Talk:Makhzumi dynasty

Center of the state

To respond to the edit summary "north is not shewa sultanate":

Based on these sources [1][2] center of Shewa Sultanate is Walalha which is 50 miles north East of Addis Ababa (by observation through Google map North East of Addis Ababa is North Shewa Amhara zone) near Sano, and Sano is near Debre Berhan [3]. Based on these sources [4][5][6] center of the state is Tegulat (known by muslims as Mar'ade) and Tegulet is found 15 miles north of Debre Berhan in North Shewa Amahara zone (or in Tegulet na Bulga awraja)[7][8][9][10]. Menz people, previously muslims, are also found in North Shewa. Therfore, North Shewa is not only part of shewa sultanate but is also the center of the state. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 11:38, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

It does not matter if Menz people were found in Zambia, if its not the sultanate of shoa its not to be added. You can add that Menz were found in several regions on their article page not here. Cambridge University says East. Shewa had a christian polity in the north at the same time the sultanate of shewa existed.Duqsene (talk) 20:47, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, what is Zambia has got to do with this? I think you should tone it down and discuss the contents presented. This discussion is also for other invited editors to give their opinion in case of disagreement. When you say "Shewa had a christian polity in the north at the same time the sultanate of shewa existed" which source did say that and what are those polity names, also named Shewa? Based on this source [11] ""all the lands" of the Muslims. These included Kuelgora and Bequlzar, which according to Huntingford, were probably situated near Aleyu Amba and north of the Kassam river" search Aliyu Amba in Google map [12] and you will find it next to Ankober (capital of the 19th century Shewan kingdom) in the east of presentday North Shewa Amhara region. Non of the sources you presented state center of Shoa sultanate being located in the lowlands but all say East Shewa highland areas, and when the old sources (written before the 90s state reorganization) say East Shewa they also include North Shewa Amhara region as well because it is located East of Shewa region. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:41, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Ifat is not Shewa learn the difference and stop adding unrelated polities into the page as you did the same in Abyssinian article. Shewa was annexed by Ifat later on, it wasnt the same state. It already indicates East Shewa in the article but you added north by misinterpreting the citations. Pankhurst and Umari are talking about Ifat not Shoa. By the time Umari visited the region the Shoa sultanate had been incorporated into Ifat. You also claimed Amharic only existed in the 13th century yet you have no problem adding source that claims Amharic was spoken since the 10th century at the start of the Sultanate of Showa. The source specifically says Ifat thus it cant be added. Find sources talking about Shewa specifically with the geographical location indicated on the source. Dont equate finding muslims with Shewa sultanate as Axum itself had muslim rulers. The muslims had posts everywhere as they were descendants of traders not all of them were subjects of the sultanate of shewa. East shewa is not considered lowland but highlands see here Duqsene (talk) 18:55, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, no clear idea as to what the issue is:

• 1) Shewa together with other large provinces such as Adal is one of the provinces of Ifat according to the Egyptian Al Umari. Do you not accept Shewa being part of Ifat? If so state clearly and our discussion will focus on weather shewa is part or not part of Ifat. And the other history is that Ifat itself was also the easternmost district of Shewa before 1285. Do you also not accept this history?

• 2) What am saying is since Shewa is part of Ifat (or since Ifat was part of Shewa before 1285) then between 896-mid 14th centuary there is only power shift between provinces (or just simply dynasty and name change while both were centered in the same place Walalah-Walale & Mar'ade-Tegulat) in one state and there is no other entity or people involved but just the same people who were in the same state. Therefore, when Richard Pankhurst & Al Umari describes Ifat they are also describing Ifat provinces that includes Shewa. If you have disagreement with this statement then we can discuss about it as well so that I know your issue clearly.

• 3) The muslim people of Midra Zega, Zaber and Menz were included because Richard Pankhurst begin to describe these people claiming they are the people of the "land of muslims" or the "the land of Shewa or Shewa midir" and the source you provided above, from the cambrige university, indicated there were no conversion in the region before 1108 and one tribe, ancestors of Argobbas, are one of the first to be converted according to the Shewa sultanate chronicle. And the same source states that based on the name of the princes the scholar Ceruli concluded that rulling classes spoke Ethiopian semtic languages (likely Argobba). Again the cambrige source you provided also mentions that the Amharas were leaving even in the lowlands found east of Shewan plateau in the land of Werjih people before 1128.

3.1) is the issue with including the religion of Shewa and the polity being claimed to be the first inland muslim state by scholars?

