Jump to content

Talk:Maria Lacerda de Moura/GA1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GA Review

[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 15:40, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Review

[edit]
  • I'll take this one for review Mujinga (talk) 15:40, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • To start off, I see this is a translation of the PTwiki article. Grnrchst I hope you have access to the sources, because I'm having problems to find them for spotchecking. At the very least I will want to check the direct quotations and I can't trust PTwiki for verification. Also, if I go to google scholar and check english only results, it turns up articles which are not listed. This isn't FAC, so everything we can find doesn't need to be assessed and included, but criterion 3 is broadness of coverage and since this is ENwiki I'd expect to see some of the english language articles in there.
    • Examples:
    • Jesse Cohn "Anarchism in India" in The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest
    • Freitas da Silva, Filipe Gordino. "Lacerda de Moura, Maria (1887–1945)." The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest (2009): 1-2.
    • Representations of science and technology in Brazilian anarchism: José Oiticica and Maria Lacerda de Moura - GL Queluz - Circumscribere, 2011
    • Desire and its Indelible Destiny: The Dream of Plural Love among Libertarian Anarchists - MBR Flores - Revista Estudos Feministas, 2020
  • Thanks for taking this review on! I've added some English language sources. Unfortunately a couple, including the Flores (2020) you mentioned, are listed with English titles but are actually in Portuguese. --Grnrchst (talk) 17:34, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Grnrchst if you are around perhaps we can discuss. I'm wondering if it's better to quickfail or not. The main sticking points are broadness and prose. I'm open to the possibility of the portuguese language sources being broad enough already and if you have energy to sort the prose then we could continue, otherwise perhaps it's better to stop and renominate later. What do you think? (And thanks for pointing out that the Flores is actually in PT) Mujinga (talk) 17:42, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mujinga Yeah I have the energy to fix the prose, it's the main thing I was hoping to improve through this process anyway. If you're still not confident after the prose is sorted, then I'm willing to accept it being failed. -- Grnrchst (talk) 18:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Cool let's keep going then .. please ask me if anything isn't clear. Next question, do you have the sources? Then maybe I can ask for fotos/scans of specific pages of Leite? Mujinga (talk) 18:08, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I have immediate access to about half of the sources in the bibliography. Unfortunately none of the principally cited sources appear to be in any libraries in my city. For Rago (1995) I would need to go to a neighbouring city; for Rago (2007) I would need to go to a city on the other side of the country; and for Leite 1984 & 1986 I would need to go to an entirely different country. Apologies if this gets in the way of a more thorough review. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:30, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Right - I was wondering about that. For verifiability I def need to check the Leite. That's one thing which can perhaps be resolved using the wonderful Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange although they can't do whole books. Another thing is then that you've translated from PTwiki and assumed that the verifiability can be transferred but it can't. This article appears to be recognised on PTwiki as good work but that doesn't mean anything here unfortunately, I still need to check the cites and for direct quotes we really should gave the portuguese version somewhere, maybe in quote= in the ref Mujinga (talk) 18:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I can look into using the Resource Exchange. Another option would be to ask the principle author of the PTwiki article, but they haven't made any edits since May, so they may not be available.[1] --Grnrchst (talk) 18:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    So I've just made my spotcheck comments a bit clearer. On the version I looked at at the beginning of the review proces, I'd def like to be able to spotcheck Leite 1984, Rago 2007 and Soihet. Do you have access to any of these three currently? Resource exchange could def help with Soihet at least. Asking the pt author is a great idea! Mujinga (talk) 11:20, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    OK so I think at this point I'll put the review on hold. There's work to be done and I'm confident we can get there. The usual period for a hold is a week or less, but in this case I'm fine with the process going longer while we track down sources - just as long as we keep in contact. I've replied to some things below, it doesn't seem worth replying on prose at the moment since the prose may change again as the source situation develops. Please do ask for clarification if anything's not clear and for now let's keep talking on the sources. Mujinga (talk) 11:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mujinga: I have now provided excerpts and rough translations for all the citations highlighted in the spotcheck. Let me know what I should do next with these. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:30, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    There's way too many issues with close paraphrasing arising, thanks for your sterling work and it's been a pleasure to collaborate but I'll have to fail this on copyvio grounds. I'll make some notes and give more reasoning below Mujinga (talk) 21:14, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I have immediate access to Soihet 2007. But as per above, I would have a bit of difficulty accessing Leite 1984 and Rago 2007. -- Grnrchst (talk) 18:23, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Just managed to find a copy of Rago 2007, but it's paginated differently than in the cite book version. That shouldn't stop me from verification in this case though, so long as I can find the right excerpts. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Success! I have also managed to find a scanned copy of Leite 1984. So I should be able to get around to verifying it ASAP. --Grnrchst (talk) 20:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Template

[edit]
Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Images

[edit]
  • Images on the article are appropriate and licensed
  • It's not required but I'd suggest adding alts for accessibility per MOS:ALT

Copyvio

[edit]
  • earwig turns up nothing, but since the source are currently all portuguese it wouldn't pick up much

