Talk:Martian spiders

Photos

I would really like to include the following photos, which I'm 99% sure came from Nasa or the ESA or one of their subsidiaries thus SHOULD be in the public domain. However, I can't seem to find the original photos themselves (and I don't know whether the martianspiders.com owner has redistribution rights, nor have i contacted him; fow now I'm using the one picture I could find off Nasa's site as the main picture for the article). So, I'm not going to use them just yet. If someone could find them (in the public domain, IE from jpl.nasa.gov or similar pub domain licensed image site) and upload them and somehow either link to the additional photos for clarity and more examples, or include one or two with some caption text. Lots of good images here for examples.

These photos show fairly definite cratering and channeling. And definitely impact how they should be viewed. I'll try not to advance any one specific agenda though. I think that until the issue is resolved conclusively all competing theories should be paid lip service equally.

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo1201762b.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo1201762a.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo1201762c.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/old/object51.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/may2003/e1300520.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e0700829.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e0701468.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e0702165b.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e0800031b.jpg.htm (Dust devils, or geysers, or something else entirely? Not sure. Associated with the region the "spiders" are found in.)

http://www.martianspiders.com/e0800043.jpg.htm (black streaking associated with the lichtenberg figures.)

http://www.martianspiders.com/e0801508.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e902694.jpg.htm (massively overlapping figures leading to chaotic terrain)

http://www.martianspiders.com/e1003496b.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e1003496c.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e1102247.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e1200836c.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/e1203003.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo800197.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo801169.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo801169c.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo801169b.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo801333.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo801451b.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo900407.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo900407c.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo900547.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo900642b.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo1004753.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo1102686a.jpg.htm

http://www.martianspiders.com/eo1103706.jpg.htm

The first couple of photos are the best as they're nice close-ups. But I've been searchign nasa's site up anddown and can't seem to find the originals. I swear Nasa's hiding them. ;o] j/k. Not a conspiracy theorist. I'd just like to get one of the first 2-3 as the "definitive" spider photo. They show single figures in their entirety and should be considered THE "spider" photos. The rest just show variants, larger scale formations, and the chaos terrain created when a number of them all over lap.

So, yeah, if someone could find the original public domain versions of this guy's source photos, I'd appreciate it. Mgmirkin 21:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Also found the following: http://www.aig.asn.au/pdf/AIGnews_Aug06.pdf that has a section on Martian spiders which notes that they branch from a central point, and also parallel structures on earth (interesting!)... Mgmirkin 23:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Original article from Nasa or the press?

I'm hoping someone can also find the original press release from Nasa or the media about the "spiders" when they were originally discovered, before all this "life on Mars" "sand geysers" stuff was released. If someone could link to that, it would be great. Mgmirkin 21:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Basically, just a description of what was found and when? Mgmirkin 21:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Stub

Since this article is new, I've marked it as a stub and tried to fill in as much info as I could remember and find quick sources for. A few items I've marked with the fact tag to note that they still need citation. So, if anyone can find notable citations for them, I'd be grateful. Specifically, I recall them being discussed as volcanic collapse tubes at one point, I think it was described as some form of bizarre geological fault system at one point, all of which is basically nonsense, but it was put out there when the "spiders" were first seen and nobody had a clue what was going on. Just trying to put it in a historical context/timeline of who said what and when. Pretty sure someone also said it was water erosion at one point too, despite the fact that the channels were pretty steeply cut and there was no flood plain or outlet for "fluids" to run into or out of.

Anyway, any help folks can render in tracking down resources relating to the spiders would be appreciated. Team effort! =o] Mgmirkin 22:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Found a reference for the "water erosion" theory:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/polar2006/pdf/8040.pdf Skimpy, but there, it's mentioned in the first few paragraphs that one theory of the spider formation was by water/fluid erosion. - Mgmirkin 22:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Mo' betta' ones: http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/ast.2006.6.651?cookieSet=1 and http://nai.nasa.gov/nai2005/abstracts/653%20-%20NAI2005-spiders.doc.pdf - Mgmirkin 22:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This page: http://www.martianspiders.com/spiderpaper.htm lists a ton of references and papers/stuff about "spiders" on mars. I, however, don't have time to sift through it all, so if someone else could do the honors and utilize the best of the bunch in the article or as references/citations, that would be awesome! Mgmirkin 23:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

