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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Merging

Plagiarism aside, this article is Doom, not his instrumental album. I'm going to remove the merge notation.--TheGrza 05:32, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

KMD

KMD involved three members: Subroc, Zev Luv X, and MC Onyx. Also, the anagram was recorded as "either/or" the two abbreviations, but in fact the meaning was changed at a certain point. I updated both items.

(Asher14 22:28, 4 March 2006 (UTC))

Discography

We can't talk about doom's commercial opportunities without mentioning his appearance on De La Soul's 2004 release. I added it.

We should also consider breaking this article into sections like Biography, Discography, Trivia, etc., like other artist pages are--Asher14 22:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

He's produced several tracks on the new Ghostface Killah album "Fishscale"

3rd Base's Cactus Album

The Cactus Album wasn't released on Elektra, but rather on Def Jam.

  • if you see something wrong with this or any article, you should just go ahead and change it instead of writing about it on the talk page.


here's the link in case y'all wanna check: http://www.discogs.com/release/173103 Wathiik 20:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

small edit

5% are by definition unIslamic so I corrected that

By your interpretation... After all, strict Sunnis and Shites would say the very same thing about a Sufi--if not each other. I'm not going to bother looking into whatever you changed, but, if the 5%ers consider themselves to be a Muslim movement, they are a Muslim movement. That's just the way it works. --(Mingus ah um 03:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

mask

Should it be mentioned that MF DOOM's mask is more or less the same mask that Russell Crowe wears in Gladiator? and that it looks nothing like the mask that Dr. Doom wears? and i think he started wearing the mask before Gladiator came out? djumbrosia 16:04, 3 June 2006


  • it is the mask from 'Gladiator'. 'helmet of Maximus' is the actual name for the style. DOOM did, however, wear a Dr. Doom style mask before his current one. -Eq

Somebody removed my thing about MF DOOM's mask being designed by Lord Scotch http://www.last.fm/music/MF+Doom/+wiki Look under the paragraph birth of MF DOOM.

Music videos

Perhaps a Videos section at the bottom of the article is in order? My Favourite Ladies, for example. -WindFish 02:26, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Well, that is his only video, I believe (besides ATHF, in which he didn't really appear), and both are pretty unremarkable. I don't think it's a necessity, but I wouldn't disagree to it. -The Hams 21:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • He has done many more videos, such as "Benzion Gum", "I Hear Voices", "?" and "Dead Bent". I think a video section would be good. -Gangstadane 17:15, 17 June 2006 (GMT)
  • Definately need a video section. So many good videos from DOOM. 'Mr. Clean' is a personal favorite -eq
Plus, he did a few videos when he was in KMD MrBlondNYC 15:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Title

Wouldn't it be more useful to have this article at MF Doom, under Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)? He seems to be referred to as Doom (2.2 million google hits) much more often than Dumile (22,000 hits). Flowerparty☀ 03:25, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

    • No, I say Daniel Dumile, because he has many, many aliases (King Gheedora, King Ghidra, Zev Love X, Madvillain, Viktor Vaughn, the Supervillain, DOOM, MF DOOM, DangerDoom, and I'm probably missing a few) -The Hams 21:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Agreed. He has so many aliases, "MF Doom" and all of his other names can just redirect here. MrBlondNYC 15:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This article is largely stolen from this page: http://www.starpulse.com/Music/MF_Doom/Biography/

I think it may be that that site actually stole it from here, not the other way around aubrey 20:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

spelling in KMD

It alternates, but it is more commonly spelled with Love. I'll fix it now. --Mikeazorin 02:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation

If DOOM's surname is of South African origion it would more than likely be pronounced Doo-Mee-leh. The name is also similar to the zulu word for hello, Dumela.

of course DOOMulay is an Anglicized pronunciation/spelling... Wathiik 07:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep, agreed, but due to him having grown up in the US that is probably how he himself pronounces his name.

  • Yeah, he says "Doo-muh-lay" in the song El Chupa Nibre by DangerDoom on the album The Mouse & The Mask, and then again on El Chupa Nibre Remix by DangerDoom on the album Occult Hymn EP. It's doom-uh-lay. -The Hams 21:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • But on countless other songs, he pronunces it the American way. -Gangstadane 17:17, 17 June 2006 (GMT)


  • 'doo-muh-lay' is the 'American' pronunciation. doo-mee-leh is the pronunciation of origin.


