Talk:Marktkirche, Hanover

View of the interior

360 degree view, found on de: 360° Grad Panoramafoto der Marktkirche im Advent 2011 --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question about the full name in Germany

The full "German" name of the church is a combination of German and Latin. But, is the abbreviation for "Saints" in Latin or is it in German? (I thought the Latin abbreviation would be Ss.) And, I don't know what the abbreviation is in German. Comments, anyone? --Kenatipo ^speak! 03:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The abbreviation "St." in German church names is spoken and sometimes written "Sankt", derived from Latin "sanctus", of course, but invariant and reduced in its actual (protestant) meaning to "follows historic church name". The consequently Latin name should be "Sancti Georgii et Sancti Iacobi" or "Sanctorum Georgii et Iacobi", but is never used like that. Greetings, --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 13:25, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Rabanus Flavus. To recapitulate, "St." is German, and invariant (there is no plural form). That's good to know. --Kenatipo ^speak! 17:08, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly :) --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 20:12, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Part of my confusion came from our reference footnote #2, namely the one from the Stadtlexikon Hannover, which uses S. instead of St. Do you have any thoughts on that? Is it just a typo, or is it an acceptable variant? --Kenatipo ^speak! 22:20, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think they suppose that written that way it's Latin... Might be interesting to see a medieval seal of the Marktkirche. I'm not informed about when the abbreviation "Ss." for "Sanctorum" came in use. --Rabanus Flavus (talk) 05:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Making it flow better

@Gerda Arendt and Grimes2: Hi. I would like to see if the opening sentence of this article may be improved. As it is (see below), I just don’t think it "flows".

The German: Marktkirche St. Georgii et Jacobi (Market Church of Saints George and James), commonly known as Marktkirche (Market church), meaning church on the market place, is the main Lutheran church in Hanover, Germany.

Given that the article name is Marktkirche, Hanover, how about the following?

The Market Church (German: Marktkirche, meaning 'church on the market place'), formally Market Church of Saints George and James (Marktkirche St. Georgii et Jacobi), is the main Lutheran church in Hanover, Germany.

That is, open with the short form rather than the long form, and for readability as well as MOS:FOREIGN (foreign terms should be used sparingly) use English in preference to German. May I please ask for your opinions and positions on the above, since you have edited the article in the last year? Betterkeks (talk) 13:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, please edit the article. Grimes2 (talk) 13:34, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Grimes2: Thank you. I’ll wait a few days to give Gerda Arendt the opportunity to respond before going ahead. Betterkeks (talk) 05:36, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fine by me, and next time: no need to wait for me ;) - You might say, after introducing the market thing, that it was built (when) as and then the official name, - I'm not sure it even had market in it, which is kind of the typical common name. Compare Frankfurt Cathedral, which is not a cathedral, never was one, but this is the common name. Perhaps the market came with the Reformation? The Neustädter Kirche same town still proudly carries St. Johannis, officially. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done (well, that bit), but I’ll "keep chipping away at it" then. As for the name, isn’t the market place between it and the old town hall? I presume (but don’t know) that the market place established itself next to the church that was there before (dating to 1125, according to the German Wikipedia page), or the other way around, and the colloquial name Marktkirche evolved even before the current building began to be built in the 14th century. The current building certainly seemed to be integrated with the market place: note the three-storey building attached to the tower, and the small stall on the left of that attachment, in the image below.

.

Does either of you know what the 'f' in "p. 426f" (one of the references) means? Betterkeks (talk) 11:25, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

pp. 426f (page 426 and the following page), pp. 426ff ( page 426 and the following pages) Grimes2 (talk) 12:52, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I also now found it described in ff.. I’ll be WP:BOLD and change "426f" to "426–427", and "426ff" to "426–". With my background being STEM I’ve not come across this notation before, I cannot recall coming across it in the MOS (WP:PAGENUM doesn’t cover it although doesn’t rule it out either, but WP:CS1 and WP:CS2 do not support it), and on the English Wikipedia "426–427" is probably more likely to be understood broadly than "426f". Please let me know if you object. Betterkeks (talk) 05:06, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, done. I spent the day reading, trying to see if there is any record of when it came to be known as Marktkirche, and when the market came to be, but couldn’t find anything so just added what IS known. I find it striking that (1) the market and the church are pretty much dead smack in the centre of the old town, so that is probably the point around which the old town grew, and (2) Saint James (patron saint for pilgrims and merchants?) was added AHEAD of Saint George which would seem proper if the market right next to it was the source, or a symbol for the source, of the wealth that made the building possible.

Location of Market Church within approximate location of old town walls.

But without citations that is nothing but supposition. Betterkeks (talk) 14:39, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

1124-1141 Wie der archäologische Befund und der weltliche Patronat nahelegen, wird in dieser Zeit die St. Georgskirche, die Vorgängerin der heutigen Marktkirche Hannovers, von Graf Hildebold I. gestiftet und ebenso der sich südlich anschließende Markt begründet. Dies ist die historische Hauptursache für die spätere Entstehung der Stadt Hannover an dieser Stelle. Als Parochie wird der neuen Kirche ein Teil des Altkirchspiels Engelbostel, über das Hildebold als Eigenkirchenherr verfügt, zugelegt, so u. a. die Dörfer Hageringehusen und Puttensen, vielleicht auch schon der Hof List. (STADTARCHIV HANNOVER – Stadtchronik Dr. Klaus Mlynek / Dr. Waldemar Röhrbein Chronik der Stadt Hannover von den Anfängen bis 1988 Textfassung der 1991 publizierten Stadtchronik von Dr. Klaus Mlynek und Dr. Waldemar Röhrbein: „Hannover Chronik. Von den Anfängen bis zur Gegenwart. Zahlen – Daten – Fakten“) Grimes2 (talk) 15:20, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Grimes2: Thanks. I worked that into the introduction as it seems significant. It still isn’t clear when the church began to be called Marktkirche, so I left it unsaid ... not everything needs to be said. I suspect you’re onto something Gerda Arendt because even if Marktkirche entered the vernacular before the reformation I suspect it may not have been written down as such then, in addition to the timeline in Hanover for the shift from Low German. Betterkeks (talk) 03:53, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]