Prose

[edit]
  • As a general point, this is a translation from the PTwiki and sometimes the english seems a bit wooden. I'm quite used to this since I copyedit Spanish-English and I'll point it out where I see it. I know it as Spanglish - this is I suppose Portuglish?!
  • I'll always do the lead last
  • There's a lot of references to Leite - makes sense if it's the biography on one hand, on the other relying on one source for an entire section (eg early years) isn't the best look
  • "the social question" / "the social issue" - what that does that mean?
  • "The social question/issue" was a turn of phrase that used by early socialists to refer to the prevalence of poverty and inequality under capitalism. I mostly see it used in Portuguese and Spanish language texts, so wasn't sure what the best translation for this was. (The phrase is also used in the articles for social and socialism) --Grnrchst (talk) 18:02, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
i know what you mean, but in english we need another turn of phrase Mujinga (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rewritten as "social inequality". Hope that functions well. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Barbacense Literacy Campaign" - Barbacena Literacy Campaign?
Yeah I think in english we'd say Barbacena Literacy Campaign Mujinga (talk) 18:16, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "refreshing pedagogical ideas" goes to Progressive education - refreshing is editorial, if the link is there is should be better signposted
yeah that's much better, there's still the one in the lead as well, but we can return to the lead last Mujinga (talk) 18:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the feminine condition" - what does that mean
I think in english we would say something like what you said, the condition that women found themselves in at the time Mujinga (talk) 18:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Think I have resolved this. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:57, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She tried to solve the problem of abandoned minors in Barbacena, arousing the interest of her students for the underprivileged population" - this needs an english translation
Thanks for giving the portuguese wikitext, but what does the source say in portuguese? Mujinga (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The attention focused on the larger cities, where the periodicals came from, appears in Maria Lacerda de Moura's articles written in Barbacena. While writing or speaking to her students, she frequently disclosed the information that the capitals provided her with" - needs an english translation
  • In Portuguese Wikipedia this was written as: "A atenção voltada para as cidades maiores, de onde vinham os periódicos, aparece nos artigos de Maria Lacerda de Moura escritos em Barbacena. Enquanto escrevia ou falava a suas alunas, estava frequentemente revelando as informações que as capitais lhe forneciam." I've attempted to rewrite for better clarity, let me know what you think. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:02, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I'd rather see what the source says . And sorry for the reply function seemingly not indenting properly Mujinga (talk) 18:22, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "outside her city" - I'm lost, better to say Barbacena
  • These conferences established the bridges for Maria Lacerda's departure - needs an english translation
  • "her move to São Paulo" - section header- "The move to São Paulo" - repetition

Prose2

[edit]
  • women's associative movements- what does this mean? and same later on
movement to create women's organisations (or associations) is much clearer! Mujinga (talk) 18:23, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Rewritten. --Grnrchst (talk) 20:01, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • the effervescent workers' movement - effervescent isn't encyclopedic
  • now outside the official framework of the State - is it necessary to link to State (polity) here?
  • contributing to the workers' press - "workers' press" sounds like the printing machine to me rather than the media. and same later on
  • "parasitic" and "dependent" - who is saying that
  • delegated Bertha Lutz to represent her at the International Women's Federation, which she had created with women from São Paulo and Santos, at the Pan-American Women's Conference in Baltimore- so the International Women's Federation is a panel at the Pan-American Women's Conference?
  • The International Women's Federation is an organisation, while the Pan-American Women's Conference is an event. The "her at" part shouldn't actually be there, as Lutz was representing the former at the latter. I have rectified this. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • as she came to understand - says who
  • she also established some polemics - needs english translation
  • collaboration with the libertarians was accentuated again - needs english translation
  • Maria Lacerda intensified her theosophical convictions in contact with the - needs english translation
Not really, but I'm sorry my meaning wasn't clear. First we need to look back at the original source to see what it says (and if there's close paraphrasing). Second, regarding "Without abandoning spiritualism, Maria Lacerda intensified her theosophical convictions after coming into contact with the Santista poet and painter Ângelo Guido" - that's not really english, english would say something more like: After meeting poet and painter Ângelo Guido, Maria Lacerda deepened her theosophical convictions without completely losing her spiritualism. [question: is theosophy spiritualism becuase then we have an internal contradiction] But of course we need to look at the source first. Hopefully that shows where I am coming from. Mujinga (talk) 18:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Theosophy isn't spiritualism, although the two can both be considered new religious movements. I've rewritten per your suggestion. -- Grnrchst (talk) 20:06, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prose 3

[edit]
  • "published issues of the magazine Renascença" - I was wondering about this, because earlier it's named Renaissance but it would seem more likely to have a portuguese name so I guess its the same publication?
  • "in the interior of São Paulo" - so it's a state as well as city?
  • "She also kept a weekly column in O Combate, which united several progressive forces in São Paulo" - "In her weekly column in the newspaper O Combate she unleashed" - repetition of column and unleashed dosn't seem encyclopedic
  • This was a sarcastic and immoderate text" - says who
  • jamming of newspapers - what does jamming mean
  • anticlerical and anti-clerical are both used in the article, so that should be standardised
  • tentacular - what does that mean
  • "She thus explained its offensive capacity" - what does that mean
  • "she emphasized the tragic and threatening character of Italian fascism" - says who
  • "supreme resistance - where does quote end?
  • "publicized the forms of opposition to and precipitation of war" - what does precipitation mean?
  • "Maria Lacerda identified herself with those who saw in education a process for modifying society" - needs english translation
  • "which she juxtaposed with the dominant ideology" - what was the dominant ideology?
  • "Throughout her life, Maria Lacerda adopted quite advanced positions" - says who and what does "quite advanced" mean
  • Overall, "Maria Lacerda" - is this the way to refer to her? I would have thought Lacerda de Moura or de Moura, sources seem to be all over the place on this issue
  • When referring to her by her surnames, sources tend to give preference to "Lacerda", at least in the ones available to me. Should I replace instances of "Maria Lacerda" with simply "Lacerda"? --Grnrchst (talk) 19:36, 11 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what is best here if the english language sources differ. We may have to ask for advice from a relevant wikiproject since it's important to get it right. Mujinga (talk) 11:25, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Selected publications

[edit]

- maybe take the three or four most significant and delete the rest?

