoted here, I have included them in the article with extensive quotes. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

However, the question is not how Nazi propaganda depicted the evil eastern hordes

• The Nazi demonization of the Red Army, including for example eyewitness accounts of Bolshevik atrocities in Nemmersdorf, a village in East Prussia, in October 1944, helped to create a suicidal atmosphere

Goeschel, Christian Suicide in Nazi Germany Oxford University Press 2009 page 157

I don't get where you see the massive suicides of Demmin connected to Nazi propaganda in this passage. It's right there in *"In einem Anfall von Depression--": Selbsttötungen in der DDR Udo Grashoff page 183(es handelte sich dabei zum Teil um Panikreaktionen aus einer von der nationalsozialistischen Propaganda geschürten Angst vor den Russen). Bauer mentions the reasons in Demmin as mass psychosis. Also if the reason were alledged rapes than why didn't the Soviet families commit mass suicides when Wehrmacht soldiers engaged in mass rapes in Soviet Union? Anyway scholars like Christian Goeschell and Udo Grasshoff mention Nazi propaganda as creating suitable breeding ground for mass sucides.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

The suicides in Germany at the end of the war are by no means a unique occurrence in human history. In the south after the US Civil war there was an increase in the number of suicides [12]

I have known southerners who were offended when I mentioned that my great-grandfather was in Sherman's March to the Sea and Burning of Columbia South Carolina They expected an apology from this dammed Yankee. My point is let’s leave our emotions aside on Wikipedia and see what the historical sources are saying.--Woogie10w (talk) 20:04, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Woogie10w-we also have to remember that numerous Jews took their lives in Nazi Germany.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Good point Molobo, Martin Gilbert relates accounts of Jewish suicides in his book "The Holocaust"

See also Battle of Saipan#Civilian surrenders and suicides

What the historical sources are saying? Ah, the NY Public Library has an excellant collection of books in German, I have just retired, stay tuned.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:16, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I plan to do a search in Google books-Deutschland for Demmin 1945 and then try to get the real books at the NY Public library. --Woogie10w (talk) 21:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

The article is overall a good piece of work, tomorrow I need to read those German sources posted online. Also a brief mention of the May 2010 events should be addded. I wish an editor in Germany would do this job, they will have a better understanding of what really happened.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I reviewed the German news sources in this article and found no problems with regard to the articles neutrality. The You-Tube clips covering the May 2010 demo in Demmin indicate that there was no support or participation by the local residents, only some mean looking young men escorted by police. Other You-Tube clips from the region indicate that there is ony limited support for the radical right. The article should and could cover this aspect of the Demmin tragedy, I wish an editor in Germany would do this job, they will have a better understanding of what really happened in May 2010. --Woogie10w (talk) 12:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

What "really happened" is out of question, the question is whether this should be included in this article, see above. Skäpperöd (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, the Nazi march taking place in 2010 is not to be debated. But the Youtube clips themselves cannot be used to establish notability per WP:RS and the only reliable account on the May 2010 rally was that rather short news item by Ostseewelle, a Rostock based local radio station; that Nazi march is simply not notable. To include it based on a single source would be WP:UNDUE in my opinion. De728631 (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I am an American who does not have full access to the local German media in MVP. At this point all I do know is that the NPD and the radical right in germany tried to rally public opinion in May 2010 by exploiting the wartime tragedy in Demmin. The radical right ploy seemed to attract little interest nor public support in Germany. Then by sheer coincidence the wartime tragedy in Demmin pops up on English Wikipedia as an issue. What's up Doc? --Woogie10w (talk) 15:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Please, can we have this in one section (above), and maybe you explain there why you think it was an NPD rally? Skäpperöd (talk) 15:40, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

This is why. [13] I have no issue with the article, it is well done. I just wonder why all of a sudden it appears on English Wikipedia? What's up Doc?--Woogie10w (talk) 16:19, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

And once again to Molobo, I don't doubt that propdaganda led to a good deal of suicides across Eastern Germany in that days, but the question remains if the massive waves of suicides that started after the plundering of Demmin by the Soviets can be traced back to propaganda. If propaganda alone had been that effective, a great number of suicides would have occured already when the city was cut off by blowing up the bridges or even earlier when news arrived that the Russians were approaching. The books by Bauer and Grashoff surely prove that there was a big impact of propaganda on the German psyche, but their examples of Demmin are even not referring to propaganda but to the other extreme for a change, atrocity-induced suicides. And comparing Demmin to the events sparked by the Wehrmacht in Russia would be comparing apples to quinces. De728631 (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Your personal views can't be used as sources on Wiki. The research on suicides in 1945 Nazi Germany in which Demmin is mentioned does include Nazi propaganda among the factors. The Background section should both mention in specific way the mass suicides and their reasons.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:05, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

De728631 did not forward personal views, but the views of Bauer and Grashoff, who do point out Nazi propaganda as one of the factors contributing to the first wave of late-war suicides, but both mention Demmin as an example for the second wave triggered by atrocities of Red Army soldiers. The respective excerpts from the sources have been quoted at length. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Personal interpration. None of the two authors seperate Nazi propaganda from the events. Anyway, since the Mass sucidies in Nazi Germany article is rough but in good condition, I will rewrite this article today, with expanded background including the wider context of the events.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:10, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I see. And your interpretation of Bauer and Grashoff is surely not personal? De728631 (talk) 17:12, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Response to RfC

