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Konkani Wikipedia

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Dear Konknni friends,

Konkani Wikipedia has been started and been in test stage since August 2006.

Kindly contribute towards the Konkani wikipedia. We intend to make it a multiscript

Wikipeida. At least tri-script with Roman ,Devanangiri and Kannada scripts since these are the most popular ones.

We would like to get more articles/templates in place. We also need volunteers to do the thankless and boring job of transliterating it to different scripts .

As of now only two members are making active contributions. The more the merrier. Your contribution is vital to its success.

The url is given below:

http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Konkani_Wikipedia

Dev boro dees deum! -Deepak D'Souza 05:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please contribute

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All Mangalorean Catholics, please contribute towards this page. I really don't know whether my text meets encyclopedic standards or no. Neither do I know whether the references meet the standards. Whwtever I am doing is just to expand the page. Please improve the page. Since there is no discussion, I don't know what is right and what is wrong.
Kensplanet (talk) 14:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good Work Ken. This page reall needed some work and you have done a good job. A suggestion: why not remove the surnames part. I feel it is really unnecessary as it includes a broad range of Lusitanic surnames and does not add anything of value . Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 10:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have removed it.----Kensplanet (talk) 11:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please Refer

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I suggest editors to refer to the below mentioned articles since they all are featured articles. We should try to emulate these articles on People.

Our Article should be somewhere near these articles...............Kensplanet (talk) 11:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well , we disagree on a lot of points, so let me list out each item and my points so you can ad your comments there:

[1] The articles you have pointed to are good but the situaltions arent the same. For instance :

  1. Do we have exact figures for the population of Mangalorean Catholics in each country? The actual numbers are miniscule. The total number of Indians in USA is less than 1 %. forget counting Magaloreans.
So what do U recommend. Can U show me the template here on the talk page.====Kensplanet (talk) 08:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Mangaloreans have migrated to practically every country that has a better GDP than India(and I am sure there are plenty of them!). Cna we list them all? There are a few in Karachi too!
  2. Unlike Tamil people who have been present in Singapore, Malaysia etc for centuries and have become part and parcel of the local life and culture, in most places Manglaoreans are at most 2nd generation migrants. Their numbers and concentrations do not have a significant impact on the regions outside the west coast of India.
  3. Lastly as far as POV is concerned mentioning India would give the cursory reader the impression that they are spread all over India. And how many non_mangaloreans or non-Konkanis would read this article anyway. If someone is intersted they will take the trouble to find out what Canara is. Most foreigners dont know where Mumbai is!! Forget that most Americans cannot point out where Iraq is on a blank map! Like we say in the IT industry: You can make a program bug-free but you can't make it idiot proof :-) --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[2] The article Roman Catholicism in Managlore has to be seperated from this article. They aren't meant to be the same. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Completely Agree....
Roman Catholicism in Mangalore and Mangalorean Catholics are totally different.====Kensplanet (talk) 07:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


[3] & [4] While the surnames section was removed for good, I feel the localized names is good. The notable peoples sectionshould stay. It is present in most articles about communities. However it needs to be reviewed from time to time to weed out non-notable entires. Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK I am adding both. But however please do not allow it to have subsections,------Kensplanet (talk) 08:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[5] & [6] Three notable sies mention Kasargod as a part of Mangalore diocese. No differnetiation is made between Kasargod taluka and district. the article clearly states Konkani speaking catholics and not others(including Tulu Protestants in M'lore). If someone makes assumptions, it is not our problem. --Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 05:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree the entire Kasargod district comes under the Mangalore Diocese. But the problem is whether can we call the Catholics of Kasargod as Mangalorean Catholics. There is no mention anywhere that Catholics under the Mangalore Diocese are Mangalorean Catholics. If we include all the Catholics of Kasargod, then we are including even the Malyalee Catholics of Kasargod. Kerala has a huge (arounfd 20%) Xtians. Protestants are not our concern................Kensplanet (talk) 08:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Suggested new intro paragraph

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Friends, since this page seems to be the work of a small group of dedicated people, I hesitate to come in and make significant edits. But the opening paragraph, I feel, needs work. The editorial tone is not neutral enough, and I'm not certain that the facts are flowing in a logical order.

Here's a draft of a new introductory paragraph -- still needs work, but I believe that this kind of tone is what's appropriate.


Mangalorean Catholics (Konkani: Kodialche Katholik) are Catholics from the Mangalore Region of India which consists of the present South Canara and Udupi districts. They are Konkani people belonging to the Konkani ethnicity; their mother tongue is Konkani. They are the descendants of Goan Catholics who fled Goa during the Portuguese-Maratha Wars and the Goa Inquisition. The history and existence of Mangalorean Catholics in Mangalore dates back to the 15th century. Today, a large Mangalorean Catholic diaspora is scattered across the globe, with emigrant communities in Arab Gulf nations and Anglosphere still closely tied to Mangalore culturally and traditionally.


Hope this helps. God bless.