That's an elegant solution, can I ask that the English titles are also italicised? Mujinga (talk) 11:27, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done. -- Grnrchst (talk) 15:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
[edit]
  • is the nodo50 link copyright ok?
Great! Mujinga (talk) 11:26, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Translated by Sharkey, Paul and who is the author?
I'd say use "anonymous" or similar Mujinga (talk) 11:26, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done. -- Grnrchst (talk) 15:57, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

[edit]
  • On this version:
  • 1 want to check leite 1984, cannot
  • 7 cannot check rago 2007
  • 13 cannot check leite 1984
  • 14 cannot check rago 2007
  • 16 cannot check rago 2007
  • 22 cannot check leite 1984 - would be good to give the original words in a quote in the ref, and in other instances where this happens
  • 28 cannot check leite 1984
  • 29 cannot check leite 1984
  • 36 cannot check leite 1984
  • 59 cannot check leite 1984
  • 61 want to check quote in leite, cannot
  • 63 want to check leite, cannot
  • 65 want to check leite, cannot
  • 67 want to check soihet - it has a doi - https://doi.org/10.22409/rg.v2i2.452 - but could not access it

Soihet

[edit]
  • Here is the excerpt from Soihet 2007, p. 385:

    [...] Maria Lacerda de Moura, que logo se desligou do movimento, é uma exceção nesse quadro. Miriam Moreira Leite trouxe à tona, em rica biografia, suas reflexões sobre os diversos aspectos da condição feminina. Assinalou suas posições avançadas, em muitos aspectos similares àquelas das feministas da década de 1960. [...]

Roughly translated into English:

[...] Maria Lacerda de Moura, who soon left the movement, is an exception in this environment. Miriam Moreira Leite brought to light, in a rich biography, her reflections on the diverse aspects of the feminine condition. She pointed out her advanced positions, in many aspects similar to those of the feminists of the 1960s. [...]

Let me know how you think I should proceed next. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:01, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for changing "advanced positions" seems ok now Mujinga (talk) 21:11, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rago 2007

[edit]
  • Excerpt from Rago 2007, p. 277:

    Oriunda de uma família anticlerical e tendo-se formado pela Escola Normal de Barbacena (MG), em 1904, toma contato com as idéias pedagógicas renovadoras da médica feminista Maria Montessori e dos pedagogos anarquistas Paul Robin, Sebastien Faure e Francisco Ferrer y Guardía. [...]
    Em 1919, no mesmo momento em que essas escolas pioneiras, localizadas nos bairros operários sofrem um violento ataque por parte do governo e são completamente destruídas pela repressão policial, Maria Lacerda trava contato com o professor e militante anarquista José Oiticica, que visitava Barbacena, iniciando-se, então, uma grande amizade.

Roughly translated:

Coming from an anticlerical family and having graduated from the Escola Normal de Barbacena (MG), in 1904, she came into contact with the refreshing pedagogical ideas of the feminist doctor Maria Montessori and of the anarchist pedagogues Paul Robin, Sebastien Faure and Francisco Ferrer y Guardía. [...]
In 1919, at the same time that these pioneer schools, located in working class neighbourhoods, were violently attacked by the government and completely destroyed by police repression, Maria Lacerda made contact with the teacher and anarchist militant José Oiticica, who was visiting Barbacena, and a great friendship was born.

In this case, it's a bit too close to what the source says for comfort, so I have rewritten. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:37, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Rago 2007, p. 277-278:

    Em 1921, logo que chega a São Paulo, em meio às agitações operárias do período, Maria Lacerda inicia sua colaboração na imprensa anarquista, escrevendo em jornais como “A Plebe”, “A Lanterna” e “O Trabalhador Gráfico”; realiza palestras nos meios operários e sindicais, como a “União dos Trabalhadores Gráficos”; é convidada a unir-se à bióloga feminista Bertha Lutz e às suas companheiras para a fundação da “Federação Internacional Feminina”, cujo programa anunciava o objetivo de “canalizar todas as energias femininas dispersas no sentido da cultura filosófica, sociológica, psicológica, ética, estética – para o advento da sociedade melhor.”

Roughly translated:

In 1921, as soon as she arrived in São Paulo, amidst the workers' agitations of the period, Maria Lacerda started to collaborate in the anarchist press, writing in newspapers such as "A Plebe", "A Lanterna" and "O Trabalhador Gráfico"; she gave lectures in workers' and union circles, such as the "União dos Trabalhadores Gráficos"; she was invited to join feminist biologist Bertha Lutz and her companions in founding the "International Women's Federation", whose programme announced the aim of "channelling all scattered female energies towards philosophical, sociological, psychological, ethical, aesthetical culture - for the advent of the better society."

Curiously this mentions her founding the "International Women's Federation", not the "Brazilian Federation for Women's Progress" as in the article. I wonder why that is. For now I have rewritten the text to bring it in line with the cited source and I'm wondering whether it's appropriate to the leave quote from the Federation's programme in there. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:57, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Rago 2007, p. 278:

    Um ano depois, porém, já a encontramos divorciada dessa organização de tendência liberal, entendendo que a luta pelo direito de voto respondia a uma parcela muito limitada das necessidades femininas, mas jamais seria um caminho para sua própria emancipação. No primeiro número da revista feminina “Renascença”, que lança em São Paulo, em fevereiro de 1923, suas posições políticas libertárias se explicitam:

    "O que a mulher altamente emancipada reivindica, na hora atual, não é o simples direito de voto - é muito mais do que isso. Não é a concessão política, a entrada no parlamento ou um cargo administrativo - o que aliás não revoluciona a questão da emancipação feminina.(...) E, porventura, os homens não estão sacrificados? (...) Emancipar a mulher? Não! Emancipar o gênero humano!"

Roughly translated:

A year later, however, we already find her divorced from this liberal organization, understanding that the fight for the right to vote answered a very limited part of women's needs, but would never be a path towards her own emancipation. In the first issue of the women's magazine "Renascença", which she launches in São Paulo in February 1923, her libertarian political positions are made explicit:

"What the highly emancipated woman claims at the present time is not the simple right to vote - it is much more than that. It is not a political concession, entry into parliament or an administrative post - which, by the way, does not revolutionize the question of female emancipation. And aren't men sacrificed? (...) Emancipate the woman? No! Emancipate the human race!"

