Talk:Maryland/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Tobacco

This article manages not to mention tobacco once :(

What did you have in mind? Jacob1207 00:11, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Tobacco is now mentioned in " Economy - Agriculture". We could say a lot more about it, but there is also a hyperlink added to a good separate article. Think that's enough? JN, Dec 12. 2004

Topographic map

Is there any consideration to including a topographic map of maryland such as the one produced by the National Geophysical Data Center (Government agency)? There is an example map for Virginia

no info whatso ever:(

Little Known Fact

do we really need that fact about Maryland being bigger than Lesotho? There are a lot of countries smaller than states.

Maryland 'wasp-waist'?

I can't find a single reference to the narrow part of Maryland around the town of Hancock being called the 'wasp-waist.' Every site I've found on Google is just a mirror/copy of the text founf here. Until some independent verification can be foudn to support these label, then the wasp-waist refernce should be removed.

Sdrawkcab 11:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)sdrawkcab

The term "wasp waist" is a common term, which is found in ten different dictionaries, meaning a very slender waist.

GraemeMcRae 17:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The problem isn't with 'wasp-waist' as a geunine word, rather it is using it here in "Maryland wasp-waist" as if that is the name for that geographical feature. I can't find another site that calls that particular part of Maryland the 'Maryland wasp-waist.' While I agree it's as good a term as any, it is not in gneral usage as say the Inland Empire or the Southwick Jog. If you can find a genuine reference then I'd be happy to see it used, but at the moment it looks as if someone is just trying the christen the geo. feature in the hope of having it used more widely. Sdrawkcab 21:15, 19 October 2005 (UTC)sdrawkcab

Pronunciation

I've added an IPA transcriotion of the name (please correct it as you see fit) as Maryland is probably the most mispronounced state name, more so than Arkansas. For example, the BBC is notably negligent, pronouncing it "Mary-land" (rhymes with "hairy sand") at least three quarters of the time. (And no, this is not the "British pronunciation.")

Perhaps we should also mention the pronunciation in a less technical manner, though Wikipedia:Manual of Style (pronunciation) discourages phonetic transcriptions such as MAR-uh-lund; and Maryland, pronounced correctly, doesn't rhyme with anything.

A recording of the name would be good. ProhibitOnions 10:06, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Marylanders needed!

I need some Marylanders who've been to Great Falls to look over these articles and help expand them. Many of them are little more than stubs:

• Chesapeake and Ohio Canal National Historical Park
• Olmsted Island
• Bear Island
• Great Falls of the Potomac River
• Billy Goat Trail

I'm a Marylander myself but I don't know everything! Thanks for the help! --Cyde Weys 06:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Reverts

I laugh at how the blindly reverting, POV, biased, non-following of Wikipedia policy types revert pages complete with the typos they added to the article originally. No thought whatsoever is being put into what they say. WillC 03:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Second largest

The article claims

• that Columbia, Maryland, "were it incorporated, it would be Maryland's 2nd largest city"
• that Silver Spring, Maryland is the "2nd largest "place" (population-wise) in Maryland"

Can we make up our minds? If either of these claims were put to the test, both areas would shrink considerably; the post office assigns a large swath of eastern Montgomery County to Silver Spring without any compelling geographical justification, and contrariwise one could consider Columbia to consist only of that territory to which the Columbia Association covenants apply (thus excluding, for example, Allview). Personally I am inclined simply to remove these claims. Mangoe 16:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It's hard to compare the two in a meaningful way. Columbia is a fairly well-defined entity: it's a planned community, and it's a good distance away from any major cities. Silver Spring has its own downtown, but that's the only spot where "Silver Spring" is distinguishable from the rest of the sprawl that surrounds Washington, DC. There are other areas that are "Silver Spring" only in the sense that they have "Silver Spring" in their addresses. Isomorphic 05:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ridgely as an important town?

I don't think that the small eastern shore town of Ridgely is notable enough to be considered an important city/town of Maryland. According to the 2000 census, the population was only 1,352. The line accompanying the blurb about Ridgely in the Maryland article: "important nation-wide fulfillment center hub for cereal box promotions and other contests; additionally enjoys widest main street in the state" doesn't include anything of any particular interest that would justify being included in the important cities/towns section. In addition, I cannot find any mention of the cereal box promotions anywhere on google(possible original research). A google of "ridgely maryland" produces similar results as one would find with any small town. The town of New Market, Maryland, for example, bills itself as "the antiques capital of maryland", but it is certainly not to be considered an important town in maryland. I have removed references to ridgely on the main page. Ravensfan5252 18:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Then most of the other regional ones on the list also have to go....I either put Ridgely back or else Cumberland, Ellicott City, Germantown, Towson, and Waldorf can go too. Perhaps you have just not heard of Ridgely and its commercial importance. WillC 23:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think being home to a single large corporation is enough to be notable, dozens of other towns could claim the same thing and we'd end up listing every Baltimore and DC suburb. Being the commercial center of a region is. Cumberland and Towson are both listed as central cities of their respective metropolitan areas by the Census Bureau. Waldorf is the largest city in it's region. Ellicott City and Germantown could probably go though.Kmusser 13:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ellicott City is historically important. Germantown? Eh, either way. Ridgely comes off as more of a trivia point. Mangoe 13:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ellicott City really ought to be in the history section rather than important cities, that the history section stops in 1867 is a different problem altogether. Kmusser 14:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Please help out here.