--Athansor (talk) 23:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree Words like "bastions" etc dont sound encyclopeadic.--Deepak D'Souza (talk • contribs) 06:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. The Lead In has been modified. Thank you for your suggestions.Kensplanet (talk) 08:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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I can see that a lot of work has been put into this article, but I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to list it as a GA. Having assessed the article against the good article criteria there are three problems I think:

  • There are many unreferenced sections. The Origins subsection, for instance, is completely unreferenced. As a rule of thumb I would expect to see at least one citation per paragraph.
  • Weasel and peacock words:
  • "This migration is suppposed to be one of the major contributions for the Mangalorean Catholic community." Who says so? "A recent cultural event held by them had entered the Guinness Book of World Records by creating an astounded continuous singing record for 40 hours." Who's astounded?
  • "During the 15th century, the Portuguese were not successful in establishig their presence in Mangalore due to the ardous resistance from the valiant Vijayanagara ruler Krishnadevraya and the dauntless Bednore Queen of Mangalore Abbakka Rani of Ullal." I'm not sure what arduous resistance is anyway.
  • "Some experts had estimated that approximately 30% have moved to other parts of India." Who are these experts?
  • "Some experts have estimated that the remaining 20% of the population have left India for greener pastures abroad." Again, who are these experts?
  • "It is estimated that there are over 300 Mangalorean Catholic families in Sydney with quite a number of second-generation families." Estimated by who?
  • The text needs a thorough copyedit:
  • "Culturally, due to the forced imposition of the Western culture. Politically, due to the military attacks by the Sultans of Bijapur and the Maratha warriors." Sentences have to include a verb.
  • "Gradually these Christians learnt the local languages of Mangalore, but retained Konkani as their mother tongue, they built churches, organized parishes, started industries and warehouses in Mangalore to promote socio-economic and cultural development in their own way." Run-on sentences.
  • "The consternation of the Maratha Empire was a major cause of the migration of the Goan Catholics towards Mangalore." How does consternation cause migration?
  • "Combining Mangalore which is in India, approximately 80% of the Mangalorean Catholics live in India." I don't understand what this is trying to say.
  • "The St. Lawrence Shrine which is located here, has a rich history of miracules with its origin tracing back to 1759 A.D". Is that meant to be miracles?
  • "The Fried Fish of the Mangalorean Catholics is a gourmets all time favourite." Reads like a travel brochure.
  • "Tipu committed several excess on the Christians ...". Several has to be followed by a plural, for example excesses.

This list is not exhaustive, I have just tried to give an idea of the sorts of issues that need to be addressed before a successful GA nomination. I would suggest listing this article for a peer review, and/or asking a member of the League of Copyeditors to go through it before nominating it again. If you disagree with my decision not to list this article, then please feel free to request further opinions at WP:GAR. Good luck, and I hope to see this article back at GAN very soon. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 15:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Peer Review (March 2008)

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Mangalorean Catholics

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because this article may contain errors


Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 15:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments:

  • Avoid POV language unless it is in a direct quote, example from the lead: Astonishingly half of them don't even reside in Mangalore, but still are extravagantly bonded to Mangalore culturally as well as traditionally. Both "Astonishingly" and "extravagantly" seem very POV here - see WP:NPOV. Also many places would not consider the 15th century to be "very recent" - why not just say their history dates to the 15th century and leave it at that. There are many other examples of this kind of language throughout the article that need to be cleaned up.
  • The lead should be a summary of the entire article - my rule of thumb is that if there is a section on a topic, it should be mentioned in the lead. Also all items in the lead should also be in the article - see WP:LEAD
  • Origins section-
    • Hard to see how a Catholic group from the 15th century AD traces its origins to 1000 BC - perhaps start by explaining Konkani and trace its roots to 1000 BC, then bring in other history leading up to 15th century and on to the present.
    • There is no real connection made between the first and second paragraphs in this section - the second seems to be the one with the relevant information (actually about Mangalorean Catholics), but it is completely unsourced.
  • History section - hard to see how this differes from Origins section. I have never seen a "This section is based on..." banner - please cite in the normal way with <ref> tags and give page numbers in the book. I also think the history section could be broken up into subsections (perhaps Origins could be merged as the first subsection).
  • Need references for all information - see example in Origins above or Names.
    • Need to make sure the refs cited meet WP:RS - one example I noticed was at least one cite to YouTube, which is not a reliable source.
    • Many of the references seem to be from Mangalorean Catholic groups' websites - third party sources are preferred and in some cases required.
    • I have never seen Notes and Bibliography as tables - please put them into regular formats (see {{cite book}} for ezample).

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 16:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Kensplanet

  • Avoid POV language unless it is in a direct quote, example from the lead: Astonishingly half of them don't even reside in Mangalore, but still are extravagantly bonded to Mangalore culturally as well as traditionally. Both "Astonishingly" and "extravagantly" seem very POV here - see WP:NPOV.
  • Done. The sentence Astonishingly half of them don't even reside in Mangalore, but still are extravagantly bonded to Mangalore culturally as well as traditionally. has been deleted.
  • Also many places would not consider the 15th century to be "very recent" - why not just say their history dates to the 15th century and leave it at that.
  • Done.
  • Old sentence: The history and existence of Mangalorean Catholics in Mangalore is very recent, just dating back to the 15th century.
  • New sentence: The history and existence of Mangalorean Catholics in Mangalore dates back to the 15th century.
  • There are many other examples of this kind of language throughout the article that need to be cleaned up.
  • Comment. I'll clean that up.
  • The lead should be a summary of the entire article - my rule of thumb is that if there is a section on a topic, it should be mentioned in the lead. Also all items in the lead should also be in the article - see WP:LEAD
  • Comment. I have taken a sentence from each and every section.