This article superficially reads like an interesting and dispassionate account of a tragic event in World War II. Reading the talk page shows good faith concerns. The references show more reliance on German language publications that I would prefer. I have no opinion at present. Suggestion: editors on each side should briefly summarize their positions, with specific citations to the text. Figureofnine (talk) 16:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The article is well written with good sources, however I would like to see mention in the article that the radical right in Germany has attempted to turn the tragic events of 1945 into a propaganda 2010 political issue.--Woogie10w (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree, that should be added. Figureofnine (talk) 16:49, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Summary

I think the current status of the article is factually correct, sourced and neutral. I disagree though with adding the 2010 right wing issue to the article since there is no proof whatsoever that this attempt has received any notable coverage by multiple sources. What you keep presenting is the general agenda of of the radical right in Germany that has always tried to use 1945 events across Germany for their purposes. A single newsfeed of a few lines about a non-notable local right-wing group "Freies Pommern" trying to commemorate the end of the war in Demmin does not establish a reliable claim that mass suicides of Demmin in particular have been a political topic anywhere beyond Demmin itself and beyond the NPD in 2010. The NPD tried to jump the train by calling to join the demonstration in Demmin but as Ostseewelle reported, the march was banned by the city council and didn't even take place. This attempted May 2010 march is in fact a non-issue. De728631 (talk)

The Free Pomeria people wouldn't be linked to that lot, would they? --红卫兵 (talk) 06:01, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure that this is the same group? The report mentions a website with this name, the rally was organized by an association with that name. There should be a source linking the two before we do so. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The web didn't work with my other computer (thanks Steve!), but this should be obvious.--红卫兵 (talk) 12:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree, but the 'demonstration' did take place - the town forbade it, a court modified this decision the day before. The question is what to make of it. The association that organized the demonstration is a non-notable group, the demonstration was non-notable - so far, attention has been denied to that group (3 google hits, two of which are mirrors.) Anybody who introduces this group into a wikipedia article is responsible for changing this situation, and granting them worldwide attention. Your choice, I advise against it. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

As Columbo would say "Just one more question" -Who is this group that you refer to? Might it be duh NPD?

What happened in MVP on 8 May? I have been reading Norddeutsche Neueste Nachrichten on the internet.

They reported Neo-Nazi vandalism as being a problem and an attempt by the ultra right to disrupt commerations on May 8th to the victims of Fascism. Please tell us Skäpperöd what really happened on May 8th in MVP.--Woogie10w (talk) 17:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I have responded below. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Just to modify my previous comment, the recent politicization of this event should be used if there are reliable sources. If there are, please list them here, and please provide a summary in English if they are in German. Figureofnine (talk) 18:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Rechte Aufmärsche stören Gedenktag. This is Norddeutsche Neueste Nachrichten's article on the events of 8 May 2010. The general coverage is about right-wingers trying to disturb ceremonies across MVP that commemorated the capitulation of Germany on 8 May 1945. The only account of anything happening in Demmin is about 250 police who had to escort an equal number of extreme right demonstrators to protect them from 40 counter-demonstrators. Nothing is said there about mass suicides in Demmin in 1945 and Demmin on 8 May 2010 received 4 lines in that entire article. What happened on that day might well fit into an article about right wing extremism in Germany but in this article it would be undue weight. The mass suicides of Demmin have not been politicised beyond that very town at all. De728631 (talk) 18:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Re Woogie's latest question: the group Skäpperöd refers to is called "Vereinigung Freies Pommern" as could be read in above in my first "summary statement". See Ostseewelle. De728631 (talk) 21:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

[14] This source is reliable and mentions the protests of far right in context of events in Demmin. This source is reliable as well and mentions exploitation by far right of the events as well[15]. I guess others can be found as well.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:23, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

This gives editors in Germany a good opportunity to point out the fact that the vast majority of the German people do not support the Neo-Nazis and that the German police are on top of the problem. Unfortunately there are still some persons in the English speaking world that associate all Germans with the Nazis and Hitler. Here is a chance for Germans with knowledge of the politics in MVP to rectify those misconceptions. Go for it.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not Wikipedia's task to "rectify" any political points of view. Wikipedia should not be political at all. De728631 (talk) 13:08, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Please translate

http://www.mvregio.de/mvr/406292.html

• 06.05.2010: Schwerin/MVregio Der innenpolitische Sprecher der Linksfraktion, Peter Ritter (Foto), begrüßt das von der Verwaltung des Landkreises Demmin ausgesprochene Verbot einer Demonstration von Rechtsextremisten am 8. Mai in Demmin.

"Rechtsextreme Kräfte versuchen immer wieder das für viele Demminerinnen und Demminer erlebte und erlittene Schicksal zum Kriegsende 1945 auf perverse Art und Weise für ihre Zwecke zu missbrauchen", erklärte Ritter am Donnerstag. Dies dürfe angesichts der vielen Opfer eines sinnlosen, vom faschistischen Deutschland angezettelten Krieges nicht geduldet werden.

"Erst jüngst lieferte die NPD-Fraktion im Landtag erneut ein Beispiel für ihren Umgang mit der Geschichte", sagte Ritter. In gewohnter Weise habe die NPD erneut die Verantwortung des faschistischen Deutschlands für weltweiten Massenmord, Krieg, Elend und Vertreibung geleugnet.