Talk:Province_of_Maryland Hasbro 18:36, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone else know what to do in Maryland? Is it such a boring state?

Piney_Point,_Maryland

Piney_Point,_Maryland

Piney_Point_Village,_Texas

Hopiakuta 15:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Highway sign

I lived in maryland for 17 years and I never saw a sign that looked like that. They're white, yes, but they're not that shape and they dont say MARYLAND --froth^{T C} 19:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The ones on the green guide signs don't say "MARYLAND" on them, but the ones that stand on their own on the side of the road do (the ones telling you which route you're on). As for the shape, I'm not sure what you mean, that's the shape I have always seen Maryland state highway signs in, also check out the official specification for the signs.-Jeff ^(talk) 18:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the sign currently shown is correct as per the standalone black-on-white signs. However, those same signs without "Maryland" are used upon white-on-green directional signs. --Thisisbossi 05:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll on intro

There apparently is some disagreement as to what the intro paragraph to this article should look like.

The original intro read as follows:

Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]), is a Mid-Atlantic state located on the East Coast of the United States and is classified by the U.S. Census Bureau as a South-Atlantic state. It was the seventh state to ratify the United States Constitution, and is nicknamed the Old Line State and the Free State. Its history as a border state has led it to exhibit characteristics of both the Northern and Southern regions of the United States.

The new intro (twice replaced by User:Gardez Bien to the present form) reads as follows:

Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]) is the owner of the land donated to create the United States Capital, Washington, D.C.. The State of Maryland has a very lucrative business climate. In particular Maryland is very well endowed in the Life Sciences. Maryland is the epicenter for Biotechnology in the Mid-Atlantic Region. As of 2005 it is the second wealthiest state in the nation. The State of Maryland is considered a Mid-Atlantic state located on the East Coast of the United States and is classified by the U.S. Census Bureau as a South-Atlantic state. It was the seventh state to ratify the United States Constitution, and is nicknamed the Old Line State and the Free State. Its history as a border state has led it to exhibit characteristics of both the Northern and Southern regions of the United States.

To avoid a revert war, please cast your vote as to which you would prefer (original or new).

Original: The intro should reflect what a reader unfamiliar with the state will want to see. The fact that part of Maryland became the District of Columbia is by no means the most important thing about the state. Much of this information is useful but doesn't belong in the opening, especially the POV issues and citeless statistics. Also, please see this user's recent contributions, as he's been editing at least two other articles to include the DC-sourcing fact in their introductions (though several have been reverted) Jkatzen 05:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Original: Gardez Bien's edits are not constructive or competent, and have no sense of the appropriate weight to give to information. Postdlf 14:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Original: I just stumbled across the article by chance and my first thought was 'Wow, what a bad intro'. The fact that Maryland is a US state should be more important than the fact that the DC is on former Maryland territory and therefore put first. Also, I consider the original intro to be much more elegant and concise. Blur4760 15:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Original: To line up better with the other state articles. I personally think Minnesota's intro is really good. -Ravedave ^{(help name my baby)} 15:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Original: I attempted a compromise a few days ago, not deleting the DC l;and stuff, but moving it into Maryland History, where I believe it fits better, but it was reverted right back to how it was. Every other U.S. state article starts with a description of the state, population, entry to the union, basic stuff! This article needs to reflect the standards that all of the other state articles have!

-Strongbad1982 ^{10:54, 25 October 2006 (MST)}

Original: The land grant to form Washington DC should be listed in the History section. Also, the second paragraph needs to be DELETED COMPLETELY. The statement "Maryland has the sole distinction amongst states as the donor of the land holding the United States capital, Washington, D.C." is blatantly false. BOTH Maryland and Virginia granted land to form the new capital in 1790. It wasn't until 1847 that the capital city was changed and the Virginia part of the grant was given back to Virginia to end up as Arlington. The further claim that "There has been recent talk of giving the land back to Maryland because of a push for D.C. voting rights." is also spurious. The reference is a link to an article regarding the DC Voting Rights Act, not to a consideration of re-incorporating DC back into MD. Having lived in humid, subtropical :) MD & Northern VA for 31 of 42 years, I don't recall the topic ever being one that had gained enough support to be newsworthy. BBODO 18:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

History

"This proved a problem, because the northern boundary would put Philadelphia, the major city in Pennsylvania, within Maryland." This is not what proved a problem. What proved a problem is that Penn insisted on getting access to the Chesapeake, and wouldn't concede the boundary set out in the Calvert charter. That New Castle was listed in Penn's charter only confused the issue to Penn's advantage; that city was farther south than was marked, and was only included to preserve the York territory claim, not to grant Penn more land. If Philly was established when Penn was given the charter (~1682), then it was "uninhabited" land as far as concerns the language in Calvert's charter (~1632). Smallvoices 21:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Edits by Gardez Bien

Just as discussion has been opened on the pages for Montgomery and Prince George's Counties, this is yet another discussion for the edits by Gardez Bien. I agreed with Gardez Bien's information provided via his earlier edits, but completely disagree with Gardez Bien's complete reversion of my edit on 27 November 2006. The reasoning provided for the complete reversion:

• "Intro should not be all about Geography but unique"

My version was hardly all about geography: it had a sentence touching upon its Civil War history as well as some information on its population and economy.