*Origins section-

    • Hard to see how a Catholic group from the 15th century AD traces its origins to 1000 BC - perhaps start by explaining Konkani and trace its roots to 1000 BC, then bring in other history leading up to 15th century and on to the present.
    • There is no real connection made between the first and second paragraphs in this section - the second seems to be the one with the relevant information (actually about Mangalorean Catholics), but it is completely unsourced.
  • History section - hard to see how this differes from Origins section. I have never seen a "This section is based on..." banner - please cite in the normal way with <ref> tags and give page numbers in the book. I also think the history section could be broken up into subsections (perhaps Origins could be merged as the first subsection).
  • Comment. This will require some work and i am working on it.
  • Need references for all information - see example in Origins above or Names.
  • Comment. I'll provide more references from the Web.
    • Need to make sure the refs cited meet WP:RS - one example I noticed was at least one cite to YouTube, which is not a reliable source.
  • Done. Youtube references have been deleted. Hereafter, only reliable sources will be added.
    • Many of the references seem to be from Mangalorean Catholic groups' websites - third party sources are preferred and in some cases required.
  • Comment. As you have rightly said, third party sources are required.
    • I have never seen Notes and Bibliography as tables - please put them into regular formats (see {{cite book}} for ezample).
  • Done. It is now in the normal standard format.

Peer Review (August — September, 2008)

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Mangalorean Catholics

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Previous peer review
Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because this article had failed GAN last time. Suggestions to elevate its status to GA will be very much helpful.

Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 12:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments: Looks much improved since the last time I read it, but agree it is not yet to GA. Briefly, here are some suggestions for improvement. If you want more comments, please ask here.

  • Biggest problem is the need for a copyedit - while WP:LOCE is dead (alas), you can ask for help at WP:PRV. I would try and address some of the other issues below first though.
  • The lead does not seem to summarize the article - for example, much of the culture section does not seem to be in the lead. See WP:LEAD Also provide context in several places, so in the lead the date of Tippu Sultan is not given
  • There are other places to provide context for the reader - I would expalin in some way who Joachim Alva is in the Infobox caption, for example. See WP:PCR
  • Some places need to have better logical flow / clearer connections made. For example, I am still not clear about the connection between the Pre-migration and Migration eras - I know much of the early records were lost, but what are the most common theories? Were there small numbers of catholics before the migration?
  • Footnotes need to be in order, so fix things like Out of the total 396,672 people living in Mangalore, the Christian population was 10,877.[13][25][26][15]
  • Perhaps add dates to Notable Mangalorean Catholics for context?

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Kensplanet to Ruhrfisch's review

  • Biggest problem is the need for a copyedit - while WP:LOCE is dead (alas), you can ask for help at WP:PRV. I would try and address some of the other issues below first though.
  • Some places need to have better logical flow / clearer connections made. For example, I am still not clear about the connection between the Pre-migration and Migration eras - I know much of the early records were lost, but what are the most common theories? Were there small numbers of catholics before the migration?
    • Not sure what you are tring to say here. The pre-migration subsection recounts the details before the migration and the post after that. All records of an early existence of Christians in Mangalore were lost at the time of their deportation by Tippu Sultan in 1784. Hence, it is unknown when exactly Christianity was introduced in Mangalore, but it is possible that Syrian Christians, who were converted to Christianity by St Thomas in 52 CE, settled in Mangalore as they did in Kerala, a region south of Mangalore- These sentences clearly state the common theories. And later on, due to weak Portuguese evangelization, there were Catholics before migration.
  • If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article)

Comments by Ravichandar

First of all, I wish to appreciate the excellent work that has been put forth towards the improvement of the article. The maps on population distribution, migration, etc. are really good. Others might be having different views, but I've jotted down what I feel

  • The section on history is larger when compared to other sections. I wouldn't say disproportionate for if I did I would be exaggerating things. Anyhow, I feel that the section is comparitively bigger.
  • Please add more pictures of Mangalorean Catholics. (A Mangalorean Catholic wedding photo, or some prominent member of the community) The only image of a Mangalorean Catholic appears to be in the infobox.

Thanks-RavichandarMy coffee shop 23:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply by Kensplanet to Ravichandar's review

  • The section on history is larger when compared to other sections. I wouldn't say disproportionate for if I did I would be exaggerating things. Anyhow, I feel that the section is comparitively bigger.
    • Yes, I'll fix that. History and Culture sections should be huge for ethnic group articles.
  • Please add more pictures of Mangalorean Catholics. (A Mangalorean Catholic wedding photo, or some prominent member of the community) The only image of a Mangalorean Catholic appears to be in the infobox.

Dineshkannambadi comments The lead, IMO, sould contain only info about their migration from Goa, culture, language, cuisine, customs, demographic distribution etc. The following sentences seem out of place.