He also mentions it on DOOMSday, numerous times, where he clearly pronounces it doo-mah-lay. Guess it was never too much of a mystery.66.120.226.1 14:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC) ShinigamiDOOM

MF DOOM vs DangerDoom

Does anyone know if DangerDoom is a seperate character than MF DOOM or if DangerDoom is just the name of the collaborative work itself?

Dangerdoom is the name of the "team" of MF Doom and DJ Danger Mouse - similar to how MF Doom and Madlib go by the name Madvillain when they work together. SubSeven 00:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
However, in some songs DangerDoom is also referred to as a person. aubrey 20:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
eh? which ones??? W guice 13:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The Master Shake and Minoriteam skits on T.M.A.T.M. and Occult Hymn. It's just a play on the "villian" moniker. D4S 18:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Dangerdoon is a seperate character, it is the mouse with the mask on.

Word Up

Yo on the real, this bio is basically the whole story. Ya'll taking bout changing this bio-- for what? Because it lacks a few citaions? All I read was the raw deal, straight up, and accurate. That ish is comprehensive and informative. Keep it real. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.73.236.206 (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

WP:NPOV and WP:ATT CanbekEsen 01:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Agreed —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArrowRoot (talk • contribs)

This page is about Daniel Dumile. Although he is associated with acts such as Madvillian and DANGERDOOM, they shouldn't be listed here, but instead at the Madvillian and DANGERDOOM pages. Also, a link to his complete discography isn't needed here, because there's a whole other page with all of Dumile's works. CanbekEsen 19:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yo, im a wikipedia nooby, but this article is fine, and all those links are related and relevant, please stop trying to change things, because your just cutting back on info. The discography page contains all official material Daniel Dumile has done and associated with, including songs he has appeared on.—Preceding unsigned comment added by ArrowRoot (talk • contribs)
Let's try this again. Daniel Dumile's article itself should contain links to things that are related to Dumile. This, however, does not mean you should link everything related to Dumile. Madvillian, DANGERDOOM, and Dumile's discography have their own articles, thus, such links should be listed at those pages. The individual articles of the ones listed above are already alluded to throughout the Dumile article, so you do not need extra external links for articles you already have, thus, there is no "cutting back on info". I do suggest you take a peak at links normally to be avoided and m:External links. CanbekEsen 01:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Well I disagree, so if im someone new to Doom, and i wanna check the official sites, i gotta click on DangerDoom, go to that page, then go down to the links and click it... naww, best to keep it on one page, cause its one guy. It keeps it less confusing to have it all on the same page, so people new to DOOM can see its all one guy. Also, its less than 10 links, is it that big of a deal to have them at the bottom of the page? I dont think so...—Preceding unsigned comment added by ArrowRoot (talk • contribs)
Say what? If someone is new to DOOM, how would they know about his collaborations? DANGERDOOM is DOOM and Danger Mouse, not just DOOM. Madvillian is DOOM and Madlib, again, not just DOOM. That's why those links are linked on their respective pages. CanbekEsen 08:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
You think i dont know that? This page is about Daniel Dumile it should include links to all and everything related and official, not just the MF DOOM sites. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArrowRoot (talk • contribs)
Yeah, there are already links on this page to the Wikipedia pages of everything related to him. Daniel Dumile is MF DOOM, The Super Villain, Viktor Vaughn, King Geedorah, Metal Fingers, Metal Fingered Villain, and Zev Love X. Yes, Madvillian and DANGERDOOM are related, but as I've said several times already, they have their own WP pages and those links should be listed at those pages. CanbekEsen 00:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
They can have links on those pages too, but this article is about him as a whole, is it so wrong to have 7 links to his official pages at the bottom? I think the more info the better. Whats the harm done if they are there?—Preceding unsigned comment added by ArrowRoot (talk • contribs)
Did you even read this? Wikipedia pages are not link repositories. Just because it's related to the subject matter does not mean you have to link it. I've brought this up on the WP:BIO talk page at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography#Daniel_Dumile. CanbekEsen 19:11, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
No, i dont need to bother to read that, this is about 7 links, that are all related, and have been here for a while now, now because you dont like it, your going to remove them all? It not a big deal.—Preceding unsigned comment added by ArrowRoot (talk • contribs)
I have nothing against it. That is how Wikipedia works. It's not my view, it's just that Wikipedia have policies, and it encourages users to work by it. Just because you can add it doesn't mean you should. This is an encyclopedia that should contain information on the subject, and that means whatever is in these links should have a part in the article. Saying you don't need to read what I've linked for you means you are ignoring whatever policies have been set. You professed you were new to Wikipedia, and I believed it would've been helpful to shed light on some things for you by linking m:External links and WP:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided as they are helpful guides to editing on Wikipedia.
Do you not understand simple arithmetic? Daniel Dumile = MF DOOM. Madlib + Daniel Dumile = Madvillian. Danger Mouse + Daniel Dumile = DANGERMOUSE. The article Daniel Dumile concerns Daniel Dumile. As I've said many times before, Wikipedia prefers that there not be a large external link section, and that it should contain links directly related to the subject. Want to learn about his related stuff? There's an "associated acts" section right there in his infobox that links to the Wikipedia articles that Dumile is associated to. I wish not to continue this argument, which is why I'd posted it on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography#Daniel_Dumile. I hope that other users will share their opinions so we can come to a consensus, or at the very least comprimise. By the by, you can sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your message to mark your message instead of using the {{unsigned}} template. CanbekEsen 04:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
What does arithmetic have to do with Daniel Dumile? These links do have a part in the article, Daniel Dumile being part of/and associated with these groups. You Dont seem to understand the fact, example: that Daniel Dumile has an official website www.dangerdoom.com shared with Danger Mouse. And this article is about Him. By the way, I dont see you over at Danger Mouse's Wikipedia article with the same topic, as his page also links to the Dangerdoom site, and also has more External Links!! Would you call that a farm too? Why are you really here with this nonsense?, seems to me you just want to stir stuff up. The article is all fine and dandy, then you come rolling through, removing links and wanting a complete rewrite of the article. Im sorry, but thats just wack. Keep it chill man, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArrowRoot (talk • contribs)
You clearly do not understand how Wikipedia works. Sorry, but I will not argue with your ignorance. CanbekEsen 11:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
And You clearly do not understand how common sense works.—Preceding unsigned comment added by ArrowRoot (talk • contribs)