"Derartiges Gedankengut darf auf den Straßen Demmins keinen Raum finden", betonte Ritter. "Erfreulicherweise gibt es in Demmin ein breites engagiertes Bündnis von Gewerkschaften, Parteien, Vereinen und Verbänden, das mit vielfältigen Aktivitäten für eine Stärkung von Demokratie und Toleranz wirbt."

Here is my quick and dirty translation

The spokesperson of the Left wing faction Peter Knight welcomed the local government’s ban of the 8 May demonstration in Demmin

The Right Wing elements are using the end of war suffering of the population of Demmin for their own purposes said Ritter on Thursday. This would be unacceptable to the victims of Fascist Germany Just recently Ritter pointed out that representatives of the NPD faction in the local assembly had given an example of their historical outlook. The NDP renewed their standard denial of Fascist Germanys world wide mass murder, war, hunger and expulsions.

Such ideas should find no place on the streets of Demmin. It is welcoming that there are In Demmin a wide alliance in shops, political parties, groups and alliances with many activities to build democracy and tolerance

IMO this is worthless communist propaganda, forget it- it won’t fly on Wikipedia--Woogie10w (talk) 23:43, 28 August 2010 (UTC) Whatever it is true or not is not our right to judge-what we do have are reliable sources confirming the events and dispute.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:08, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

http://www.verfassungsschutz-mv.de/cms2/Verfassungsschutz_prod/Verfassungsschutz/content_downloads/Verfassungsschutzberichte/VS-Bericht_2009.pdf

• In Demmin fand unter dem Motto: „8. Mai 1945 -Kein Grund zum Feiern. Vergessen wir Tod, Leid und Besatzung

nicht“ ein Trauer- und Gedenkmarsch mir 240 Personen statt. Bei der der Kundgebung traten mehrere Redner auf; anschließend wurde ein Kranz niedergelegt. Der Marsch war von einem Wahlkreismitarbeiter der NPD beim zuständigen Ordnungsamt angemeldet worden. Darüber hinaus wurden in mehreren Städten und Gemeinden Plakataktionen durchgeführt. In Laage und in Diekhof (Landkreis Güstrow) wurden zwischenzeitlich verschiedene Plakate und Aufkleber der verbotenen rechtsextremistischen Gruppierung „Mecklenburgische Aktionsfront“ (MAF) mit dem Inhalt „08. Mai 1945 Vergewaltigung, Siegerwillkür, Besatzung, Landraub, Mord. Wir feiern nicht“ www.aktionsfront.org“ geklebt. In Güstrow wurden Plakate mit der Aufschrift „8. Mai 1954 Besetzt - Belogen - Umerzogen“ angebracht. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:22, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Here is my quick and dirty translation

This 2009 report is from the local German internal security service In MVP

In Demmin under the motto May 8th No reason to celebrate- We won’t forget death, suffering and occupation not a funeral and commeration march 240 persons instead. At the assembly were many speakers and at the end a wreath was laid. The march was organized by the election public control office of the NPD. In Laage & Diekhof (district Gustrow) were various placards of the banned right wing group MAF with the content 8 May 1945 Rape, excesses, occupation, robbery, death We don’t celebrate www.aktionsfront.org were posted. In Gustrow were found placards with the date 8 May 1954 (sic) occupied, disposed,

This is a better source, the police in Germany consider these people a threat--Woogie10w (talk) 00:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Woogie-this source[16] informs about CDU member protesting against exploitation of those events by NPD-so mainstream parties also protested.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:49, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The report cited above does not connect the rally to the mass suicide. To the contrary, the first sentence (the one before "In Demmin...") reads:

"Der 8. Mai als Tag der bedingungslosen Kapitulation der deutschen Wehrmacht im Jahr 1945 und damit der Beendigung des Zweiten Weltkrieges in Europa wird von Rechtsextremisten regelmäßig zum Anlass für besondere Aktivitäten genommen..." (8 May as the day of the German Wehrmacht's unconditional surrender in the year 1945 and thus the conclusion of WWII in Europe is regularily taken as an inducement for special activities by the far right)

Skäpperöd (talk) 09:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure it does Skapperod-in the part you missed:

Ausdrücklich sprach der CDU-Fraktionsvorsitzende eine für den 6. Mai geplante Veranstaltung der NPD an, mit der diese in Demmin die dortigen Gräueltaten bei Kriegsende für sich ausschlachten wolle--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:19, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

That line is not in the Verfassungsschutz report, but in the mvregio post, which is being discussed in the section below. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

8 May rallies

8 May is the official memorial day for the liberation and the victims of the Nazi era in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. On this day, representatives of the state as well as NGOs traditionally celebrate the anniversary of the end of the Nazi era and publicly commemorate the Nazis' victims. This is just to clarify, as various links to small 8 May ultra-right-wing rallies have been brought up above. They do not necessarily relate to the 1945 events in Demmin, and if they do, these events are not the central theme of these rallies. They oppose the memorial day for obvious reasons and usually are either forbidden or take place on the fringes of some town(s), with very few participants escorted by many police, and do not receive any significant press coverage or attention (except for attention from the police, the Verfassungsschutz, officials involved with banning them, and their own as well as the ultra-left-wing blogosphere). Skäpperöd (talk) 06:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah but the article is about Demmin, not the rallies. Thus while information about Demmin in articles about those rallies could be unneccessary, the information about Demmin in those rallies is important in article about it. Furthermore are you saying MVRegio is a ultra-left site? It seems a regional news source not a ultra left site. Are you saying Ostseewelle Radio is a ultra left wing site ? Also CDU isn't ultra left wing either [17].--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

