Talk:Martha Yujra/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 09:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall

I'll take this for review, looking forward to working with you again Krisgabwoosh Mujinga (talk) 09:51, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Tubular! Glad to see you again for a third review. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 12:38, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hiya, the article is in a pretty good state although I am slightly about the difficulty in checking cited claims. Let me know what you think, if you need to change things then I'll need to do more spotchecks. Prose comments below as well. I'll put the article on hold, I'm sure you'll reply soon but if you need more time we can discuss it. Cheers! Mujinga (talk) 14:46, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great you seem to have addressed everything so I'll continue Mujinga (talk) 13:30, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK so hopefully you will see from my replies that there's a bit more work to be done. my main concern remains the tinge of original research which obviously we want to avoid in a good article. i'm open to the possibility that my lack of spanish is part of the problem, but still we do need to stick to what the sources say and not infer anything or extrapolate. Mujinga (talk) 13:53, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I've gone ahead and added notes and comments on your replies. The main solution seems to be that some things just need more citations so that they have clearer backing. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 03:00, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great I'll have a look tomorrow! Mujinga (talk) 10:22, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Made some replies Mujinga (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK so one query still open and I spotchecked two more citations, one is good, one is not so we need to discuss the latter Mujinga (talk) 15:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm now inclined to fail this nomination since every time I do some spotchecks I turn up something needing fixing, which makes me lose confidence in the rest of the references backing the claims in the article. I've first opened a discussion about this issue at Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations#How_far_to_go_with_spotchecks Mujinga (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That would definitely be a shame, but I understand if you'd choose to do so; checking all 50+ citations for every claim is an unreasonable demand. I do think the article has significantly improved thanks to your review and ensuing corrections, so even if it isn't promoted, I'd still be satisfied with the results. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 18:21, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Krisgabwoosh, I appreciate you taking a non-combative approach on this. I have enjoyed working on it with you, but I am going to fail the article since I think you need to check the citations back the claims made in the article. Once you have done that (if you feel like) then I would hope another reviewer would find the article GA quality and pass it, should you renominate. All the best, Mujinga (talk) 15:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair enough. Hope to work with you on another review in the future. Cheers! Krisgabwoosh (talk) 15:40, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

uhoh earwig is down, i'll return to that ... 0% reports but of course everything is in spanish, not seeing any copyvio in the spotchecks
article is well focused, broad and written in a neutral tone
article is stable, no edit wars or tags
pics are appropriately licensed, could add alt= as best practice but it's not a pass/fail issue

i'll draw your attention on that point Mujinga (talk) 13:32, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and added alt text to the four images. I'm only slightly familiar with how alt text works, so hopefully the descriptions are adequate. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 03:08, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lead and infobox

will return to last
seven children mentioned in infobox but not in article

Removed The number is in one of the citations but it doesn't really fit well anywhere in the article and isn't strictly necessary. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

how come Bolivia Says No redirects to Social Democratic Movement but is not mentioned there?

Bolivia Says No was an electoral alliance of which the Social Democratic Movement was the primary component. As the alliance only lasted one election cycle and never had parliamentary representation, I thought it best to link to the party rather than create its own article. I intend to update the entire article eventually. For now, I'll add a short mention. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

sorry i don't see where you did that? Mujinga (talk) 13:33, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies. I said I'd do it and then forgot to. It should be there now. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
great Done Mujinga (talk) 13:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

minister of cultures in lead, Minister of Cultures and Tourism in infobox, both linking to Ministry of Cultures, Decolonization and Depatriarchalization so that needs standardising

The Ministry of Cultures and Decolonization is the current name. At the time, it was called the Ministry of Cultures and Tourism. I'll add "and tourism" to the lead as well. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

suggest adding a sentence or two on her achievements as minister

Done Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

plurinominal only mentioned in lead, not in body

Done Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

the lead summary stops at 2019, so you can add a bit more

Her work as a trade unionist is mentioned: "Prior to serving as minister, Yujra gained notoriety for her fierce opposition to the government of Evo Morales. In 2017, she led a breakaway faction of the pro-government El Alto Regional Workers' Center". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

i meant more the ambassadorship, which you've added - i think the possibility of criminal recent charges should be added as well, sinc ethat is why a lot of readers would be coming to the article Mujinga (talk) 13:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I guess I misunderstood. When writing the article, I tried as best I could to find anything about her time in Quito but found nothing other than that she was there. This is probably owed to the fact that she was only a low-level counselor, not an ambassador. As for criminal charges, perhaps it'd be best to add that to the lead once she's actually charged with anything. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

with these suggested additions to the lead, you can prob break into two paragraphs

to add - per MOS:LEADLENGTH one or two is ok Mujinga (talk) 13:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Then I'll keep it at one for now. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:33, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prose

"within the mine of La Chojlla" sounds like she was born DOWN the mine, but I suppose you mean at the mine?

