Jump to content

Talk:Makiivka

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a city in Ukraine, why are the Russian names given for the city's railway lines? Can I remove them? Ostap 02:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2011 bomb attacks

[edit]

Not sure this is noticable enough... two explosions rocked the town of Makiyivka in Donetsk region early on Jan. 20, 2011. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

plus Added. Thanks for the suggestion! HappyWith (talk) 17:48, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox heading format

[edit]

I have put the names of the city in the infobox into the same format as we use for Dnepropetrovsk. If you disagree, please discuss it here, rather than revert-warring.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:03, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Makiivka. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:22, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Remove claim of "fewer than 100 people had died in the attack"

[edit]

In the section "Russo-Ukrainian War", the claim is made that "An unnamed source in Donetsk told Reuters that fewer than 100 people had died in the attack.". The reference given is an article from reuters.com. I think this sentence should be removes for the following reason: I've read the Reuters article now three times, and perhaps I am blind, but I cannot find the claim anywhere in the article. Perhaps the reference is made to Rybar, who are cited in the article as claiming a number lower than 100. But Rybar is neither in Donetsk, nor did they contact Reuters directly. Anyway, even Rybar has updated their casualty assessment to above 100 now, so this anonymous claim is hardly relevant anymore, I guess. I would do the edit myself, but for some reason I cannot find the "edit"- button. I am quite new so Wikipedia as an editor (although my account is years old), so perhaps I'm doing something wrong. EpicBroccoli (talk) 13:20, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting proposal