Let me know if you think anything needs changing in respect to this. --Grnrchst (talk) 21:00, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This ref is used three times:
1: In 1922, she distanced herself from the women's associations, which had been fundamentally concerned with women's suffrage, as she came to consider that the struggle for the right to vote answered a very limited portion of women's needs.
- so here's there's closeparaphrasing. "women's associations" is also not really the same as " this liberal organization this liberal organizatio" and has a whiff of original research
2: Although in her early work she defended the struggle for women's suffrage, she came to understand that the right to vote responded to a very limited portion of women's needs and that it did not represent a path to her own emancipation
- close paraphrasing again, which includes some of the same plaigirised words as above, and they're also in the lead
3: quote is good Mujinga (talk) 21:26, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Leite 1984

[edit]
  • My copy of Leite 1984 isn't OCR'd so bare with me on any errors, especially with diacritics. For Leite 1984, p. viii:

    Maria Lacerda de Moura nasceu em 1887, na fazenda Monte Alverne, em Manhuagu, na entao provincia de Minas Gerais. Aos 4 anos, em 1891, a familia (pai, mae, irma e irmao) transferiu-se para a cidade de Barbacena, ainda em Minas, onde o pai conseguiu um cargo de oficial do Cartério de Orfdos, enquanto a mae fazia doces. Sua escolarizacdo iniciou-se no externato de freivas do Asilo de Orféos da cidade. Aos 12 anos, Maria Lacerda matriculou-se na Escola Normal Municipal de Barbacena. Nao teve filhos do casamento com um pequeno funcionério, Carlos Ferreira de Moura. Em 1912 adotou Jair, um sobrinho, e Carminda, uma órfa carente. Após o casamento, retomou a vida profissional de professora, em 1908, e de jornalista, em 1912, quando também passou a participar da Campanha Barbacenense de Aljabetizagao e de obras de benemeréncia da cidade.

Roughly translated:

Maria Lacerda de Moura was born in 1887, on the Monte Alverne farm, in Manhuagu, in what was then the province of Minas Gerais. When she was 4 years old, in 1891, the family (father, mother, sister and brother) moved to the city of Barbacena, still in Minas Gerais, where her father got a position as an official of the Office of the Secretary of Orphans, while her mother made sweets. Her schooling started in the nuns' school of the Orphans' Asylum of the city. At the age of 12, Maria Lacerda enrolled in the Municipal Normal School of Barbacena. She had no children from her marriage with a small employee, Carlos Ferreira de Moura. In 1912, she adopted Jair, a nephew, and Carminda, a needy orphan. After her marriage, she resumed her professional life as a teacher, in 1908, and as a journalist, in 1912, when she also started to take part in the Barbacena Campaign for Literacy and in the city's charities.

As before, I've rewritten the sections that were too closely worded for comfort. --Grnrchst (talk) 08:13, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So the present start of our article body is :
In 1887, Maria Lacerda de Moura was born in Manhuaçu, in the province of Minas Gerais. In 1891, when she was 4 years old, she moved with her parents and siblings to the city of Barbacena, where her father worked in the Orphans' Registry Office and her mother made confectionery. She began her studies at the boarding school of the city's orphanage and,when she was 12, she enrolled in the Escola Normal Municipal de Barbacena.
This is still way too close to the Leite. Mujinga (talk) 21:28, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 37:

    Antes do artigo de Bertha Lutz, publicado na Revista da Semana (RJ) de 28 de dezembro de 1918, Maria Lacerda de Moura se sentira atraida, em Barbacena, pelo movimento associativo de mulheres em busca de uma safda para a condicdo “parasitéria” e “dependente” da mulher brasileira. Em seus primeiros liveos, Em torno da educaçao (1918) e Renovaçao (1919), incluiu referéncias positivas aos esforgos de Bertha Lutz na criaçao da Federagio Brasileiza pelo Progresso Feminino. June Hehner refere-se à correspondéncia entre as dues em 1920 e colaboraçao mantida na criaçao da Liga para a Emancipacio Intelectual da Mulher. Em 1922, Maria Lacerda delegou a Bertha Lutz a ropresentaçao da Federagée Internacional Feminina, que criara com mulheres de Sao Paulo e de Santos, na Conferéncia Pan-Americana de Mulheres, em Baltimore. Essa colaboraçao, todavia, nao deve fer curado muito, pois nem mencionada na autobiografia que Maria Lacerda escreveu em 1929.

Roughly translated:

Before Bertha Lutz's article, published in the Revista da Semana (RJ) of 28 December 1918, Maria Lacerda de Moura had felt attracted, in Barbacena, by the associative movement of women in search of a way out of the "parasitic" and "dependent" condition of Brazilian women. In her first books, Em torno da educação (1918) and Renovaçao (1919), she included positive references to Bertha Lutz's efforts to create the Brazilian Federation for Women's Progress. June Hehner refers to the correspondence between the two in 1920 and their collaboration in the creation of the League for the Intellectual Emancipation of Women. In 1922, Maria Lacerda delegated Bertha Lutz to represent the International Women's Federation, which she had created with women from Sao Paulo and Santos, at the Pan-American Women's Conference in Baltimore. This collaboration, however, must not have lasted very long, since it is not even mentioned in the autobiography that Maria Lacerda wrote in 1929.