Oops, haha. Technically the entire town is the mine (it's sometimes just called Chojlla Mine) but I've nonetheless corrected it to avoid confusion: "... born ...in La Chojlla, a small mining community ..."

"Yujra lost her mother at age seven" reads a bit journalistic, could just say her mother died when she was seven

Done Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

may as well just say macho for "machista" to save the click through for non-spanish speaker like myself

Done Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"remaining a militant of that organization for over a decade" reads strangely, could just say remaining involved

Ah, yes, my mistake. Militant is often used in Spanish to refer to active members of political parties and unions. However, I understand it has more negative connotations in English. Changed to "involved in". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

yes it's one of the classic spanish to english things! Mujinga (talk) 13:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"However, Yujra's definitive break with the COR came in " - suggest removing however

Done Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"who had since enacted" suggest cut since

Done Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"assuring that "the Alteño people have joined this fight because democracy also belongs to the Alteños"" maybe keep the whole quote and have saying she was proud "the Alteño people have joined this fight because democracy also belongs to the Alteños"

Switched "assuring" with "stating". I may have misunderstood what was being suggested here. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

you can't really use assured like that, it's another classic spanish-english thing. relatedly, I would suggest changing "For her part, Yujra—herself a chola—assured that" to For her part, Yujra—herself a chola—said that Mujinga (talk) 13:40, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Replaced "assured" with "stated" in the text mentioned. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:36, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prose2

"[committed], as a woman in a pollera, ... to continue fighting for a country united in diversity". - can we have the original of this?

I didn't add the quote because it's already stated in the cited article's title: Martha Yujra: "Mi compromiso, como una mujer de pollera, es seguir luchando por un país unido en la diversidad". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

hmm ok then; a further point i also wanted to make is that going to FA you would need to translate all the titles of citations into english but I don't see that as a GA requirement Mujinga (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't know that. I'll keep that in mind. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:43, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"seeking to negotiate an end to antigovernmental mobilizations" - suggest anti-government protests

Changed to "anti-governmental demonstrations". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"anti-government" would work better for me? Mujinga (talk) 13:39, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:43, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"culminating in police repressions in the Senkata barrio" - why not just link Senkata massacre directly? Also RiP the protestors, first I heard about this

Changed to "a police-led massacre in the Senkata barrio". I wanted to keep mention that Senkata is a neighborhood in El Alto as just saying "Senkata" may seem as though it's a separate town. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"also collaborated with a criminal process" - suggest also started a criminal process

She didn't start it, the Prosecutor's Office did. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

i see - my issue was with "also collaborated with", maybe engaged could work instead of collaborated Mujinga (talk) 13:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How about "collaborated with prosecutors in a criminal process" or "cooperated with prosecutors in a criminal process"? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:43, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"cooperated with prosecutors in a criminal process" is good! Mujinga (talk) 13:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Bolivia's chola community." perhaps worth explaining chola = indigenous woman? and to say Yujre herself dresses in this way

Added "indigenous" before "chola community". Changed the link to Cholo#Bolivia to be more specific. Alternatively, Spanish Wikipedia has an article specifically about Bolivia's cholas: Chola boliviana [es]. Added "herself a chola" to "For her part, Yujra assured". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

cool, please see comment above on "assured" Mujinga (talk) 13:42, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done Krisgabwoosh (talk) 01:43, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

if the woman in the pic captioned "A COR unionist hoists the Bolivian tricolor at a parade" is in chola dress, perhaps it's worth moving that picture to accompany this text?

The picture is a bit too big to properly fit the section and would leave the "Early life and career" section barren of images. Besides, Yujra is already in chola dress in all three of the other images. If you'd like, I could see if I can find a different picture that better portrays a chola outfit. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"he who does nothing fears nothing" - she? also any update?

The original quote uses masculine pronouns (el rather than ella). I think it's just meant as a figure of speech rather than Yujra referring to herself. And no, no update since. If charges are brought against her, it'll likely be reported on and I'll add it in. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

Spotchecks

Checking this version:
1 & 2: not seeing the cite for "a small town situated in the Yanacachi Municipality"

That's where the town is, but since the citation doesn't mention it, I shortened it to "situated in the Sud Yungas". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1 & 2: "de los Yungas paceños" can become Sud Yungas Province?