3.2) are you suggesting that there should be no indication as to what the sultanate did within the over 200 years of existence like expanding Islam in the region?

3.3) are you suggesting there should not be an indication as to the inhabitants of the state which later became one of the 7 provinces of Ifat Sultanate?

• 4) Because you keep on claiming Shewa sultanate is found in East Shewa, where is East Shewa in your opinion? And since Ifat was also the easternmost district of Shewa sultanate then where do you think Ifat is located? Are you suggesting the center of Shewa sultanate is located in the lowlands found east of presentday North Shewa Amhara zone? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 11:03, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Open an RFC if you want to include this and get consensus and cease rollbacking. Shewa is also a province and mostly the east was shewa sultanate meaning west and north were christian polities, when Ifat took hold of Shewa it was no longer shewa sultante. The only thing relevant is that Shewa was taken over by the more powerful ifat. It wasnt just a name change again your generalizing all polities and blurring the lines between them. people of the land of shewa are not the same as people of the land of the sultanate of shewa, just because they are muslims doesnt mean they are part of the sultanate. Some of them were subjects of Axum. The Ifat sultante has its own page, why dont you add that content to the page? If the source doesnt say North its not to be added in. The source on Tegulat specifically says east shewa therefore why add north? Al umari's statement about Ifat should not be included in the article. Duqsene (talk) 15:10, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, before I take it to RFC or invite other editors I need to know your issues and try to address them first i.e. if you are here to build an encyclopedia by consensus.

1) You said "Shewa is also a province and mostly the east was shewa sultanate meaning west and north were christian polities...."

When you say "west and north were christian polities" I took it the ancient people leaving in west & north modern-Shewa Province were chrstians by mid 14th century and which source did say that?

2) You said "The only thing relevant is that Shewa was taken over by the more powerful ifat. It wasnt just a name change again your generalizing all polities and blurring the lines between them. people of the land of shewa are not the same as people of the land of the sultanate of shewa, just because they are muslims doesnt mean they are part of the sultanate. "

So are you suggesting Ifat was not part of Shewa Sultanate and that Shewa was absorbed by an external polity known as Ifat contrary to this source? And again are you denying Shewa being one of the districts of Ifat Sultanate and both being centered in one area called Walalah-Walale (50 miles NE of Addis Ababa) contrary to this source. What I have added is what is found in the sources which says "the people found between Awash river and Zeber are muslims and Zega people found south of modern Merhabete and Menz people were muslims" [13][14] and these places are found in modern-Shewa province and also not far away from Tegulat and Walale, the center of Shewa sultanate. Note that we are talking about a state that existed for over 300 years and that within this period there could be times this state expands into large territory and there could be times it will just be restricted to it's center. Why the scholars in the sources added these muslim people in a story that talks about old-Shewa province of Ifat sultanate is also to discuss the people, language and geo-politics that also influences the Shewa Sultanate and to discuss the states role in the expansion or even in maintaining Islam in the region even upto mid 14th centuary.

The sources you brought saying "East shewa" were written before 1990s state reorganization and previously North Shewa Amhara is also considered East Shewa. Let me ask you again:

In todays geographical names where do you think Mar'ade (center of Shewa sulatante which later renamed as Tegulat and became the seat of Emperor Amda Tsion) is located? East Shewa zone Oromiya? or North Shewa Amhara zone? How about Aliyu Amba where do you think it is located?

Answering those questions I think can solve the issues. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:32, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Ifat Sultanate is not Shewa Sultanate just because they follow the same religion. Dont add Ifats language on Shewa Sultanates page. Makhzumi dynasty was Sultanate of Shewa, the Walasma dynasty was Ifat led by Wali asma who overthrew the Shewa sultanate and incorporated it into Ifat see here Shewa became a measly district within Ifat meaning the Ifat empire absorbed it. Find source for statements made in the article and dont misinterpret the source. Duqsene (talk) 18:42, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, as said Ifat was the district of Shewa Sultanate therfore Ifat's language could also be Shewas language. Moreover, both Shewa and Ifat were centered in same place Maradi-Tegulat and Walalha-Walale. Note that the Scholars J. D. Fage and Roland Oliver even discussed Al Umari's account of Ifat's language when discussing the language of Shewa sultanate therfore including Al Umari's account and Pankhurst's analysis is also important to discuss the language of Shewa sultanate that became the province of Ifat. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:32, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

That is your own conclusion and not what the source says. With no citations you can not add it in here. They can live in the same area it doesnt mean they are the same people or speak the same language. Ceruli analyzed the names of the Sultanate of Showa and proposed that they may have been Argobba. Amharic is a new language that came later and you know this (most likely under ifat), follow the sources and dont insert your opinion. No its not important to discuss another polity's language, add it into ifat not here. If you want to talk about the history of Ifat (shewa district) add it into the Ifat sultanate page, this is the Shewa Sultanate page. Why do you think there is two articles? They are not the same. Duqsene (talk) 17:33, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, there is one question I asked above which you did not answer so far so let me ask you again:

Do you agree with Ifat being the easternmost district of Shewa Sultanate?

