Talk:Marriage in Israel

mamzerim

"These would not be registered or scrutinized by the rabbinate, and their children would be considered illegitimate or mamzerim, which would prohibit them from marrying a child of a couple married in accordance with halakha."

I don't think this is necessarily correct. A child is not a mamzer merely because his parents were not married in accordance with halakha. A child is a mamzer only if the union that produced the child could not have been recognized as a valid marriage under halakha, for example when a divorced woman who has not obtained a get has a child with someone other than her first husband. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.7.162 (talk) 01:04, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Initial comments

I am the creator of the English translation for this article which originates from the Hebrew Wikipedia. The article as itself is a very important and hot debated topic in Israel. this topic has a lot of interest to world wide as well - becuase the state of Israel forces its citizens and inhabitants to marry within a recognized religious denomination - a situation which is forced upon all of the people to keep the monopoly of the Jewish weddings and divorces in the hands of the Orthodox Rabinical courts - not allowing for Jewish Reform weddings or Jewish Conservative weddings within the country to happen within the country, as well not allowing people to marry with different religions. the thing which the article aims at doing is to explain why these arrangemnts have been created in the first place and list the pros and cons of keep the situation as it is as well as stating all the current development trying to solve the situation. I have put the cleanup template becuase I would need any help I can get in order to fix up the article and make it as good as possible. Acidburn24m 19:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi. This might be a translation issue. The article starts by saying, "... and inter-faith marriages performed within the country are not legally recognized" and cites P. 214 of Hanna Lerner's book. In English this reads as if it says there is a law banning interfaith marriages OR that married interfaith couples will not have their marriage recognized by the Israeli govt. Neither of these meanings is accurate nor supported by p. 214 of the Lerner book. Each religion has full control over its members' marriage rites. P 214 DOES say that Orthodox leaders are the only recognized authority for Jewish marriage rites and there is a law that Conservative and Reform Rabbis cannot do marriages in Israel. This is very different. 73.170.193.176 (talk) 01:27, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

There are considerable problems with the English in this translation. There are many obvious grammatical problems, and the text is often unclear or very difficult to understand. There are passages I cannot understand at all. Acidburn needs to be thanked for his/her contribution, but considerable revision, preferably by someone fluent in Hebrew, is needed. David

The name of the article

The name of the article needs to be changed back to "Civil marriage in Israel", mainly because the article now still focuses on Civil marriages and Israel and describes in great detail the conflicts with allowing Civil marriages being conducted or recognized in Israel. In my opinion an article named "marriage in Israel" should be more general and focus not only on the marriages in the Jewish population in Israel but also in the marriages of the Muslims, Christians, Druze, Circassians, etc. Therefore I purpose reverting the name of the article back to "Civil marriage in Israel" like it originally was. Are there any objections? Acidburn24m (talk) 15:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I intend to expand the article to cover all types of marriage in Israel, in all communities. I have concentrated so far on cleaning up the material that is there now. Any assistance would be appreciated.Ewawer (talk) 00:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

"Judaism test"

What is a "Judaism test"? Was this a test of knowledge, or an investigation of one's ancestry, or what? (Mention of this links to an article in the Hebrew Wikipedia, which I cannot read.) Thanks. Dawud (talk) 22:39, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

discrepancy

The final sentence in the introduction misquotes the citation. The sentence says 17; the article in the citation says 18. 71.163.117.143 (talk) 19:41, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Reference 33 is a prank, it reads (Google translate): Julie, Dayer (4 March 2013). "Garden imply hall (halls) Events Intelligence, luxury (luxury) Jerusalem Modi'in in central Israel, Gardens Center" . Mermoz (in Hebrew). But events center . Retrieved 14 June 2016 . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgbutler (talk • contribs) 15:07, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Is there a discussion of divorce in Israel?

Is there a discussion of divorce in Israel? If not here, where?

civil marriage

I removed this text from the lead:

Since 2014 it has been possible to have a Civil marriage in Israel. Through New Family Organization couples can get Domestic Partnership Cards, which confer legal status and rights equal to married couples on couples that cannot legally marry or do not wish to marry according to the required orthodox religious rites. Domestic Partnership cards have been issued to thousands of couples and recognized by government authorities. (with three Hebrew sources).