The direct translation is "La Paz Yungas" which generally refers to both Nor and Sud Yungas as a whole. However, the town itself is in the Sud Yungas Province. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

yes but that then is original research, that's my point. it might be obvious to you, but it is not to me, so then you can only use what the source says (or of course find another source) Mujinga (talk) 13:43, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Changed to "situated in the La Paz Yungas" with a link to Bolivian Yungas. I assume Category:People from Sud Yungas Province is fine to be kept? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Strictly not on the cat but I'm ok with it stayign since there doesn't seems to be a better choice Mujinga (talk) 13:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

6 quote is cited in source, thanks for adding original version in ref
10 & 11: where is the backing for "Her positions often put her at odds with the leadership of the COR" in source?

As a former COR executive, Patana's mayoral bid was supported by the COR. As such, Yujra's support for Chapetón would have put her "at odds" with the broader union. I replaced "often" with "at times". Hopefully that's better. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

where is that in the source? Mujinga (talk) 13:43, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, ok, I see what the issue is. Would this citation stating that the COR supported Patana's second mayoral bid be sufficient? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
well the first paragraph of that source says "El Alto, 17 Feb.- Edgar Patana, candidate for mayor of El Alto for the Movement Towards Socialism (MAS), assured that the union of the Federation of Neighbourhood Councils (Fejuve) and the Regional Workers' Central (COR) in a single front will allow him to emerge victorious in the elections on 4 April. " [in machine translation, featuring assured hehe] so that can be used to support a statement that says Patana was supported by Fejuve and COR, but it doesn't back any of "Her positions often put her at odds with the leadership of the COR" Mujinga (talk) 13:49, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does "at times" work better? Instead of implying that is occurred, well... "often", it more indicates that such situations did happen. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 07:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All I want is for the citations to back the claims here. So can you tell me where "Her positions at times put her at odds with the leadership of the COR" is backed by the sources? Mujinga (talk) 14:52, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed the COR's preferred mayoral candidate; created her own COR faction; vocal critic of Morales, supported by the COR.

In a broad sense, I think a majority of the citations as a whole back the claim. However, given the low amount of direct sources about Yujra, I probably won't be able to find something much closer. Perhaps the sentence should be rewritten? If so, how would you suggest rephrasing? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 15:28, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I refer you back to my previous reply Mujinga (talk) 12:42, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it to "As such, her positions occasionally put her at odds with the COR, which aligned itself with Morales' party, the Movement for Socialism (MAS-IPSP)".
This citation backs the claim that the COR aligned itself with the MAS: "Édgar Patana, candidate for ... [MAS], assured that the union of the [FEJUVE] and the [COR] in a single front will allow him to emerge victorious ...".

This and this citation back the claim that Yujra's position was "at odds with the COR" by demonstrating that she supported one candidate while the COR supported another.

Hopefully, that is sufficient backing. However, if it still isn't, I think I'll just remove the sentence entirely. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 18:14, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

10 & 11: "In 2015, Yujra actively opposed Mayor Edgar Patana—a former executive of the COR—in his bid for re-election, stating that his management had set the city back by half a decade." where is the backing for that?

Citation 10 (translated): "Yujra stated that the decision [to support Chapetón] is due to the fact that the current management chaired by the mayor, Edgar Patana, meant a delay of five years, due to the fact that no major works were carried out for the benefit of the Alteños". Five years = half a decade. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

sorry where is that in citation 10, i don't see it Mujinga (talk) 13:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Untranslated quote: "La representante del MCV Martha Yujra, manifestó que la decisión se debe a que la actual gestión presidida por el burgomaestre, Edgar Patana, significó un retraso de cinco años, debido a que no se realizaron obras de magnitud en beneficio de los alteños." Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant thanks so this one is solved Mujinga (talk) 14:00, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

19: "In exchange" - where is this in source?

Maybe "in exchange" is a bad term. It can be surmised that she wouldn't have been nominated if she hadn't aligned the union with the party. However, the current wording makes it seem like she only aligned the union with the party to get the nomination. What would you suggest? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

stick to what the source says! we shouldn't be surmising anything Mujinga (talk) 13:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and removed the prefix alltogether. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
if you meant you removed "In exchange" it's still there for me? Mujinga (talk) 14:01, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It shouldn't be. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 07:57, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah my bad - I must have been looking at the archived version I also had open. Cool so that's resolved Mujinga (talk) 14:50, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

24: Pitita not mentioned?