Answering that question will solve the issue here

• If your answer is no i.e. if you are opposing this source which is written by Scholar Nehemia Levtzion & Randall Pouwels and published by Ohio University Press [15] then the topic of the argument would be is Ifat part or not part of Shewa Sultanate.

• If your answer is yes Ifat was the easternmost district of Shewa Sultanate then adding a content in this article saying the language of Ifat is probably Amaharic [16] while supporting it with a reliable source written by the Scholar Richard Pankhurst and published by The Red Sea Press [17] is ok.

• If you do not want to answer it then there is a reason behind that and may be we should discuss about that. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:22, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Sure if the source says that, it can be mentioned that Ifat was once part of Shewa and would later invade Shewa. Based on the sources Ifat became independent and would later invade Shewa. Now to say Ifat and Shewa had the same language and there was no diversity can not be added without a source. One source on Shewa contradicts Ifats persumed language. Its already a known fact even today that Ethiopia continues to have hundreds of different languages. Find a source that specifically says Shewa Sultanate was persumed to have spoken Amharic, dont look at maps and make your own concusion. Lets say Ifat during its Shewa sultanate district days spoke Amharic, how is this possible when Amharic was in existence only since the 13th century when Shewa sultanate existed since 10th century. Do you see why even if Al Umari visited Shewa before Ifats dominance, pankhurst would not be able to persume Shewa nor its ifat district spoke Amharic? Duqsene (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, ok then there is no opposition in regards to Ifat being the easternmost district of Shewa Sultanate which already is mentioned in the article. Let me respond to your comments above:

First let me bring what is added in the article

A few decades later after Shewa was incorporated into Ifat an Egyptian courtier, Al Umari, will describe Ifat Sultanate as one of the largest as well as the richest of Ethiopias muslim provinces, and Shewa, Adal, Jamma, Lao and Shimi are places incorporated into Ifat. Al Umari further states that the inhabitants of Ifat spoke Abyssinian by which, according to Richard Pankhurst, was probably meant Amharic.[11] Based on other factors such as Al Umari's account and also by considering Cerulli's study of the names of the princes J. D. Fage and Roland Oliver were convinced that the inhabitants of Shewa spoke Ethiopian semetic language likely Argobba language.[17]

As you can see above what is added in the article contradicts with what you said "Now to say Ifat and Shewa had the same language and there was no diversity can not be added without a source."

• You said "Lets say Ifat during its Shewa sultanate district days spoke Amharic, how is this possible when Amharic was in existence only since the 13th century when Shewa sultanate existed since 10th century." on your 23rd Dec comment you have said: "You also claimed Amharic only existed in the 13th century yet you have no problem adding source that claims Amharic was spoken since the 10th century at the start of the Sultanate of Showa." .

I beleive those comments are based on our talk in Abyssinian people talkpage. Note that I did not say Amharic language did not exist before 13th centuary and what I said was unlike Ge'ez language which was proofed to exist by inscriptions even before 5th century BC, the role of people speaking Amharic and Tigrinya in Axum Kingdom is in question as there was no written documents or inscription in this languages before 13th centuary. However, based on other factors (other than written documents & inscriptions) used by linguists to date language existence and separation those languages did exist before 13th centuary as this source states.

