Talk:Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse)

Biography: Royalty and Nobility Start‑class

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
Start	This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility (assessed as Mid-importance).

Germany Low‑importance

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Russia: History High‑importance

	Russia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the history of Russia task force.

Finland Low‑importance

	Finland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Finland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Finland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FinlandWikipedia:WikiProject FinlandTemplate:WikiProject FinlandFinland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Poland Low‑importance

	Poland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women's History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Moving

she converted to orthodoxy and changed her name (shortly) before her marriage. Thus, Maria Alexandrovna is her pre-marital name, and also very clearly the name she was best known. Therefore I feel that the article (now Marie of Hesse and by Rhine) could be renamed Maria Alexandrovna of Hesse. 217.140.193.123 6 July 2005 07:53 (UTC)

IMO those parenthetical disambiguations are messy. As this "Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse)" is already very close to Maria Alexandrovna of Hesse, please move this to that heading. Unnecessary to use parentheses when one word, "Hesse", instead, makes the same. 217.140.193.123 16:51, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I find the present title acceptable, and preferable to that suggested above by an anonymous user. Deb 17:51, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The correct way for this title is "Maximilienna of Hesse and the Rhine (Maria Alexandrovna)". Having her birth name in front and the name she accepted in Russia in parentheses. Popov 2000

Requested move

I disagree. WP naming conventions dictate that the deceased wife of a sovereign should be named with her maiden name and country. Ex: Mary of Teck, Alice of the United Kingdom. Not to mention, this current title is ambiguous with Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna of Russia. Switching these to Maria Alexandrovna of Hesse and Maria Alexandrovna of Russia would provide some disambiguation. --Matjlav^(talk) 20:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done. —Centrx→talk • 01:22, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 March 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse). There's also a consensus to move Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine back to Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (1874–1878) and redirect the old page to this title. Jenks24 (talk) 09:21, 13 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse and by Rhine) → Marie of Hesse and by Rhine – This proposed title is in line with WP:CONSORTS, and it's also unambiguous. The present title is bad because it uses parenthesis to give alternate name of the subject, but parenthesis should be used for WP:parenthetical disambiguation instead. Vanjagenije (talk) 13:30, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. There is another person of the same name: Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine. Celia Homeford (talk) 14:38, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you are right, though I wonder why Marie of Hesse and by Rhine redirects to this article. Anyway, my proposed title is maybe not the best solution, but I still to whink the article should be moved to some new title. The current title with alternate name in the parenthesis is against naming conventions. Do you have some better option? Maybe we should use Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (1824-1880), like we use in many other cases (like Princess Elisabeth of Hesse and by Rhine (1864–1918) or Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine (1933–1937))? Vanjagenije (talk) 16:36, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think the child Marie should be moved back to Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (1874–1878) because I don't see that she is the primary topic for the name. It doesn't make sense to have the empress from Marie of Hesse and by Rhine and the child from Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine. This is like my argument at Talk:Prince Henrik of Denmark (born 2009)#Requested move 28 February 2017: I don't see why the primary term should lead the reader to a child leaving the more notable adult's article disambiguated.
Exactly. This is why we have primary redirects, which is by far the most misunderstood part of disambiguation. Jut because an article title isn't used for its primary topic, that doesn't make the title available as the title for another article, as many seem to assume. If there's a primary topic but the article on that topic has another, better name, then the term redirects to that article. Andrewa (talk) 17:20, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You say that the title of the empress's article is against naming conventions but it fits with the sixth point at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#Consorts of sovereigns, which says Russian tsarinas can or should be disambiguated with the maiden name. While I agree it seems rather long (why not just 'Marie of Hesse'? 'and by Rhine' is superfluous surely?), I don't see much room for trimming. We're still going to have to use dates or 'consort of Alexander II' or similar to disambiguate. The real question is what is the most useful disambiguator, i.e. what is it about her that will allow the reader to most quickly determine that they are at the right article? Currently, I still favour the maiden name (shortened to 'Marie of Hesse') as I think people are more likely to know that than the dates and it is shorter than 'consort of Alexander II'. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:27, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support alternative Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse). Should we relist to make this clear? I think we have consensus above for this, but would welcome another opinion. I also note that this completes a full circle of moves, beginning 22:13, 2 April 2014‎ Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk | contribs | block)‎ . . (68 bytes) (+68)‎ . . (Rms125a@hotmail.com moved page Maria Alexandrovna (Marie of Hesse) to Princess Marie of Hesse and by Rhine (). Andrewa (talk) 22:25, 9 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support alternative The shorter version would be consistent with Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse). Celia Homeford (talk) 14:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Maria Alexandrovna Empress of Russia.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:21, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

20190709kujuMariehamnis.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:37, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]