• "Important highlights of states past present and future"

Gardez Bien's reversion does not provide any additional information regarding the future and picks and chooses among traits that I do not personally find to be all-that important as far as Maryland goes. I would sooner highlight Maryland's federal industries rather than its life science industries.

• "Some info was totally irreleant."

The information I had provided was the exact same information that was previously in the article -- I did not add anything new and in fact preserved all of what was initially provided. My post on Gardez Bien's talk page -- prior to his reversion -- indicated to open discussion before another reversion (there have been revert wars beginning on the two County pages); but he did not do so. Therefore I am reverting his edit again until proper reasoning can be provided and/or consensus is reached on this issue. My reversion will at last address the spelling I errors that I had fixed, which Gardez Bien's reversion brought back (if you're going to revert, at least fix your errors!). I invite other users to please lend their viewpoints. --Thisisbossi 11:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm getting the sense of a double standard for Maryland here. Why is Maryland the focus of this brigade when other state intros are equivalent? I’ve avoided posting in these discussions because it seems you guys are reluctant to seeing the truth and now I have to write a book to get my point across. Even still you will believe what you want to because of personal preference or you don’t “feel it belongs”. Most of all I’m sure you could care less about the state itself otherwise you wouldn’t object. But you want an answer so here it is...

If you think the intro to the Maryland page needs a rework then you have your work cut out for you because you’re going to have to change just about every other state. Case in point, this is the last paragraph from the Commonwealth of Virginia intro,

"Virginia is known as the "Mother of Presidents", because it is the birthplace of eight U.S. presidents (George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler, Zachary Taylor, and Woodrow Wilson), more than any other state. Most of the United States' early presidents were from the state. Virginia has also been known as the "Mother of States", because portions of the original Colony subsequently became Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois, and West Virginia as well as some portions of Ohio."

How is that anymore relevant than proclaiming "Maryland donated the land for Washington, D.C."? Doesn't talk about presidents from decades past and ceding portions of land belong in the History section according to you?

Not convinced? Here’s part of the intro from the State of Wisconsin, this should put your economic fears to rest,

Wisconsin's rural economy was originally based farming (especially dairy), mining, and lumbering. In the 20th century tourism became important, and many people living on former farms commuted to jobs elsewhere. Large-scale industrialization began in the late 19th century in the southeast of the state, with the city of Milwaukee as its major center. In recent decades, service industries, especially medicine and education, have become dominant. Wisconsin's landscape, largely shaped by the Wisconsin glaciation of the last Ice Age, makes the state popular for both tourism and many forms of outdoor recreation.

In previous version they were proclaiming fur trade!!! But it's a sin to proclaim the life sciences which has become the foremost important industry in Maryland right now?

Didn’t get the message? Try the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,

During the 19th century, Massachusetts transformed itself from a mainly agricultural economy to a manufacturing one, making use of its many rivers for power to operate factories for shoes, furniture, and clothing. Its economy declined in the early twentieth century when industry moved south in search of cheaper labor. A revitalization came in the 1970s when, nourished by the graduates of the area's many elite institutions of higher education, the Boston suburbs (particularly those around Route 128) became home to dozens of high-technology companies. Massachusetts' colleges and universities, as well as its technology sectors, continue to thrive.

The state is also considered a haven for progressive, liberal thought and often sends political candidates to the national scene, however, the four most recent presidential aspirants, Ted Kennedy, Michael Dukakis, Paul Tsongas, and John Kerry, were all unsuccessful. . Massachusetts was the home state of US Presidents John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Calvin Coolidge, and John F. Kennedy, and the birth state of George H. W. Bush.

As of 2006, Massachusetts is the only state in the union to legalize marriage of gay and lesbian couples.

Must I continue? It should be clear by now.

Thisisbossi said

• My version was hardly all about geography: it had a sentence touching upon its Civil War history as well as some information on its population and economy.

This is what you left posted in the intro

"Maryland (IPA: [ˈmæ.ɹɪ.lənd]), nicknamed the Old Line State and the Free State, is located along the East Coast of the US. Historically a border state, it exhibits characteristics of both the Northern and Southern regions of the United States. Consequently, it can be considered both a Mid-Atlantic state and a South-Atlantic state.

Maryland comprises a mountainous western panhandle, a fertile coastal plain, and a central region. Chesapeake Bay is largely within the confines of the state. The broad central region includes a stretch of the eastern Megalopolis: an entirely metropolitan region stretching from Northern Virginia to Massachusetts that contains over 50 million people."

Thisisbossi version above is entirely about Geography, which sould go in the Geography section. The portion about Maryland being part of a Megalopolis is totally irrelevant. It is neither important nor does it define anything unique about the state. Civil war info belongs in the history section as well. Furthermore you would have to include the text in the intro of every state that is part of the Megalopolis. Why would you put it in with only Maryland?