  • The sentence in the lead, Portuguese shipping arrived in Mangalore in 1526, and Catholic missionary activities began around 1534... suddently takes the reader away from the topic of Mangalorean Catholics. Seems the sentence belongs elsewhere, in the history section perhaps?
  • The sentence about the 15 year imprisonment of Catholics by Tippu also should not be in the lead, but rather only in the history section, despite its historical importance to the Mangalore Catholics.
  • The sentence about their entering the record books for singing 40 hours, again, seems out of place and should be under society/music (or equivalent) subsection.

More later.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please clarify who Alan Machado Prabhu is.
    • Alan Machado Prabhu has written a book Sarasvati's Children: A History of the Mangalorean Christians. He has done a tremendous research on the history of Mangalorean Catholics there. Hence, his research is considered very much reliable. Anyway, I'll try to add more and more context to the text. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 15:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This sentence comes off as contradictory. In 1534, Mangalore was placed under the ecclesiastic jurisdiction of the Bishop of Goa. Missionaries soon arrived and gained converts. The number of local converts in Mangalore slowly increased.[6] During the mid 15th century, the Portuguese were unsuccessful in gaining converts in Mangalore because of resistance from the Vijayanagara ruler..'. You may want to say the number of converts increased, although slowly, because of resistance from Vijayanagara rulers...
  • There are some sentnces that are very lengthy. Please break up for better readability.
  • Try not to use too many "Thus", "Hence".

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • The first paragraph of "post migration era" section is totally uncited. Please provide book citations from reliable sources in this section. As the section mentions religious persecution, it will surely come under the scanner in later reviews. If the info is already available in the books by Natan, Bowring etc, just add more citations to the fist para.
  • The template in the lead says the population of Mangalore Catholics is some 350,000 thousand, but "Mangalore" is linked to Tulu Nadu and Mangalore itself has a population of less than 400,000. All this is very confusing to a non-Karnataka reader.

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 17:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Throughout the article, the Mangalore term refers to Tulu Nadu. Some may be confused that Mangalore here refers to Mangalore City. But that is not so. It has already been clarified in the Ethnic identity section that the Mangalore which we are speaking of are the Dakshina Kannada and Udupi districts, and not Mangalore city alone. One suggestion is we can put Tulu Nadu instead of Mangalore there in the Infobox, but then Tulu Nadu has no official status. So its better to put Mangalore since it goes with the name Mangalorean Catholics. One more suggestion maybe let's put Dakshina Kannada and Udupi there, but then it would be difficult to find the no of Catholics for each district. So, a compromise has to be made inspite of the confusion. Kensplanet (talk) 14:11, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply by Kensplanet to Dineshkannambadi's review

  • Thankyou for your excellent comments and observations.
  • The sentence in the lead, Portuguese shipping arrived in Mangalore in 1526, and Catholic missionary activities began around 1534... suddently takes the reader away from the topic of Mangalorean Catholics. Seems the sentence belongs elsewhere, in the history section perhaps?
    • Will remove it soon.
  • The sentence about the 15 year imprisonment of Catholics by Tippu also should not be in the lead, but rather only in the history section, despite its historical importance to the Mangalore Catholics.
    • Well, I don't find any reason why this sentence should not appear in the lead. Out of the 60,000 captured Christians, only 10,000 could make it out. A very significant point in their history. Anyway, why do you say so?
      • The topic suddenty jumps from their migration to persecuton by Tippu. If you could create a seperate small para which discusses their most cherished moment in history to date, then you could continue to add their most sorrowful memory also. I have read books too, which describe Tippu's cruelty towards Christians in coastal Karnataka and his entirely different attitude towards non-muslims in the Mysore region, perhaps a well played out political balance.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Sadly, the community didn't have any cherised memory. Throughout history, they had to live in constant fear for their lives since they were Christians. Later on Tippu destroyed atleast 85% of the entire community. Anyway, I'll try to work on it. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 15:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sentence about their entering the record books for singing 40 hours, again, seems out of place and should be under society/music (or equivalent) subsection.
    • Removed this sentence.

In case you would like me to peer review your article or any other article, then please do inform me. Kensplanet (talk) 10:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copyeditor's thoughts

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I made many small changes to improve prose flow, reduce redundancy, fix punctuation, and the like, and I removed the date autoformatting from the main text. I read the peer review before I started, and it includes several good suggestions not covered by this copyedit. After you make the changes suggested by the peer reviewer, another copyedit by an entirely different editor would move you in the direction of GA. I have a couple of other thoughts. Does the father of the bridegroom give away the bride? Or is it the father or guardian of the bride? (See "Traditions and festivals".) Why is Joachim Alva in the infobox? His importance does not seem to be stressed in the text. The table of names lists seven for men and only one for women. Since the population is probably split about 1 to 1, the 7 to 1 ratio in the table looks like POV. I might suggest four of each. Finetooth (talk) 04:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

