Talk:Mary Chapin Carpenter

Mary Chapin Carpenter has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: June 13, 2023. (Reviewed version).

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POV?

Just curious about the use of the phrase "highly successful" when the likes of Bob Dylan are merely songwriters and performers. As a European I must confess to never having heard of Ms Carpenter, and was curious how she could be "highly successful" if you see what I mean. LeeG 17:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a European too, and I've been a fan of her for years. Her records has sold extremely well in the US, but well in Europe too. So I don't think that is an unfair characteristic. However, the article needs a lot of work to catch up with those on other artists. I hope someone is willing to work on it. Is there some template we can put on it to make it known that it could use some work? Madman332 15:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add one more comment on the subject: I would refer to someone like Bob Dylan as a legend, icon or superstar. I definitely think "highly successful" is appropriate for MCC.

LeeG, no I don't see what you mean. Surely an artist who has sold something like 15 mill. albums and received several music industry awards is highly successful? In any case, is it not somewhat arrogant to argue that just because you have not heard about someome that person cannot possibly be "highly succesful in his or her field"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.157.224.13 (talk) 04:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Expert" tag

I placed the tag in response to a request on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Country Music that the article be improved.--WilliamThweatt 16:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Warren Zevon / Werewolves of London

Does anybody else think that Mary Chapin Carpenter's "Shut Up and Kiss Me" has a strong resemblance to Warren Zevon's "Werewolves of London"? I think the songs are almost identical. -- Anonymous

I don't know if I've ever made that connection, but it's definitely there. "Werewolves" and "Shut Up" both use a V, IV, I chord progression in the verse. Of course, they are also similar in style (instrument choice, tempo, etcetera). Moreover, each song has a five-syllable title which also serves as a spoken "catch phrase" in the lyrics.

But I don't think this is any big secret... And I can't recall if she's ever cited him, but I suspect Carpenter is probably pretty fond of Zevon's music and might even cite him as an influence. I would also point out that she modifies the chord progression in the chorus to IV, V, I whereas Zevon just plows ahead relentlessly with V, IV, I throughout the whole song. Both approaches sound good to me; in fact, these are both among my favorite songs. And in general, V, IV, I is probably one of the most obvious and common chord progressions out there. I'm sure someone can come up with bunches of songs that use it.

It's really just a simple progression that's good for jamming out, kind of like the 8-bar blues progression, or the I, vi, ii, V progression that you hear in so much early rock. --Beau Wilkinson

(EDIT:Examples of the V-IV-I progression are the Ring Of Fire chorus (1962), Love Me Do chorus (1964), Magic Carpet Ride verse (1969), Maggie Mae verse (1971), Sweet Home Alabama verse (1974), and I Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For chorus (1987 source:http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/rockI-IV-Vprogression.html ).

Photo

Is the other person in the photo notable? If not, it should probably be cropped or replaced with a photo of the subject by herself. Mooveeguy 21:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Overall Changes

I wanted to explain my changes made Oct. 13 to the MCC article. I followed the organization of the Shawn Colvin article to include headings, added a few details and tried to clean up some of the text. I contributed earlier to this article, but agree that it needed and still needs work. The first picture should be changed, but I can't figure out how to upload an image in the editing process. Perhaps the current top photo could be moved below to the "Personal life and Activism" section, although it might be misleading (i.e. someone might think it's her husband), but the caption should clear it up.--Loosely Wired on Oct. 13, 2006 at 15:58 CET (an American MCC fan in Europe, who hasn't heard much mention of her here).

Trivia

Someone added a bit to the career section which seemed much more appropriate to me as a trivia item, so I placed it under a new category by that name.

Name (orthography)

She formerly used a hyphen in her name: Mary-Chapin Carpenter, but now eschews the hyphen: Mary Chapin Carpenter. This probably warrants mention, as it is relevant to the technicality of what her name really is (was?). Her reasons for changing may also deserve mention, although I can't provide any authoritative information about it. According to unverified web sources, she added the hyphen in the 1980s, and deleted it in 1994 at the request of her record company. Her friends call her "Mary Chapin" rather than "Mary". Her father is Chapin Carpenter.

I recall reading years ago (perhaps in an article in The New York Times) that her friends called her 'Chapin' as she felt 'Mary' was plain or square.
I imagine she added the hyphen to avoid the assumption that 'Chapin' is part of her surname. --anon. 141.157.211.168 (talk) 03:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

Hi, does anyone know how to pronounce her middle name? I like her music, but I've never heard her name being pronounced. Does it rhyme with French "lapin"? --Kjoonlee 20:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Phonetically it is pronounced something like CHAY - pin. It is not typically pronounced as a French word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.61.136 (talk) 22:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:EssentialMaryChapin.jpg

Image:EssentialMaryChapin.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:MaryChapinTSL.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:MaryChapinParty.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:MaryChapinHometown.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:MaryChapinCalling.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:MaryChapinBetween.jpg

Image:MaryChapinBetween.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Harry Chapin - any relation?