Thisisbossi said

• Gardez Bien's reversion does not provide any additional information regarding the future and picks and chooses among traits that I do not personally find to be all-that important as far as Maryland goes. I would sooner highlight Maryland's federal industries rather than its life science industries.

If you feel the Life Sciences Industry in Maryland is extraneous, then no offense but you don't know squat about Maryland. The federal government’s role is confined to the capital region and even then they are not as dependent on the federal government as other parts of the D.C. region. The federal government also has ver over life sciences?

On the other hand, the life sciences stretches across the entire state, no other industry gets such special treatment and incentives. Bio parks, incubators, drug manufacturing plants, stem cell research funds, organizations, institutions, EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE LIFE SCIENCES INDUSTRY. Right now the Life Sciences is Maryland’s crown jewel industry and they have put more focus on it than any other. It is very much part of Maryland's past, present and FUTURE.

Thisisbossi said

• The information I had provided was the exact same information that was previously in the article -- I did not add anything new and in fact preserved all of what was initially provided. My post on Gardez Bien's talk page -- prior to his reversion -- indicated to open discussion before another reversion (there have been revert wars beginning on the two County pages); but he did not do so. Therefore I am reverting his edit again until proper reasoning can be provided and/or consensus is reached on this issue. My reversion will at last address the spelling I errors that I had fixed, which Gardez Bien's reversion brought back (if you're going to revert, at least fix your errors!).

I found a grammatical error in what you just said, should I help you correct it? Not only that but my revised (by you) paragraph about life sciences (that is so neatly hidden and tucked away in the economy section) doesn't make much sense. What aforementioned "institutions and agencies" are you referring to? I still stand by the first two paragraphs of the intro having irrelevant data at his point especially the part about it being a Megalopolis.

Overall the intro for Maryland has turned weak and geography heavy, the intro should have important highlights that are unique to the state. Donating the land for the Capital of the United States is a fact no other state can claim and very much defines the state and that region. Withoout that fact things would be drastically different. I'm also surprised how many people forget or don't know this fact so because of that alone it is totally relevant in the intro. Any other state in the world would not leave out that kind of information.

Can I ask a question? Why does the paragraph on donating the land bother all of you so much? Please give valid non generalized, impersonal reasons than "I don't like it".

I'm sorry if my info was too factual. If you don't like Maryland's intro get started on changing all 50 states, the District and the territories.

I enjoyed the conversation Gardez Bien 01:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response and for your excellent points -- which is all I had really wanted. I will now leave my hands off this issue and, with the above information for consideration, leave others to modify as they see fit. --Thisisbossi 02:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll pick up the torch here of those who find the complete text about the boundary irritating to be in the main area rather than in the History. There are two other states whose boundaries have changed since Statehood, Virginia (Creation of West Virginia) and Massachusetts (Creation of Maine). Neither mentions those changes in their opening paragraph. Even if a mention of the geographic change is appropriate, mentions of the current political structure of DC such as home rule are not. Now the changes were originally made by Gardez Bien and have been restored by SimpleDays, whose histories on Wikipedia don't seem to overlap (I think it is relevant in this discussion as to whether or not they are the same person) Naraht 20:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe Gardez Bien is back at work under the sock-puppet name Simpledays. He's been making the same types of edits to the same articles (Prince Georges, Montgomery, Maryland, and Virginia) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkatzen (talk • contribs) 20:38, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed -- I had noticed the same trend but was giving the user the benefit of the doubt for the time being. I suspect we await a couple more reverts to amass evidence before pursuing the issue at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets. --Thisisbossi 23:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The user(s) have been reported. Feel free to post additional evidence here. --Thisisbossi 12:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I for one agree with Gardez Bien's reasoning. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THE INTRO, especially compared to other states. Did any of you read the rebutle or was it too long for baby brains? Please provide valid reasoning and use examples of other states instead of using personal attacks. Even the sock puppet Thisisbossi agreed with Gardez Bien but continues to attack. Macionis

The consensus based on the straw poll above is unanimous to maintain the intro (sans DC land cession). I understand it's important to you to have this reference in the intro, but you're just not gaining enough support, and more people disagree with you, irrespective of your extensive "rebuttle" (sic). It's just not going to happen. Jkatzen 05:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

New Sports section added to updated Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states format

The Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. states format has been updated to include a new Sports section, that covers collegiate sports, amateur sports, and non-team sports (such as hunting and fishing). Please feel free to add this new heading, and supply information about sports in Maryland. Please see South_carolina#Sports_in_South_Carolina as an example. NorCalHistory 16:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason why the minor league baseball teams are not worth mentioning by name and link? Or better yet, why we can't just transform the whole sports section into a list form that includes all of the professionals sports teams? 208.253.65.243 14:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Median Income Data

The article quotes household median income data from the 2005 American Community Survey, but as far as I can tell, household median income data is only available for three states and DC in the 2005 ACS - Maryland is the second of those three states, but not the nation as a whole. Data from the 2000 census, or a more recent complete data set should be used instead. Gromitjc 21:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Important Places

After spotting what might be the start of an edit war, I decided to intervene with my own viewpoint and see how it flies. I removed what I felt to be lesser notable places, such as places whose claim to fame is being a suburb of Baltimore or being a large city within a geographic portion of Maryland. As far as notability for merely being a large city goes, I opted to keep only the top 3: Baltimore, Gaithersburg/Ocean City, and Rockville. I think I largely left in most stuff that had some seemingly notable place which possesses its own Wikipedia article. Feel free to modify if you wish, but I recommend posting any reasoning here. --Thisisbossi 03:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

My revert was accidental. We were both editing at the same time. When I submitted I got a message that the article had been edited since I began working and that my edits needed to be made in the new version. I made the incorrect assumption that whatever edits someone else had made were to a different section, and simply copy/pasted what I originally had back in.

