Talk:MS-13/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

NPOV issues

I've marked this article NPOV. I don't think that this article in general and the lead in specific are places to talk about the current administration and their opponents' rhetoric on the subject. Those would go better on some more directly related page to the current presidency. Jtrainor (talk) 14:43, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

There is no "opponents' rhetoric" in the lede. It should obviously be mentioned in the lede that the party in control of the world's largest democracy has made this gang a core aspect of its messaging in campaigns and during policy debates. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:46, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

I rather disagree and think it's a violation of WP:UNDUE. The article is supposed to be primarily about the subject matter and not about the current administration in the US's policies on the subject. Jtrainor (talk) 20:07, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

This is about the subject matter. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:34, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

I came to this article with little background information about MS-13, just yesterday. As I read through it, I thought, "This article doesn't seem NPOV in places where it mentions President Trump." Not that I disagree with the points about Trump making statements that may lack evidence, but the way it is presented seems to have a vendetta of sorts against Trump. Anyways, I am just sharing my thoughts about the way the information is presented, not the information itself. So I concur that the article could use some cleanup for NPOV. One thing would be to remove the word "rhetoric". That word is often loaded with NPOV issues whenever used, because whoever disagrees with a statement can stigmatize that statement as "rhetoric". Mikeatnip (talk) 16:31, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

There is no mention of "rhetoric" in the article. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Well, I"m busy this weekend, but I think I'm just gonna file an RFC about this, since there seems to be fundamental disagreement here. Jtrainor (talk) 17:58, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

• Concur that devoting half the lede to Trump in lede is UNDUE. My suggestion is that Trump stuff be moved to a subhead called something like "Political Attention."E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:55, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Concur with the above editor, while noting that such a subhead already exists. A sentence in the lead referring to the gang's relevance in American (U.S.) political discourse is probably appropriate, though, as it has become more or less the standard synecdoche for gang violence in the U.S. despite its relatively small numbers. CodyIsIn (talk) 22:52, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree. As well as RECENTism it fails to provide a global view. Why should a short term political dispute from one country receive so much focus? The article says the the USA isn't even the country with the most members or activity. Ashmoo (talk) 11:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree that Trump and the GOP don't belong in the lede (undue weight, too recent). Regarding the section "Republican Party discourse", I wish this section or another had more to say of Democrats' discourse, or notation of lack of discourse if they lack such. A145GI15I95 (talk) 05:35, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Also worth pointing out democrats and republicans both unanimously agreed it was a terrorist origination back in the day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.213.26.100 (talk) 19:47, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

This article is totally biased

I’m not American, but I was reading some news about MS13 and wanted to see what Wiki says about the gang. This Wikipedia article is totally biased! It says “trump falsely...” Come on, you think the world is that stupid. I come to read facts, not opinions. Please edit! 4honestwo (talk) 05:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

You are acting biased by saying that it's not false. Are you implying that Democratic politicians ARE members of MS-13? Even though I agree that the article is biased, there is NO evidence that proves that Democratic politicians are in fact affiliated with MS-13. (By the way, if you are referring to the deportation part, I recommend that you submit evidence that proves this to be true. JJPMaster (talk) 15:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Independent reliable sources state that significant claims made by the administration are false. It is therefore verifiable that significant claims made by the administration are false. The claims got enough coverage that they should be included. That they are false is clearly significant. - SummerPhD^v2.0 18:51, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Rivals:

Sombra Negra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.11.219.224 (talk) 22:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

To add any material to the article, we need independent reliable sources. Nothing to do here. - SummerPhD^v2.0 17:22, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sombra_Negra enough sources there.

178.11.219.224 (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

There are sources in that article. One or more of them might say what you are trying to say here. Find that source, add the material to the article and WP:CITE the source. - SummerPhD^v2.0 22:46, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Liberal Claptrap

"The Trump administration and Republican politicians have argued that hardline immigration policies are necessary to combat MS-13, and have for example justified the Trump administration's implementation of a family separation policy to deal with MS-13. There is no evidence that weak immigration enforcement or sanctuary city policies contribute to MS-13 activity. Republican politicians, President Trump in particular, have falsely accused Democratic politicians of supporting MS-13."

This whole section is unsourced and total liberal claptrap. The fact that this article is restricted and this section left up is an embarrassment to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.46.252.14 (talk) 15:02, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps the author of this comment could provide evidence that "weak immigration enforcement or sanctuary city policies contribute to MS-13 activity". Since they state that their concern is the lack of sources, I assume they are in a position to provide their own sources lest their comment be understood to be hypocritical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.130.173.59 (talk) 20:39, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion: Splitting "Political discourse" section to new article

Clearly, this section is not about MS-13. However, that isn't saying that it is useless information. The section could be branched off into a new article called "Use of Gangs in Political Discourse". The problem with this would be that it would end up as an absolutely terrible article, being a stub and reeking of recentism. 01:04, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Satanism

A number of articles link MS-13 with Satanism, for example this article in the Washington Post, this book review, this criminology paper. I don't see this topic reflected in the article and was thinking of adding something. Mr248 (talk) 05:22, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2021

you forgot to add Terrorism that gang is now also labeled as a terrorist organization with the likes of ISIS,Al Qaeda, etc

Criminal activities Trafficking (drugs, arms, human), racketeering, murder, money laundering, extortion, kidnapping, robbery, illegal immigration, battery, prostitution 2600:1702:2041:45B0:758F:CE14:BD94:B3BE (talk) 03:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 03:51, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

False Trump statement

The editor made false claims against President trump 45.47.136.168 (talk) 05:05, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

