Talk:Maman a tort/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cavie78 (talk) 16:11, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Currently reviewing article, will leave comments below. Cavie78 (talk) 16:12, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Cavie78 for your great work. I am the main (in fact the only) contributor on this article, and as you can see, English is not my native language (I'm French), and thus it's not easy for me to build a good article. I need time to fix what is wrong in this page. I hope you'll be patient with me! Regards, --Europe22 (talk) 16:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. On the whole though it seems to be a pretty decent article and not too far off GA. I'm still making my way through and will try and post the rest of my concerns later today. Cavie78 (talk) 16:48, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good work Europe22, am now happy to promote! I'm a bit concerned about the "Devant-soi" refs (see below) but I think they're good enough for GA. The 'Official release' table seems a bit non-standard but, again, I don't think it's a major issue at GA. Cavie78 (talk) 11:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): (MoS):
Quite a few concerns with prose are detailed below, I have particular issue with several sentences whose meaning is unclear.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): (citations to reliable sources): (OR):
Couple of minor concerns with the refs are listed below.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Hi Europe22, I have now finished my review - sorry for the length of time this has taken, I've been ill for the past couple of days. I've listed my concerns below and have placed the article on hold. Where translation issues are a problem would you be able to provide the relevant bit of French text below (as you have already done for some of the earlier sections) so we can discuss and come to consensus about how to change? My French isn't very good but I work with several French speakers so can ask their advice. Cavie78 (talk) 16:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cavie78! Again, thank you for all your help, and for all your comments. I hope you're well now. For my part, I'm currently rather busy in my life, but I'll try to find time to correct errors, particularly translation issues. Sincerely, --Europe22 (talk) 23:43, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

General

References should come after a mark of punctuation such as a comma or full stop. The following refs needed moving:
Ref 17 in the 'Release' section

Ref 28 in 'Lyrics and music'

The three refs 35, 36 and 37 at the end of 'Lyrics and music'

Ref 48 in 'Music Video: Reviews'

Refs 14 and 57 in 'Critical reception'

Ref 59 in 'Critical reception' Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:45, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No need for information about the song's availability as a download in the infobox Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion the header for the infobox should simply be 'Maman a tort' Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:46, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Overlinking is a problem throughout the article. There is no need to link to common words such as 'nurse', 'sexuality', 'melody', 'demonstration' etc. Similarly there is no need to link to countries (see 'Release' section) Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The links to http://www.devant-soi.com/ seem to mostly go to scans of magazine articles, could you just have references to the original magazines?

Are you saying it would be better to remove "Devant-soi" as publisher in the references ? (I don't know who is the publisher of these magazines) --Europe22 (talk) 17:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think they'll do for now but I'm pretty sure they will need changing if you ever go for FA. Cavie78 (talk) 11:19, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

"...the beginning of her collaboration with her long-time composer, Laurent Boutonnat, who worked with her on her next songs and albums." I don't think the last part of the sentence needs to be there - it's implied when you state that it was the beginning of Farmer's collaboration with Boutonnat. Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Written by Jérôme Dahan who also participated in the composing..." You should make it clearer that Dahan wrote the lyrics, would suggest something like "With lyrics by Jérôme Dahan, who also helped compose the song with Boutonnat, the song was..." Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"...seem to deal with a lesbian love, and thus is often classified as a song with an LGBT theme; similarly, the video..." I think the bit in bold is redundant - you've already stated that the song's lyrics deal with a lesbian theme. Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"However, the song allowed Farmer to launch her singing career and to give a general idea of what will characterize her artistic style." This needs rewording, would suggest "The song did, however, allow Farmer to launch her singing career and establish her particular artistic style." Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Background and writing

"In December 1983, Jerôme Dahan and Laurent Boutonnat, two friends, composed a simple rhyme with rather naughty words. Indeed, the song, called "Maman a tort", is about lesbian love between a girl committed to a mental hospital and her nurse." "rather naughty words" isn't very encyclopaedic, would suggest merging these two sentences to read ""In December 1983, Jerôme Dahan and Laurent Boutonnat, two friends, composed a song called "Maman a tort", about lesbian love between a girl committed to a mental hospital and her nurse." Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:32, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"A young girl aged 15–16 was first chosen before being rejected, because she was too young to sing ambiguous lyrics." Would suggest changing to the following for clarity: "A young girl aged 15–16 was initially chosen to perform the song, before being rejected because she was too young to sing its sexually ambiguous lyrics. Done --Europe22 (talk) 16:34, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"...and that they chose her before she sang." You should clarify what you mean here - that they thought she seemed like an ideal person to record the track?

Yes. -- Europe22 (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Done[reply]

"Gautier then took the pseudonym of Farmer, as a tribute to actress Frances Farmer." Presumably after Dahan and Boutonnat decided they wanted to work with her?

Yes. --Europe22 (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Done[reply]

"According to Jean-Claude Déquéant, Farmer showed a very limited enthusiasm during the recording trials and declared: "The voice was surprisingly present and she laughed after each shot when listening". This doesn't seem to make sense, you say that Farmer was not enthusiastic during recording then state that her voice was "surprisingly present" and that she laughed a lot. There are also some issues with translation here (which I can't help with as I don't have the book):
What is a "recording trial" Do you mean a demo recording?

