Talk:Malice at the Palace/Archive 2

Why remove triva?

"Basketbrawl" and "Malice in the Palace" are common names for this event that are frequently referenced in the sports media. Why shouldn't that be included on this article?

They are not, at least from any reference that can find. Google "Malice in the Palace" and the only references you will find is to older versions of this page (or copies like Answers.com). It's just not been used by anyone else outside of this.

Tmassey (talk) 00:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Game called

"The Pistons announcer, John Mason, called the game, and the Pacers were awarded the 97-82 win without the game finishing." -What the hell is this? Announcers don't make the call to end a game, the ref does that. I would think this means that John Mason, the announcer, called the game on television. But bringing it up like that is way out of context. It doesn't belong in that sentence. So I removed it. --Pwnage8 (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other fans

This article says "On November 30, eleven days after the brawl, John Green and Charlie Haddad were banned indefinitely from attending any events at venues owned by Palace Sports and Entertainment, the owner of the Pistons, and had their season tickets revoked." However, an article from USA Today states that more fans were banned from the Palace: Five fans were charged with misdemeanor assault and battery: John Green, William Paulson, John Ackerman, Bryant Jackson and David Wallace, the brother of Detroit's Ben Wallace. Two other spectators, Charlie Haddad and Alvin Shackleford, were charged with walking onto the court. All seven fans charged in the incident have been banned from the arena. ([1])

The USA Today article also says: Palace president Tom Wilson said all seven fans charged in the incident have been banned from the Palace. "We aren't saying that it is permanent, although it might be," he said. "It's definitely through the end of the season, and quite possibly beyond that." Therefore, it should probably be clarified in the article who was banned for life and who wasn't. For example, ESPN reports that Alvin "A.J." Shackleford was indeed banned for life as of May 2006. ([2]) Bash Kash (talk) 18:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've fixed the problem. Noble Story (talk) 03:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but keep in mind that the article was last updated less than a month after the brawl took place (December 9, 2004). Perhaps I should find a more recent source that tells us the status of the six other fans besides Shackleford. I assume Green is still banned for life, for example. Bash Kash (talk) 04:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For one thing, I don't think there will be any more recent sources. Also, I don't think the Pistons would be about to revoke their suspensions. Noble Story (talk) 04:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I'll still try to look up the status of the remaining fans, but you're probably right. BTW, the John Green article used to say "He has also been banned from the Palace grounds, and Artest has filed a restraining order against him. The restraining order requires that Green maintain a distance of 60 feet from Artest, which is the believed distance from where Green threw the cup at Artest." Do you know anything about this? This says Green says he'd apologize to Artest in person and buy him dinner if the Sacramento Kings star would lift a restraining order against him. Just curious if you think it's relevant enough to be mentioned in the article, and whether the restraining order is still in place. Bash Kash (talk) 04:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I knew about that, and considered putting it in, but I couldn't find anything further about it (when is was lifted and so on). It has borderline relevance, and it could be excluded or included without significant loss. So I don't care if you want to put it in or not. Noble Story (talk) 04:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pacers-Pistons brawl/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Pacers-Pistons brawl Wikipedia GAN review

Initial Comments: This article passes the quick-fail criteria...the references look like they are in decent shape...picture copyrights seem to check out. My goal for this review is to be as thorough as possible, but please note it's my personal policy not to make any edits on the article I'm currently reviewing, so the list of changes is up to other editors to carry out. Here's my full review:

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

My requirements for GA passage:

Add a section summarizing the game up to the time of the fight, something titled like "Before the Brawl" (I'll leave it up to you to pick a better name for the section). This section should answer the question; did any previous incidents in the game lead to Artest and Wallace to push and shove each other near the end of the game? I'd like to see this section be at least two paragraphs in length. This section also needs to reiterate the day, venue, venue location, and teams competing, since the introduction paragraph should only be considered a summary of the article as a whole.
Create a custom Infobox what will give readers vital info at a glance. I suggest making it something along the lines of the one used for the AMP Energy NHL Winter Classic. The Infobox for this article could include standard things like the score after the end of each quarter, attendance, and the exact time during the game play was suspended. You may wish to incorporate the current ESPN screen capture into the Infobox, or move the picture into the "Altercation" section; it's completely up to you.
In the second paragraph of the "Altercation" section, wikilink the first mention of Jermaine O'Neal in the text.
For reference #1 [3], the date of publication listed in the reference should be changed from November 19, 2004 to November 21, 2004. November 21 is the last time thewebpage was updated, and this is the publication date that should be cited.
The authors of references #13, 15, and 17 needed to be cited in their corresponding references.
The Associated Press should be cited as the author of references #14, 30, 38, and 44.
In reference #27 [4], the date of the radio broadcast (December 8, 2004) needs to be cited.
In the second sentence of the third paragraph under the "Suspensions" section, fix the typo "The NBA's argued that under the terms..." so it reads "The NBA argued that under the terms...."
The first sentence under the "Teams after the brawl" section needs to be rewritten. Instead of "The Pacers and Pistons played for the first time on December 25 at the Conseco Fieldhouse in Indianapolis.", how about something like, "The Pacers and Pistons played their next game against each other on December 25 at the Conseco Fieldhouse in Indianapolis." The point is that Dec. 25, 2004 was not the first time the teams played each other :)
The first two sentences of the "Teams after the brawl" section needs to be merged into the paragraph that follows them. In general, complete paragraphs are defined as three sentences or more. Just created a transition to "On February 17, 2005, the NBA imposed new security..." by saying something like "Months later on February 17, 2005, the NBA imposed...."
Wikilink to "mL" milliliters and "ounces" in the "Teams after the brawl" section.
Rename the "Teams after the brawl" section to something more descriptive and accurate, like "Events after the brawl."