"and do not receive any significant press coverage". Occasional press coverage on a regional level as in mvregio.net and a regional UHF radio like Ostseewelle are hardly significant. If any national media had repeatedly brought Demmin and its past as a Nazi agenda, then we might add a phrase mentioning Neo-Nazi controversies in this article. On that same note: it's an established fact that there are annual Nazi rallies in May in Demmin and elsewhere, so why doesn't the article Demmin mention them? De728631 (talk) 13:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

AFAIK not even local press covered the rally, and for MVregio see here. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The 1945 tragedy in Demmin is not a major issue Germany today. However, the NPD has chosen to exploit this tragedy for political purposes in MVP in order to rally support for their cause. In May they hold demonstrations in Demmin that have little or no public support .The NPD is considered a threat to public order by the local police and is detested by most of the local German people who support the democratic system. These Neo-Nazi elements are currently engaged in campaign to vandalize memorials to the victims of the Nazis in MVP.

The current article is a well documented account of the 1945 tragedy in Demmin. The article then goes on to mention that in the post war DDR the Demmin tragedy was a taboo topic. I have just one more question (as Columbo would say) Then why is there no mention here of the post war exploitation of this tragedy by the radical right?--Woogie10w (talk) 13:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

You've just answered that yourself, because it's not a major issue [in] Germany today. The GDR tabooization was ordered on a national level and must be mentioned in the article to explain the lack of available sources. And it's nothing new that Federal Germany's intelligence is monitoring NPD and all other right-wing organisations, independently of anything related to Demmin, that is. That's even stated in our article about NPD. The specific events of May 1945 in Demmin though have not received enough public attention with regards to Neo-nazism to mention that in this article. As we say in Germany, you're trying to turn a mosquito into an elephant. I don't deny that Neo-Nazis try to exploit Demmin for their cause, that's a sad fact. But Wikipedia should be restricted to core matters and mentioning Nazi party engagement in this matter where it has not been an issue on a broad level would mean giving the topic (and its initiators) undue weight. De728631 (talk) 15:33, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The issue is in the German press. The German Police were following the May 2010 activities of the radical right in Demmin and they are now combating a wave of neo-Nazi vandalism in the town. A brief mention of this in the article would not be undue weight. In fact this will give decent Germans the opportunity to repudiate the radical right and set the record straight. Most Germans today are decent people who support the democratic system, unfortunately there are some people over here America still have the misconception that most Germans are Nazi sympathizers. Let them know that this is not true.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:58, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, if your main motivation is to convince some people in America that the Krauts are decent people after all, I'd like you to read WP:SOAP. De728631 (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

And Wiki rules aside, it is my opinion (and obviously also Skäpperöd's) that by adding the Nazi issue to the article you'd only achieve the opposite, i.e. creating unwarranted publicity for NPD and their minions. De728631 (talk) 16:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

My point exactly. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The word Kraut is a Pejorative and just like Amis does not belong on Wikipedia. BTW I have been told by friends that I have a thick Kraut mentality.

IMO The German based editors should write this, if the editors from Poland do so they might choose stronger language. A few sentences will do the job nicely. For example In Germany today the radical right has attempted to turn the 1945 tragedy in Demmin into a political issue. Their goal is to use the tragedy in Demmin to trivialize the crimes of the Nazi regime. This attempt to exploit the Demmin tragedy is rejected by the vast majority of Germans who are appalled by the crimes of Hitler Germany.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:16, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed we can integrate this information without endorsing it-articles on untermeschen or Holocaust and numerous atrocities after all cover such subjects without endorsing them.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:08, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at my userpage, I'm allowed to use pejoratives on myself and fellow Germans ;) De728631 (talk) 20:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources for recent far-right exploit of the mass suicide - sufficient or insufficient for inclusion in the article?

I opened this section to organize the discussion, as it has spread over multiple sections. I want editors to list here the sources available for recent far-right exploits of the 1945 mass suicide, to have them all in one place. This should help evaluate if the coverage by sources meets the treshold for an inclusion in this article, which is the key issue in the above disagreement, and may then be decided by discussion and/or straw poll, with participation enhanced by an RfC. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any reason for a straw poll or anything like that. As noted by others this has been barely researched(the article barely meets the notablility criteria as well), they are numerous mentions by mainstream politicians covered in reliable sources about exploitation and exaggeration of this event by German far right in German parts Pomerania(which during the research I discovered seems to be hotspot of such activity in Germany, we will need later to cover it in respected article). I seen no reason not to explain to readers that the event is currently being exploited by certain German Pomeranian organisations. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

If there are indeed "numerous mentions by mainstream politicians covered in reliable sources about exploitation and exaggeration of this event by German far right", then listing these sources should not be a problem. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

They have been listed numerous times here.Please read the discussion page. Thank you in advance and have good day.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

List

Links connecting far right rallies to the Demmin mass suicides listed so far were:

• two youtube videos [18] [19]
• [20] a short note on the website of Ostsewelle, a local UHF pop music radio station. The note is attributed to dpa though, if it is this dpa it is at least reliable.
• [21] a statement of a PDS politician on mvregio. The website has been criticized here and its local impact is unknown. The PDS politician cited confirms an exploit of the 1945 events in Demmin by the far-right and speaks up against it.