Let me know how you think I should proceed with this. --Grnrchst (talk) 08:28, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
this reference is used twice:
1 While still in Barbacena, Maria Lacerda had been attracted to the feminist movement, in search of a way of improving conditions for Brazilian women
- just about far enough away from the Leite
2 In 1922, Maria Lacerda delegated Bertha Lutz to represent the International Women's Federation at the Pan-American Women's Conference in Baltimore
- still plaigirised from Leite Mujinga (talk) 21:32, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 147-148 - note that this is from Maria Lacerda's autobiography:

    E com Han Ryner me veio a calma. Han Ryner me trouxe o desejo maior de uma purificaçao interior bem mais alta.
    Com Han Ryner me veio a solugio desejada.
    Só agora, parece, penetrei um dos segredos da Vida.
    Só agora senti o problema humano.
    É o subjectivismo, é o “individualismo da vontade de harmoni: é o “Conhece-te a ti mesmo pata aprenderes a amae”, é o individualismo neo-estoico de Han Rynet que me illuminou a consciencia e me deu a noçao mais alta da liberdade ethica.
    Fraternismo e subjectivismo, amor e savedoria, Jesus e Epicteto! Conheger-se, realisar-se — para aprender a amar.
    E tenho o direito e o prazer de sonhar a minha metaphysica livre. E digo com Han Ryner: “O sim dogmatico e o nao dogmatico esti bem perto um do outro. Sem o sorriso da duvida e a musica do sonho, nenhuma liberaçao é completa! Nem affirmar, nem negar: —— sonhar".
    Livre de escolas, livre de igrejas, livre de dogmas, livre de academmias, livre de muletas, livre de prejuizos governamentaes, religiosos & sociaes.
    Tao anti-social quanto possivel. Resta o conhecer-me para tentar a minha realizagio. Um novo ponto de partida.

Roughly translated:

And with Han Ryner, calm came to me. Han Ryner brought me a greater desire for a much higher inner purification.
With Han Ryner came the desired solution.
Only now, it seems, have I penetrated one of Life's secrets.
Only now did I feel the human problem.
It's subjectivism, it's the “individualism of the will to harmony": it's the “Know yourself to learn to love”, it's Han Ryner's neo-stoic individualism that enlightened my conscience and gave me the highest notion of ethical freedom.
Fraternism and subjectivism, love and savior, Jesus and Epictetus! To know oneself, to fulfill oneself — to learn to love.
And I have the right and the pleasure to dream my metaphysics free. And I say with Han Ryner: “The dogmatic yes and the dogmatic no are very close to each other. Without the smile of doubt and the music of the dream, no release is complete! Neither affirm nor deny: —— dream".
Free from schools, free from churches, free from dogmas, free from academies, free from crutches, free from governmental, religious & societal prejudices.
So anti-social as possible. It remains to get to know myself to try my realization. A new starting point.

Let me know how you think I should proceed. --Grnrchst (talk) 08:47, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 60:

    A violenta polémica de 1928 originou-se num dos artigos semanais de Maria Lacerda de Moura em O Combate, jornal da frente democrdtica, fechado em 1930. Que dizia o artigo? Tratase de um texto sareéstico ¢ imoderado a respeito das homenagons prestadas pela imprensa e pelo clero brasileiros a um as da aviacio italiana que morreu ao fazer um raid Roma-Natal. A mensagem do artigo esté diluida na multiplicidade de focos. A critica violenta aos termos da homenagem ao aviador morto une-se a reptovacio aos motivos da viagem, rejeitando-se a astentagio desviada para feitos esportivos ¢ demagégicos. Qs valores condenados na homenagem — a religido, a familia e a patria — sio substituidos pela adesio e apoio aos herdis obscuros, representados pelos imigrantes, trabalhadores italianos.
    Os protestos foram muitos. A Nota-do-Dia, Il Piccolo e A Fanfulla revidaram em termos violentos e chulos as “blasfémias proferidas”. Maria Lacerda contou com a defesa solidria de O Combate, jornal paulista que abria suas paginas a uma conjagagio de forcas polfticas que incluiam desde as oposigdes ao poder dominante do Partido Republicano Paulista aos agrupamentos operérios e sua agremiaçao partidéria, o Bloco Operdrio e Campones.

Roughly translated:

The violent polemic of 1928 originated in one of Maria Lacerda de Moura's weekly articles in O Combate, newspaper of the democratic front, which was closed in 1930. What did the article say? It was a sarcastic and immoderate text about the tributes paid by the Brazilian press and the clergy to an Italian airline pilot who died during a Rome-Natal raid. The message of the article is diluted in the multiplicity of focuses. The violent criticism of the terms of the tribute to the dead airman is joined by repudiation of the motives of the trip, rejecting the astuteness diverted to sporting or demagogic achievements. The values condemned in the tribute - religion, family and homeland - were replaced by support for the obscure heritages represented by the immigrants, Italian workers.
The protests were many. The Nota-do-Dia, Il Piccolo and A Fanfulla fought back in violent and pimp-like terms against the "blasphemies uttered". Maria Lacerda had the supportive defense of O Combate, a São Paulo newspaper that opened its pages to a combination of political forces that included from the dominant power of the Republican Party of São Paulo to the opposition of the workers' groups and their party organization, the Workers and Peasants Bloc.

Let me know how you think I should proceed. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:07, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 57-58:

    Sua atuaçao, como desencadeadora da frente antifascista, se deu precocemente e corresponde a um periodo de sua vida rico em aliancas, sempre transitérias, com grupos politicos aparentemente incompativeis: os anarquistas e os comumistas, Paralelamente á actuaçao de Clara Zetkin entre os comunistas soviéticos, se bem que com a tendéncia da nao-violéncia, Maria Lacerda desencadeou uma polémica de grandes proporcées com os jornais da colénia italiana em Sao Paulo Il Piccolo e A Fanfulla, em 1928. Essa polémica chegou a movimentar estudantes de direito, provocou comicios e o empastelamento de jorais, em sua defesa. Em 1933, respondeu a um inguérito, realizado entre intelectuais brasileiros, sobre o anti-semitismo. As conferéncias que pronunciou contra a guerra, em Sao Paulo, Sorocaba, Campinas, Santos e Rio de Janeiro e em cidades argentinas, eram sempre um posicionamento diante das consequéncias do fascismo. Em 1934 e 1935, escreveu seus dois livros antifascistas, Clero e fascismo — horda de embrutecedores e Fascismo — filho dilecto da Igreja e do capital, provocando nova polémica com os anarquistas, colaboradores de A Plebe.