Suggestions for future improvement:

Quotes from players, coaches, and perhaps even the fans involved would be a great addition to the article through the use of quote boxes. Considering that fan/player violence is so rare, I'm especially interested to hear direct quotes from the fans involved about their take on what happened.
I noticed ESPN is heavily referenced; try and mix it up a little by attempting to find references from the major newspapers of both Detroit and Indianapolis, or any other reputable news sources.

Review Result:

GAN review ON HOLD

In short, this article needs to be somewhat expanded in addition to getting some minor issues fixed.

I will place the article on hold for seven days, during which time all requirements need to be met in order for me to consider passing it. When/if all the requirements are met, please notify me on my talk page, & I will review the changes. For anyone else reading this review, please consider reviewing an article yourself at Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia thus far, and good luck with the article in the future! Monowi (talk) 08:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review #1 Failed

This article has failed its first Good Article Nomination because all of the required changes for passage were not made in time. Specifically, item number one was not completed. In addition, small changes, like citing the Associated Press as the author in current reference #44, were done incorrectly; ESPN.com is no longer listed as the publisher of the article like it should be. Please see Template:Cite web for a helpful way to fill out all known reference information. Good luck with the article in the future, and for anyone else reading this review, please consider reviewing an article yourself at Wikipedia:Good article nominations. Cheers, Monowi (talk) 07:04, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Game before brawl

I added a section about the game before the brawl, though it is completly based on memory and probably needs some editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragons master (talk • contribs) 19:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, great, but wouldn't that violate Wikipedia:No original research? Everything that you write should be based on reliable sources. See WP:V. I have tagged the section you added with {{unreferenced}}. Bash Kash (talk) 02:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, if we ever want this to become a Good Article, we can't have entire sections that are unsourced. I'm going to remove it for the time being, but please find some reliable sources if you want to restore it. Bash Kash (talk) 20:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On third thought (is that a phrase?), I have restored it again, but it's going to need some sources. Bash Kash (talk) 20:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the stats i Got from basketball reference, but I dont know how to add references :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.252.234.55 (talk) 05:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added reference and removed tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.252.234.55 (talk) 01:45, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I rewrote the section and add a reference.—Chris! _ct 05:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

86 games?

This article says "Artest was given the longest suspension, as he was suspended for the remainder of the 2004-05 NBA season, a suspension which eventually totaled 86 games..." An anon changed this to 76. However, the source cited actually says 73 games. ([5]) Perhaps this is the actual number? But where did "86" come from? Bash Kash (talk) 20:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Artest's suspension was for the remainder of the 2004-05 season, playoffs included. That means Artest's suspension was extended through Detroit's 13 postseason games. 3.14 (talk) 05:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note on Reference Formatting

In response to a post Bash Kash made on my talk page about using the Cite web template for reference formatting, I'd like to point out a minor tweak I just made to the formatting of current reference #44. It's fantastic that both the author and publisher are now listed in the reference (good work :) ), but I simply used Cite web's established formatting to put the author, the Associated Press, after the "|author=" formatting in order to clean up the reference's formatting a bit. Under this method, the cite web template automatically formats the reference for you, saving both time and any potential confusion for other editors. Hope this info helps, the article is shaping up nicely, and continued good luck in your efforts. Monowi (talk) 07:06, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pacers-Pistons brawl/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

The article's pretty good, however here are a few things that need fixing:

I'd like to see Before the Brawl expanded a bit, however I won't fail the article if this isn't satisfied, as the article is about the brawl, not the game.
"The Pistons managed to keep themselves close, trailing by 16 points by halftime." Um, since when is 16 points close in basketball? It's not a blowout but it's certainly not close.

Fixed by another editor—Chris! _ct 03:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The see also section is rather large. I think a couple could be knocked out.

Fixed by another editor—Chris! _ct 03:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll allow for a week to fix what's needed, and then I'll check to see if I've missed anything. Wizardman 20:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be possible to expand the before the brawl section a bit? I'll pass it upon doing that. Wizardman 15:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, just give me some time.—Chris! _ct 21:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I expand the section.—Chris! _ct 21:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good now, I'll pass the article. :) Wizardman 00:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

nothing special but

It was so coincidental that I was just reading about this event yesterday and noticed that it said Billups was the only one still with his original team and then today I read about him getting traded to the Nuggets, I just found that a bit funny, that's all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.215.143.208 (talk) 20:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I actually disagree with the way the article is written concerning Billups. The way the article is written implies that Billups was traded because of the brawl the article discusses, which is untrue. Although factual, the way it is written is misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.25.118 (talk) 01:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]