Have I missed any? Skäpperöd (talk) 15:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC) Yes, you did.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC) For example this statement by CDU politician[22]--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Another statement posted at mvregio, same concerns as for the other mvregio statement above. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

The 2009 report of the Police in MVP and the action to ban the march by the Demmin local government seems to me to be soild sources that can be cited.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Please do so, that is the point ofthis section. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The local police want to ban the NPD in MVP [23]

Not the police (the police has no power to do so) but government officials, and not just in MV but Germany-wide, for years. This is however not related to 1945 in Demmin. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Skapperod you are there, what can you tell us about this surge of Neo-Nazi activity in your backyard?--Woogie10w (talk) 15:02, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Would you mind moving this to your or my talk page? I will respond there. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed this is interesting, from what I gathered during search for sources on thise event MVP was place of strong pro-Nazi sentiments before the war, and also today is one of the main centers of nationalist movement in Germany. Definetely something notable enough to describe in related pages about German areas of Pomerania.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The German Police report re radical right activities in Demmin seems reliable to me. If there are any objections to its use we should take the case to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, we may need their opinion on this issue.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

If you are referring to this report, it does not show a connection to the suicides. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Let's sum it up what we've got in terms of sources linking far-right extremists to the mass suicides of Demmin in May 1945:

• Two YouTube videos that fail WP:RS by default.
• A brief DPA newsfeed on a local pop radio, a note that apparently didn't survive anywhere else.
• Two political statements on mvregio.net, a non-notable website that has been criticised by the Ver.di workers' union for being a platform that only provides publicity for NPD while appearing "professional". If at all this source should be brought to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard for review.
• A report by the MV state intelligence office, if you will, that mentions Demmin in connection with Nazi activities but that in turn does not explicitely refer to the 1945 mass suicides in its analysis. All they do mention when referring to Demmin is an ambiguous Nazi slogan "8 May 1945. Let's not forget occupation, grief, etc." .

So while the police report and the radio page are certainly reliable, I for one question the integrity of that mvregio site. That said, I don't see any notable and significant coverage of the specific issue of "1945 mass suicides in Demmin and Neo-nazis in modern Germany". It's trivial and overall non-notable. De728631 (talk) 21:45, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

On what basis do you question the notability of the regional news site. Anyway it presents opinions of high ranking CDU official which is certainly very notable and needs to be covered. As mentioned earlier this barely notable event in itself so those sources are no worse than others.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

If it is in fact just an NPD proxy as the union implies, then it will of course make a fuss out of anything Nazi-related and blow things out of proportion that would otherwise only be reported "in other news", if at all. De728631 (talk) 17:10, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The NPD has chosen the 1945 tradgey in Demmin as a propaganda issue in MVP. At this time the NPD is engaging in campaign of vandalism in Demmin .The local police chief in MVP has been the target of a smear campaign by the NPD. The police want the NPD banned in MVP because they are a threat to public order. There is a direct connection between the 1945 tradgey in Demmin and 2010 right wing extremism in MVP. We need to have this mentioned in the article. This is not a minor issue in MVP. Don't forget with the internet and Google news we can read the local news in MVP.--Woogie10w (talk) 17:21, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The NPD has chosen the 1945 atrocities of Soviet forces anywhere in East Germany as a propaganda issue, so Demmin's nothing special. And it has already been tried to ban NPD on a federal level, so that's not news either. And I can tell you that the mass suicides of Demmin are in fact a minor issue in today's politics and everyday life in MV. Otherwise, please show me one or more of your local news sources that we haven't seen already on this talk page and that I might have missed while reading the paper or watching TV news over here. De728631 (talk) 17:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

With Google news we all know what is going on in Timbuktu –Aus dem Hut machen--Woogie10w (talk) 18:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The NPD has chosen the 1945 atrocities of Soviet forces anywhere in East Germany as a propaganda issue, so Demmin's nothing specialIt is special though if it involves the subject of the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

My position would be that the sources listed above (youtube videos etc.) are not reliable sources and insufficient to mention far-right exploitation of the suicides. I suggest waiting until there is more mass media pickup. Figureofnine (talk) 18:44, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

As of now, it seems that not even local press has reported about that. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

We have several sources from local news, police report, statements by regional CDU party leader regarding this(also in regional news). So...plenty of sources from reliable outlets, not youtube.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:30, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

There's been some further discussion on my talk page. Now I think the police report is usable. Not sure about the Youtube. It can certainly be used as an external link. Figureofnine (talk) 01:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The "police" report (actually it is Verfassungsschutz, not police) does not refer to the suicides at all, it is about far right activities against the 8 May festivities in general. How do you think it is usable? Skäpperöd (talk) 09:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The report is by the local Innenministerium Interior Ministry in English. I translated this as police. The report on the protection of the Constitution refers directly to the exploitation of the 1945 tradgedy by the radical right. The source is reliable and should be used to point out the connection between the 1945 tradgegy and modern Neo-Nazi activity in Demmin. The author of the report Lorenz Caffier wants to ban the the right wing NPD. Also the local press has recently reported that that the NPD has been engaging in a campaign to slander Caffier.--Woogie10w (talk) 10:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

This Y-Tube clip is informative- [24]

You do not have to understand German to grasp the significance of this May 2009 torch light parade that exploited the tragic events of 1945. This torchlight parade in Demmin was just like those in 1933 Germany, the government in Germany today regards this as a real threat to the democratic system. The Police report cited above refers directly to this demonstration. This is why the German government wants to ban the Neo-Nazi marches in Demmin.