Official Site

MF DOOM's myspace site is given here, but I think his official site is http://mfdoomsite.com/ However, this doesn't seem to be updated anymore, just wanted to throw that out there.

mfdoomsite.com is owned and operated by hiphopsite.com, and it's also not been touched since 2004. DOOM's myspace is official and continues to be updated. I think that's his "official" site more than anything. MarcelloRubini 22:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:DOOM today.jpg

Image:DOOM today.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 07:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Example Dumile Lines

Why was this section removed, was there any actual reason, the section gave excellent examples of Dumile's style.

I actually moved them to the WikiQuote page as I thought it'd be better there. The WikiQuote link is in the external links section. CanbekEsen 19:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Naw, bring back the style section. Actual examples of lyrics is very different than an explanation of his style, and MF DOOM's style and lyrics is about 70% of what makes him distinctive from other rappers. You just took a pretty bare page and made even more bare. Bad edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathan B. Hall (talk • contribs) 05:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Personal Life

lacks any citations, and seems to be totally original research. fixxx? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.71.16.206 (talk) 04:17, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

One sentence copywrite needed

[1] that link explains -- anonymous ip —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.138.6.58 (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

MF Doom's relationship with MF Grimm?

I'm surprised that this article doesn't discuss MF Doom's relationship with MF Grimm, which started off with musical and personal collaboration but has grown into a fierce rivalry, culminating in Grimm dissing MF Doom with the song "Book of Daniel" on his recent triple CD, American Hunger. Derekawesome (talk) 21:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite/POV

I tried to go through and make some changes in the text for the first half of the article because it seemed very POV to me, and not very encylopedic. Also, a section was copied almost verbatim to the allmusic.com biography, which I've rewritten and referenced now. The rest of the article still seems very POV and there are some non-notable things in there. Another concern is the huge external link list. This needs to be trimmed to a couple links that follow the WP:EL guidelines. CanbekEsen 04:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, the "Style" section is still unencyclopedic and POV, in my opinion. Also, it is unreferenced. Thousandrobots (talk) 04:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Article title SHOULD be MF DOOM

The fact that the vast majority of his branding is as MF Doom (including on collaborations with others, Ghostface Killah being one of the more notable ones), and not as Daniel Dumile, the title should be MF DOOM. MC Chris isn't known primarily as Chris Ward, Cee-Lo isn't known primarily as Thomas DeCarlo Callaway, Bono isn't known primarily as Paul David Hewson...the list goes on and on. He's known as MF DOOM more than anything, including Daniel Dumile. It needs to be changed. DestradoZero 20:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It is difficult since he performs under different names and in collaboration with others under different names, but for his own solo work he is best known as MF Doom, so that should probably be the name of the article. Theshibboleth (talk) 21:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. (Still.) But it should be 'MF Doom', rather than all caps, which I assume is just a style thing. Flowerparty☀ 22:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
How would we go about changing the title of the article, then? The sooner, the better. DestradoZero 14:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
It's moved. I'll move the discography page too to match. Flowerparty☀ 18:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Assy McGee?