• The reason why I think it is important to include Richard Pankhurst's analysis is because:

1) J. D. Fage and Roland Oliver even used Al Umari's account (written in regards to Ifat) to come to a conclusion that inhabitants of Shewa sulatante spoke Ethiopian semitic languages (likely Argobba),

2) Ifat being part of Shewa Sultanate earlier,

3) Shewa being part of Ifat later,

4) since both Shewa and Ifat were being centered in one place called Walalah-Walale and Marade-Tegulat

5) these centers being located in todays North Shewa Zone Amhara

6) since Amhara tribes such as Menz and Yifat being muslims during the reign of Amda Tsion [18][19] and

7) since chronicle of Shewa Sultanate mentions that Amhara before 1128 were leaving in a lowland areas east of Shewan plateau (probably as pastoralist) that was part of both Shewa-Ifat before 1128 and I beleive these sultanates knew the people whom they ruled under their territory.

then based on mainly 1-4 reasons I see no reason why Al Umari's account itself should not be included together with another Scholars analysis on his account — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 11:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Ifats history and language is to be added in its own page. Umari describes one province within the Ifat sultanate called Ifat not Ifat sultanate itself, and says they spoke Abyssinian, he however lists other places such as Shewa, Adal etc which was invaded as comprising Ifat but does not go into detail on their language or culture. Ifat sultanate did invade Shewa thats all to be reported. Your misinterpreting the source therefore stop adding it in. Ask another editor if you like. The Ohio state source you listed differs from Abyssinian and instead lists Cushites as the key statesmen and Harlay Harari [20] Ohio source explains Ifat but it might be Adal who comprised of these speakers which shows the diversity within the provinces as it contradicts pankhurst. I dont know why you want to add Ifat's language on shewa page. Addition of Ifat's language: Amharic, Cushite and other languages proposed by historians will turn this page into Ifat sultanate article. Duqsene (talk) 19:32, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, as said Ifat was district of Shewa sultanate so therfore Ifat is also part of the history of Shewa Sultanate. Brief description of Ifat is also important because there are also people who may ask:

1)What happened to Shewa sultanate after 1285?

2)By what state and people was it absorbed into?

3)Did Shewa sultanate had a chance to regain it's kingdom?

4)After it's incorporation into other state what changed interms of language and religion of the inhabitants?

5)The state that incorporates the state spoke what language? and other related questions.

As for the other people proposed by the Ohio university source then I will summerise and add them as the inhabitants of Ifat (since Ifat was district of shewa then these people were also inhabitants of Shewa Sultanate). That I believe will address your concern in regards to diversity within the state. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:15, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

They can read the history of ifat on Ifat Sultanate page not here. Summarize inhabitants of Ifat when it was a district in Shewa on the Ifat page. Dont add it here again. Duqsene (talk) 14:48, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, whats included is a brief description of Ifat because Ifat was earlier part of Shewa and because Shewa was later part of Ifat and both were centered in one location (Walalah-Walale and Mar'ade-Tegulat) which means the people, language, history and center of Ifat is also Shewa sultanate's people, language, history and center. Also because people need to know the description of the rival state in the region in which Shewa Sultanate was incorporated into and also because those sources who concluded people of Shewa spoke Argobba also used Al-Umari's description of Ifat Sultanate — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:21, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

The only summary to be included is that it was part of Shewa and Ifat would invade, no inclusion of its inhabitants or language because it has its own page. Amharic didnt exist until 13th century therefore you wont find any sources regarding shewa sultanate possibly speaking Amharic. If you can find sources that state shewa sultanate spoke Amharic then its fine to add in. Amda Seyon was fighting Ifat and defeated them therefore its a possibility that at this time Amharic came into existence but all this is irrelevant on the Shewa page. Ifat sultanate is not Shewa sultanate and vice versa. Duqsene (talk) 15:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, why don't you critisise the many reasons I listed above for the importance of adding a brief description of Ifat instead of arguiung based on what you claim I have said as "Amharic didnt exist until 13th century" in Abyssinian people talk page? What is realy your problem with Amharic language and Amhara people? If a source based on Al-Umari's account states Ifat speak Amharic language then what is the problem adding it in here? Contrarily you want another source which also used Al Umaris description of Ifat to come to a conclusion that inhabitants of Shewa spoke Argobba. Seriously, I don't think you are arguing for the quality of this article. Based on your edits so far in this and other articles you don't like stories related to integration of African peoples and have added contents that portray Amhara people as oppressors (as if all other people are innocent who never harmed their neighbors) and it seems you realy have issues with Amhara people, tell me what do you think the fate of the over 4 million Amhara people born and raised in Oromo dominated territories? Pack their bag and go back to wherever they come from because they are a threat to Oromuma and other ethnic nationalism? By the way I do not belong to Amhara ethnic group and as I already told you in Abyssinian people article am not here to deal with all this political stuff and am here to tell balanced information with an impartial tone, tell story to inform people but not to create resentment between people and incite ethnic violence. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 17:08, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem adding it here is that its not the Ifat page. Go and add it into Ifat sutlanate article and i wont revert you. I dont conclude that they were Argbba speakers but the source does, as cerulli analyzed the list of the rulers of the sultanate of shewa. I add what reliable citations have said not my own ideas. If you can do the same then there wont be any issues. Recently you added a map that labels Ifat in the Somalia region on the Oromo peoples page even though it has nothing to do with Oromo people., this shows you have a pattern of adding unrelated polities to pages. Let me get this straight, you would prefer to censor historical accuracy inorder to not create resentment in Ethiopia? This is unacceptable from a wikipedia editor, are you telling me you have a conflict of interest? Duqsene (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, what I beleive is in discussion and if some one brings sources from scholars then there is no reason I wouldnt accept. Earlier you have critisised about diversity and I have addressed that and added other people as well because states are built by people and it is important to add them. If you have issues with all these scholars not including Oromo people or clan names in their list then it is not because those 100s of neutral scholars with degrees are idiots or because they are financed to serve anyones political interest but only because it did not convince them. If you can find a source that says people who speaks Oromo or the Oromo clan names found in the area today were found in Showa and Ifat sultanate then we can discuss about that and also add them here. What I beleive is people do not move but a few rulling classes move and change religions of other people while not changing language and clan name when speaking of Muslim and Christian states (though the Christian state appoints muslim Sultans and preserve the sultanates as they are to rule their people with their own religion, system, islamic law, custom, culture and preferred languages but put them under their kingdom because they could be a treat to their religion). However, others change every thing completely in areas they rule i.e. change clan name & place names, religions, peoples geneology and languages but adopt cultures from the people they rule. Therfore, there are no people who migrated or expanded in Ethiopia and the people you find everywhere is the people who have been there for 1,000s of years. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:21, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