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  • This sentence is confusing-Of the 60,000 Mangalorean Catholics taken captive, only 11,000 made it out alive as Christians. British general Arthur Wellesley helped 10,000 of them return to Mangalore and resettle on their lands. According to British Government records, 20,000 died on the march to Srirangapatna, and 21,000 women and 9,000 men were converted to Islam. Did the 21,000 women and 9000 men who were converted, die after conversion?
No, they didn't die. They were allowed to practise Islam and settle there. Their descendants are even found today. Kensplanet (talk) 14:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed alive. So the new sentence reads as
Of the 60,000 Mangalorean Catholics taken captive, only 11,000 made it out alive as Christians.
Of the 60,000 Mangalorean Catholics taken captive, only 11,000 made it out alive as Christians.
  • I dont think you should discuss recent events in this article because a few months from now, it wont be recent anymore.Recent events related to Mangalorean Catholics that took place in Mangalore, and made national newspaper headlines were the occasional attacks on Christian churches in September 2008.
Removed the word Recent. Kensplanet (talk) 14:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you should create a seperate paragraph titled "Persecution of Mangalorean Catholics" instead of scattering the issue over various parts of the article. This way, you can consolidate the section with suitable citations.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But these are not pesecutions. These are just attacks by some foolish vested interests. These cannot be compared with Tippu's persecutions. Kensplanet (talk) 15:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The architecture of Mangalorean Catholics has strong Mangalorean, Italian, and Portuguese influences. Their Mangalore tiles are considered to be the most notable contribution to the world. Does this sentence mean that Mangalorean catholics discovered the making of Mangalorean tiles? Are there any notable architects from the community who pioneered the making of these tiles? Any such info would help throw more light on the subject.
Well, I am not sure who introduced Mangalore tiles. Perhaps it may be the Germans or Mangalorean Catholics. But however, the first Indian tile factory, which produced Mangalore tiles, the Albuquerque tile factory was started in Mangalore by Pascal Albuquerque, a Mangalorean Catholic, at Pane mangalore in 1868. Kensplanet (talk) 15:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The usage of several web pages such as[7] will be questioned if this article goes for review. Refrain from using too many web sources, and if you do, make sure the sources references reliable books. A few web sources is ok, if it only strengthens existing book citations or cites topics that are non-controversial. Some of the web links also appear broken.

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 01:11, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Mangalorean.Com is basically an e-paper (newspaper). So it can be considered reliable for some news articles typically related to the city. You are right, it cannot be considered as a RS for contentious claims. I had already clarified that on WP:RSN during the Mangalore FAC. (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 17#Mangalorean.Com (http://mangalorean.com/index.php)). If you check the claims for which it it is cited, all are absolutely non-contentious claims. Those articles just give a coverage of the celebration of a festival by different organizations. Kensplanet (talk) 15:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 00:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been thinking about this for a long time, instead of an eminent personalities collage, why not have a copmosite of the following images:1) a roce ceremony 2) Monti fest celebration 3)3) a prminent mangalorean church 3) a traditional Mamglaorean wedding etc; basically images about the community life rather than eminent personalities. It will take some time time and effort collecting this photos(after contacting respecive owners) and putting them together in such a way that it does not become a vanity image. What do you think? --Deepak D'Souza 08:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It'll be very difficult to get images. We can try on cc 2.5 or 3.0 licensed blogs. But don't you think it'll replicate Culture. KensplanetTalkContributions 08:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ill try, although I cannot say how much time I will take.What we can do is contact friends or relatives who may have photos, or make a request on online groups for such images and then ask them to grant it on a GFDL license.We can also ask websites such as daijiworld and mangalorean.com. The images should be such that they do not feature the persons prominently(for privacy as well as context issues). I dont think it will replicate the culture section, the photos will have to be collaged together properly into a single image. Rather it will become a sort of "snapshot" of community life--Deepak D'Souza 09:22, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's do it. KensplanetTalkContributions 10:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Be sure that it is either CC licensed or public domain images. The Infobox Image can only have free images. Be sure the author of the Image allows us to modify the work as per our requirements. If the author doesn't allow us to modify the work, then it falls in the non-free blanket. Hence, cannot be put in the Infobox. Thanks, KensplanetTalkContributions 13:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mangalorean v/s Canara Associations

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Regarding this edit. I dont think it is neccesary to exclude " Kanara Catholic Association(s)" just because they call themselves Kanara CA and not Mangalore CA. From personal experience I can say that these are heavily dominated by Mangaloreans if not totally Mangalorean. Although Kanara also contains North Kanara district, and Belgaum also has a Konkani catholic population the number of Catholics there is small as compared to Mangaloreans. In cities like Mumbai they have seperate associations, in cities where they do not have sufficient numbers they ususally become members of Kanara associations. --Deepak D'Souza 08:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. I was a bit bothered that reviewers don't feel that there are many North Canarites in the association. Hence, it is not very much unique to the Mangalorean Catholic community. That's for sure, that the KCA is dominated by 95%+ Mangalorean Catholics. I have reverted my edit. Thanks, KensplanetTalkContributions 08:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When you say ethnic identity you either give a brief summary of the community at the top or only write the ethnic identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.11.242 (talk) 08:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mangalore to South Canara

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I have replaced Mangalore with South Canara throughout the article. Mangalore was initially used to represent the South Canara district. However, no such term as Mangalore was ever used officially to represent South Canara and hence violates WP:OR policies. Whereas South Canara was the official name of the region. Any suggestions are welcomed. KensplanetTalkContributions 18:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Montage