I ask because 'Chapin' is an unusual name. I haven't heard it anywhere except with reference to these two singers. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 04:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Columnist? Added source and end date

The article currently states "Mary Chapin Carpenter has been the author of a biweekly column in the Washington Times since December 2008 in which she discusses a variety of topics related to music and politics." I looked in the WT and saw no columns since March of this year, so I added the reference to her WT story page and changed it to end in March 2009. Smontg2 (talk) 20:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

I don't know how to edit the References section. But I think that the "Boston Globe" link should be to the Boston Globe's web site (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/) rather than the Boston Globe page on Wikipedia. And I think that every reference to an article should include a link to the article, and not just a link to the publication in which the article was found. Maybe someone who knows how to edit references could help with this. Thanks. Sharon Leigh Wilson (talk) 21:46, 18 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Citations often (but not always) include wikilinks to articles on the publication, publishers or authors, so that's not really a problem. Having a link to an online source is not necessarily required to fulfil Wikipedia:Verifiability. If the source is only available online, then we would need a url to the original. If it's available in the offline version of a paper, then a link can be provided as a courtesy, but it's not a requirement. However, there should be enough information about the source material that a reader can easily go and look it up for themselves. In this case, there is a date and article title, it should be possible to find the article although ideally there should be either a url, or a page number for the offline edition.

As for actually editing the reference, sometimes it's hard to track them down in the text, but if you look for where it first appears, that's often where it is. In this case, the citation information is in the first paragraph of the "Continued 1990s success" section.--Beloved Freak 08:33, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Question about content of "2000's" section

The text here refers to "the agreement with the Dixie Chicks ("On With the Song")," but there is no previous reference to the Dixie Chicks. Perhaps it was edited out. Could one of this page's editors explain what the "agreement with the Dixie Chicks" refers to. Thanks.

Mostlyw (talk) 13:59, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

CHOICE OF FACTUAL CONTENT

Why on earth so many references to the process by which MCC announced information. Surely it is more appropriate to state the facts relating to MCC and then, if necessary, cite the source. I don't care about facebook or twitter or when she announced things or that she is "hard at work" etc... "In late 2011, Carpenter announced via Facebook and Twitter that she was hard at work on a follow-up album to The Age of Miracles. The beginning recording sessions were recorded at AIR Studios in London, England."

And there are some completely irrelevant facts, such as the following. What matters are the album title, release date(s). The following leaves doubt that the album was actually released, as well as giving irrelevant press release guff. "On February 14, 2012, Carpenter announced via her management on her official Facebook page, that her new album, Ashes and Roses, would be released on June 12, 2012." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.71.37.97 (talk) 18:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mary-Chapin?

Sometimes, but only occasionally, her name is spelled "Mary-Chapin Carpenter"--i.e. with a dash. See, for example, the cover of Come On Come On. Anyone what the deal with this is, and should it be mentioned in the article? Yilloslime (talk) 23:32, 29 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

Passed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:08, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mary Chapin Carpenter/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BennyOnTheLoose (talk · contribs) 10:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Happy to discuss, or be challenged on, any of my review comments. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio check

I reviewed the top matches found using Earwig's Copyvio Detector. There is one very large match which I'm satisfied is a reverse-copy. 52.5% match with AllMusic is nearly all titles and attributed quotes, with a couple of phrases acceptable per WP:LIMITED. 32.4% match with EW is titles and attributed quotes. Same for the two 23.1% matches with AllMusic album pages. No issues with the other three matches of 20% or more either.
No problematic close paraphrasing identified in the sources I reviewed.

Images

All images are CC; relevant to the article; with suitable captions. Positioning seems fine.
Optionally, ALT ext could be added (MOS:ALT)

Biography

Would this be better titled something like "Early life"?
Some of the text structure is a bit similar to the AllMusic source, but I think it is acceptable per WP:LIMITED
Jennings suggesting that she pursue a musical career full-time - I dont see this explicitly in the cited source.