The entire section regarding Trump's claims is full of weasel-wording and conjecture, and should be cleaned up. Terms like "alleged" would be better than "falsely accused", etc...50.245.230.73 (talk) 21:30, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 September 2018 and 20 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jakovnewman.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:02, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Origins of MS-13

Mara Salvatrucha, also known as MS-13, is a transnational criminal organization with strong bases in the United States and Central America. MS-13 was born out of Salvadoran immigrants fleeing from civil war in the 1980’s. Many of these immigrants settled in Southern California and banded together in order to defend themselves from other minority gangs like the Mexican Mafia. This led to the growth of MS-13 in the United States. Not all of MS-13 members were American Citizens, meaning that when they were convicted of crimes, often they were deported back to their country of origin. These deported criminals brought with them their American gang culture, which led to MS-13 gaining a foothold in Central America. Since then, MS-13 has transformed into a large criminal group whose wealth and power has been ever growing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.160.90.41 (talk) 13:17, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Weapons

Gang members tend to use large-caliber weapons for their criminal acts since in many of their murders they have used firearms such as pistols, shotguns and even AK-47 and M16 assault rifles. In some cases they use knives (knives, machetes, etc.).

In their attacks, they usually make sure not to leave their victim alive, thus shooting several times at the body and head, if they use firearms. In the case of knives, they tend to mortally wound, even dismembering the person attacked. Rarely do gang members resort to hand-to-hand combat. In addition to using weapons for criminal acts of violence, they use them as contraband to sell and/or distribute them among their members.

Mara Salvatrucha has used a multifold of weapons, those which are mostly uncovered when members are arrested, killed, or apprehended. In 2010 in Palm Beach California, a suspect was found with a trunk containing full body armor, several other weapons, and a customized .50-caliber sniper rifle. This individual was uncovered as a known assassin wanted by Interpol. Between 2012 and 2013, about 500 weapons were handed over that were not functionable. Many of these assassins and other members are known for conducting military-like missions for Mara Salvatrucha to destroy enemy forces and competition. Their weapons of choice to kill were handguns, rifles, knives, machetes, and swords; some of these weapons being anti-tank weapons according to IBtimes. Weapons serve as an imperative component to its lethality and 50-year longevity.[[1]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.160.90.42 (talk) 13:32, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Women

Women are not talked much in gangs, but they do play a similar role to the men in MS-13. Each female is treated equally along with the men and are expected to take on the role of being in a gang. They are expected to perpetrate, commit violence, wear men’s clothing, all while handling the outside expected “female” role of cooking, caring for the men and children.<ref> https://insightcrime.org/news/analysis/centam-street-gangs-reject-rely-on-women-study/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tb12sevenrings (talk • contribs) 14:29, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

syntax/sense

" In 2018, the gang's US membership of up to 10,000 accounted for less than 1% of the 1.4 million gang members in the United States" - what does it mean? both numbers are about US. Verademillo (talk) 03:22, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

"Most dangerous and violent gang in the world" is unsupported

No citations or sources directly state that this gang is "the most dangerous and violent in the world". Maybe remove the mention or change to more formal wording TynoPk (talk) 10:35, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Gang statistics lacks citation

The assertion that "In 2018, the gang's US membership of up to 10,000 accounted for less than 1% of the 1.4 million gang members in the United States, and a similar share of gang murders" has no supporting citation, could one be provided? 2601:1C2:4280:5B0:9823:C528:38AE:4FAB (talk) 03:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Unsupported leading claim

The claim “The gang is often referenced by the United States' Republican Party to advocate for stricter immigration policies” has no citations, is timely/ may not be true over time even if it is now, and it is also leading because the sentence before suggests the gang size is small in numbers compared to all gangs in the US. This statement and it’s placement looks like political bias on an unsupported claim 100.2.166.215 (talk) 10:59, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

The Introductory Paragraph Citations

The initial paragraph for the page has a total of 0 citations. I'd wager statements need to be substantiated (even if common knowledge), and as a result, we should probably add citations to the MS-13 leading (introductory) paragraph. BuiltByBromine (talk) 04:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi BuiltByBromine, I see you're fairly new to Wikipedia. The lead (or lede) is the summation of the article and in that section it is citations are not needed, as the information should be referenced elsewhere in the article. See WP:REFLEAD for additional information. Hope this helps. Happy editing! soetermans. ^{↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK} 07:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! BuiltByBromine (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2023

Hi, requested addition to MS-13 gang criminal activity :

Human sex trafficking of women

Reference: I happened to meet a Texas Game Warden pulled off his state duties to help Federal Agents like the Border Patrol or other such agents !along the border. Many tragic things but in particular was human trafficking. This included finding womens' bodies left in desert as I recall. But in particular. he said while he could not give details for security reasons, they had just raided an MS-13 gang who were holding women in cages.

I am a free Lance writer writing a promo piece for new movie Sound of Freedom, an action drama based on true story of Tim Ballard who has dedicated his life to rescuing sexually trafficked children as young as 3 - 5 years. Far more serious than most people realize. Thanks! Aleithia888 (talk) 13:32, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:28, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 January 2024

In "Publicized Crimes > Cases", the article states:

In 2011, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in New Haven, Connecticut, was vandalized several times with the "MS-13 tag" and "kill whites" in orange spray paint.[150]

All web search results for this claim go to links copying the Wikipedia page. The linked citation goes to a family guy clip about Peter Griffin joining a gang on a make-your-own newsfeed site. This is obviously vandalism, and should be removed. Tttttag (talk) 22:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Actually, on further research, it seems that this event did happen. The citation should still be changed to not a family guy clip. Also, the event happened in 2008 and not 2011. https://www.newhavenindependent.org/article/vietnam_memorial_defaced_again — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tttttag (talk • contribs) 23:02, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done PianoDan (talk) 17:18, 1 February 2024 (UTC)