Talk:Major airlines of the United States

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Current?

The article has a list of current major carriers. But, is there any guarantee that someone will edit the article when the list needs to be updated due to changes in the industry? Instead of "current", the article should use the "As of" followed by a date style. 206.53.197.24 (talk) 02:49, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Major Airline Definition

US DOT BTS (Bureau of Transportation Statistics) considers only revenue in its airline groupings, although it doesn't use the term "major".

http://www.bts.gov/programs/airline_information/accounting_and_reporting_directives/number_263.html Dusty.crockett (talk) 19:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The gray chart needs to be removed

This information is a list of the major certificated airline carriers with x amount of dollars of business.........not the independent affiliates and, express, connection, airlink, brands....

Suggestion chart be removed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.200.136.208 (talk) 12:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

World Wide View

Hi. I have tagged with article with {{globalize/US|date=June 2013}} due to the article only talking about US carriers and not airlines from other parts of the world. Thanks --JetBlast (talk) 22:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick Note

These are NOT mainline airlines. They use mainline sized aircraft though. I am sure previous edits were simply misguided by poorly informed though well intentioned.

I could be wrong though, perhaps Southwest Airlines or Virgin Airlines have subcontracted out flying to airlines that fly aircraft with less than 74-100 seats. I could have missed the latest news.

Frontier Airlines
JetBlue
Southwest Airlines
Spirit Airlines
Virgin America — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.32.152 (talk) 00:38, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

These are indeed mainline airlines in that they fly mainline-sized aircraft on their own behalf. Calling an airline mainline is not limited to network carriers that subcontract feeder flights to the regionals. Your understanding of the terms is completely wrong. As is your understanding of the Wikipedia manual of style, based on your other edits. Section headers are not to contain links and are not used in place of bulleted lists. Please review these items before continuing. oknazevad (talk) 01:23, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NO --- your understanding of mainline is incorrect it appears ... But personally I am not invested in your shortsightedness but am concerned when you misguide others along with your stalking — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.242.119 (talk) 05:23, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Revisit of Headings

I would like to seek consensus to change the headings. As of now, they are:

Mainline passenger
Regional airlines
Freight carriers

As of now, the first heading is called Mainline passenger. But regionals also carry passengers, so I'm not sure why this is left off in the regional heading. I suspect the odd repetitive rhythm that would have resulted from calling it Mainline airline is why they're not both just called "airlines". As it stands now they are clumsily mixed — "Mainline" is paired with "passenger" while "Regional" is paired with "airlines". I also suspect the reason why the third heading is called Freight carrier is the popular misconception that only airlines carry people. I suggest it be changed to the following:

Mainline passenger airlines   OR   Mainline passenger
Regional passenger airlines   OR   Regional passenger
Freight airlines              OR   Freight

Rationale: Switching to these newer headings would use the standard phrase airlines after one of the three distinctions (e.g., Mainline passenger / Regional passenger / Freight). OR for brevity, these could be narrowed down to just Mainline passenger / Regional passenger / Freight and drop the airline part altogether. The only problem with this might be the terminology of "regional" versus mainline. Are these terms outdated? It's illustrative to note that in the one DOT source the Major airlines of the United States article is based on, those particular distinctions have been abandoned.^[1] Also I noticed the discussion a few years ago regarding the name of the headings, and the use of WikiLinks with them. I'm wondering shouldn't these be changed as well (and by 'changed' I mean turned off). Anyone please chime in. Spintendo 18:10, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Either is fine by me. Brevity is good, so I cannot disagree with simply removing the word "airline" while adding "passenger" to the regionals for clarity. I'll take care of that. As for the wikilinks, WP:MOSHEAD is pretty clear about them not being linked, so I'll take care of that as well. oknazevad (talk) 20:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Chadwick, Jr., William; Gorham, Jeff (October 31, 2017). "Air Carrier Groupings 2018 (FY2017— #325)" (PDF). Washington, D.C.: Accounting and Reporting Directive of the Office of Airline Information, Bureau of Transportation Statistics — Department of Transportation. Retrieved November 15, 2017. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

"Big 4" inclusion in the article

The source provided for calling four of the listed majors as the "Big 4" was Reuters Breakingviews, which describes itself as the following:

Reuters Breakingviews is the world's leading source of agenda-setting financial insight. As the Reuters brand for financial commentary, we dissect the big business and economic stories as they break around the world every day. A global team of about 30 correspondents in New York, London, Hong Kong and other major cities provides expert analysis in real time.

