Talk:Mary Gregory

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Requested move 3 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. While "no consensus" on primary topic matters still suggests that a dab page might be the best solution, this is not obvious here either, and User:力 summarized it nicely: "the natural disambiguation is sufficient here". No such user (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

– There are five women listed at the Mary Gregory (disambiguation) page with no indication that the historical renown of the 19th-century and early 20th-century painter of glass lamps and plaques is of such eminent level that it overwhelms the combined notability of the remaining four women, one of whom, Mary Rogers Gregory, was a portrait painter. — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:12, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There are only two entries that use the exact name "Mary Gregory" and thus require disambiguation, namely "Mary Gregory (18th-century actress)" and "Mary Gregory". See this pageview analysis. 99to99 (talk) 08:41, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Such an argument ignores the basic fact that disambiguation page WP:PRIMARYTOPICS are decided on the basis of notability among all the entries, not solely among entries that carry the plain name. As an example, on another "Mary" dab page — Mary Greene — Mary Greene (nun) does not become the default primary topic of the three-name page simply because the other two entries — Mary Becker Greene and Mary Shepard Greene — do not use the exact name "Mary Greene". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:30, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation pages are often poorly written. Anybody can add an entry. They should not be driving the process of selecting a primary topic. "A disambiguation page is not a search index. A link to an article title that merely contains part of the disambiguation page title, or a link that includes the page title in a longer proper name, where there is no significant risk of confusion between them, is considered a partial title match, and should not be included," according to WP:PARTIAL. 99to99 (talk) 00:47, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Middle names or middle initials are not partial matches and the portrait painter Mary Rogers Gregory is considered to be named "Mary Gregory" for purposes of disambiguation.

As for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it is clearly stated that it needs to be "much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term". Dab pages that use "(disambiguation)" in their main title headers, as a result of featuring entries that had been grandfathered as primary topics despite lack of sufficient notability, are being continually nominated for move to "no primary".

One recent example that comes to mind is Talk:Dennis McGuire (canoeist)#Requested move 30 June 2021 in which a two-sentence stub for a sportsman named "Dennis McGuire" was the primary topic over much longer articles for two other men who did not carry the plain name "Dennis McGuire", but were named G. Dennis McGuire and Dennis B. McGuire. Needless to say, the canoeist is no longer primary and the header for the Dennis McGuire (disambiguation) page now simply depicts Dennis McGuire. —Roman Spinner (talk •contribs) 08:10, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where do you get the idea that an article can have one name in its title and another name "for purposes of disambiguation"? The articles are named as they are and have to be disambiguated based on those names. Since you didn't do your own page view analysis, your opinion in this matter is apparently not based on traffic patterns or anything topic specific. These arguments can be made about any topic. They effectively negate the primary topic guideline. Many other reference sites don't use disambiguators at all. I would say that it's a software glitch that we have these ugly parentheticals. 99to99 (talk) 14:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support. No primary topic here. All five people on the list are called Mary Gregory, whether they have middle names or not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:36, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This Mary Gregory is clearly the primary topic based on page views of all referenced on the dab page that have articles. —В²C ☎ 13:32, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support Thanks for the n-gram above, but to my mind it doesn't show this one is clearly the primary topic - some days she is, some she isn't. They are all pretty obscure, with very few views, and disam will be helpful. Johnbod (talk) 14:12, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Look closer. Daily average is 19 for this one. 2 or 0 for the others. If that doesn’t establish clear primary topic, not sure what does. —-В²C ☎ 14:19, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - The right hand side of your graph is distorted by this debate - this, showing all of 2020, is better. Not sure where your average numbers come from anyway. Johnbod (talk) 16:59, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Don’t know what distortions you’re talking about. I don’t see any. As to the averages, look in the Daily Averages column of the table under the graph. —В²C ☎ 13:13, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The page views are so low that it could just be a result of the un-disambiguated name naturally getting higher placement in search results. However, of the other entries, one doesn't even have an article, and two have very different names as the common name. This leaves Mary Rogers Gregory. I think the natural disambiguation is sufficient here. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:08, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.