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Can Image:Mangalorean Catholic Ros.jpg serve as a candidate for the Infobox Montage. Any suggestions. KensplanetTalkContributions 11:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review2

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Mangalorean Catholics/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I will reviewing the article. Full review in a day or 2.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 16:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Overall, an almost good article but few big faults:

It says "Ref. MV KAMATH Publication: indianfo.com" The relaiblity of indianfo.com is questioned. A direct book/newspaper ref from M.V. Kamath would be definitely considered RS.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 04:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This site had already been proved reliable on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 18#Daijiworld.Com (http://www.daijiworld.com/). It was carefully analyzed before adding. KensplanetTalkContributions 18:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still doubt http://www.daijiworld.com/home.asp. It just has two offices, one at Mangalore and another at Udupi. Not an established national or local printed newspaper. "For information about academic topics, such as physics or ancient history, scholarly sources are preferred over news stories. Newspapers tend to misrepresent results, leaving out crucial details and reporting discoveries out of context. For example, news reports often fail to adequately report methodology, errors, risks, and costs associated with a new scientific result or medical treatment." Here, references are used for the history part. Historians or religious scholars or Indologists will be preferred. Though I'll leave these out for other wiki-editors to decide for themselves.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 04:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Disagree: The population of the community doesn't cross even a million. Perhaps, we don't have enough sources for the community. Since, this is a Mangalore based site, this site covers more details of the Mangalorean Catholic community than any national newspaper can cover. For example, the research by Cricinfo can be considered 100% reliable for cricket. But can it;s research be considered reliable for Football, Hockey. Well, the answer is No. Similarly, Daijiworld's research can be considered very much reliable for Mangalore related topics. At the same time, it's research on Bengali people's history or any other such thing may be questioned. But as far as this page is concerned, this site is absolutely reliable. KensplanetTalkContributions 15:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This site is also used in the Mangalore article, a featured article and this was accepted there as a RS for contentious claims during the FAC. KensplanetTalkContributions 15:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Contributions 18:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anything posted on yahoo groups can be considered RS. I could not read an article at http://www.indiacatholic.com/goaandmangolorean.htm. A direct reference though can be considered RS. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 04:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have modified it. See if it works. KensplanetTalkContributions 15:37, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Redtigerxyz (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Population Stats need references.
  • "According to Michael Lobo, an Indian genealogist, the Mangalorean Catholic community has the distinction of being the only community in the world to possess its own genealogical encyclopaedia. This genealogical Encyclopaedia, currently exceeding 6000 pages, is probably the only encyclopedia of its kind in existence." Lobo's views promote his own book - the Encyclopaedia,, this is not NEutral.

--Redtigerxyz (talk) 17:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

project templates

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kensplanet, you've removed project templates..why??

i added those templates because,in infobox,it says Regions with significant populations--> south canara(Kar) & mumbai(Mah) Kannadiga Warrior (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After a careful analysis, I have readded the Karnataka Wikiproject. But not Maharashtra. Having a significant population in a specific region is not a sufficient criteria for inclusion. We look for how can the Wikiproject help the article. Thanks, KensplanetTalkContributions 05:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mangalorean Goans

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I moved the page to Mangalorean Goans because in this newspaper it clearly states that the community's name is Mangalorean Goans and not Mangalorean Catholics.--Sanfytalk 15:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

O, So you have found a new way of vandalizing the article. looks like you are not going to budge. Let's see your fate at WP:ANI. KensplanetTC 16:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review Jan09

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GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Mangalorean Catholics/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.


Pre-review questions

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Hello, My name is Dave. I have volunteered to review this article. I did so as I saw this has been in the queue for a while and thought this would be a good chance to learn. I know very little about Indian subcultures or the Roman Catholic church. I would still very much like to review this article, however I have some concerns that may force me to fail the Good Article Nomination outright. Can someone who has followed this article please address the following:

  1. There was move-warring on this page as recent as 6 days ago. While the article seems relatively stable for the last 6 days, has this dispute been resolved to the point that there is no danger of the move war reoccuring? Frankly, I find this juvenile (as are most move wars). There is no reason why the one article title can't re-direct to the other, with the resulting page listing both titles.
    There was no dispute at all. An editor just moved the article without discussing and without any reason or a silly reason. Can be considered Page Move vandalism. I even booked the User Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive507#Mangalorean Catholics. Vandalism should never be treated seriously. KensplanetTC 15:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are both sides in agreement that the current title is acceptable? Dave (talk) 20:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. KensplanetTC 06:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. This very page had a review of sorts, but was blanked, with no explanation. What happened here?
    The review was done by an User, who happens to be a significant contributor of the article. As per GA rules, we cannot have significant contributors reviewing the article. They definitely will pass the article. He was new and didn't know this rule. The review had to be blanked, because it was invalid. KensplanetTC 15:15, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Accepted. In the future, I would suggest leaving a message stating up front this happened, as the situation looked very suspicious. The ideal situation would be for the reviewer and nominator to leave a note agreeing that another reviewer is required, as the original reviewer was unaware of procedure.Dave (talk) 20:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I myself didn't know. Will surely do it next time. KensplanetTC 06:36, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regards, Dave (talk) 03:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GA Criteria

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GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

I will place the nomination on hold. This is mostly a good article, however some minor issues, most important is to fix the dead links. Once fixed, I'll happily pass this article.