Roughly translated:

Her action, as initiator of the anti-fascist front, took place very early and corresponds to a period of her life rich in alliances, always transitory, with apparently incompatible political groups: The anarchists and the communists, Parallel to the action of Clara Zetkin among the Soviet communists, although with a tendency of non-violence, Maria Lacerda unleashed a polemic of great proportions with the newspapers of the Italian colony in Sao Paulo Il Piccolo and A Fanfulla, in 1928. This polemic moved law students, provoked commotions and the jamming of newspapers in her defence. In 1933, she replied to an enquiry, carried out among Brazilian intellectuals, about anti-Semitism. The conferences she gave against the war, in Sao Paulo, Sorocaba, Campinas, São Paulo, Santos, Rio de Janeiro and in Argentinean cities, were always a stand against the consequences of fascism. In 1934 and 1935 she wrote her two anti-fascist books, Clero e fascismo - horda de embrutecedores e Fascismo - filho dilecto da Igreja e do capital, provoking a new polemic with the anarchists, collaborators of A Plebe.

Let me know how you think I should proceed. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:16, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 70-71:

    Inspirada em Tolstoi, Mahatma Gandhi e em Romain Rolland, Maria Lacerda escreveu diversos artigos sobre aspectos da guerra, fez conferéncias e assinou manifestos chamando a atençao publica para seus perigos e a necessidade de romper a mistica de sua inevitabilidade; dois livros e um opúsculo seus denunciam as conquistas do capitalismo e da ciéncia aplicades ao exterminio humano. Propos à mulher um papel decisivo contra as guerras - a recusa de servicos diretos e indiretos aos preparativos e aos combatentes e a greve dos ventres, impedindo o nascimento de uma populaçao que o Estado incorporaria aos exércitos. Afastou-se claramente dos comunistas, para quem “a propaganda pacifista esconde (dentro de si) a grave insidia de tranqililizar e paralizar as energias revolucionatias de luta co proletariado”. É em sua propaganda pacifista que se delineou com mais clateza a posigtio assumida, a partir de 1926. Considerava o uso da força para resistir à força um mal maior; aderindo à doutrina da suprema resisténcia e da nao-violéncia, “o unico e ultimo caminho aberto no mundo do capitalismo industrial”.

Roughly translated:

Inspired by Tolstoy, Mahatma Gandhi and Romain Rolland, Maria Lacerda wrote several articles on aspects of war, gave conferences and signed manifestos calling public attention to its dangers and the need to break the mystique of its inevitability; two of her books and a booklet denounce the conquests of capitalism and of science applied to human extermination. She proposed to the woman a decisive role against wars - the refusal of direct and indirect services to the preparations and combatants and the strike of the wombs, preventing the birth of a population that the State would incorporate to the armies. She clearly distanced herself from the communists, for whom "pacifist propaganda hides (within itself) the serious insidiousness of tranquillising and paralysing the revolutionary energies of the proletarian struggle". It is in his pacifist propaganda that his position from 1926 was most clearly outlined. She considered the use of force to resist force a greater evil; adhering to the doctrine of supreme resistance and non-violence, "the only and last path open in the world of industrial capitalism".

Again I've rewritten the sections that were too close for comfort. Let me know how I should proceed further. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:40, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 67-68:

    Quando, em 1935, publicou Clero e fascismo horda de embrutecedores!, o livro teve uma tradugdo castelbana, em Rosério, em 1936, com prélogo de Juan Luzarte, autor de Sociedad y prostitución, para o quel, por sua vez, Maria Lacerda de Moura eserevera o preficio, Logo apés publicava Fascismo — filho dilecto da Igreja e do capital.
    O que diferencia estes dois livros, publicados um em seguida ao outro, é a énfase do primeiro no caxiter trégico e ameaçador do fascismo italiano e a do segundo, nos instramentos de poder e repressio da Igreja.
    Clero e fascismo ... compoe-se de diversas partes, frequentemente redundantes, sobre diversos aspectos do fascismo: sua origem intelectual, marcos de sua expanstio, as contradiçoes e o oportuniso nos discursos de Mussolini e a alianga do fascismo com o papado.
    Fascismo ..., composto igualmente de artigos e conieréncias, procura mostrar essa organizagao politica como expresso de uma nova Contra-Reforma, capaz de engendrar uma Inquisiçao com recursos multiplicados, para fazer frente & revolucio social. Sob a influéncia direta da obra prolifica de Han Ryner, Maria Lacerda de Moura conciui que o ideal de “associar o individualismo dos espiritos e o comunisme das mios” estaria afastado para quando se suprimissem a autoridade e a violéncia.
    Nos dois livros, uma quantidade de informagoes de nivel muito heterogineo, como afirmag&es pessoais, noticias de jornal, relatos históricos, citagées de enciclopédias e de autores populares, confundem o leitor. Dessa disposigéio assistemética de dados e idéias, é possível extrair, de um e de outro, algumas condiçoes da vida politica brasileira e projetos politicos que a envolviam. No primeiro existe, sob a forma de citacio, informagées sobre os ideals de expansio fascista em Séo Paulo, em funcdo da populosa Colénia italiana e referéncias à colaboraçao dessa colonia à “guerra civil” de 1932. No segundo, além da parte referente a atuaçao politica do clero (também na Revolugio de 32) na vigéncia de D. Sebastiao Leme, encontram-se referéncias reverentes, embora distantes, ao comunismo da Unido Soviética e aplauso’ incondicional a anarquia, seguido pela afirmagio de que ainda néo houve anarquistas.