I rest my case on this German government report which is meant for public consumption, the You-Tube clips would never be used on Wikipedia as sources, I inserted them to drive home the point that the radical right in Germany is exploiting the Demmin tradgedy

To put this in an American context- Think of the KKK holding a rally and burning crosses--Woogie10w (talk) 10:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The youtube clip does not connect the rally and the suicides, it connects the rally to pretty much everything that the individual who is responsible for the video clip thinks went bad after the war, but has no relevance for the subject of this article.

That NPD (which is different from KKK) is using torches in their parades is not new and not special for Demmin [25]. The key issue here is whether the report connects the rally in Demmin and the suicides (subject of this article), and whether such a connection is substantiated by RS.

You said that the 2009 Verfassungsschutz report "refers directly to the exploitation of the 1945 tradgedy by the radical right." Where does it do so? Please cite the respective line.

Skäpperöd (talk) 10:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

On Page 31

-Der 8. Mai als Tag der bedingungslosen Kapitulation der deutschen Wehrmacht im Jahr 1945 und damit der Beendigung des Zweiten Weltkrieges in Europa wird von Rechtsextremisten regelmäßig zum Anlass für besondere Aktivitäten genommen, so auch im Jahr 2009. In Demmin fand unter dem Motto: „8. Mai 1945 -

Kein Grund zum Feiern. Vergessen wir Tod, Leid und Besatzung nicht“ ein Trauer- und Gedenkmarsch mir 240 Personen statt.

The Interior Ministry report refers directly to the exploitation of the 1945 tradgedy by the radical right."--Woogie10w (talk) 10:57, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It does not. Translation: "8 May as the day of the German Wehrmacht's unconditional surrender in the year 1945 and thus the conclusion of WWII in Europe is regularily taken as an inducement for special activities by the far right, also so in 2009. In Demmin, a threnodic and memorial march with 240 participants took place under the motto "8 May - no reason to celebrate. Don't we forget death, sorrow and occupation". The report continues with other anti-8 May actions that took place in other communities. Skäpperöd (talk) 11:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes it does, the Neo Nazi slogan in Demmin was May 8 1945 We do not forget death, sorrow and occupation. this is of course an an attempt to exploit the Demmin tradgedy in 1945.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

But it refers to death, sorrow and occupation in general, it does not specify which ones. To relate it to the suicides is an unsubstianted interpretation, if the youtube clip you presented was a RS than it could be reliably sourced that the rally was meant to "memorize" (in a strange way that is) every death and sorrow which happend to Germans in the late war and thereafter. Skäpperöd (talk) 11:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Woogie here. It is clear that it connects to Demmin. We also have CDU party leader making this connection. Sources are reliable and can be used.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. There is no explicit reference to the suicides. It would be a violation of WP:SYN to use this report, on the strength of that passage. I am hampered by the fact that this report is in German and I am relying entirely on good faith translations by editors here. Figureofnine (talk) 15:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

You wrote that the NPD (which is different from KKK) When I saw those crosses burning in Demmin on Y-Tube, I looked at it from an American POV--Woogie10w (talk) 11:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

There was no burning cross in the youtube clip. Torches, yes, but no crosses. As pointed out above, NPD likes torches, but this is neither specific to that rally nor is it specific to NPD - see "Fackelzug" and "Fackelumzug". Skäpperöd (talk) 11:47, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I see burning crosses at the beginning of the You-Tube clip [26] and a Neo-Nazi torch light parade in Demmin on May 8, 2009 a la Germany in 1933

All we need to say is “Today in Demmin the Neo-Nazis are attempting to exploit the suffering of the German people in 1945. The vast majority of Germans reject this propaganda and the local authorities are seeking a ban on this activity.” There is no reason to make a big deal of the fact that the events of 1945 are being dragged into 2010 by the Neo-Nazis, but it needs to be mentioned.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:54, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

At heart, I completely agree with the above proposal, it is really just about whether and how it should be presented in this wikipedia article, as it seems that reports about an exploit of the suicides by far-right groups are largely limited to far-left and far-right blogs, and the non-blog sources listed above are youtube, a local pop music radio station, and the statements of two politicians at a website that according to ver.di (here) is run by a criminal and is itself usually promoting far-right views by excessively producing statements of NPD politicians. Whether that website even has a significant local impact is uncertain, too.

So far, we have no coverage by local press, let alone state, country-wide or international press, books, tv etc. This means if we mention the far-right activity here, even if we mention how this is disregarded and frowned upon in Demmin/MV/Germany, we make these activities known to a much larger degree than the activities themselves, which were set up for the sole purpose of becoming known, have achieved. I have no good feeling about this, the far right is used to being neglected, and bad press might well be good press for them.

The second, related concern is that even if consensus should emerge that the 8 May rallies should be mentioned, how are we going to source it? If we use the youtube clips, we effectively promote and spread the clips' view and I strongly object to that. Sourcing it to mvregio then? After reading the criticism by ver.di I hesitate to further promote that site, too, though it already is used twice in en.wikipedia [27]. If we use the pop music radio station as a reference, we ridicule ourselves.

The only way out of this dilemma, as I see it, is to either find more sources (which I have failed to achieve) or declare the sourcing insufficient and leave the line out. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The criticism you mentioned is being sourced to a trade union website as far as I can see. Not a very reliable source in itself I would say.Has there been any court ruling that sentenced MVregio or its staff?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The exploitation of this topic by Pomerannian far right and neonazis needs to be covered. There is no doubt about it.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

If we can’t reach a consensus here on the talk page then we should take the matter to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard and get the broader community involved.