In French: "les essais d'enregistrements" = trying to record a song, I don't know how to say this... --Europe22 (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure it means a demo recording. Cavie78 (talk) 15:03, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:36, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The voice was surprisingly present" I'm not sure what you mean here I'm afraid

In French: "la voix était étonnamment présente" = the fact that the voice of the singer was so highlighted that it was surprising, or something like this. --Europe22 (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I think we should probably leave it as it is. Cavie78 (talk) 15:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"after each shot" What is a "shot"? Do you mean a take? - Yes, it is the good word. Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"This probably did not look like something being very professional." Another translation issue: does the text support changing this to just "This probably did not look very professional."?

Yes.

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"However, for fear of censorship of the song or lack of potential, recording companies did not want to sign a contract with them, except RCA, which accepted. Indeed, Dahan said it was very difficult to find a recording company. To sign a contract and get a second appointment, Boutonnat and Dahan alleged that they had remixed the song, which was a deception. It was only at the third appointment, one year after the beginning of their efforts, that Francis Dacla gave them a contract with RCA." This section needs rewording, would suggest changing to "Initially Boutonnat and Dahan found it difficult to find a record company who would release the track, either because labels were worried about the song being censored due to the sexual nature of its lyrics or because they did not see any commercial potential in the track. In order to get a second appointment with RCA records the pair claimed they had remixed the song, even though they had not. Only after a third appointment with RCA did the label's Francis Dacla give them a contract." Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"A part of vinyl editions was given to Bertrand Le Page to promote the song in the media, and another part to the publisher Frédérick Leibovitz." I'm not sure what you're saying here. What is a "vinyl edition"? Are you talking about royalties? What roles do Bertrand Le Page and Frédérick Leibovitz have?

The exact quote in French: "On a dû donner une partie des éditions à Bertrand Lepage pour qu'il défende le titre auprès des médias, et une autre partie à l'éditeur Frédérick Leibovitz". I used the same wording as I didn't understand what this means... --Europe22 (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think they probably do mean royalties but I'm not entirely sure so it might be better to remove this sentence. Cavie78 (talk) 15:12, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"According to France Dimanche, this song saved Farmer from entering into a loveless marriage with a childhood friend." You need to expand a little here. Do you mean because of the fact that it lead to Farmer having a career as a singer?

After reading the magazine, I propose: "Indeed, the newspaper said through "Maman a tort", she began a singing career that she would have renounced if she had not been selected for the casting, and thus she would have been married a student of the École nationale d'administration for convenience reasons with whom she would have five children." But I'm pretty sure my wording is not very good... --Europe22 (talk) 19:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've now read the article myself and I would suggest adding the following after the first sentence. "Farmer had become disillusioned with showbusiness after struggling to get even tiny roles in commericals and had resolved to wed a childhood friend, a student of the École nationale d'administration, before she was selected to sing "Maman a tort"." Cavie78 (talk) 20:15, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Done --Europe22 (talk) 11:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Release

"The single was first released in March 1984, but passed unnoticed; then some months..." Would be better to say "The single was first released in France in March 1984, but failed to chart. Several months later..."

In France, the official chart published by the SNEP had not yet been created in March 1984, so I think we should find another wording. --Europe22 (talk) 17:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, sorry, I forgot about that! What about "The single was first released in France in March 1984, but was not commercially successful. Several months later..."

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"...it gained more success under the management of Bertrand Le Page, a famous artistic director." I think it would be better to mention that Bertrand Le Page is a famous artistic director in the 'Background and writing' section when he is first mentioned. I'm not clear of Bertrand Le Page's role here (see comment in previous section)

Ok, so if the the mention of Le Page in the previous section is removed I think you should leave this as it is. Cavie78 (talk) 15:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The song was much aired on radio" Think it would be better to say "The song was heavily played on French radio" (if this is what you mean?) Do you know the song's position on the French singles chart? Would be good to add here.

Yes, this is what I mean, but there is no chart position on the French Singles Chart, as official charts were created on 4 November 1984.

Done --Europe22 (talk) 23:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok Cavie78 (talk) 15:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In view of the song's success, Farmer recorded an English version of the single named "My Mum Is Wrong", which was made on an idea of Frédérick Leibovitz to win over the Anglophones." Would suggest rewording to "In view of the song's success, Frédérick Leibovitz suggested that Farmer record an English language version of the single named "My Mum Is Wrong", in an effort to win over a wider audience." Done --Europe22 (talk) 23:58, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"...being motivated by sympathy for Le Page." Why did F. R. David feel sorry for Le Page?

Sorry, I didn't use the good word (in French = "Sympathie")... Is "Liking" a better translation ? --Europe22 (talk) 17:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps "affection"?

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"...and it was scheduled to be released in Germany, Italy, Scandinavia and North America." Why didn't these releases go ahead?