Roughly translated:

When, in 1935, she published Clero e fascismo horda de embrutecedores!, the book was translated into Spanish in Rosario in 1936, with a preface by Juan Luzarte, author of Sociedad y prostitución, for which, in turn, Maria Lacerda de Moura wrote the preface.
What differentiates these two books, published one after the other, is the emphasis of the first one on the treacherous and threatening caxiter of Italian fascism and the second one on the Church's instruments of power and repression.
Clergy and fascism ... is composed of several parts, often redundant, on different aspects of fascism: its intellectual origin, the milestones of its expansion, the contradictions and opportunism in Mussolini's speeches, and the alliance of fascism with the papacy.
Fascism ..., also composed of articles and conferences, seeks to show this political organisation as an expression of a new Counter-Reformation, capable of creating an Inquisition with multiplied resources, to confront the social revolution. Under the direct influence of Han Ryner's prolific work, Maria Lacerda de Moura concludes that the ideal of "associating the individualism of the spirits and the communism of the masses" would be far away when authority and violence were suppressed.
In both books, an amount of information of very heterogeneous level, such as personal statements, newspaper reports, historical accounts, quotations from encyclopaedias and popular authors, confuse the reader. From this asystematic disposition of data and ideas, it is possible to extract, from both, some conditions of Brazilian political life and political projects that involved it. In the first, in the form of quotations, there is information on the ideals of fascist expansion in Séo Paulo, due to the populous Italian colony and references to the collaboration of this colony in the "civil war" of 1932. In the second, besides the part referring to the political action of the clergy (also in the Revolution of '32) under D. Sebastiao Leme, there are reverent, though distant, references to the communism of the Soviet Union and unconditional applause to anarchy, followed by the affirmation that there were still no anarchists.

Again, I've rewritten some parts. Let me know how I should proceed further. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:56, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 137:

    Duas caracteristicas da autodidata refletiram-se na rebeldia manifestada na vida/obra de Maria Lacerda de Moura: o isolamento eo ecletismo. Sempre se manteve (e foi mantida) isolada, dentzo dos diferentes grupos de que proveio ou a que aderiu. Nem sequer encontrou espaco na geragiio das normalistas intelectuais das primeiras décadas do século XX. Decorrente também desse relativo isolamento, a pobreza, a falta de formacio cultural do ambiente proporcionavam-lhe leituras méitiplas, mas ocasionais, e uma aglutinago de tendéncias, comum entre os intelectuais da Primeira Republica. A insurgéncia solitária ou minoritária contra a autoridade, pelo protesto contra a ordem imperante, alimentando “um sentido revolucionério como a matéria simples busea a forma", foi o caminho por que optou, licida e às cegas.
    Na comunidade de Guararema (1928-37) propuaha a desergao da sociedade como

    “attitude serena, imperturbavel e tenaz e persistente no campo das ideas e dos sonhos de liberdade, a attitude delineada no gesto magnifico de Mahatma Gandhi — esse formiddvel precursor do novo methodo de Iucta que as almas bem nascldas teem de emrevar contra as forgas negras do passado reaccionério.
    A “suprema resistencia” ou nao-violencla ou nao cooperaçao é o unico e ultimo caminho aberto para novos destinos humiatios. E a “acçao direta”, é uma acedo e a mais potente como a mals nova das acgoes, no dizer de Romain Rolland. Nao é a resegnaçao passiva, a justamente a attitude do verdadeiro combate, é o combate contra as tyranias interiores, é o combate das alas, a lucta no campo mais aito das ideas e dos sentimentos humanos — que a humanidade atravessa a crise suprema de wm pasado fossil zado, de cadaveres insepultos e de uma ‘possibilidade luminosa, debatendo-se no meio dos crimes e dos erras de lesa-felicidade de todo o genero humano”.

    pois

    "A violencia revolucionaria a inteiramente impotente para resolver a questao social. A questao social a precisamente a supressaio de toda violencia, de toda autoridade, Ndo se cura o alcoolico mudando a forma de seu copo. (O Pensamento de Tolstoi)"

Roughly translated:

Two of the self-taught characteristics were reflected in the rebelliousness manifested in the life/work of Maria Lacerda de Moura: isolation and eclecticism. She always remained (and was kept) isolated, within the different groups she came from or joined. She did not even find a place in the generation of the intellectual normalists of the first decades of the 20th century. This relative isolation, poverty and the lack of cultural formation of the environment provided her with occasional media readings and the agglutination of tendencies that was common among the intellectuals of the First Republic. The solitary or minority insurgency against authority, through protest against the prevailing order, feeding "a revolutionary sense like simple matter seeks form", was the path he chose, licitly and blindly.
In the community of Guararema (1928-37) she proposed the desertion of society as

"serene attitude, imperturbable and tenacious and persistent in the field of ideas and dreams of liberty, the attitude outlined in the magnificent gesture of Mahatma Gandhi - that formidable forerunner of the new method of resistance that well-born souls have to defend against the black forces of the reactionary past.
The "supreme resistance" or non-violence or non-cooperation is the only and last path open to new human destinies. And "direct action", in the words of Romain Rolland, is an action, and the most powerful as the newest of actions. It is not passive resignation, it is precisely the attitude of true combat, it is the combat against inner tyrannies, it is the combat of the wings, the struggle in the most sensitive field of ideas and human feelings - that humanity goes through the supreme crisis of a fossilized past, of unburied corpses and a 'luminous possibility, struggling in the midst of crimes and misfortunes of all human kind".

