Talk:MGWR Class D-bogie

Article Improvement

On reading this article I am inclinded to think it *may* focus a little too much in places on the 6 D-Bogie conversions and not sufficiently on the D Class as originally built which was substantially large. As only the D-Bogie conversions lasted into the GSR era the Mahon/Clements focuses on these, not on the the original D Class which were all scrapped or converted by 1924. There is information in the article not backed by Mahon/Clements ... this may be from Rails to Achill by Beaumont which I do not have access to however it is only implied this used in relation to Livery. I do have access to another book by Ernie Shepherd which collaberates some of the information not in Mahon/Clements but there is information in this article not in either. One option would be to split to two articles, D Class & D-Bogie Class though I am inclined to keep both together in the first instance. Listing the Locomotives and their names might be a useful improvement as a start off.Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:13, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I added a table for all 39 MGWR D Class locomotives and the references used to complete it. I am increasingly minded the article was, and to some extent is, focused to be about the MGWR D Class locomotives that were converted to bogies 4-4-0. Options for development then become:-

• Copy this article to e.g. MGWR Class D-bogie (A term used by Shepherd) and then redevelop this article to 2-4-0 D- Class. The name for the D-bogie cannot remain and the 2-4-0 has priority ownership of the MGWR D Class name.
• Extend this article to cover both 2-4-0 and 4-4-0 (It covers the 2-4-0 only as necessary history for the 4-4-0).

I am slightly more tended to go for the first option so I am not going for the second option which might be disruptive to the former option. Djm-leighpark (talk) 20:56, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposal: rename to MGWR Class D-bogie

Proposal to rename this article to 'MGWR Class D-bogie'. (This is the designated name in Ernie Shepherd's isbn: 1-85780-008-7 p.88) Actions:

• Develop draft replacement MGWR Class D specifically covering the 2-4-0 non rebuilt locomotives at 'User:Djm-leighpark/MGWR Class D' (WIP)
• Rename current 'MGWR Class D' to 'MGWR Class D-bogie' (MGWR Class D becomes a redirect).
• Install content from User:Djm-leighpark/MGWR Class D over redirect article MGWR Class D (copy/paste).
• Apply certain corrections to MGWR Class D-bogie article and reduce/correct references to earlier class D.
• Adjust: Template:Ireland Steam Locomotives to add MGWR Class D-bogie to group 9
• Fix attributions. {Minor attributions from anyone User:Djm-leighpark/MGWR Class D may be lost}

Because I have limited bandwidth and a limited timescale for access to resources I will do this on a WP:BOLD basis possibly within 24 hours. Reasons for not having a merged article include: Original Article was targetted at D-bogie only; 2-4-0 and 4-4-0 in same article do not mix well; Some errors and citations issues in the existing article might take some weeding out ... and perhaps most of all I am just generally more comfortable with two articles and I think the result will be better and easier to maintain.Djm-leighpark (talk) 21:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

This move has been completed and appropriate post move editing has been done. There remains some issues with this (the D-bogie) article, perhaps especially with the lead section (failed experiment may be WP:SUBJECTIVE .. it could simply have been a cheap proof of concept for 4-4-0 prior to A-Class (that is my opinion) however it is certainly citable of poor steaming and being under-powered for intended work on Sligo line ... I think one source refered to the blue livery as the experiment that failed) and I hope to address these shortly with citable referencing. I also now have access to 3 books and hope to be able to address these shortly with a series of edits.Djm-leighpark (talk) 17:44, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Article Concerns

I now for a short while have access to the books of (Beaumont, Shepherd and Clements/McMahon).

• Design and historical development Section
  • The key concern areas is whether Atock designed the 4-4-0 conversion, or if influenced by Cusack. The problem is the statement strongly attributing to Atock is not cited(but in my opinion likely). Shepherd p.88 says Atock had an aversion to bogies. It's also notable Clements/McMahon p.181 indicates Team Atock's significant other half James Rowe died in 1899 (and that to may have been influential). I *think* I've seen an forum article indicateing Atock had signed a design diagram in 1899.
  • It does not appear citable that the design was meant to be an improvement on Class K ... though it is citable class K was more powerful (Class K itself a development of class D ... sources variously implying new build or rebuild of earlier class D). The specs may imply (I am not technical) D-Bogie was always going to be less powerful than K.
  • At risk of WP:ORIGINAL it would seem likely the idea was to trial a quick(and cheap) 4-4-0 conversion to proof of concept try out 4-4-0 before the major MGWR Class A build in 1902. Class K had probably stretched 2-4-0 to the limit and 4-4-0 would be needed for an increasing more powerful and fast passenger locomotive. The Beyer Peacock batch at 20 years old were due renewal/replacement anyway so would have been an obvious choice.
• Livery Section
  • The served Achill line reliably to the last may not be citable, indeed Beamont p.97 indicates #532 is notorious for bad brakes. That said on p.76/77 #530 operated the last public train 30 September 1937 and cleared the line of empty wagons on 1 October 1937.
  • Missed the fact Wolfdog was the lead engine for the 'failed' blue livery (Beaumont p.93). May have missed a gloss black repainting from 1916 ... would need to check non Beaumont References.

Djm-leighpark (talk)