Musical career

Spot check on The label hyphenated her first name as "Mary-Chapin" to indicate that it was a compound given name and lessen the possibility of her being referred to as just Mary. - no issues
David Browne (journalist) could be wikilinked
Spot check on it became her only one to reach number one on the Billboard Top Country Albums charts - no issues
The Atlanta Constitution (now The Atlanta Journal-Constitution) - maybe just "The Atlanta Constitution", with the wikilink?
hired a new manager named Ron Fierstein - I'd reword to something along the lines "hired a new manager, Ron Fierstein" or "hired Ron Fierstein as her new manager"
Spot check on she wanted to focus on making an album that she enjoyed, instead of attempting to find songs which would be successful at radio - no issues
Spot check on she was disappointed by the lack of radio play - no issues
Thom Jurek can be just "Jurek" after the first mention.
John Jennings can be just "Jennings" after the first mention.
Shawn Colvin can be juut "Colvin" after the first mention.
Her tours in this timespan have included... - delete "have"?

Collaborations and other works

Carpenter has made a myriad of appearances on collaborative albums. - "Myriad" is probably overstating it a bit (refers to 10,000 or a really big number)
Colvin is wikilinked here but is mentioned earlier.
This rendition was a charted single for both artists - seems an unusual phrasing to me, but I'm happy to accept it.

Musical style

David Browne can be just "Browne" after the first mention.
deserved[...]breakthrough - I usually see this in articles as "deserved{{nbsp}}... breakthrough"

Personal life

What's relied on to support Carpenter was single for most of her recording career.? I guess in my mind there's a difference between "not married" and "single".
a column in The Washington Times from December 2008 to March 2009 supported by source, but as it was, jusding from the first column, only ever planned to be "every other week", there were only actually four, by the look of it. I'd suggest either giving the number or frequency in the article.
Spot check on Ben Walsh of The Independent cited this, along with her involvements in various charities, as examples of Carpenter's liberal political leanings. - no issues.
Spot check on In fact, a lot of country artists are Democrats. - no issues.

Awards

I think it this should have citations as I don't think a reader should need to navigate to another page to see what sources verify info. (I know, for example, that the Grammys are listed in the body, but it isn't explicit that she has won five.)

Discography

I'd prefer an introductory sentence here (along the lines MCC has released x studio albums and two live albums) which could presumably be sourced to AllMusic's discography page, but I don't think I can insist on that for a GA.

Sources

All the sources appear to be reliable.
No need to address it for GA, but ideally authors should use the last and first parameters rather than the author one.
Some of the AllMusic references are missing the authors. (I checked a few links, all were AllMusic staff writers rather than user-generated content)
I'd recommend using IABot to archive links, to combat WP:LINKROT.
Range of sources is suitable for a GA, but I was slghtly surprised not to see more book sources. (e.g. Country music stars : the legends and the new breed (1992); Solo: women singer-songwriters in their own words (1998); Woman walk the line: how the women in country music changed our lives (2017) all have chapters, even if short, on Carpenter.)

Infobox and lead

General

There are some duplicate links (MOS:LINKONCE): [Grammy Award for] Best Country Song; Rosanne Cash; Emmylou Harris; Indigo Girls; Shawn Colvin; Kathy Mattea; Kim Richey; Emmylou Harris; Trisha Yearwood; folk music; Wynonna Judd; Entertainment Weekly; Academy of Country Music; Country Music Association
MOS:SURNAME says "After the initial mention, a person should generally be referred to by surname only" but there are quite a few cases where the full name is used at subsequent mentions (e.g. in instances in the previous bullet-point)
I made some script-suggested changes. Feel free to revert any.
@BennyOnTheLoose: Regarding book sources, I couldn't find many that added information not already present in the article. I think this is balanced by the use of newspaper and journal sources though. I've addressed all the other issues to the best of my ability; let me know if I missed something. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 15:58, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

TenPoundHammer I somehow managed to delete part of my incomplete review earier; there are some more comments above, but still nothing major. Thanks for your work on the article. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:51, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@BennyOnTheLoose: Think I got the other issues addressed too. Let me know if I missed anything. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 03:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TenPoundHammer: Looking good, just a couple of tweaks left.
There's another instance of "myriad" which could be rephrased per the point above.

Still some duplicate links and repeated first names. Duplicate links are Emmylou Harris (x2), Indigo Girls, Kathy Matte (x2), Trisha Yearwood (x2), folk music. Some repeated first names can be kept if they help the reader (WP:IAR)

The references for DOB can be removed from the infobox as the info is cited in the body. (WP:INFOBOXREF)
I note you didn't make changes on some of the points, e.g.
Renaming "Biography"

Adding missing authors to AllMusic refs

Archiving links.
but these aren't blockers to a GA. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed the "myriad" and went through some of the duplicate links. Think I've got all the AllMusic sources fixed too. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 15:53, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TenPoundHammer: I'm satisfied that the article meets the GA criteria, so I'm passing it. Thanks again. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.