If you have issues with the english language, then say so. Dont add the Ifat history on this page. Open an RFC if you want. Duqsene (talk) 16:56, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Duqsene, instead of trying to make your reverts justifiable by attacking the editor (saying "issues with English") why not make a little effort to deal with all the reasons listed above for the importance of adding brief description about Ifat? What is written above is in clear English (no other language used) and if you have issues with some of the contents ask for clarification so that I bring sources written by respected neutral scholars and explain it to you. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 08:24, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Before I take it to RFC I need to know what your issues are so that I can address them. If you are here to build an encyclopedia then by now I should have known on which ones you agree with and on which one you disagree with in regards to the reasons listed above. You do not want to confirm or reject the source saying Ifat was part of Shoa Sultanate, you do not want to say "I disagree with X & Y reasons for this and that reason". If you have no interest in convincing one another and are here just to oppose the inclusion of sourced content that says "probably Amharic" then may be you should look at Wikipedia rule saying No WP:Advocacy. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 09:11, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Sorry this discussion is going nowhere as you dont seem to understand. Dont revert again. Follow the wikipedia procedure. Im not going to answer the same question a thousand times. Duqsene (talk) 17:51, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Duqsene, alright then I will invite other editors or take it to RFC since there is no interest from your side to engage in a dialogue by bringing convincing points or by criticizing points listed above. Instead, you prefer to keep on removing sourced content that says "probably Amharic" by repeatedly saying "Don't add content about Ifat on Shewa Sultanate" and also by criticizing the editor by saying "English issue" and "don't understand". You have brought issues we had in Abyssinian people article and if this has got to do with that then see WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND. Anyways, before I summerise this discussion I want to get one confirmation:

Above I have listed multiple reasons as to why it's important to add content about Ifat's inhabitants and your reason for not including them is because "Ifat's inhabitants are not inhabitants of Shewa Sultanate".

Do you agree that being the summary of our discussion and being forwarded for other editors to have their say? I am asking that question so it helps me summerise the discussion in WP:GOODFAITH. Answering the question shows you are here to build an encyclopedia by discussion and consensus and comply with WP:NOTHERE. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 10:32, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

1. Amharic didnt exist until 13th century. 2. Ifat sultanate is not Shewa sultanate. There's no need to continue discussion its better to ask for outside opinion. Duqsene (talk) 19:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Duqsene, I have questions on two of your reasons.

1) This Source says Amaharic existed by 1050 AD (Shewa sultanate existed between 896-1285). Do you not accept this source's conclusion?

2) This source says Ifat was part of Shewa Sultanate. Based on this source do you not agree the inhabitants of Ifat being also the inhabitants of Shewa sultanate? Note that the history and inhabitants of United states is made up of each states history and inhabitants.