  1. Is it well written?
    A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:
    • "But when they betrayed Hyder, he directed his anger toward the Mangalorean Catholics, since they had been converted to Christianity by the Portuguese." Is "they" referring to English or Portuguese?
    • Same for "Their captivity at Srirangapatna, which began on 24 February 1784 and ended on 4 May 1799, remains the most disconsolate memory in their history." The second "their" is OK, provided the first is explained. The WP:Lead also uses the word their a few to many times. • Their Mangalore tiles and contributions to Konkani literature are well known. This statement contains WP:Peacock terms and should be re-written.
    I have copyedited the Lead. In case you would like more modifications, Please tell me.
    *It's ok now Dave (talk) 06:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
  2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
    A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:
    Some sentences could use references at the end of them (even if it's repeating a reference for another sentence in the same paragraph. Specifically, I'm referring to the last paragraph of "Migration era" section.
    Added at references at some places in that section
    B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):
    Sources look reliable. Some minor concerns with the site RichardCrasta.com, but I think is ok. However, their are two dead links on this page [8]. These should be fixed, either find an archive of this citation or find a new reference. Dave (talk) 06:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Modern literature is diverse and includes themes such as Indian Politics in books like What Ails the Socialists by George Fernandes, historical awakening, in books such as Sarasvati's Children: A History of the Mangalorean Christians by Alan Machado Prabhu, and sexual desires, in The Revised Kama Sutra: A Novel of Colonialism and Desire by Richard Crasta - RichardCrasta.Com is used to cite the claim in Bold. We cannot have any better source that the author Richard Crasta's own website which has lots and lots of reliable details about his book The Revised Kama Sutra: A Novel of Colonialism. Great source for those interested in Further reading. Maybe source not reliable for other claims; but surely reliable for his own book.
    Dead link which appears in External links section removed.
    The next dead REF was the Page of the book which was availaible online. The Citation stays since the page will always be present in the book. KensplanetTC 06:59, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    C. It contains no original research:
    D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:
    B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
    I am a little concerned about the Notable People, I've seen sections like this explode into a mess. However, in the current state this is ok.
    It guarantee you it won't exceed. We will stick to only 10 people most notable. It is required to recognize the community, which many people may not know.
  4. Is it neutral?
    It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
  5. Is it stable?
    It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
    See above sections, stability is a concern. Article will not necessarily fail because of the move war, but some assurance needs to be given that the issue is resolved before this can pass.
  6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    All images have valid free use or fair use tags. However as a friendly suggestion, I would suggest looking at File:JamalabadFortPassage.jpg where the image has been tagged to categorization issues. - Done
    B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    The article is very well written. Only some minor changes need to be made. Fix them and I'll happily promote this article.


Friendly suggestions

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These have no bearing on weather the article passes GA or not, just my comments and advise for improving the article...

  • There are some sections that IMO border on WP:OR and I would advise to reword. For example "A few of them might have migrated to South Canara.[15] But no concrete evidence has yet been found that there were any permanent settlements of Christians in South Canara before the 16th century." In this case, these statements are sourced, so it is ok to say them. However, the way they are written could imply they are original research. For example, I'd change to change the st, "Historian X believes a few of them may have migrated" and "Historian X has found no evidence that their were permanent settlements" etc.

Dave (talk) 05:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's no Original research involved here. I have modified and added the names of Historians. KensplanetTC 15:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are some WP:Peacock terms, such as "skilled cultivators"
  • The Sultan of Bijapur attacked Goa in 1571 and ended Portuguese influence in Goa. -> maybe say "influence in the region". I'd avoid using the same word twice in a sentence.
    • Done
  • "New Testament Biblical canons" I would suggest to de-link Biblical. The reason is that per WP:LINK, two consecutive words should not link to different articles, to avoid confusing people who may think it is one link. However, I'm a little confused. While the MOS says this, I see this guideline routinely ignored, including on many Featured Articles and even articles featured on the main page. So I won't hold this against you if you keep the links. =-) Dave (talk) 05:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done
  • "In the olden days" – Be more specific, if you can, olden days is 50 years ago, 200 years ago???
    • Done

I have finished my review. A mostly well written article, only some minor changes. Congratulations on a job well done, I can tell the contributors have worked hard on this article.Dave (talk) 06:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Passing GA

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With the improvements I now feel this article passes the GA criteria. I would caution all editors to remember the policies on Article Ownership and assume good faith. There are some comments above that do concern me, and I think a re-read of these policies may be in order. Dave (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures of Actresses in InfoBox