Regarding Cal Ripken: I have no problem at all with taking him off the list. He was there when I started editing and in fact, I thought about removing him, but figured it didn't matter much so I left it alone.

Regarding large cities: Gaithersburg, Rockville, Frederick and Bowie are all essentially the same size. The difference in population between 2nd largest and 5th largest is a couple thousand people. Such minor differences in population shouldn't be the difference between listing and not listing.

Regarding regional centers: Cumberland, Hagerstown, Frederick and Salisbury are probably the 4 most important cities in the state outside the immediate DC/Baltimore region and ought to be listed one way or another. I don't have a problem w/ taking others out.

Regarding suburbs of Baltimore with no other claim to fame: No problem w/ their removal. Jdmalouff 03:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The only things that really irked me were those Baltimore suburbs. I kind of like the Cal Ripkin reference, though; but I've always been a fan of him so I admit I may be a tad biased. As for largest cities: I was just trying to set some tangible limit so people don't start adding every little city... I envision something like "Barnesville is the 149th largest city in Maryland and an important crossroads of MD 109 and Barnesville Road, which is named after the town of Barnesville. The town contains a completely blank road sign." I agree that places like Hagerstown and Salisbury hold some significance due to their size, but surely we could find some notable historic place or other landmark worth mentioning instead of their geographical-population prominence? --Thisisbossi 03:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's any reason why we have to say Bowie is the 5th largest city. As long as it's mentioned in the list for one reason or another that's good enough. As for the regional centers, I don't understand why geographical-population prominence isn't a good enough reason. Important things happen in those cities and important people come from them precisely because they're hub cities. But if people insist, then I'm sure we can manufacture some contrived reason to include them besides the obvious one that they're big and important. --Jdmalouff 03:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

We need to establish standard criteria for being important places or toss the subheading altogether....it is vanity moreso than anything else. Some notes:

• Cal Ripken no longer lives in Aberdeen...there are hundreds of famous Marylanders - more important than him - from towns all across the state.
• UMBC is in Catonsville.
• Chevy Chase....streetcars...who cares?
• Columbia...there are plenty of planned communities around the country; Greenbelt came first in this state...
• Ellicott City not as important as RR itself....it is not like it grew into a thriving city as a result....its a crossroads now surrounded by housing developments that do not form a cohesive community
• St. Mary's City not actually a town. Been there?
• A festival does not put Westminster on the map...every town in America celebrates something.
• If you list a town just because it has a college, that is redundant because it is already listed on the page. Same for sports.

Perhaps a list by population is enough. If the town is otherwise notable, it should go under history or another relevant category. WillC 22:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point about Cal Ripkin & the numerous other famous Marylanders... I agree it could lead to a slippery slope of many other names. I'm also fine with removing schools, sports, and festivals (i.e. Westminster) unless there is something truly notable to set them apart from other schools and festivals.

Regarding the streetcars in Chevy Chase: I care :) it's something of interest to people interested in or working in the transport industry. Likewise with Ellicott City: regardless of its current sprawling form, its role as a BO RR terminus is very important in the eyes of transport enthusiasts.

St. Mary's is a prominent historical place -- it's one of the few places I had actually heard of in Maryland before I moved here 2 yrs ago.

I wouldn't be too against working these places into the main article, but there is a part of me that likes having the easy-reference listing. I could see government agencies (i.e. Department of... ; and military bases) being easily accommodated elsewhere in the article, if they are not already. Should they be included elsewhere, I'd say feel free to remove them from this list.

I'll edit the article to reflect the above -- of course, feel free to undo or continue my edits. --Thisisbossi 22:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I dare say that transport enthusiasts are a minority population. You prove my point about vanity listings. Also, again, there is NO St. Mary's City. There is only a museum with a couple reconsructed buildings and a college. The "city" has been abandoned for three hundred years! Lastly, I feel that the federal agencies that are listed are due their own subheading. In a straw poll, I am voting for total removal of important places and instead making the list of towns/cities in Maryland page linked right there a place where you all can embellish your town's claim to fame in a line or two. WillC 23:32, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Just as our local anon hops off his soapbox, I'll hop right up on it and say that the transport enthusiasts may or may not be a minority, but they've certainly got a powerful editing record to indicate that they are out there (in particular, the rather abundant listings within the Transport WikiProject and its children). I am unsure of what you were referring to by "vanity listing" -- might you be able to elaborate? If it is with regards to my emphasis on transport: I simply attempt to provide information on what I know best. The great wonder of Wikipedia is that we can provide information interesting to anyone, regardless of how small the minority may be; it's just a matter of trying to keep everything organised.