Those questions help me summerise our discussion and determine where I take the issue. Per WP:NOTHERE please answer the question and show that you have interest to work collaboratively. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:04, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Are you refusing to ask other editors? Duqsene (talk) 22:33, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Duqsene, instead of continuously reverting, it will help in solving this issue if you can give your opinion to the two sources contradicting with your two reasons for removing contents — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 21:26, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

This discussion is not going anywhere, you have no consensus to add the material therefore stop reverting. If you cant find sources for your content, dont add it. Amharic can exist in BC thats not relevant to Shewa. Ifat is a different sultanate, as I said like the other user said, if you would like to go on wikipedia Amharic it might be better because there seems to be a language barrier. Duqsene (talk) 02:44, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Duqsene, earlier you said one of the reason for your oposition of Amharic inclusion is that it did not exist before 13th centuary AD and now you said "even if Amharic existed in any years be it 1 BC or 100 BC it will not be included". I think you are just here to opose the inclusion of Amharic if so see WP:Advocacy, WP:NOTHERE & WP:Battleground. Let me bring quotation from the source to discuss your response to the second question:

Shewan Sultans were deposed by the Walashma dynasity of Yifat, or Ifat (1285-1415), once Shewa's easternmost district. [21]

When you say "Ifat is a different sultanate" you did not bring any other source saying there was another Ifat at that time. Instead of trying to convince your POV by attacking the editor make a little effort to solve the issue by clearly stating why you do not beleive the Ifat Richard Pankhurst was talking about [22]was not the Ifat that was ruled by the Walasma dynasity which was part of Shewa Sultanate, as can be seen in the above quotation, and which later incorporated Shewa? Responding to this question, instead of contentiously reverting, could solve the issue here. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:56, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia works by following what the academic or news source implies not your own feelings and opinions. Do you have a link that says Amharic existed in 1095 AND it was spoken in Shewa? Otherwise combining multiple sources to push your chosen statement is not the way to go about. You fixed my error that said East Shewa Zone, I appreciate that. I suggest you follow the same procedure here. Duqsene (talk) 18:20, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

You again added Ifat description on Shewa, Shewa had collapsed by the time Al Umari visited. Why are you adding in Ifat on the wrong page? Shewa was a district of Ifat, then you need a source that says when Shewa was a district of Ifat they spoke Amharic. Not just a source that implies they were a district of shewa. Do you see the difference between the source I provided and the source you are using? My source analysed the Shewa Sultanate itself while your source analyzes a political entity that existed after the collapse of the Sultanate of Shewa which is Ifat sutlanate. Duqsene (talk) 19:29, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Sultanate of Shewa, book of genesis, Havilah?

• Duqsene, you added "According to the Book of Genesis, this was the region of the Havilah." However, the source you used doesn't mention Sultanate of Shewa. And Havilah is shown to be in Northern Somalia and not anywhere in modern Ethiopia boundaries. Do you have another source? otherwise this can be deleted. Authorityofwiki (talk) 19:36, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

On another page your claming Havilah shouldnt be used but now on this talk page you claim havilah is north. The source doesnt have to mention Showa sultante, I added it because it falls in the geographical location of where Havilah is. Zaila dominion extended far into the interior including harar. Zaila is also a blanket term for the region of Adal as is sourced on the Havilah article. Duqsene (talk) 22:23, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

The further I look into the source you provided, I question whether "Havilah" is just a word being applied indiscriminately on lot of regions. Also the Old Testament is not a Reliable Sources when it comes to Geography, History, or Ethnicity etc. The inccorect application of Old Testament names on the worlds nations and nationalities, territories during the 1500s-1800s does not qualify as a reliable Source and infact is Very Ambiguous. Havilah is too broad of a term to apply to Somalia, Ethiopia because according to your source, Havilah also applies to the Eastern Side of Arabia where Iran, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, etc. That is very ambiguous data. Authorityofwiki (talk) 22:37, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Showa was using the Zaila port. Duqsene (talk) 01:16, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

User:Srnec, why not change the phrase to, it sits on land identified with one of the locations of the biblical havilah? This would omit the assumption that shawa is mentioned in the bible. Historians also suggest that Zaila was key to the foundation of the Sultanate of Showa. [23] Duqsene (talk) 02:24, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

But the connection to Havilah is all yours. The Havilah–Zeila connection may be interesting, but it is not clear that it has anything special to do with Shewa. Srnec (talk) 02:26, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

References