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Why are there pictures of two actresses in the Mangalorean Catholics Infobox? They're not part of the hierarchy, and not official representatives. It would be like having a picture of Mel Gibson on top of the Roman Catholic article. Wouldn't it be better to have a more "official" picture or representation there? Even a generic Christian symbol would seem better. Any thoughts? --anietor (talk) 23:28, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hearing no objections, I will change the images, since this isn't an article about famous Mangaloreans. --anietor (talk) 23:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No response doesn't mean No objections. This is not a very popular page. You have to gain consensus. You should have tried Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism. KensplanetTC 05:04, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is an article about Mangalorean Catholics - the people, NOT just their religion. See FA Tamil people, the infobox has images of people Not a Om. --Redtigerxyz Talk 05:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mangalorean Catholicism is not a seperate branch of Christianity. This article is about an ethnic group. Please note Roman Catholic is not an ethnic group. Roman Catholics in France speak French. Roman Catholics in Ireland speak English. Roman Catholics in Spain speak Spanish. So different regions, different cultures and languages. So, you cannot call Roman Catholic as an ethnic group. So Mel Gibson cannot represent Roman Catholics. However, Mangalorean Catholics speak a common language and have a common culture. They can be called as an ethnic group. KensplanetTC 06:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is a standard across all Ethnic group articles to have Images of Notable personalities. You can check, English people, Irish people, French Canadians, or any ethnic group article. All have images of notable personalities. Same has to be followed here. It's a standard KensplanetTC 06:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image use

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Some Mangalorean Catholic brides also wear a white sari during the Nuptial Blessing in Church
Can we use this img in the Costumes section?--Sanfytalk 13:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the Image. But it cannot be added. There are several reasons.....
Reason 1: Although Commons allows CC licensed images to be uploaded, but there's also something like personality infringement rights. Apart from Flickr, you also have to request permission from the 3 people standing there. The permission should clearly state that they have no problem with the Image being used for Wikipedia. This has to be done since all our Images are free and can be used by anyone. Ofcourse, this may not be valid for notable personalities.
Reason 2: It's not neutral. The Image gives the reader the feeling that all Mangalorean Catholic brides wear white sarees, which is surely not the case. For example, in a New York City article, you cannot have the Image of a slum, with the caption saying that "A very small percentage of poor people live in Slums." This gives the reader a feeling that NYC is a poor city. All know that NYC is one of the richest cities of the world.
Reason 3: It's not a Mangalorean Catholic wedding. It's an Indian wedding, which by no means, can be assumed as a M'lorean Catholic one. We must stick only and only with M'lorean Catholic wedding Images. No assumptions, approximations allowed. It just enhances the encyclopaedability of the article. Anyway, is it a Mangalorean Catholic wedding? KensplanetTC 14:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. No assumptions on my side, pls read Faces of Goa, p.360. The authors says that Mangalorean Catholic brides wear a white sari on their wedding. Confusion? Yes I too am confused that it could be a Goan Catholic or Mayali Catholic wedding as the family has "Saraswati's Children" oriented features.--Sanfytalk 14:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well if the author says then it has to be true, since Larsen is an expert on such topics. It may perhaps be practised by some traditional people. The assumption was not that the bride wears the white saree; the assumption was that the 3 people are M'lorean Catholics. Yes, they have strong Catholic features. I have 1000s of such images of weddings. But I refuse to upload them on Commons just because I don't have the necessary permission to do so. KensplanetTC 15:02, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Secular Citizen

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What makes the Secular citizen a reliable source? If its reliability cannot be proved, it needs to be removed from the article. 115.184.119.95 (talk) 16:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Too.. length

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The article has become too. lengthy. The History section has become too... lengthy. I'll try to condense it. Please help me in doing so. 115.184.119.95 (talk) 16:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please refrain from adding Kannada script

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Please do not add Kannada script here. Please check Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), 4th para. I'll quote it for you, The native spelling of a name should generally be included in the first line of the article, with a transliteration if the Anglicization isn't identical.
Neither Konkani can be represented in Roman script properly, nor can it be in Kannada script properly. These are not the native and original scripts for writing Konkani —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.184.97.18 (talk) 17:45, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There has never been a uniform script for Konkani. It has always varied depending on the place and people. Anyway, thanks for pointing that out. Joyson Noel Holla at me 17:52, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding other featured articles, let us consider Pashtun people. I can see something like, Pashtuns (Pashto: پښتون Paṣ̌tun, Pax̌tun. You might ask why is the Arabic script پښتون required, when the English script is already present. The reason being, the way people pronounce پښتون may not always be how the way people pronounce Paṣ̌tun, Pax̌tun. Romanization is never cent percent accurate, but is very close to the orginal pronounciation. However, پښتون is 100% accurate. That's the reason to maintain the accuracy of the article and pronounciation, native scripts are always used. But in our case, Kannada is not the native script of Konkani, and is quite possible that some Konkani sounds may not be accurately represented by Kannada script. So, generally speaking, addition of Kannada script doesn't add any accuracy to the page, as it itself cannot represent many Konkani sounds. It cannot offer anything more what Anglicization offers, and hence should be avoided as some browsers may have problems displaying the same. 115.184.40.33 (talk) 18:20, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There have been several discussions on the village pump regarding this, with no clear consensus. Check Wikipedia:Vernacular scripts,

[9], [10]. 115.184.40.33 (talk) 18:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Milagres church

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The image of the Milagres church in this article is of the wrong Milagres church, i.e, the one in Kallianpur, Udupi. Either change the caption, or replace it with the image of the Mangalore Milagres church. 46.184.128.40 (talk) 09:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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