It is easy to find dozens of more recent good sources that state unequivocally that Israel has no civil marriage, so this text is at best confusing for the reader. I think the problem here is that whoever added this text is confused between registered domestic relationships and marriages. Being able to get recognised as a couple to get benefits that married couples receive is not the same as civil marriage, and it is even more different from civil marriage performed in Israel. As far as I know, the only actual non-religious marriages that can be performed in Israel are between two people who are both not claimed by any of the recognised religions. I hope someone with a better knowledge of the subject than I do will clarify this. Zero^talk 09:52, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not a regular editor of this article, but it seems to me that simple removal of content describing alternatives to civil marriage (if otherwise unavailable, as described in removed content here) only iinvites reinsertion and more contentious dicscussion. If civil marriage outside of legally recognized religious marriages is legally impossible, the article ought to say so and cite supporting sources. If alternatives to legally recognized civil marriages (e.g., legally recognized civil unions) are available, the article ought to say that and cite supporting sources. If persons seeking unions legally recognized as a "marriage" are unhappy with the "civil union" approach, the article ought to say that and cite supporting sources. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:42, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

== The statement in the lead that in Israel marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew is false == The lead states that "Marriage between a Jew and a Non Jew is forbidden". But that is untrue. What is true is that there is no civil marriage in Israel and that "Marriages in each community are under the jurisdiction of their own religious authorities". But Muslim courts will accept a marriage between a Jewish woman and a Muslim man (because that is acceptable in the Muslim religion) and that is ''not'' forbidden by Israeli law. There are in fact in Israel a number of Jewish women married to Muslim men. More generally no form of marriage is forbidden in Israeli law as long as it is acceptable to some religious courts approved by the state. And of course (as accurately stated in the lead) monogamous marriage between any two Israeli citizens of whatever religion contracted abroad will be accepted in Israeli law. The statement that in Israel "Marriage between a Jew and a Non Jew is forbidden" is therefore not only inaccurate, it is also a mendacious anti-Israel trope. I will remove that statement if no actual data to confirm it are brought to bear: note there is absolutely no reference given for that statement. I am surprised that such an inaccurate statement has never been challenged. How long has it been there? <small><span style="font-family:Courier New;color:blue">Contact [[User:Basemetal|</span><span style="color:#C0C0C0">Basemetal</span>]] [[User talk:Basemetal|<span style="color:red">here</span>]]</small> 15:49, 16 November 2015 (UTC) : The insertion of the mendacious statement happened on September 21st last. I changed it and provided a reference. <small><span style="font-family:Courier New;color:blue">Contact [[User:Basemetal|</span><span style="color:#C0C0C0">Basemetal</span>]] [[User talk:Basemetal|<span style="color:red">here</span>]]</small> 16:05, 16 November 2015 (UTC)Basemetal 23:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

While the statement was problematic, the new text is worse. For one thing, one of the given sources directly contradicts it: "Israel’s religious authorities — the only entities authorized to perform weddings in Israel — are prohibited from marrying couples unless both partners share the same religion." (my emphasis). Also the Daily Mail article brought as a (weak) reference for Jews being able to marry Muslims clearly says that the bride converted to Islam first. The whole paragraph is quite misleading and hides the plain fact that possibilities for marriages held in Israel are highly constrained. Will any of the religious authorities agree to marry someone not of their religion (without requiring conversion), and will the state accept it? Find a serious source that answers the question. Zero^talk 02:10, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Not as explicit as I'd like, but the sort of source that should be used in place of newspaper articles:

Interfaith marriages are not recognized either, since Judaism, Islam, and other religions impose restrictions on marriage between people of different faiths and, in many cases, even regard this kind of marriage as void. The effect of awarding exclusivity to religious law with regard to marriage and divorce is therefore a de facto prohibition on interfaith marriage. The Supreme Court has refused to acknowledge the existence of common law marriage in the case of an interfaith couple. (Zvi Triger, Israel Studies Review, Volume 27, Issue 2, Winter 2012: 1–17)

So far I don't see any source at all for the assertion that a Muslim and a Jew can be legally married in Israel unless one converts to the religion of the other. Also see: [1] [2] Zero^talk 03:04, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

::: Corrected. I'll go with the information provided by that [http://www.thejewishweek.com site] for now and will research further. <small><span style="font-family:Courier New;color:blue">Contact [[User:Basemetal|</span><span style="color:#C0C0C0">Basemetal</span>]] [[User talk:Basemetal|<span style="color:red">here</span>]]</small> 05:53, 17 November 2015 (UTC)Basemetal 23:36, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

References

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Divorce process

I would like to edit the third paragraph of the Divorce Process section to read the following:

The divorce process in Israel is unique from that in the rest of the western world because of its blend of secular and religious law. Seen as a covenant between two people and very religious in nature, only the man can file for divorce; if a woman wants to get a divorce she has to go to a court and request that they force her husband to file for a divorce. Either of the two may decline to divorce, which has different implications for each: if the man declines, the woman, if she marries another man, is seen as adulterous. If the woman declines, the man is allowed to remarry. This process is known as the Get Procedure. Ngorden (talk) 18:57, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

