Talk:Magazine (firearms)/Archives/2012/December

Clips are not Magazines

"Clip" should be removed from the synonyms, as a clip is NOT a magazine. 69.218.180.18 21:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Clip has become synonymous with magazine in common usage, though it's not a precise correct technical usage of clip which more properly is en-bloc clip or stripper clip etc. A clarification to that effect on the main page would be ok. However, it has been a couple of generations since people commonly encountered firearms loaded by en-bloc or stripper clips. While they haven't completely gone away (many military ammo packs ship to the field in stripper clips, in many calibers and many countries, though not universally), the only usage most firearms users or curious people are likely to encounter is as the synonym for magazine. Wikipedia isn't here to try and pedantically force the terminology back into precise dictionary usage... it has to reflect common usage to some degree as well, though noting the different dictionary meaning (see the clip wiki page for example) is a good thing. Georgewilliamherbert 22:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

But what IS the difference between a magazine and a clip?? Adam Marx Squared 06:31, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

A clip is a mechanical device that holds ammunition, but does not by itself feed the ammunition into the firearm mechanism. The two variations in common use are the:

• En-bloc clip used in the M1 Garand rifle, which is a sheet metal frame holding 8 rounds of ammunition, but which has no spring or feed mechanism. It's fit into a space in the rifle, and a spring and follower in the rifle force the ammunition up into the action.
• Stripper clip, which holds a stack of cartridges (5-10 typically) by their bases, and which is then used manually to load ammunition into magazines either externally or internal to the weapon. In the SKS rifle, for example, a 10 round stripper clip fits into grooves in the top of the action, and then you push down on the top of the stacked ammuntion. All 10 rounds are forced down into the internal magazine, and then you remove the empty stripper clip.

Magazines perform both the role of holding and feeding the ammunition into the mechanism. Georgewilliamherbert 20:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Relying on the dictionary to solve this is a bad idea. The dictionary is incapable of distinguishing where technical terms are at issue, because it's designed as a general work. Trekphiler (talk) 11:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Trekphiler -- Please refer to the section 'Clips can be Considered Magazines' for additional detailed agruments as to why/when dictionary definitions are appropriate and also about the evolution of linquistic definitions (namely as it applies to the term 'clip' from a technical perspective). Also, in Wikipedia, and especially in this case, such is the proper position when qualified by historical/techinical definitions; however, any/all widely used technical definitions must be included, not just one group's/person's narrow 'belief' of the definition. For instance, some argue that the only technical term for magazine is that it "...feeds the firearm..." (or other contrivance) because that is what they are used to hearing or believe to be true. Such is not appropriate in a neutral toned artical because such is not the only reasonable definition of magazines as they relate to firearms, and indeed this agrument has been a constant topic of discussion. If one defaults to historical and/or technical definitions then they must be accurate as to the context of those definitions, and the historical technical term for magazine is an 'ammo container' without other implications that arose from more modern useage. Now, there is nothing wrong with including the more modern usages -- but then you can't exclude other stongly held technical definitions, historical definitions, term evolution, and related terms (such as 'clip') which have become synonymous with the modern usage as relating to devices which perform the same function. More detail can be found in the 'Clips can be Considered Magazines' section.CrimsonSage (talk) 13:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Which may be why I'm not going to try & fix this problem... Trekphiler (talk) 18:57, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The article on Koalas makes a point that Koalas aren't bears despite being called koala bears by most people, so why the double standard? A clip is not a magazine, and therefore I'm going to edit the article right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.12.223 (talk) 01:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a reason to unilaterally modify the article against consensus. It's not even an applicable parallel, really: do any reliable sources call Koalas bears? Jclemens (talk) 02:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I think what you're not understanding is that calling a Magazine a clip no matter how many people do it is still inaccurate because by definition it is a magazine, not a clip, therefore I think the article should make a point that it is called a magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.12.223 (talk) 04:01, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