See Also

Reordered 'See Also' alphabetically. Added 'Martian spherules' to 'See Also' sich it's another semi-mysterious feature of Mars that hasn't yet been fully explained. If that link isn't necessary, someone else can take it out. No worries. Mgmirkin 16:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Added an additional info section including several facts differentiating the northern and southern hemispheres. I think it's related. Tried not to POV push, so hoefully it's NPOV. Basically, just noted that spiders appear only in the southern hemisphere, not observed yet in the northern hemisphere to date. Noted that the southern hemisphere is alignedtoward the sun at perihelion, and the northern is aligned toward the sun at perihelion, thus Intensity dictates the southern hemisphere getsa good deal more energy input from the sun during its spring/summer than the northern hemisphere gets during its respective spring/summer. Also noted the recent-ish articles on Mars remanant magnetospheres (basically magnetic bubles of magnetized minerals, most likely, according to the article(s)), which shows that pretty much the only magnetopsheres left of any size are in the southern hemisphere. For that reason, the southern hemisphere may also interact more strongly with solar radiation and charged particles from the sun. This is as demonstrated by Birkeland with his Terella experiments. IE, field aligned curents. IE, charged particles flowing along magnetic field lines. Actually, I might want to add that, since I didn't make that part clear in the article. I don't want to violate WP:NOR, so my intent is to simply make the section informational but not POV push. IE, just list the differences between north and south pole that might contribute, but without necessarily drawing definitive conclusions. IE, state physical fact (north toward sun at aphelion, south toward sun at perihelion; south pole gets more radiation and charged particles during respective spring/summer; only south pole has demonstrable remanant megnetic fields; south pole would interact differently with charged particles from the sun due to magnetic fields than north pole would with no such fields), not opinions about facts. If the section needs to be revised let me know, or edit things to be NPOV, but I hope I did okay in that regard? If not, we can chat. Mgmirkin 18:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

• Maybe the info in this section should just be integrated with 'Causes?' Except that there's really no definitive info one way or the other as to whether the 'additional info' directly influences spider formation. Still it's useful to consider the differences between north and south poles in trying to understand causation... Even if we don't yet have the full picture. Just points to ponder, I guess? For now I'll just leave it as "additional info". Mgmirkin 19:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Why was this changed?

Nondistinguished, I'm wondering why this subtle edit was made removing reference to one of the primary creators of Lichtenberg figures (electricity): Diff I'll Assume good faith, but add the reference to electricity back in, as the definition of Lichtenberg figure on Wikipedia explicitly notes electricity in their formation. Cheers. Mgmirkin 22:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, anyway, made a couple minor edits to compromise. "The formation is similar in its branching appearance to Lichtenberg figures and diffusion-limited aggregation. Similar branching patterns are also seen in watershed erosion regimes as well as the branches, roots and leaf veins of plants." DLA seems to be a fairly specific subset of Lichtenberg figures? the line(s) now refer to both Lichtenberg figures & DLA. Changed 'is DLA' to 'similar in appearance to DLA,' as the cause of the spiders has not yet been conclusively determined, despite competing theories. So, we can't say for sure yet what process 'is' the cause, just what some of the leading theories happen to point out as possibilities due to similarity. Hope this is an acceptable compromise? Mgmirkin 22:57, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Decided to leave out specific reference to electricity, as it's mentioned in the Lichtenberg figure article, and is thus implied by reference. Plus, can't find a specific reliable reference that uses the term 'electricity.' Despite "apparent" the similarity of Lf's and Lf's electrical origin (one might also note DLA's electrical origin, from sources I've seen roundabouts online, not that one should trust every source one reads online *wink*). Ahh well. Mgmirkin 23:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Lichtenberg figures are a subset of diffusion-limited aggregation which is a well-studied phenomenon in chaos theory and fractal forms. There is no reason to single out one kind of diffusion-limited aggregation. Nondistinguished 05:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal with Dark Dune Spot

Merger proposal with Dark Dune Spot because it is thought that the "spider webs" and the Martian dark dune spots may be related features caused by the same phenomenabased. Scientific sources to this:
1.- Kereszturi, A., ed. (2009), "POSSIBLE LIQUID-LIKE WATER PRODUCED SEEPAGE FEATURES ON MARS." (PDF), 40th. Lunar and Planetary Science Conference (2009), retrieved 2009-08-12 {{citation}}: |format= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |coeditors= ignored (help)

2.- "NASA Findings Suggest Jets Bursting From Martian Ice Cap". Jet Propulsion Laboratory. NASA. August 16, 2006. Retrieved 2009-08-11. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

3.- Bérczi, Sz., ed. (2004), "STRATIGRAPHY OF SPECIAL LAYERS – TRANSIENT ONES ON PERMEABLE ONES: EXAMPLES" (PDF), Lunar and Planetary Science XXXV (2004), retrieved 2009-08-12 {{citation}}: |format= requires |url= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |coeditors= ignored (help)

4.- They are unusual dark spots, fans and blotches, with small radial channel networks often associated with the location of spots. Ref:Kieffer, Hugh H. (30 May 2006). "CO2 jets formed by sublimation beneath translucent slab ice in Mars' seasonal south polar ice cap". Nature. 442: 793–796. doi:10.1038/nature04945. Retrieved 2009-09-02. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

5.- The 'Martian Spider' web page has dozens of images of radial troughs or channels with identical morphology to Dark Dune Spots (DDS); some examples: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10] BatteryIncluded (talk) 23:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)