Sorry, I don't know what you mean: is the fact that the single wasn't released in these courtries ? If yes, the reason is probably the lack of money, but I can't find a source that says this. --Europe22 (talk) 19:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I was asking why the song wasn't released there because you used the phrase "it was scheduled" which makes it sounds as though the release didn't happen. Your source states that the English version of the song was released in Germany, Italy and Scandinavia and that it was schedueled to be released in England and the United States - can you change to state this?

Done --Europe22 (talk) 11:19, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, the source says: "...the English version of "Maman a tort" which will be [in French, the tense used is the future] released in Germany, Italy and Scandinavia..." I don't know if the song was actually released in these countries, but at least, we know that it was scheduled. --Europe22 (talk) 11:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In 2003, a remix version was produced by DJ Joaquim Garraud, but was not included on the compilation RemixeS." Was the remix ever released if it doesn't appear on the album RemixeS?

No, the remix was never released. Can I add "and was eventually never released" ? --Europe22 (talk) 00:13, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would suggest "In 2003, a remix version was produced by DJ Joaquim Garraud for the compilation album RemixeS but was not released." Cavie78 (talk) 15:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics and music

"...and that the B-side contained the instrumental version, not another song, because of a lack of money. " Not sure this is needed - you've already stated this in the 'Release' section.

I removed.

Done --Europe22 (talk) 00:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

""Maman a tort" lays the foundations of the Farmer's universe. In fact, "all the future themes operated by the singer are present in germ in this production"." Would suggest losing the direct quote and rewording to ""Maman a tort" lays the foundation of Farmer's musical universe, including many themes dealt with by the singer in subsequent releases." Done --Europe22 (talk) 00:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"The rhythm is catchy, and the text, "dark and symbolic", describes the conflicts between a daughter and her mother, as the title suggests." What do you mean by "the text"? Do you mean the lyrics?

Yes, the lyrics.

Done --Europe22 (talk) 23:51, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've reworded the first bit of the last paragraph and removed part of the quote which was unnecessary. The quote itself has translation issues again thought I'm afraid. "It can happen to many children who are in hospitals and who have ultimately for mum only people who care for them and who are nurses. And these nurses feed these children, tuck them in bed, make them a kiss before they sleep, and therefore replace the mothers. So it is a little girl who tells her mother: I like the nurse".

The quote in French : "Ça peut arriver à beaucoup d'enfants qui sont dans des centres hospitaliers et qui n'ont finalement pour... j'allais dire pour maman... disons que les personnes qui s'occupent de ces enfants sont des infirmiers ou infirmières et elles donnent à manger à ces enfants, les bordent au lit, leur font un bisou avant de s'endormir donc prennent la place des mamans. Donc c'est une petite fille qui dit à sa maman : J'aime l'infirmière!" --Europe22 (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can change to this: "It can happen to many children who are in hospital [...] the nurses feed these children, tuck them into bed, kiss them before they sleep and therefore take the place of their mothers. So it is a little girl who tells her mother: I love the nurse."

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Music video

Link franc and euro Done --Europe22 (talk) 23:47, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"...then shows that of Farmer's mother." Would suggest changing to "then shows a picture of Farmer's mother." Done --Europe22 (talk) 23:46, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Another video was scheduled to replace the one that was censored." How was the video censored?

I removed this info. I checked the reference, and it appears that the censorship is not clearly stated in the source, just indirectly suggested.

Done -- Europe22 (talk) 17:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest changing the wording in the paragraph to "Another more ambitious and dramatic video had originally been planned by Boutonnat. Farmer would have been shown in a wheelchair pushed by a nun nurse, who she had feeling for. As the singer cannot understand this relationship, and faces the disapproval of her mother because of it, Farmer decides to commit suicide by throwing herself from the top of a cliff." Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another translation issue with this quote "Farmer deplored the censorship, saying: "I don't know if it was at the level of understanding, but the text has shocked many people. I find it pretty stupid. Jacques Dutronc said "Merde in France" and everyone went into ecstasies. As for me, I simply say that I enjoyed impolite pleasures".

The quote in French: "Je ne sais pas si c'est au niveau de la compréhension, mais le texte a choqué quelques personnes. Je trouve ça assez stupide d'ailleurs. Jacques Dutronc dit bien: "Merde in France" et tout le monde s'extasie. Moi je me suis contenté de dire que j'aimais les plaisirs impolis". --Europe22 (talk) 17:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can say: "Farmer deplored the censorship, saying: "[it] has shocked many people. I find it pretty stupid. Jacques Dutronc said "Merde in France" and everyone went into raptures. As for me, I simply say that I enjoyed the controversy".

Done --Europe22 (talk) 17:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cover versions

"...first by À la Recherche de la Nouvelle Star, on its album 1ers Tubes on which it appears as 13th track" À la Recherche de la Nouvelle Star is a television show - did one of the contestants perform the song or did all the contestants perform the song together? The show changed its name to just Nouvelle Star in 2003 - should you be linking to this article rather than À la Recherche de la Nouvelle Star?

Only two constestants perform the song (I added their first names in the article). The sources in which the cover version is mentioned say "A la Recherche de la Nouvelle Star" (Lescharts.com and Dictionnaire des chansons de Mylène Farmer), that's why I think we should keep this name.

Done (unless you disagree) --Europe22 (talk) 16:57, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]