DOOM recently did some voice work as a character in [adult swim]'s Assy McGee. His other [adult swim] work is mentioned, so should this?--Sherwood-Nightshade (talk) 05:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

MF Meaning

"("MF" may stand for "metal face", or is otherwise widely accepted as standing for "Mad Flow") (MF Grimm/GM Grimm does not have a metal face)"

This information is incorrect. The MF in MF DOOM stands for Metal Face, as according to this interview: http://www.stonesthrow.com/madvillain/doom-metalsatin.html

Mad Flows is MF Grimm.


  • I've always been partial to "mofo" (to put it politely) myself, and I think that it is one of the "unofficial" definitions, but the "official" definition is "Metal Face" --DestradoZero 08:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
  • It isn't Mother Fucker (hey, it's an encyclopedia). It's Metal Face. That's the only real definition. That's what it was created as and how it was intended. -The Hams 21:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

He also uses it as Metal Fingers on the Special Herbs collections. aubrey 20:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, he also uses Metal Fingers on the Ghostface Killah album Fishscale.

He's stated in an interview that Grimm is Mad Flows and he sees MF DOOM as "mother fucking DOOM," "metal face DOOM," and "metal fingers DOOM".

"Mother Fucking Doom" would just be what Grimm would say if he thought Doom was really annoying. Some people think that. Tezkag72 (talk) 12:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Fake Show Accusations

I just read this and thought I'd check into it and looked around the web after I noticed there was no reference. I ended up finding a source and thought I would site this section, but realized I didn't know how to. So here is some corroborating evidence:

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown/2007/08/mf_doom_fucks_sf_wtf_went_down.php http://events.contracostatimes.com/events/show/61721421-Mf-Doom http://www.soulstrut.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=crates&Number=932807&page=0&fpart=all


This is totally unproven and appears to be the result of one angry fan. This is not corroborating evidence, it's only evidence of rumor. There are in fact videos of DOOM on this tour, all of them are him and do not sound like they were prerecorded. MarcelloRubini 21:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as im concerned this is proof watching the video of "him" blatently shows him at least lip syncing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.74.215.134 (talk) 20:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

After attending one such show it seems as though the performer was either lip syncing or using a backing track. The claims brought against DOOM are not only made by "one angry fan", but what appears to be several fans as well as an opening DJ. Videos from Rock The Bells significantly differ from the sound and style of DOOM's live performances in previous live recordings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.211.192.163 (talk) 08:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

http://ohmpark.com/2008/01/video-of-day-mf-doom-is-fraud.html has the venue itself backing up this claim. More than just "one fan" it seems, though I don't know whether this is enough to warrant inclusion in the article. -mrbartjens (talk) 10:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

DOOM himself confirms he sent impostors to shows (6th paragraph): http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/03/23/reclusive-rapper-doom-talks-new-lp-born-like-this-and-responds-to-fan-rage/ The_ted —Preceding undated comment added 06:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC).

Picture

I was wondering why there hasn't been a picture of Dumile in the infobox, whether it be Dumile himself as a young male, or Dumile as the character, "DOOM". Does him wearing a mask conflict with posting a picture of him that will actually stay on the page for more than 1 week before it gets removed? User:Mtirkmane 18:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Additions, editing. Also, requested renaming page "MF DOOM."

Did some mad editing--hope it works for everybody. Added in the '97-2002 years.

Could have been more elegant on the text in places--after three hours of this my brain is tired.

Wanted to stress how notable it is that DOOM makes most of his own beats, and moreso that he is considered one of the best producers out there among heads, as well as one of the best MCs. Just kinda dropped it into the middle of the chronology. If anybody comes up with a prettier solution, good on ya!

Also feel the birth of the DOOM character, as connected with Dr. Doom, could be expanded a bit more--linked to the quote about how the music industry "disfigured" him (a part of the canonical Doom-DOOM backstory)--and maybe touching on the old Fantastic Four cartoon, etc., appearances of Dr. Doom that Dumile samples throughout his work. The original editor did a good job of getting it started--I couldn't stitch it together much more today.

