Talk:Malino, Sveti Nikole

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Albanian name of the village

I've decided to open this talk and tag all currently-participating editors (Local hero, Alltan and Lawyerr123), in order to avoid more edit-warring. I'll restate my question for Alltan again - show me a policy/guideline/rule which states that the minority language name of a settlement should be present in the introduction and infobox of said settlement when there is 10% of said minority.

Furtheremore I'd like to point out edits such as this by the same editor - Albanians make less than 10% of the population of the settlement (7%), and the same editor added the category "Albanian communities in North Macedonia" to this page, which is absolutly absurd.

Proper use of such categories would be the pages for the Albanian communities in Serbia, or Hungarian communities in Serbia, which lists places which have only a Albanian/Hungarian majority.

And to make my position clear - I am against the addition of Albanian name of this village in the wikipage, at any capacity/form whatsoever, as per the arguments above. Kluche (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you against it? On what policy do you base your opposition.? WP:NCGN Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Now, the people who live here, (or did in 2021) make it so it isn't even a foreign name, but a local one. In general, a name used by a minority in an area is permitted to be displayed in the lead/infoboc.

Obviously we will not restrict the category only for places with an Albanian majority. If there is a substantial minority present in an area (re;ative or otherwise), they constitute a community in that area. I have restricted this category to villages, as per the inherent cosmopolitan nature of larger cities.

Adzievci has had a long established Albanian community inhabiting it. In the 1942 census it counted 15 families with 84 inhabitants, all Albanians. Alltan (talk) 15:23, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Including another name due to 2 people is absurd and goes against common sense. The guideline you cite does not make it a requierement to include such names. I have no idea what you mean when you say that the Albanian version is a "local" one - this is the English language Wikipedia, both the Macedonian and Albanian names are foreign language names, however the former being the sole offical and most common name.

About the category - I'd like to kindly remind you about WP:OWN, as you state that you have unilaterally and arbitrarily decided to "restrict" the category in question to villages. Firstly, while it might sound like WP:OTHERCONTENT, the two examples I gave above are what one such category should look like, another example would be the Hungarian communities in Slovakia, which does include settlements with sizable Hungarian minorities.

In the "Albanian communities in North Macedonia" page there are villages which don't even have Albanian inhabitants (such as Ivankovci or Bašino Selo). You've also added Demir Hisar to that category - a town (not village) with 1.6% of the population being Albanian, which is beyond absurd. We are in the present, not the past, and there is currently no sizable Albanian community there. The same applies with Adžievci and other settlements. Kluche (talk) 17:05, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Including another name due to 2 people is absurd and goes against common sense" - not when there are only 20 people in total in the village. There are 2 Albanians in the village, they use the local Albanian form of the name. Simple. I am not suggesting we RM to the Albanian version, however the Albanian form is relatively speaking needed in the article.

Careful with the accusations. "you have unilaterally and arbitrarily"... what? I am telling you why I haven't added them to cities, If you disagree with my reasoning feel free to @me in the talk pages of those cities. We can continue there.

I have never edited either of the two articles you mentioned so it is a bit weird why you're asking me. You can clearly see you have to remove them. I added Demir Hisar in a revert by mistake. Now if you want to continue going through each and every village one by one to see which should have the category, please do not do so in this TP ty. Alltan (talk) 17:14, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've come across what seems like hundreds of similar edits by Alltan and I rarely raise an issue if there's some historical and present reasoning for it. For these two villages, I had to check my calendar and make sure it wasn't April Fools yet. I won't restate what's been well-argued above, but how can you know that the two Albanians in this village speak Albanian? There is no such census data for mother tongue at the settlement level (to my knowledge). --Local hero ^talk 17:41, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLUESKY. Albanians speak Albanian as their mother tongue. Unless you have information to the contrary of it for this village ofc. Alltan (talk) 20:19, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of the 5,000 Albanians in Labuništa, only 925 declared Albanian as their mother tongue (2002). Sometimes the sky is grey. --Local hero ^talk 03:39, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cases where Macedonian speakers have identified as Albanian, like Bacista or Labunista etc, are very well documented. Albanians in Macedonia almost entirely use the Albanian language as a mother tongue, therefore in cases were a different language besides Albanian we will need sourcing. There is nothing to suggest the 2 Albanians do not speak Albanian, the WP:ONUS is on you to provide a source to back your claim. Alltan (talk) 12:53, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We don't get to make any assumptions without sources. They could speak Esperanto for all we know. Maybe these two Albanians are from Labuništa, who knows. If you've got a source for their mother tongue, please provide. Thanks. --Local hero ^talk 15:29, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's a strawman and an extraordinary claim. Until you provide sources claiming that Albanians don't speak... Albanian, the article will have its name reinstated. Alltan (talk) 15:34, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even if they do speak Albanian (which you can't prove), there's no consensus to add it based on the other facts laid out by others here. --Local hero ^talk 15:46, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are making an extraordinary claim. You need to add sources for it, not me. And there is no consensus to remove it in fact, since the first state of the article had the name included. Please gain consensus on removing it first. Alltan (talk) 13:01, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the removal has been supported by three users. The "first state of the article" was written by you lol. I removed it the next day and it has not stood on the article for much time, being reverted each time. --Local hero ^talk 00:40, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alltan it is still absurd. By the way, do you have a source on this "local" Albanian form of the name?

The way you stated that you did not add any cities and towns (despite you adding Demir Hisar, although I thank you for your clarification and reasoning) made it seem that you restrict all editors from adding non-village settelments in the category, signifying ownership of the article.

I never said you edited those article nor did I ask you why they are present in the category. Kluche (talk) 18:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Alltan it is still absurd." Why would it seem absurd? The local Albanian form of the name is just the Albanised version of the Slavic name. It is therefore Malinë on the Albanian Wikipedia, following regular Albanian naming conventions. Also see: [1]

"The way you stated that you did not add any cities and towns (despite you adding Demir Hisar, although I thank you for your clarification and reasoning) made it seem that you restrict all editors from adding non-village settelments in the category, signifying ownership of the article." Maybe you should WP:AGF. Alltan (talk) 20:25, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alltan, WP:NOTSOURCE, you linked the Albanian Wikipedia page for a different village. You have yet to present a source for the name. Not every toponym is the Albanized version of the Macedonian name, an example for that could be Lipkovo or Aračinovo and many more. Kluche (talk) 20:32, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[2] page 12. Alltan (talk) 20:51, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]