As for St. Mary's, keep in mind that the section is titled "Important Places" and just happens to consist almost entirely of population centers. Just because St. Mary's is no longer an important city does not necessarily mean that it is any less of a important place.

I do agree with creating a spin-off article with regards to important places. The city information should be relocated to the existing list of cities; other locations (such as St. Mary's, Federal Hill, Antietam) should be in their own article (or is this category enough?); and governmental agencies (including military bases) should be expanded upon elsewhere in the main article. --Thisisbossi 02:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I readded Frederick to the list of important places in the state of Maryland. It seems as if this section has caused much debate, but I'm not sure why Frederick was removed.

• Frederick population = 57,907
• Gaithersburg population = 57,698
• Rockville population = 57,402

Please do not keep removing Frederick from the list of important places. Wikipedia strives to be as accurate as possible, and when listing Gaithersburg and Rockville as the second and third most populous cities in the state while excluding Frederick, inaccuracies are present.Jason Smith 14:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

As I've been trying to emphasise, my initial edit was intended to cut out all "notable by population only" cities other than the top 3. I picked "top 3" completely arbitrarily and invited others to undo or expand upon my edits. However, I didn't do any fact-checking to actually see if those top 3 were indeed the true top 3. I am a bit surprised that Rockville/Gaithersburg are smaller than Frederick; but I guess that's just because I think of both Rockville and Gaithersburg as one single city (they pretty much are) when in fact they each actually have a pretty small land area. Anyways, as previously mentioned, I'd ideally like to reduce the emphasis on population as making a place notable. Could you provide some of the key landmarks/attractions that make Frederick truly distinct? --Thisisbossi 23:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I know I might not be in the MD WikiProject, but I noticed something that might just solve this entire dilemma: why even include a "Important Places" section at all? I'm on the NJ WikiProject and we have only the top cities by population listed. I know it's probably a matter of civic pride that most of these edit wars are happening, but wouldn't a generic "Top Cities by Population" work as well? This would not only make people from cities that are "less important" stop trying to fudge with everything, but also make it purely objective. I mean, if I wanted to, I could fight with my project to try to get Penns Grove on the NJ site because it was once "the caviar capital of the world" (in the early 1900's), so that could be considered important. However, since our page has an objective list, I'm not even going to touch the subject there. Just an outsider's perspective....EaglesFanInTampa (formerly Jimbo) 16:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's try a different POV here. Try notability as a criteria. Populations flux on a daily basis, so the mere published snapshot (delayed by some bureacracy) of a ranking is not really applicable. Neither does physical size designate an important place (if so, Nevada would be notable for size and not for population!). Also, as cities merge into a megapolis, it is mostly just a larger tax base. (e.g. Manhattan is physically limited in size, but not in population.)

Now look at the references listed: List of cities in Maryland and List of census-designated places in Maryland and Maryland locations by per capita income These and the individual WikiLinx provide much more information than we can reasonably place in this list. How can we pare down the amount of redundant information in this section?

Lmcelhiney 18:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Cumberland

I readded Cumberland to the list. Cumberland is the largest city for about 70 miles in any direction( for reference Hagerstown, the closest city of similar size to Cumberland, is almost as close to Baltimore as it is to Cumberland.) As such, Cumberland serves as the cultural, economic, political, and media center for a very large geographic portion of the state and has done so since Maryland was founded. --199.248.201.253 13:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to remove any of the larger cities such as Cumberland, but is there something notable in Cumberland other than its geographic prominence? --Thisisbossi 22:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Besides Geographical prominance, Cumberland has a long and important history within the state. Cumberland was terminus of the C&O canal, a major transportation hub for numerous railroads on their expansion towards the midwest, and the starting point for the National Road. Cumberland also was an industrial powerhouse with some of the largest steel, coal, glass, tire, and many other industries in the country. Due to these factors Cumberland was the second largest city in Maryland when places like Frederick, Rockville, and Gaithersburg were small sleepy cow-towns.

This history has been transformed into some very unique attractions today including Canal Place at the terminus of the C&O Canal which is a National Park and The Western Maryland Scenic Railroad, the only operating steam railroad in the state. Other noteworthy places in Cumberland include the building G. Washington used as his headquarters during the Whiskey Rebellion, 18th century tunnels under the site of Ft. Cumberland, and portions of the original Braddock's road.

While, Cumberland's population, industry and national prominance have declined, its long important history and its current position as the economic, social, and media center for large areas in Maryland and West Virginia justify its inclusion. --199.248.201.253 13:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

No one is arguing Cumberland should go, Mr. Chamber of Commerce! But I do take offense at using "cowtown" as a critical term...see wikipedia warning on weasel words. WillC 15:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Hehehe, maybe I should apply for a job at the Chamber? No offense meant with "cow-town", if you like I can delete it from my comment. --199.248.201.253 15:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It's also factually incorrect. As this table of the 100 largest cities in America at the time of every census since 1790 shows, Frederick was one of the 50 largest cities in the whole country as early as 1820, a distinction Cumberland has never achieved. --Jdmalouff 19:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is some data to back up my point. Since you want to compare Frederick and Cumberland, we will use them.