Also, and the first talk section alludes to this, too, hopefully we can get this page moved to "MF DOOM" (instead of "MF Doom"). As we all know, Dumile has used all caps since the inception of the DOOM persona.... ;b Afn33282 (talk) 21:40, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move (2009) Move "MF Doom" to MF DOOM

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 07:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

MF Doom → MF DOOM — As discussed on this (talk) page, and on , Mr. Dumile has stated several times in his songs that "MF DOOM" should be capitalized in full. A notable example is the song "All Caps" from 2004's "Madvillainy" ("...just remember all caps when you spell the Mad [/man/man's] name"). see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALL_CAPS_%28song%29#Background

All commercial releases back to earliest (Fondle 'Em imprint) show full capitalization. Tried to move it myself, but page "MF DOOM" already exists as a redirect page, and didn't want to proceed as I didn't quite know what I was doing past that point, and didn't want to make a mess. Thank you. Afn33282 (talk) 18:45, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name of page to be MF DOOM

Why isn't the name of this article MF DOOM instead of Daniel Dumile. I'm pretty sure he is more well known by MF DOOM than his real name. BishopTutu 04:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

If he's most famously known as "MF DOOM" then the article name should be MF DOOM. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit me § Contributions ♣ 06:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Except he goes by wide array of pseudonyms, both individually and as part of collaborations; determining which one is the most famous would probably be a fool's errand, while his real name is a constant. It's much simpler this way isn't it? Driller thriller 21:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, well, the article says otherwise... ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 06:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I see your point, but the moment this page is moved some bright spark will insist that Wikipedia doesn't care about how Dumile wants to be known and the page'll be moved to MF Doom and then no-one will be happy... Driller thriller 21:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy for the name to stay as Daniel Dumile. The article explains clearly how he's used his aliases - I see no problem Powelldinho 21:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The name's fine...before it was at MF Doom...I think it's better as Daniel Dumile.67.71.189.85 11:00, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I also think it should be MF DOOM. Other more famous people whose names are listed on wikipedia under the famous stage name: Ringo Starr, Sting, RZA, GZA, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Wavy Gravy. None of these people have had their names legally changed, and some of them (RZA, ODB) are known under other names as well.MarcelloRubini 22:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The title of the article should be MF DOOM. It should be MF Doom over just Doom because that has the most recognition for people trying to find the article; using what might be considered his proper name(now DOOM, considering Born Like This), would only confuse search results because of the ambiguity of the term "Doom". More importantly, though, MF Doom needs to be entirely capitalized, to MF DOOM. The lyrics of MF DOOM's songs are insistent, to the point that one of his songs is entitled, "All Caps". It is a little strange, and slightly insistent, but I don't think it's logical to be against it (even though I share distrust of all caps just because of the whole annoyance factor - anybody who has even been to a forum of any kind can tell you that). If the framework we should apply is like the rubric for other artists, a name is just a name- other artists are no more forced to follow proper grammar and other language and writing rules in their names than MF DOOM is, and some have chosen highly eccentric names. As MarcelloRubini points out, stage names are acceptable titles - and DOOM is only that, a stage name. The insistence on capital letters is just one of DOOM's many quirks, but should be respected as a stage name. Who has the power to change the title from MF Doom to MF DOOM? What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fitz886 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, his name should appear MF DOOM, not MF Doom. As he said "just remember all caps when you spell the man name". I think we ought to respect that. 92.41.251.136 (talk) 19:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

In fact, the wiki for All Caps actually uses "MF DOOM". MF DOOM redirects to MF Doom, so there is an inconsistency in how wikipedia refers to his name. I think this page needs to be changed to reflect the All Caps page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Caps_%28song%29 92.41.251.136 (talk) 19:06, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Nastrodoomus

Shouldn't the Nastrodoomus albums be removed since they were unofficial bootlegs? Just asking.

re: Well, if it is related to the topic, wouldn't it be better to keep it, but mention that it is unofficial? People interested in the topic can wonder what the deal is with the Nastrodoomus albums, informing them about it seems like useful for the article.--Key to the city 17:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Nastradoomus was not made by MF DOOM or released by any of the record labels he's associated with. It was made by another DJ using Nas acappellas and MF DOOM instrumentals and released, if I remember correctly, by hiphopsite.com. To add Nastradoomus to the MF DOOM discography would be an invitation to add any MF DOOM bootleg, mix, or mash-up to the list - and there are many. It should not be on the discography.