[edit]
BEST NOT
For administrative purposes, Ukraine is divided into oblasts, raions, and, except in Crimea, hromadas. The way I've understood this is as superficially similar to the English counties, districts and civil parishes, although there are many differences in detail. Well, local government in Ukraine was reformed in 2020, creating a consolidated hromada at the city of Makiivka. It's rather unfortunate that our article on Local government in Ukraine wasn't thoroughly updated after this happened. Anyway, when this reform happened, Makiivka, like other territories in the Donbas/eastern Ukraine, was occupied by Russian-backed separatists and administered by Russia, so the Makiivka hromada has only ever existed on paper. In the discussion below, Ymblanter describes it as "a fictitious entity", and there's an unresolved conversation about whether he's right to do so. Whether or not he is, the hromada has no elected officials, and it has never been able to make a decision that affects the people it represents. This obviously means that the Makiivka hromada is fundamentally unlike the other Ukrainian hromadas.
In this discussion, Dantheanimator asks whether to split out a separate article on Makiivka urban hromada. Strictly speaking Dantheanimator doesn't need community consent to do this, and there is support for the idea, but Ymblanter argues convincingly to the contrary. Even though all the words in bold say "support", reading the conversation suggests that such an article wouldn't be useful.
That's the end of my formal close, but after I've taken my closer hat off, I'd suggest there might be scope to start an article on Local government in occupied Ukraine and redirect Makiivka urban hromada there?
I do hope this helps.—S Marshall T/C 13:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposing to split the content of the sub-section of this page regarding the Makiivka urban hromada and turn it into a separate page. All the hromadas on the Ukrainian wikipedia and all existing hromadas on the English wikipedia (except for hromadas with only one settlement) have their own designated page. While it's true this article would be made shorter, and the resulting split article would initially be a stub, both could easily be expanded and there are cases of independent hromada articles becoming good articles (ex: Dvorichna settlement hromada). Also, the split would improve consistency across the wiki and would improve the focus/quality of this article (by limiting it to content regarding its title and not extraneous content). A good example of a city with a separate hromada article is Bakhmut, which has its own Bakhmut urban hromada article. Dan the Animator 22:33, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. HappyWith (talk) 16:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note however that Makiivka urban hromada is a fictitious entity: It was created de-jure by Verkhovna Rada at the period Ukraine did not control the territory, and never created de-facto. This is clearly different from the example of Bakhmut. Ymblanter (talk) 07:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Law is not “fiction.” We have all kinds of articles about illegal “entities” that only have meaning in the conception of violent war criminals, so we should certainly have articles about Ukraine’s constitutional and legal order which meet our guidelines on places as a subject.  —Michael Z. 14:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide reliable independent secondary sources that the entity exists (i.e. that it is encyclopedically notable). Ymblanter (talk) 15:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for not seeing this earlier and thanks for the comments! Thought I'd chip in here with this since another editor messaged me about this same thing (e.g. notability) about a month ago. I've been sporadically searching the internet for whatever sources are available and it's been tough (mostly because I'm not literate in Ukrainian) but I did find this source (linked here) which I've added to some articles as a supplement and have been hoping might satisfy the notability requirement fully (I've been preoccupied off-wiki with other stuff so I haven't reached out to other editors for their opinions on it yet). The news article, which comes from a reputable NGO in Ukraine, doesn't substantiate most of the content in hromada articles but it does verify the existence of this and other hromadas (within the article's provided maps, albeit in Ukrainian) and explains the 2020 admin. reform and the significance/roles of the newly created hromadas (in Russian). Aside from this source, there are many government or government-affiliated sources (e.g. primary sources) that have published easily accessible info on the hromadas and which verify the content on article pages. That said, I've still been searching when I can to try to find an auxiliary secondary source to supplement the Hromadske NGO article on the notability question. In any case, would be interested to know your thoughts and whether this assuages any notability concerns you might have. Cheers, Dan the Animator 03:35, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter: it's been a while so thought I'd ping you in case my reply went under the radar. (apologies in advance for the bother too!) Cheers, Dan the Animator 04:16, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, there are even better sources which I am slowly adding to the articles on Ukrainian raions/localities. My point is that, when we are talking about hromadas which were created in the occupied territories and never controlled by Ukrainian states, these sources prove merely one thing - that these hromadas were created on paper, to demonstrate that the territories belong to Ukraine. The creation has never been implemented, for obvious reasons. I do not think an article which only consists of this information and is not expandable beyond that would survive an AfD. Ymblanter (talk) 07:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply! About the "even better sources" you found, can you please share them with me? Not for this proposed article but just in general because I've been searching for quite some time and I haven't been able to find any secondary source showing the notability of the individual hromadas (specifically in unoccupied Ukraine, like Kyiv Oblast). Btw, feel free to make a new post on my talk page about this so this discussion doesn't get lengthy.
On your point an article which only consists of this information and is not expandable beyond that would survive an AfD, I agree that if the said hromada articles weren't capable of being expanded, they probably shouldn't be created but I don't think that's the case necessarily with these. While its true that these hromadas only exist on paper, that doesn't mean info about the land they cover can't be included (e.g. general history, demographic stats from before occupation, geography/geology, etc.). That said, there are other cases of on-paper-only administrative divisions receiving their own articles (Taiwan Province, People's Republic of China for example, which hasn't had any control by the PRC in the entirety of the PRC's existence). @Ymblanter: Interested to hear your thoughts. Cheers, Dan the Animator 18:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ymblanter: Apologies for pinging you a lot here but I'm really eager to see the better sources you mentioned. Honestly doesn't matter to me if you don't make any additional replies here and if it helps, I'll withdraw this RM now. Please just post a list of those sources on my talk page as soon as you get the chance so I can take a look at them. It doesn't have to be anything fancy: a list of links would be perfectly fine. In truth, having a look at those sources is much more important to me than this RM, especially if they are as good as they sound. Best, Dan the Animator 19:18, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I overlooked this. I will come back in a minute. Ymblanter (talk) 19:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These two references give the legal foundations and the list of hromadas:[1][2] Ymblanter (talk) 19:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is the database which shows for every hromada which localities it is composed of, and also the pre-2020 composition. Ymblanter (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for the sources! I've looked through them and the Holos Ukrayiny article and Hromada database (gromada.info) are both really helpful. I've tried a bunch of times but the ministry source (2nd source - the url looks like a shorthand for a ministry) that you cited won't work for me (it has connection issues probably since I'm trying to access it from the U.S.) so I can't comment on that one for the most part. Some questions/comments though about sourcing:
I've seen the Hromada database before but I've always assumed its unreliable since it looks a lot like a user-inputted/created website. Thought I should ask just to make sure, is the Hromada database article fully reliable? Also, I've tried searching to see if I can find out the publisher/owner of the website but the only thing I've found is that the info regarding the hromadas unsurprisingly comes from the Ukrainian government, which doesn't help with its credibility. My main questions I guess are is the database privately owned and, if so, is it a secondary source (not government affiliated)? The map has a small caption that says "volunteers" so I'm really skeptical of the reliability of the website as a source, even if it claims the info comes straight from the government.
More of a general comment and kind of related to the above but do you have any secondary sources about hromadas? The Holos Ukrayiny article is amazing and I'm guessing the website for a ministry which I can't access is also great but both are primary, government sources (given my comments/questions above, I won't judge the hromada database source). My main reason for asking about sources is because I've been searching for a long while now to find reliable, secondary sources directly verifying/naming the hromadas (sources with no direct connection to the government, like independent newspapers or NGOs). Ideally the sources would be primarily about the hromadas but any sources would help at this point. There's a lot of government-affiliated sources readily available on the internet (like some of the ones you linked) but they don't help with notability. So far, the Hromadske article I mentioned earlier in this discussion thread is the only valuable secondary source I found about hromadas. I know you're a bit doubtful on the notability of hromadas in occupied Ukraine (if I'm understanding your comment below correctly) although without additional secondary sources almost all hromada articles (except the one for Dvorichna, which is a GA) would be deleted, regardless of their location.
Personally, the main reasons I think they're notable are because the hromadas have a lot of duties, most 3rd level admin. divisions in other countries have their own articles, almost all hromadas have articles on the Ukrainian wiki, most can easily be expanded into GAs (like Dvorichna), and having them makes it a lot easier to navigate (and locate specific settlement articles, which is what I was using them initially for). In any case, let me know if you ever come across a secondary source mentioning/discussing hromadas since that's what'll ensure the notability of all the articles. If you're interested too, I'd be open to discussing on how better to structure info about Ukrainian subdivisions and related topics, especially given all the relatively recent changes like the abolition of urban-type settlements. Anyways, let me know your thoughts on the above and thanks again for the sources! Best, Dan the Animator 23:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Concerning the subdivisions, well, I myself created all articles on all raions of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts which have never controlled by the Ukrainian government (i.e. fictitious subdivisions). However, there is certain limit up to which we should go. May be the raions whould be deleted as well, but for me the hromadas at this point are below the notability bar. Ymblanter (talk) 19:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per my comments above and for consistency, given other unoccupied parts of Ukraine have hromada articles, I think occupied Ukraine should be treated the same. I sympathize with the notability concerns given that they are de jure only subdivisions but I think that shouldn't necessarily negate their notability (the question of notability of hromadas is a broader one imo covering all of Ukraine). Cheers, Dan the Animator 23:55, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Про утворення та ліквідацію районів. Постанова Верховної Ради України № 807-ІХ". Голос України (in Ukrainian). 2020-07-18. Retrieved 2020-10-03.
  2. ^ "Нові райони: карти + склад" (in Ukrainian). Міністерство розвитку громад та територій України.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Makiivka&oldid=1208825099"