What you're failing to understand is that multiple reliable sources have called magazines clips, and multiple other reliable sources have said such usage is incorrect. You simply can't come up with a reliable source that says "clips are not maganizes" and settle the discussion, because we can't take a position when reliable sources contradict each other. Please read WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:OR before editing the article again. Jclemens (talk) 04:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

What you're failing to understand, is that they are not the same thing. Wikipedia even differentiated "clip" from "magazine", as Clip has it's own article. While magazines are popularly called "clips", they are not. The dictionary says they're not, wikipedia differentiates between them, and I have yet to see one reliable source calling a magazine a "clip" post the adoption of magazine-fed rifles by most of the world's armed forces. Simply asserting that "multiple reliable sources" have called magazines "clips" does not make your statement true, give us examples please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.224.250 (talk) 19:34, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

We just need to make it clear that it is a minority of users that refer to magazines as "clips", and press on. There are NO firearms periodicals that use the terms interchangably. In essence, the use of "clips" for what are actually magazines is just parlance that came home with returning veterans from WWI, WWII, and Korea that had been issued clip-fed rifles. Just because they did (and in decreasing numbers, still do) misuse the terms doesn't make it accurate or acceptable. Trasel (talk) 20:44, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The source that makes it clear the terms are used interchangeably is the NRA-ILA website. Unless you want to argue they're not a reliable source, the current wording--that the correct usage is disputed--stands. Jclemens (talk) 00:27, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, as a matter of fact I do dispute the NRA-ILA web page as a reliable source.. That is the *Legislative* arm of the NRA. The Technical arm of the NRA is represented by the editorial staff of The American Rifleman magazine, and THEY for at least the past 50 years have delineated the terms clip and magazine properly and consistently. Ditto for all the other gun periodicals such as Guns and Ammo and Deutsches Waffen Journal (DWJ). And, BTW, per Wikipedia standards, printed magazines take precedence over web pages as Reliable Sources. Trasel (talk) 03:24, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

So, how do you intend to prove a negative--that no reliable source anywhere uses the terms clips and magazines interchangeably? Leaving aside for the fact the assertion that common usage is quite sloppy, the assertion in the article as it has stood in the consensus version is that magazines are sometimes called clips. Period. It doesn't say that usage is technically correct, but there seem no end of people coming to this article every few months in an attempt to prove that such usage is wrong. Where is it Wikipedia's charter to take sides in technical linguisitc disputes? Hint: per NPOV, it's not our job to say something is right or wrong, just our obligation to point out that a dispute exists. Jclemens (talk) 05:37, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

[Outdent] If you look at my edit, I did not use judgmental terms like "wrong" or "incorrect". I merely stated that it is a minority of shooters that use the term "clip"--which, by the vast preponderance of references is indeed the case. This question has been "asked and answered" innumerable times in the Dope Bag section of the American Rifleman magazine and in many other firearms periodicals. It is made abundantly clear by numerous firearms reference books like Small Arms of the World by W.H.B. Smith. Diito for all of major shooting publications like Guns & Ammo, Handguns, Shooting Times, American Handgunner, Small Arms Review, DWJ, Gun World, Field and Stream, Gun Digest, and on and on.

Here are just a few references that might be apropos to add to the wiki piece:

Lets start with the New York Times getting the two terms right, way back in 1893: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9406E6DF163EEF33A25753C1A9609C94629ED7CF (OBTW, could you imagine the NY Times running a technical piece of military firearms developments, these days?)

Here are two articles that spell this issue out, forthrightly: The American Rifleman: "Clips, Chargers, Box Magazines" January 1976, p.72 The American Rifleman: "Lee-Enfield Stripper Clips" September 1993, p. 71

And there are umpteen supporting web references, such as: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1323705] http://www.dyerlabs.com/glossary/gun_terms.html http://www.thegunzone.com/clips-mags.html http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/clip.html http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IE.html

And for those that need visual cues: http://olegvolk.livejournal.com/116460.html http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/02/21/clip-vs-magazine/

Again: I'm just asserting that the use of "clip" is the minority usage, as these references show. Trasel (talk) 15:31, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

The semantic difference is quite simple: a clip feeds a magazine and a magazine feeds a firearm. Not all repeating firearms use a clip but they all do have a magazine or cylinder, in the case of revolvers.