IIRC Nastradoomus wasn't even made by one guy, it was by the hiphopsite.com community as a whole. aubrey 20:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a small section entitled "Notable Bootlegs" or some such similar name could be created in order to encompass the info about Nastrodoomus? What do you guys think, would this work? 92.41.251.136 (talk) 19:03, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Acording to MF DOOM's own website (http://www.metalfacedoom.com/ -> http://www.stonesthrow.com/doom/discography) they do list nastradoomus as an album under "RELATED, PROMO, MISC.". Shouldn't the official website be enough to count it as his album? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.214.52 (talk) 00:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

'Imposter' shows

In 2007 MF DOOM reportedly used stand-ins disguised as himself for shows multiple times. There are also references to this in 2009 and 2010. Essentially, another performer <not MF DOOM> appears at the show with the mask, performing to lip-synched audio. No custom ad-libbing to the venue or variation on lyrics at all is added which raised suspicion.

"Everything that we do is villain style," Doom said in an interview. "Everybody has the right to get it or not get it. Once I throw it out, it's there for interpretation. It might've seemed like it didn't go well, but how do we know that wasn't just pre-orchestrated so that we're talking about it now? I tell you one thing: People are asking more now for live shows and I'm charging more, so it must've worked somewhere...when you come to a Doom show, come expecting to hear music, don't come expecting to see." (Rolling Stone)

There are many many references to this, it deserves mention in the article. Not only of the reported incidents of this occurring, but also of the varied public acceptance of this charade, one opinion stating the behavior supports the villain's character and the other is that the deception hurts fans and essentially rips them off, as well as show promoters. _ morde t .. 23:35, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


Reasons a capitalized name will continue to be rejected

I was attempting to make a case for capitalizing DOOM because like several people, I felt it was warranted. Unfortunately it became apparent why on Wikipedia this would be poor form. To remain encyclopedic, we cannot entertain stylization unless standards call for it, such as acronyms (like MF). MOS:CAPS will confirm this. In the past various attempts were made, including flirting with the inconsistency of a capital title, but standard case in the article body. At other times efforts were made to revise every occurrence on most pages to the frequently requested style. This is fairly disruptive to readability and cannot be supported by any number of standards. It is also unclear why we should make an exception for this article, but not others. In the interest of quality we need to move on and correct any remaining occurrences. Pixel Eater (talk) 23:00, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Requested move (2013) to Daniel Dumile

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 16:23, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

MF Doom → Daniel Dumile – Dumile has used multiple stage names in his careers. Daniel Dumile is effectively the only "permanent" name we have for this artist. LukeSurl t c 12:54, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose - Yes he has used various alias, but he is best and most commonly known as MF DOOM. MF Doom is the clear WP:COMMONNAME, MF Doom turns up 4.5 million GHits and thousands of GoogleNews Hits, Daniel Dumile turns up 127 tousand GHits, while only 8 google news results and good chunk of the results are about other people with that name. All his other alias turn up around the same amount, so they do not even come close to his most commonly known name which is MF Doom. STATic message me! 15:35, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose Covered under WP:COMMONNAME. If Dumile would choose to record under his real name, then I would support this move. But even then, Dumile has used MF Doom for the majority of his career. I'm going to oppose. Jasonstru (talk) 21:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose I believe this has come up before. Agree with the above. His government Dumile maybe only after he passes... JesseRafe (talk) 02:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 7 February 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 13:59, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

MF Doom → MF DOOM – This man's name is capitalized, as in "DOOM you sick, he said true blue acoustics". No really though, it is capitalized to the best of my knowledge according to what of his catalogue that I own, and also according to the rest of the article. Bossanoven (talk) 04:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

All Caps

I understand the reasons for knocking back the stylisation of MF DOOM and leaving it as "MF Doom" as it is in the wiki rules, and I have read all the discussions explaining why, but today I came across the wiki page of k.d. lang. Why does her name get to be stylised, instead of forcing hers to be "K.D. Lang"? Anyone know? If there's no reason I propose we push another move to all caps. Jameshjdavies (talk) 06:43, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

The existence of something being wrong somewhere doesn't license something done correct to be undone. JesseRafe (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
@JesseRafe: I don't see anything saying that this is wrong. Was there prior talk page discussion on the name style or a MOS rule I'm missing? – 🐈? (talk) (ping me!) 21:57, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
How many times does this need to come up? Please read any of the above discussions, and if those are not enough, please consider clicking on MOS:CAPS. It's really not that difficult. To wit, "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization. Most capitalization is for proper names or for acronyms. Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is a proper name; words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in sources are treated as proper names and capitalized in Wikipedia." MF Doom is regularly called such in print media, even on his own Facebook page -- [2], etc. Keep the convention. Similarly with why we don't say "NaS" because that's the way it was written on some album covers and some fanboys take it to heart. Also, whatever the above editor said about k.d. lang couldn't be more irrelevant because that is not an issue of capitalization at all. That is minisculization, like bell hooks, or, for a period of time, dead prez. Capitalization for stylistic reasons is a completely different affair and treated thusly. JesseRafe (talk) 22:08, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Nationality