In my opinion, Skapperod has done a good job on this article, a tragedy known only in the German speaking world is now presented in English on Wikipedia. We must thank Skapperod for a this work. Skapperod mentions in the article the post war suppression of these events in the GDR. I believe we should not suppress mention of the current campaign by neo-Nazis to exploit these events for political purposes in modern day Germany. Also making note of the attempts by the German government to prevent neo-Nazi activity in Demmin will present Germany in a favorable light for foreign readers. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree. This article is very interesting and well written. I had no idea there were mass suicides of this kind. If they are being exploited by the far-right that should be in the article, but you will need to cite coverage by reliable sources. There seem to be a paucity of sources on that. As an American I am surprised. Doesn't that part of Germany have newspapers? Don't they cover the news? Figureofnine (talk) 15:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The local press did make brief mention of the demo and the attempt of the local government to ban it. The courts shot down the ban based on a legal technicality. Most people of Demmin despise these neo-Nazi outsiders who converge on the town in May to exploit the tragedy. Just two days ago the local Demmin newspaper reported that the town government is restoring the Jewish cemetery vandalized by the Nazis.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Then you can certainly use the local newspapers as sources.Figureofnine (talk) 15:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

@woogie: "The local press did make brief mention" - would you mind linking/naming the source? Skäpperöd (talk) 16:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The local press quotes a local CDU official as condeming the Neo-Nazi march [28] If you have a problem with the source we can take this matter to a higher level at Wikipedia ( I can read German too)--Woogie10w (talk) 16:50, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

That is the mvregio post we already have in the list, and not local press. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

This is an article by regional news media though.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It's a website, not the web presence of some press. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Still regional news media though.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:11, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Armin Jäger a represenative in the local parliment is the person quoted in the article , his credentials are impecable, he definitly can and will be cited in this case. Here is his resume [29]--Woogie10w (talk) 17:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I question the reliability of the source though. If Jäger's statement had been published in a blog we'd not include it either. This mvregio site is controversial as has been said above and if you want to use it as a source, please consult the RS Noticeboard before. De728631 (talk) 17:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Here is the actual statement by Dr. Armin Jäger posted on the CDU website in MVP- This is a reliable source that clearly links exploitation of the Demmin tradgey by the radical right

[30]

Go to page 15 -02. Mai 2006 Dr. Armin Jäger: Erinnerung an Gräueltaten bei Kriegsende nicht den Rechtsextremisten überlassen

--Woogie10w (talk) 18:31, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

http://www.cdu-fraktion.de/Presse-Singleansicht.pressesingle.0.html?&cHash=84ab82464f&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=2549 This is the statement by Jäger you're referring to. He does indeed mention an attempt by NPD to exploit the matters of May 1945 in Demmin for their far-right agenda and says a discussion about the atrocities by the Red Army must not be left to the extreme right. But the question still remains: is this notable enough to be included in the article? Here's a single mainstream politician doing his business — but what I miss is any broader media coverage. Until getting involved in this discussion I had never heard of the Demmin suicides before and I've been living in MV for a year now. As Figureofnine said, the coverage is simply insufficient. De728631 (talk) 20:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

That is your opinion, just because you never heard of the Demmin suicides before is not at all relevant. The report by the MVP Interior Ministry cited above is relevant. The report clearly draws a link between the threat of the radical right in MVP and the neo-Nazi demonstration on 9 May 2009. The Interior Ministry report points out that the neo-Nazis are seeking to exploit the tragedy of May 1945 for their own ends. This report by Lorenz Caffier is a reliable source for use on Wikipedia. The Interior Minister Lorenz Caffier is currently seeking to ban the NDP in MVP. Dr. Armin Jäger is leading and well respected political figure in MVP, his remarks cited above at the CDU wedsite directly condemn the exploitation of the tragedy of May 1945 by MVP neo-Nazis. These remarks by Dr. Armin Jäger are also a reliable source for use on Wikipedia.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:22, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

All we need to say is “In modern day Demmin local Neo-Nazis are attempting to turn these events into a political issue. The vast majority of Germans reject this propaganda and the local authorities are seeking a ban on Neo-Nazi demonstrations that exploit the tragedy of May 1945.” Two reliable sources cited above will back this up. Can we agree on this as a solution? --Woogie10w (talk) 22:43, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Which two sources do you have in mind? Skäpperöd (talk) 09:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

1-The 2009 report by the MVP Interior Ministry

2-The statement by Dr. Armin Jäger on the CDU Website

The two reliable sources cited above will back this up. Can we agree on this as a solution?--Woogie10w (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I still think you are interpreting far too much weight into the ministry report, it doesn't even mention the suicides of Demmin but speaks of 8 May 1945 in general. And the reason for their attempt on banning the NPD is not Demmin in particular. I've said that repeatedly in this discussion and I still oppose the introduction of the Neo-Nazi controversy to the article. Not because it doesn't exist but because we lack sufficient sources to establish how this is more than a marginal note in political every-day life. And how are you going to proof that the vast majority of Germans is against the exploitation by Neo-nazis? The vast majority of Germans has not ever heard about the events of Demmin. That said, I won't argue any longer about it and will leave this part of the discussion to others. De728631 (talk) 15:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

The suicides started among Nazis in Demmin before Red Army entered the town-Jewish survivor was witness to that.