Lots of people uninitiated to life on a farm use the word "cow" to refer to steers and bulls but the article on cattle quite clearly points out that this is not correct usage. We're not denying that people ignorant of proper firearms terminology often call a magazine a clip but rather pointing out the fact that it is as incorrect as calling an individual bovine with a penis a "cow".--SEWalk (talk) 18:22, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

SEWalk, you pretty much summed it up. The fact that incorrect use of terminology is common doesn't make it correct. May as well edit the whale entry to note that they're sometimes "controversially" referred to as fish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrewrstevens (talk • contribs) 08:10, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

A clip is not a magazine. A magazine is not a clip. That sentence needs removed, pronto. It's like saying a car is a motorcycle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.66.145.44 (talk) 01:36, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

It does not matter if a minority think a clip is a magazine: There are reliable references backing up the definition that a clip and a magazine are not synonymous. The purpose of any encyclopedia is to inform the facts, not consensus and certainly not wrong information. There is nothing wrong with stating that a magazine is often mistakenly called a clip or vice-versa as is the case on the clip page. Military personnel never call a magazine a clip or call a clip a magazine. Leave the definition to the experts in the know and leave it alone if you cannot back up the claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.149.18 (talk) 18:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

In the real world, if you walk into a gun store and ask for a Glock 17 "clip", the guy standing behind the counter won't give you a 20 minute lecture on definitions, he will simply sell you the "magazine".....If your in a firefight and you ask your buddy for an M16 "clip", he's not going to ignore you until you use the proper terminology, he will simply toss you a "magazine".....The simple truth, is that over time, terminology and definitions change. For example, there was a time when the word "clip" meant "a clasp or fastener" and the word "magazine" meant "a place to store gunpowder in a ship or fort".....If fact, the word "magazine" itself can also mean "a periodical containing a collection of articles, stories and pictures".....Frankly, this whole debate is boring....So, here's another simple truth, anyone who vandalizes this article will be reverted.....If you feels so strongly about your position that you're willing to lose your edit privileges and be permanently blocked, then make whatever changes that you feel nescessary....and, live with the consequences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.22.156.40 (talk) 18:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The highest selling dictionary in the US, Merriam-Webster which holds the top five spots in an Amazon search for dictionary defines a clip as "a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clip?show=1&t=1343034248 Why is this still a debate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montourage (talk • contribs) 09:06, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

This argument is nonsense. The Merriam-Webster definition itself differentiates between magazine and clip by stating that a clip is "a device to hold cartridges for charging the magazines of some rifles". The OED also directly differentiates between these two different technologies by stating " A receptacle containing several cartridges held together at the base for insertion bodily into the magazine of a repeating firearm." Also, I'm not sure about the formatting conventions for the definitions on the Merriam-Webster web site. Why does the part where the incorrect usage of the word not reside on a separate line for the entry? Why does it use an "also:" heading contained within the correct, and contradictory, definition. Regardless, descriptive linguistics don't really have a place in a technical article, and this entry is a technical article, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrewrstevens (talk • contribs) 08:37, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Clip is only a term used in the US to describe a magazine in the UK it is just magazine, or mag for short. A clip is used to hold the bullets prior to entering the magazine, such as a stripper clip (Fdsdh1 (talk) 21:36, 3 September 2012 (UTC))

Hickok45 just uploaded a great educational video outlining the differences between clips and magazines. While he isn't the be all and end all of firearms experts, he is very knowledgeable, and the video clip (pun intended) describes things is his usual straightforward manner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoSNHe413rY