If he was born in London wouldn't he be a British Hip Hop Artist? (in reference to American Hip Hop artist in Introduction) 12.25.217.139 18:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC) He raps in the states. He's American. Kinda like Slick Rick. -Rob

He's an American citizen (and has been one throughout the duration of his career), therefore I would catagorize him as an American artist. --(Mingus ah um 03:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

Mingus, do you know that he's an American citizen? As a long time follower of DOOM I believe he's not an American citizen. Aside from a Madvillain show in Toronto, Canada in 2004, he's not known to have ever performed outside of the U.S.A. A European tour in 2004 was cancelled and the reason cited on mfdoomsite.com was "passport/citizenship problems".

Correct me if i've read something wrong, but never performing outside the US to me is more of an indication that he would have citizenship rather than the other way round W guice 13:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the reason is that he doesn't have a green card, so if he leaves he can't reenter the country legally. 85.166.239.43
His citizenship is up to speculation, but it's known that he was raised in the USA and that his entire career including all shows (except for one in Toronto) have taken place in USA. MarcelloRubini 04:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

He's not an American citizen, but he spent most of his life in New York. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpiritMachine (talk • contribs) 05:37, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

I feel that being born in england is a totally insignificant part of his life and doesnt even deserve being mentioned in the intro. He spent almost his whole life and all of his career in america. Regardless of if he is legally a citizen or not, his identity is completely american. Introducing him as english in the first sentence seems pointlessly misleading.

Edits reverted with no explanation

I made a series of edits on 5 May under the IP address 186.30.65.165. They were all removed with no explanation. I believe I can justify each one of my edits.

  • The mF deM is a valid DOOM album. There are variety of sources which can be found on the internet which confirm that MF DOOM and Dem Atlas both collaborated on this album. I included citations.
  • John Robinson (AKA Lil Sci of Scienz of Life) has worked together with MF DOOM on several occasions. In particular they worked together with on the album "Who is Man?" where DOOM produced the entire album and included new beats. John Robinson is more deserving of appearing on the list of Associated Acts than say Masta Ace who has not worked with DOOM but does have an album of recycled DOOM beats that were used with permission.
  • Likewise, Dem Atlas is about as deserving of appearing on the list of Associated Acts as Masta Ace.
  • King Dumile is a valid alias. DOOM has recorded under this name. See the track "Masking" by ASM (A State of Mind).
  • I made a few grammatical changes in order to improve the flow of the text and make it easier to read. All of these were reverted, again without explanation.

The overall quality of this article is quite poor compared to the standards of other Wikipedia articles (poor English, missing citations, inconsistencies, etc). It's a shame that when someone tries to help it just gets rejected without explanation. I hope that someone will read this and take it seriously otherwise I give up on trying to help out. 186.154.86.212 (talk) 19:28, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