Plötzlich ganz allein, schließt sich Helga einer Truppe versprengter Wehrmachtssoldaten an. Nach acht Tagen Marsch kommen sie bis zur Oder. Im vorpommerschen Demmin erbarmt sich ausgerechnet die Frau des örtlichen Obernazis der jungen Frau und nimmt Helga auf - ohne zu wissen, dass deren Vater Jude war. Als die Russen vor den Toren der Stadt stehen, begeht das Nazi-Ehepaar Selbstmord, sie ertränken sich im Fluss. Helga kommt bei Nachbarn unter und erlebt hier das Kriegsende. [31]

As far as I can tell using my Geramn the statement says that a Nazi pair committed suicide as Red Army stood opposite the gates of the city. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you should write your own article "Suicides in Demmin in 1945", without the term "mass" in the page name. De728631 (talk) 13:11, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we should make article out of every suicide in Demmin, nevertheless this shows that theory that they happened after Red Army entered the city is incorrect.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

If the memory of this lady is correct, it confirms that two people drowned themselves already before the atrocities and the following mass suicide started. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:24, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

This article is about suicides though in Demmin, not about Red Army and its behaviour. And it is clear that suicides started to happen already before Red Army entered the city.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

How often do you need to read the word MASS suicides in connection with this article? This article is not about arbitrary suicides but it is about a mass suicide event or a mass psychosis as one of your sources called it. And all other sources have shown that this mass event set in AFTER the arrival of the Soviets. Period. De728631 (talk) 20:57, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

And this source shows that suicides happened before entry of the Soviets. As others mentioned this topic is poorly researched and all available data must be presented. While some media claims have been made, it is now obvious that we need to present several sources, I see no reason for rejecting this one.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

My general understanding is that there were many suicides in Germany prior to the actual arrival of the Red Army. This does not alter the thrust of the article. Figureofnine (talk) 18:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely, but I was inclined to include the evnt in the background section anyway but wanted to research this a bit further, since the language used in the taz (especially "Obernazi") is ambiguous. I thereby found a contradicting source and thus do not want to include it in the article anymore. The source is Lorenz L: "Viele Zufälle begleiten mein Leben." Geburtstagsbesuch bei der Berliner Fotografin Helga Simon, in: Jüdische Zeitung 03/2008. It reads:

Quote: "Helga schlug sich alleine bis in ein Flüchtlingslager bei Demin [sic!] durch. Einige Monate konnte sie bei der Verwalterin und deren Mann unterkommen, bis «die Russen» auch vor Demin [sic!] standen und das Paar sich in einem nahe gelegen Fluss ertränkte."

Translation: "Helga, on her own, made it to a refugee camp near Demin. For several months she was sheltered by the (female) administrator and her husband, until "the Russians" stood at Demin and the couple drowned themselves in a nearby river."

It is out of question from the biographies presented in both articles that the same Helga Simon is covered by the taz and Jüdische Zeitung. It is however not certain from these sources what exactly has happened in Demmin (taz) or near Demin (JZ) with respect to suicides in 1945. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It does however note clearly that suicides happened well before entry of Red Army. And since you agree that is true, I see no reason not to mention this in the background. Including this source which after can be explained.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The two sources both mention in passing that a couple drowned themselves somewhere upon the aproach of the Red Army. They disagree about who the couple was, and they disagree on where this happened. Even if we assume that Demin = Demmin (could be a typo, albeit twice, or an old spelling variant), then we have "in" Demmin vs "near" Demmin. And it was not part of the mass suicide anyway. Skäpperöd (talk) 14:25, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, that's purely your personal confusion regarding the sources. To me the sources are rather clear, plus it's quite standard to mention sources and what they describe if they have different views. However, they aren't really so contradicting as your interpretation makes them to be. Also I fail to see why this suicide is not be counted among other suicides?. Oh and I just checked the source-it seems your translation wasn't that perfect:Helga schlug sich alleine bis in ein Flüchtlingslager bei Demin durch. Einige Monate konnte sie bei der Verwalterin und deren Mann unterkommen, bis «die Russen» auch vor Demin standen und das Paar sich in einem nahe gelegen Fluss ertränkte. This sentence doesn't contradict in German that she was in Demmin, since it gives here refugee by the pair, after arrival in camp, so this happened afterwards.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I keep repeating ad infinitum that individual suicides that may well have happened before the arrival of the Red Army cannot be included to the article because we still don't have any source stating that such pre-occupation suicides occured in great numbers in Demmin. A handfull of people killing themselves is not relevant to an article about a mass suicide. If you can provide reliable sources that directly talk about a massive surge of suicides before the arrival of the Soviets in Demmin, then that is related to the article. Anything else is POV pushing. De728631 (talk) 17:24, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Please no WP:OR--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Where is that OR? I was asking for sources to back your point. De728631 (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Chronology in the lead incorrect

The source from NDR gives different chronology [32] As far as I could read the chronology was different than the the one in the lead now. The bridges were blown up after Soviet messengers were shot at. Currently the lead indicates that they were blown up before arrival of the Soviet army. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't intend the lead to be strictly chronological, since it is all detailed in the article body, I was just summarizing the events prior to the mass suicide. But since it turns out that only one sentence needed to be moved to have it chronologically, I did so now. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Good. We still need to include suicides before arrival of Soviet Army in the town, Nazi propaganda influence and death of Adolf Hitler though.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

"These events, along with the fear of atrocities stirred up by the Nazi propaganda before, caused a mass panic among the population." It's already in the article. De728631 (talk) 17:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)