Cumberland 1850 - 6,073 1900 - 12,720 1940 - 39,483

Frederick 1850 - 6,028 1900 - 9,720 1940 - 15,802

Before the railroad arrived in 1848, Frederick would probably have been larger than Cumberland. After 1940, Cumberland's population began to decline and was probably passed by Frederick around 1970 or 1980 (I will find data on this particular questions if anyone is interested). Jdmalouff, your link didn't work, and even if it did, I don't know what ordinally ranking the US cities in the 1820s would prove when what we are comparing is the direct population figures between Cumberland and cities like Frederick, Gaithersburg and Rockville. My point again was that Cumberland had large population growth 1850-1950 and was(frequently swapping places with Hagerstown) the second or third largest city in the state.

My data is from the 1950 census from census.gov. Hopefully this link will take you there http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/37779128v2p20ch2.pdf --199.248.201.253 20:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

My link works now, and also comes from census.gov. It proves that Frederick was what passed for a large city years before Cumberland, which counters your claims about the historical importance of Cumberland relative to Frederick. But this arguement is silly. I will not engage in a municipal pride pissing contest. Consider this my last entry on the subject of Cumberland's greatness. Jdmalouff 21:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There is room for both cities in this section. I will get off of my soapbox :) --199.248.201.253(from a different computer, 4.248.52.32)

All this chit-chat about cow-towns and whatnot (I love that term and am definitely going to use it in any non-Wikipedic chance I get), but yet still no edits to give Cumberland a true distinction other than being a larger town? Be bold, 199.248.201.253, and while you're at it -- feel free to register an account! :) Add in whatever you like to the main article and I'm sure one of us will be along to remove anything that seems extraneous or cluttering; but surely there will be something that will stick! --Thisisbossi 02:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright you talked me into it. I am no longer 199.248.201.253, but now... --Lasersnake 13:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hoorah! Welcome aboard. --Thisisbossi 23:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

I attempted to correct this along with the references to eskimos, 1500 degree highest temp and marylandish sheep but my changes were rejected as vandalism.Bawlmer 18:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that. It was a case of mistaken identity. Your edits were good. -- Gogo Dodo 18:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot of information in the article about gnomes. I am pretty sure gnomes are not the majority population in Maryland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.104.30.2 (talk)

It's been removed. -- Gogo Dodo 18:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The Governor is "COLIN DAVID SWEENEY?" --not sure how to sign this. I just noticed the vandalism and thought it should be pointed out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.135.186.71 (talk) 20:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

The vandalism has since been repaired. Feel free to be bold and repair such vandalism yourself! :) --Thisisbossi 03:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I got a message from JuJubu saying not to vandalize the Maryland section. I changed "Maryland is a Mid-Atlantic State" to "Maryland is a Southern State." How is this vandalizing? It isn't false information. It's what I believe true and what looks like many others consider to be true. Why can't it be left at "Maryland is a Southern/Mid-Atlantic state" at least? Just because I belive it is different and I change it why am I considered to be vandalizing? I'm not trying to add false information. I'm adding what I belive to be correct. USMarineCorps1989.

USMarine, there has been an ongoing dispute for several months about whether MD should be catagorized as a Southern, Northern, or Mid-Atlantic State. There have been literally dozens if not more changes, reverts, etc. over this issue. Sorry if you walked in late on this dispute and were pegged as a vandal. Please feel free to express your point of view on the special talk page Thisisbossi has created for this topic. Hopefully we can present evidence there and reach an acceptable consensus on this issue.
Lasersnake 17:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Important Places

It seems the conversation about this section died out a few months ago, with little resolution. I'd like to pick up on the New Jersey idea and suggest that we change the section title from "Important Places" to "Major Cities and Towns" with population guidelines similar to what New Jersey has, with thorough reference under "see also" to all the various lists of places in Maryland. Keeping the section as "Important Places" is going to create endless opportunity for edit wars and the addition of minor locations (hey, my house is an important place - I'll put my house on here!), and if we have a short blurb about every place in Maryland with any historical/geographical/transportation/economic importance, it'll take up half the article. Thoughts? Geraldk 19:05, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Bay Bridge

what if i think the statement about the bridge being credited for economically developing the easrern shore is pov and inaccurate? i made the edit about it ruining delmarva in good faith; we should at least say both. WillC 21:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Saying two unsourced POV statements on two sides of an issue does not make them any less POV. Both statements have been removed for neutrality's sake. Geraldk 11:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Culture

Is Maryland entirely devoid of culture? I mean, even Rhode Island has a 'culture' section! --Xiaphias (talk) 04:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Maryland has culture, despite this article's lack of such coverage. Editors who wish to add a 'Culture' section might start by reviewing Culture of Baltimore and Music of Maryland, noting the latter article's 'Maryland culture' category. —Adavidb 04:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Image:Geographic regions of Maryland