References

Child marriage

There was no law prohibiting child marriage in the early years of the mandate. The Palestine Jewish Women for Equal Rights Association called for legislation against child marriage in three appeals and several letters to the Chief Secretary between 1928 and 1932, signed by Dr. Rosa Welt-Straus. The 1931 census found 37 cases of girls married under the age of 11 (35 Muslims, 1 Jewish, 1 Christian) and an additional 43 (39 Muslim, 2 Jewish, 2 Christian) under the age of 12. After obtaining the approval of the Grand Mufti on the condition that existing marriages among minors which complied with Sharia law would not be made void ("females of 9 years of age and upwards" reads the report of the Chief Secretary), approval was obtained by the high commissioner from all heads of churches, the chief Rabbis and Agudath Israel in 1932 for setting the legal age at 15. However, when finally made in 1934, the amendment to article 182 set the minimum age for marriage at 14. PJW- ERA criticized the decision and demanded the minimum age be raised to 16, citing approval from the Mufti and chief Rabbis.--ארינמל (talk) 19:55, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

The age must have been changed to 15 between 1934 and 1936. In the Criminal Code Ordinance published in Palestine Gazette #652 Suppl. 1 (Dec 14, 1936) it says "Any person who..issues a licence for the celebration of the marriage of a female who is under the age of fifteen years completed..is guilty of a misdemeanour and is liable to imprisonment for six months." Also, parental permission is required up to age 18. Another relevant section says that it is a misdemeanour (two years imprisonment) to have intercourse with a female to whom one is married unless she has attained 15 years, or has reached puberty, or (here comes the general purpose get-out-of-jail ticket) a medical practitioner has issued a certificate that such intercourse would have "no physical ill effects" on her. A summary of this should be in the article but it needs sources (English sources if available). Zero^talk 04:29, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Bigamy and polygamy in Mandatory Palestine

The article also lacks information on this subject. The Health department collected some data in the very first years of the mandate, titled "Polygamy in Palestine and the Relation of Sexes." It was estimated that between 10-15% of the Bedouin and Fellahin practiced polygamy, particularly the weakest stratum in these societies, as opposed to 5% among the rich classes. A proposed amendment to the Criminal Code on this matter in 1939 was met with some objection from the Orthodox and Armenian churches, as well as the Chief Rabbis appealing on behalf of Yemenite Jews. --ארינמל (talk) 11:07, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The 1936 Criminal Code was emended in 1947 by addition an additional defence to a charge of bigamy: "that the law as to marriage applicable to the husband both at the date of the former marriage and at the date of the subsequent marriage was Jewish law and that a final decree of a Rabbinical Court of the Jewish Community, ratified by the two Chief Rabbis for Palestine and giving permission for the subsequent marriage, had been obtained prior to the subsequent marriage." (Palestine Gazette Extraodinary No. 1563, Supp. 1, 15 March 1947). Zero^talk 12:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

In 1956 bigamy was extensively discussed by various ministries, the prime minister, the army leadership and the Israeli Security Agency, after it was brought to light that some Israeli Muslims, Bedouins in particular, had found a way around the 1936 law through a "partial divorce". It was acknowledged by the ministry of religions that the existing law discriminated against non-Jews, and an amendment allowing non-Jews to take a second wife under special circumstances was suggested and later made.--ארינמל (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

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Marriage of Lucy Aharish and Tzachi Halevy

The recent marriage of Lucy Aharish and Tzachi Halevy has widely been reported. (See the articles on the two people for sources.) It’s probably the most prominent interfaith marriage in Israel and as such should probably be mentioned here, especially since the article suggests that the marriage should not be possible (unless Halevy converted, which hasn’t been reported anywhere to my knowledge.) A JPost article only gives

The pair wed in a ceremony in northern Israel. Couples of different religions cannot legally marry in Israel.

… but nobody (not even critics of the marriage) have denounced the marriage as illegal. We should probably clear this up. —ThorstenNY (talk) 20:16, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

Christian churches

The 2nd paragraph of #1 History includes "nine Christian denominations (none of which were Christian Protestant churches". #1.3 includes "In 1970, the Anglican Church was included with these recognised churches. At the same time, special arrangements for the recognition of marriage were made between the State of Israel and the Lutheran, Ethiopian Orthodox, and Coptic Orthodox churches." but there is no mention of through what 1970 document it was included or reference to the status of other Protestant churches. Mcljlm (talk) 17:42, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Remote (video) marriages

The SC has ordered that the state register civil marriages performed by video.[3]

Question: does this grant such couples the rights of marriage, or merely require that they be listed in a registry? That is, can interfaith and same-sex couples now (fully) marry in Israel?

— kwami (talk) 03:06, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Supreme Muslim Council

The Supreme Muslim Council was not reconstituted in 1967. A completely different organization was created called Supreme Muslim Committee (Hay'ah), not Council (Majlis). It's first chairman was expelled from the country soon after foundation. It had no official recognition by Israel or authority in Jerusalem. I think the whole section should be deleted. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 16:21, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Inter-faith marriges in Shari'ah courts in Israel

The article says:"Inter-faith marriages are permitted only between Muslim men and Christian or Jewish women." Although Shari'ah law permits Muslim men to marry Christian or Jewish women such marriges are not allowed in Israel. Jews in Israel can only marry in Orthodox Jewish courts which does not allow any intermarriges. Jokkmokks-Goran (talk) 13:27, 15 November 2024 (UTC)