The key words here are agenda setting, commentary and analysis which means the source is likely no better than an editorial from The New York Times, which would not be an acceptable source (or at least one requiring extreme discretion) per WP:RSEDITORIAL.

The other source provided, CNBC, does not even use the term "Big 4" -- it uses the term "four biggest carriers".

Oknazevad raises an excellent point when they state in their edit summary that the term "Big 4" is not one used by the US DOT.

The article's only subject is listing the airlines which meet the definition as put forth under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 241.04 - the air carrier groupings, in which, the term "Big 4" does not appear.^[a] Spintendo 03:08, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

^ Observers would be correct in noting that the term "major airlines" also does not appear under Title 14 of the CFR. However, the source linking the term "major airlines" to Title 14 of the CFR is Appendix E - Data Source and Accuracy Statements from the publication "Air Carrier Financial Statistics Quarterly", published by the Office of Airline Information of the U.S. Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS). That source states "Carriers are grouped as major, national, large regional, or medium regional based on their annual operating revenues. The thresholds were last adjusted July 1, 1999 and the threshold for major air carriers is currently $1 billion."^[1]

References

^ "Appendix E - Data Source and Accuracy Statements - TABLE 1-2. Number of Air Carriers, Railroads, Interstate Motor Carriers, Marine Operators, and Pipeline Operators". Bureau of Transportation Statistics. US Department of Transportation.

Agreed. We should remove that distinction. The concept of the “biggest” is already well covered by the Largest airlines in the world page. RickyCourtney (talk) 04:51, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Its hardly a single-source term; the sources are literally just the first two that pop up in a Google search of "big four airlines". And it is relevant; the combination of the four hold vastly larger market share than all other domestic airlines combined. Even individually, the currently smallest market share among the four (United at 12% of passenger miles) is over double the next largest (Spirit at 5.5%). The real reason for including it is that someone searching for the title of this article is likely to be interested in the commonly used narrower definition than the technical one used here. Keeping it as a short footnote satisfies both versions, and I thought it was an elegant solution to the issue. oknazevad (talk) 06:32, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"the commonly used narrower definition than the technical one" If the goal is to provide an explanation for the more "common definitions" akin to something like WP:COMMONNAME, then do we need to list the other 14 "technical, uncommonly-major" airlines? That technical distinction made by the DOT isn't market share, it's groupings by revenue past a certain figure ($1 billion - there is no "Group IV"). If your goal is to explain the difference between the two, like you did here, "four hold vastly larger market share than all other domestic airlines combined" the footnote, as it stands, doesn't say all that (it says only "considered as Big 4", but considered by whom? Reuters editors?) If there are other sources besides a Reuters editorial page, then let's have them here to look at. Spintendo 11:08, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found some sources that can be used for this. (No offense to your "Google search of the first two that popped up", but I thought if you're going to use this information, it should be from sources that don't get laughed out the front door.)

Ciliberto, Federico; Murry, Charles; Tamer, Elie (1 November 2021). "Market Structure and Competition in Airline Markets". Journal of Political Economy. 129 (11): 4. doi:10.1086/715848. S2CID 236307202.
Abate, Megersa; Christidis, Panayotis; Purwanto, Alloysius Joko (October 2020). "Government Support to Airlines in the Aftermath of the COVID-19 Pandemic". Journal of Air Transport Management. 89: 4. doi:10.1016/j.jairtraman.2020.101931. S2CID 221704313.