The depicted regions don't correspond to any reliable source that I'm aware of (Western - ok, the others are different or original research). Tedickey (talk) 22:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I found these regions on many different sites. I will post all the websites:

http://www.wildernet.com/pages/area.cfm?areaID=MDTR&CU_ID=1
http://www.marylandbb.com/region.php?RegionName=Upper%20Eastern%20Shore
http://www.foreclosurelistingsmd.com/regions/western.html
http://cardin.senate.gov/maryland/region.cfm
http://www.mdisfun.org/planningamarylandvisit/destinationscitiesandtowns/destinations.html

These should all be enough to show the regions... Dgreco (talk) 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I see (it's likely that there's only one source which has been adapted). But the reader, comparing with the regions listed at the bottom of the page, will be confused, since "Central Maryland" in that picture is skewed to the east. All of the conventionally named regions overlap - which is not reflected in this picture. Tedickey (talk) 00:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I can see what you are saying, but when the Maryland State Senate defines the regions I would think that this shows it is widely used throughout the state. There are many more of those regions, but for most instances at least 20 I have seen all show those. Dgreco (talk) 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly - as I noted, it's likely that there is a common source for the category (which is unlikely to be the Senate ;-). Tedickey (talk) 00:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Common Knowledge by any guidelines for research is 3 or more sources. I have shown 5 sources with the ability to add many more, so I stated it as the reason much like any other research. I am open for others opinions, but I think with its commonality it shows that it is widely recognized. Dgreco (talk) 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Uh no - take a look some time at how many pages copy Wikipedia (perhaps half of them credit the source). here for instance is a page which does cite the source of the information. Finding the original reliable source takes more time and thought than a couple of searches with google. Tedickey (talk) 00:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You miss the point clearly---common knowledge is anything that can be found in 3 or more places. You do not need the origin, if it is common knowledge. Thats how it is common knowledge, but like I said let others make points instead of being closed minded and arguing that I am wrong. I know RI's four regions East Bay, West Bay, and South County and Blackstone Valley. No one knows where they originated or have the original source, but it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE so that is all that matters.Dgreco (talk) 7 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I understand the point exactly. You're rather fond of your picture. Here's an equally reliable common knowledge source for you to make a picture of Rhode Island. Obviously you're incorrect about the numkber of regions there, since there are more than four listed. Enjoy. Tedickey (talk) 00:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Another "common knowledge" source for your use in the fixes for the Rhode Island topic. Tedickey (talk) 00:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[here I can show another list of regions, but my point is RI'ers have those 4 as the regions, thats how it is broken down. I posted that and was looking for other advice to see what other people consider the regions. I am not "proud" of my picture, but I tried to add something that I thought might be interesting. Locals would know more than me, I do not know if you live in Maryland, but if you did you could help clear the questions up, if not you are making assumptions just as big as mine. You can delete the image I have no problems, but my point was to add something to the page, that I thought was useful and wanted information to either back it up or rearrange it. Instead you criticize and do not look for a resolution to the possible regions. Dgreco (talk) 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I already pointed to a conventional geography map. Let's not get sidetracked from parallel improvements to RI (ignoring the ones which cite only 4 as the regions, to be consistent with your comments so far). Bye. Tedickey (talk) 09:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

So far, all I'm seeing in review is that the source is the Maryland Tourism agency. For grins, do the same for Rhode Island. Bye. Tedickey (talk) 00:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

By contrast, here is a picture which shows a more conventional geographic set of regions. Tedickey (talk) 00:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The real issue is the internal inconsistancy in the article. The map has Western Maryland with 3 counties. Further down in the text Western Maryland is mentioned as being only 2 counties. If you go to Western Maryland subpage, 4 are listed. So which is it? I contend that only Allegany and Garrett Counties are "really" Western Maryland. Include Washington County if you must, but realistically it is more like Frederick, Carroll or Harford Counties than it is like Allegany and GarrettLasersnake (talk) 14:13, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

News article that might fit here

This might be something to consider for the section Maryland#Flora and fauna:

Associated Press (2008-05-08). "Maryland has 6 of nation's biggest trees by species". The News Journal (delawareonline). Annapolis: Gannett Co. Retrieved 2008-05-09.

--User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

No Indians?

Just a week ago "Gov. Martin O’Malley ... signed into law a bill designating the Friday after Thanksgiving as American Indian Heritage Day, a new state holiday." Cfr. Len Lazarick: Maryland Indian tribes get state holiday, In: The Examiner, 14. Mai 2008. If the author is right Maryland has lost more than 120.000 inhabitants, if only Wikipedia is consulted... --Hans-Jürgen Hübner (talk) 12:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure that I understand. What do you mean by Maryland losing more than 120 inhabitants? If you are saying the population figure is off by 120, that is not much of an error in my opinion. 69.140.152.55 (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

That's 120 thousand (in some locales, a "." acts as a digit grouping symbol). Tedickey (talk) 11:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

mottos

I believe the state has 2 mottos: Fatti maschii, parole femine (translation), and Scuto bonæ voluntatis tuæ coronasti nos (“You have crowned us with the shield of your good will.”) Should this be reflected in the infobox? (There are actually 3 mottos on the great seal of Maryland, but the motto that appears on the obverse side of the seal is never used.) 69.140.152.55 (talk) 03:11, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

For all intents and purposes, the motto is Fatti maschii, parole femine what is on the back I believe comes from the Calverts.