The 2019 Bolivian protests are also broadly known as the Pitita Revolution. It's even mentioned in the lead: "the 2019 Bolivian protests, also known as the Pitita Revolution". So I don't think it needs a citation. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

but the source only says "three weeks of clashes " as far as i can see Mujinga (talk) 13:47, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The source is from the day Morales resigned, so it does not use the term. If you want, I can replace it with one that does. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
this isn't a major point i think although it might get flagged up at FAC Mujinga (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am in the process of entirely rewriting the 2019 Bolivian protests article, at which point it might warrant changing the title to Pitita Revolution, so hopefully that'll sort itself out. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 07:59, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ok Mujinga (talk) 14:52, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

30: where in the source is this info backed?

Citation 30 (translated): "The detainees accused the former minister of culture. They said that she had ordered them to make the Molotov cocktails, presumably to generate acts of violence in the mobilizations of El Alto and La Paz". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

right so "police repressions" aren't really mentioned. maybe you need another source? Mujinga (talk) 13:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake. It appears that looking at the article through the visual editor messes up the numbering of citations. Citation 31 says 30 in the visual editor so I thought you were referring to what Alanoca was accused of. For police repressions, the article states: "District 8 of the Alteña city maintains the pressure measures, after the unblocking carried out by the police and military at the Senkata hydrocarbon plant." For "unblocking", the Spanish word used is desbloqueo which has more negative connotations, typically referring to law enforcement breaking up a protest by force. Would you like me to add a citation that directly refers to the event as a massacre? Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
oh that's annoying! also im referring to this version in case you added/subtracted any sources. let's just go back to the beginning then, so the setnece is "However, more radical sectors maintained pressure measures, culminating in police repressions in the Senkata barrio" - this needs to be cited. if you are linking to the article about the massacre yes why not reference it too and add another cite from that page? Mujinga (talk) 14:04, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added a reference from when the GIEI qualified the event as a massacre. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 08:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ok Mujinga (talk) 15:03, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

32: "five departments and the Afro-Bolivian community" source (in translation) says seven identities?

That's odd. The article says "seven" but then lists only six: La Paz, Tarija, Oruro, Potosí, Cochabamba, and Afro-Bolivia. It does say "such as" to imply the list is shortened but why only remove one entry? In my opinion, the seven is probably just a mistake. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ok thanks for checking Mujinga (talk) 13:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

44: "pro-government sectors from El Alto and La Paz profiled" source says it was Movement Towards Socialism (MAS) then more specifically "leaders of social organisations such as Cofecay, Interculturales and MAS militants in El Alto, La Paz and the provinces"

Putting "the Movement for Socialism" implies that it was the government that sought charges against her, which doesn't seem to be backed by the citation. Government-aligned groups (as stated in the second quote) are the ones that sought charges. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ok but then sticking to the source you could say "pro-government sectors from El Alto, La Paz and the provinces" or similar Mujinga (talk) 13:49, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I do?: "pro-government sectors from El Alto and La Paz profiled Yujra". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
yes you do but the source says "and the provinces" as well, is what i was getting at Mujinga (talk) 14:04, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. Added "and surrounding provinces". Krisgabwoosh (talk) 08:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nice, resolved Mujinga (talk) 14:49, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reliability

All refs appear reliable

Extra spotchecks

Checking on this version:

28: Following her inauguration, amid continued social unrest in the country, Yujra presented herself as a mediator in the government's dialogue with labor sectors in El Alto.[28] - "inauguration" claim backed, "social unrest" not?, "mediator" claim backed, "dialogue with labor sectors in" claim not backed source says "los ciudadanos alteños" = citizens of El Alto. Hmm so this citation only backs 2 claims out of 4?

Moved the citation to the end of the next sentence (between 5 and 33) so that parts all three references there now cover both sentences. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 17:45, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

39: " Additionally, the Federation of Neighborhood Councils of El Alto (FEJUVE) accused Yujra of not coordinating anti-COVID measures with local authorities, despite being appointed as a presidential delegate to the city for that very purpose.[39]" - yup backed by source [also funny the source autoplayed some jolly music over the doomy ambient I was listening too :) ]

The question on ref28 still needs answering Mujinga (talk) 12:42, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]