Both mention the 4 largest domestic US airlines. They are both recently published–which is required when you choose to use a definition that has been viable for less than 5 years–as opposed to the legal "technical" definition which hasn't changed in over 20 years.^[a] Spintendo 16:34, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're overthinking it. This article is about a technical definition promulgated by the relevant regulatory authority and should remain as such. The idea we should even consider jettisoning it is an overreaction.

But to also include a footnote that states essentially that the business press may use the term in a different way, as a synonym of the "Big 4" is not unreasonable and can help the reader understand why the technical definition and the press usage might not align. It serves readers, which is our purpose here. I'm not the one who added those refs, I just recognized them when I checked them. If you think there are better replacements, go ahead and replace them. oknazevad (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

^ The DOT's logic in using the now 20-year old metric of revenue as the deciding factor for determining a major airline, and not market share, is given as: "This system of accounts and reports is designed to permit limited contraction or expansion to reflect the varying needs and capacities of different air carriers without impairing basic accounting comparability as between air carriers."

Display of information proposal

I'd like to propose a different way of displaying the information on the page. Looking for feedback on this:

Group III airlines
- Mainline passenger
- Regional passenger
  - Envoy Air (subsidiary of American Airlines Group)
  - Republic Airways
  - SkyWest Airlines
- Cargo
  - Atlas Air
  - FedEx Express
  - Kalitta Air
  - Polar Air Cargo (subsidiary of Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings)
  - UPS Airlines
  - USA Jet Airlines

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Considered one of the "Big 4" largest US domestic carriers by market share.^[1]

I think this shows the relationships a bit better than the standard list. Since we have more than a handful of dedicated local editors who are interested in this page, I thought I'd propose it here and get everyone's feedback. Is this possible or is it completely unnecessary.... please feel free to share your thoughts. Please note, I'm trying to find a better reference for the big four claim per WP:STATISTA, so that will obviously be changing as soon as I locate one. Thanks for your feedback! Spintendo 02:43, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I don't see any real difference other than the unneeded and I desirable lines. oknazevad (talk) 00:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ Mazareanu, Elena (3 February 2023). "Domestic Market Share of Leading U.S. Airlines from January to December 2021". Statista. Archived from the original on 13 March 2023. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 14 March 2023 suggested (help)

[major-1] Chadwick, Jr., William; Gorham, Jeff (October 31, 2017). "Air Carrier Groupings 2018 (FY2017— #325)" (PDF). Washington, D.C.: Accounting and Reporting Directive of the Office of Airline Information, Bureau of Transportation Statistics — Department of Transportation. Retrieved November 15, 2017. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

[3] Observers would be correct in noting that the term "major airlines" also does not appear under Title 14 of the CFR. However, the source linking the term "major airlines" to Title 14 of the CFR is Appendix E - Data Source and Accuracy Statements from the publication "Air Carrier Financial Statistics Quarterly", published by the Office of Airline Information of the U.S. Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS). That source states "Carriers are grouped as major, national, large regional, or medium regional based on their annual operating revenues. The thresholds were last adjusted July 1, 1999 and the threshold for major air carriers is currently $1 billion."^[1]

[2] "Appendix E - Data Source and Accuracy Statements - TABLE 1-2. Number of Air Carriers, Railroads, Interstate Motor Carriers, Marine Operators, and Pipeline Operators". Bureau of Transportation Statistics. US Department of Transportation.

[4] The DOT's logic in using the now 20-year old metric of revenue as the deciding factor for determining a major airline, and not market share, is given as: "This system of accounts and reports is designed to permit limited contraction or expansion to reflect the varying needs and capacities of different air carriers without impairing basic accounting comparability as between air carriers."

[four-6] Considered one of the "Big 4" largest US domestic carriers by market share.^[1]

[5] Mazareanu, Elena (3 February 2023). "Domestic Market Share of Leading U.S. Airlines from January to December 2021". Statista. Archived from the original on 13 March 2023. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 14 March 2023 suggested (help)

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