for

"Revolutionary violence is entirely powerless to resolve the social question. The social question is precisely the suppression of all violence, of all authority. One cannot cure the alcoholic by changing the shape of his glass. (Tolstoy's Thought)"

Let me know how I should proceed. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:14, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 86:

    Na producio cultural adotou o discurso e a pritica pedagégica dos anarquistas, que justapds à ideologia dominante. A sociedade burguesa, com seus valores, suas discriminagies e a transmissio dessa heranga cultural, teve na professora primdria um de seus instrumentos de ampliacio de poder. Ao tentar transformar essa herança e seus processos de hiererquizacdo, respondia-se ainda a um desafio estabelecide pela cultura hegemdnica, em sua linguagem, logica e tabus sociais. As concepedes renovadas e regeneradoras dos agrupamentos sociais procuravam por em prática os ideais de solidariedade, fraternidade, internacionalismo, auto-res. Ponsabilicade e liberdade individual, que o capitalismo industrial transformara em competicio, exploragiio, nacionalismo, alienacéio e servidao, Era preciso contrapor instramentos e mecanismos sociais articulados aos interesses e a vida dos dominados aos insttumentos e mecanismos detcrioracos, mas extremamente eficientes, de implantaçao do poder dos dominantes.

Roughly translated:

In cultural production she adopted the discourse and pedagogical practice of the anarchists, who juxtaposed the dominant ideology. The bourgeois society, with its values, its discriminations and the transmission of this cultural heritage, had in the primary teacher one of its instruments of power amplification. When trying to transform this heritage and its hierarchical processes, it was still responding to a challenge established by the hegemonic culture, in its language, logic and social taboos. The renewed and regenerating conceptions of social groupings sought to put into practice the ideals of solidarity, fraternity, internationalism, self-responsibility and individual freedom. It was necessary to counterbalance social instruments and mechanisms linked to the interests and life of the dominated against the detrimental but extremely efficient instruments and mechanisms for the establishment of the power of the dominant classes.

Let me know how I should proceed. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Leite 1984, p. 81:

    Com referéncia & educagdo escolar das moças, considera que:
    "A escola tem effeito deprimente no organismo e na psychase (sic). E o regimen do temor, da emulagio, de castigos e premios, de oppressao, de esforço, de exigencias (...) As estatisticas affirmam que as meninas so as mais prejudleadas e isso desenvolve nellas e aperfeigoa mais, se & posstvel, a tendencia para a histerta, para as nevroses e para o servilismo, a sujeiçao, a resignagio passiva. Donde se conclue que a escola actual é instrumento reaccionario do passado conservador e rotineiro, é inimiga da civilizaçao de liberdade e continuadora da escravidao feminina”.

Roughly translated:

With regard to the school education of girls, he considers that:
"School has a depressing effect on the organism and on psychase (sic). It is a regime of fear, of emulation, of punishments and rewards, of oppression, of effort, of demands (...) Statistics affirm that girls are the most prejudiced and this develops in them and perfects more, if possible, the tendency to hysteria, to neurosis and to servility, submission, passive resignation. From this we conclude that the present school is a reactionary instrument of the conservative and routine past, it is the enemy of the civilisation of freedom and the continuer of female slavery".

Let me know how I should proceed. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with close paraphrasing

[edit]

Oh dear it's clear from the above that the writer of the PT article was plaiarising multiple texts and unfortunately with the translation of their text into EN, this has brought close paraphrasing into the EN article. Something like earwig won't pick this up of course but we have uncovered multiple examples above, some fixed, some not. I'm sorry for all the work you have put in, but I would urge you to continue since once you write this article from the ground up it can easily be a good article and I'm sure in time a featured article as well, which would be a superb tribute to this amazing woman - who I had never heard of before. The options would be either to revert to the stub and start again from scratch, incorporating details from the english articles vas well, or to carry on checking each reference one by one. I honestly don't know which is easier at this point; I'd prob do the first to be honest. I know it's really frustrating, I've had to unpick copyvio before and it takes ages but at least the plagiarism has been discovered and can be fixed. As a sidenote, are you active on PT, because the article should def not be a starred article there.

To sum up, there were 65 references on the article as it was when I first looked at it, at the beginning of the GA process:

  • Soihet was used once, and we found close paraphrasing ("advanced positions"). That's been fixed.
  • Rago 2007 was used 12 times, and I wanted to spotcheck 3 instances. Of these 3, you found close paraphrasing in on and a bad error in another, I've found close paraphrasing in the third so I have no confidence in the other 9 refs not containing any plagiarism.
  • Leite 1984 was referenced 48 times, some of them being multiple refs. I wanted to spotcheck 10 instances and you have already found close paraphrasing in three, which you have admittedly rewritten, but I can still find cose paraphrasing on a cursory look so I have no confidence in the rest of those citations at this point.

I'm sure the other sources imported from PT need checking too. I've placed a close paraphrasing tag on the article and will fail the review now. It's a shame but I hope you are not too disappointed and will continue to work on the article. All the best, Mujinga (talk) 21:38, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mujinga: Aye this was indeed incredibly frustrating and discouraging to discover. It's made me anxious about other articles that I have translated from different language Wikipedias. I'm not active on PT Wikipedia but I agree that this should definitely be brought up over there. I had just assumed that it being FA over there meant they had checked it for plagiarism...
I'll probably go through this article bit-by-bit, cross-reference it with the sources and rewrite each section in my own words. It'll probably mean the article is reduced a little, as I'll want to follow summary style a bit closer. That seems, at least to me, to be a better course of action than reverting this to a stub and building it from the ground-up.
Apologies for wasting your time on this, I'll be sure to fix these issues as soon as I can. Ciao. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:44, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Maria_Lacerda_de_Moura/GA1&oldid=1180764585"