It was the summation of your edits that led to the wholesale revert. You made a lot of silly fanboy changes like the vanity capitalization of Dem Atlas, and their "album" is simply a mixtape, not a collaboration. Similarly they don't belong as an AA if that's their only connection. A quick google search only shows one instance of using "King Dumile", the song Masking. Non-notable. So, yes, these were largely insignificant edits that made the article worse and less trustworthy. You do have a point about Masta Ace, though. Not everyone is reviewing everything all the time. Legacy mistakes are less likely to be seen than new mistakes. We're all volunteers here. JesseRafe (talk) 19:39, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Silly fanboy changes? To some it's vanity capitalisation, to others it's an accurate representation that respects the artist's vision. I've seen articles for artists with far bigger audiences than MF DOOM on Wikipedia where they accept and respect the artist's wishes on capitalisation and nobody is so anal about Wikipedia rules as they are here, but I digress. I'm not interested in getting into an argument about capitalisation, I do understand that you want to enforce the rules here and I don't have a problem with that. Maybe I was wrong to use the capitalisation that I did given the sensitivity of the matter on this article, it's just a shame you have to use name calling to defend your unexplained reverts.
You're right about the Dem Atlas record being a mixtape rather than album, that I accept, however the John Robinson album is a collaboration in my opinion. DOOM produced the entire album which included new production not found anywhere else at the time. It at least deserves a mention somewhere in this article.
Yes there is only one instance where he has used the name King Dumile but that does not necessarily mean it is non-notable. Template:Infobox manuscript defines "Also known as" to be "alternative titles which do not belong in the subheader". It mentions nothing about notability, let alone how one may go about deciding whether an alias is notable or not.
As you say, we're all volunteers here, so perhaps you should consider to not take actions that might discourage volunteers, especially when you leave no explanation in your reverted edit. 186.154.86.212 (talk) 01:04, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
What even is your point? "Blah blah artists' vision" is synonymous with both "vanity capitalization" and "fanboyism" is the term for your deference to it. It's over, Wikipedia has an MOS, please read this talk page, it's been settled again and again. You can start your own blog where you capitalize things however you want.
I already stated I was wrong with the capitalisation and I've no problem with adhering to Wikipedia rules so I'm not really sure what you're ranting on about. I happen to like this artist's music, I tried to help out, and that's where it ends. I don't consider myself to be a fanboy, I find the concept of fanboyism ridiculous, but call me whatever you like if it makes you feel better. 186.30.69.172 (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Your opinion does not matter, this is an encyclopedia, not a collection of some random person's opinion on what is an album or not. Is there a source for this putative mixtape/album/whatever?
Precisely. Opinions don't matter, least of all mine, hence the need for citations which this article is seriously lacking, particularly the "Discography" section. A quick internet search yields this "Album Review", amongst plenty of other sources confirming John Robinson's album to be an MF DOOM produced album. 186.30.69.172 (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
"King Dumile" is already listed before your reply, have you read the article or are you only here to fight rather than build an encyclopedia?
No, I didn't reread it as I'm done with this article. I merely replied to your previous comment about it being "non-notable". 186.30.69.172 (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Lastly, what explanation format would you have preferred? I knock on your door with a notarized letter explaining the changes? That's not necessary here. If you want to learn more about how Wikipedia works, please read the links I left on both of your accounts' Talk pages (having more than one account is frowned upon by the way, and may lead to blocks). Until then, read the edit summaries -- that's the only explanation one is due, labored talk page accusations are not supportable for every minor change. JesseRafe (talk) 14:23, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
You can deliver it as a notarised letter if that's your thing, but I suggest you also provide an edit summary. Of course, you just mentioned edit summaries but you failed to provide one with your revert. It might a good idea to read the help page on edit summaries, "It is considered good practice to provide a summary for every edit, especially when reverting (undoing) the actions of other editors or deleting existing text." 186.30.69.172 (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not here to fight. I won't be revisiting this article, nor this talk page. I bid you farewell and wish you the best of luck with fixing up this page. 186.30.69.172 (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

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Discography section

Since there is an article about his discography (MF Doom discography), I believe just having {{Main|MF Doom discography}} is sufficient for MF Doom#Discography. Therefore, I am proposing removal of his solo albums, collaboration albums, compilation albums, live albums, instrumental albums and EPs from MF Doom#Discography. 153.215.18.167 (talk) 11:44, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done 153.205.228.123 (talk) 04:57, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Fake "Studio"

The photo of a structure purported to be MF DOOM's studio in London is actually the Canary Wharf Lifting Bridge control room.

Mjbraun (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:00, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for noticing that and correcting it! JesseRafe (talk) 15:40, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

"Sometimes" vs. other words

@JesseRafe: Can we just delete the qualifier altogether? The artist himself stylizes it as MF DOOM, so we shouldn't have to give it an adjective at all. See Alt-J, FKA Twigs, etc.

I also disagree with the assertion that "usually" is POV; it is simply a fact that artist refers to himself in all caps always and that most publications follow suit (we are one of the few exceptions); it is, therefore, unusual for it to be styled otherwise. "Sometimes," while ostensibly neutral, is insufficiently descriptive: you're right that it falls between "always" and "never," but I would argue most readers will place it smack in the middle when the reality is that it is almost always styled that way. anthologetes (talk • contribs) 22:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

It's categorically false that Wikipedia is one of the few exceptions: almost every major publication uses "MF Doom", Spin, Rolling Stone, Billboard, AV Club, Discogs, Village Voice, New Yorker, etc etc. Even Stones Throw when it was his own label still said "MF Doom" in press releases and quotes/blurbs. Besides which, even if your conclusions weren't false, the means would still be inadmissible as it is your personal view (and therefore opinion or at best WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH) that it is "almost always" or whatever. You would need a source that it is almost always stylized thusly, not just your uncited analysis. Thus the best neutral approach is the simple "sometimes" and the reader will weigh for themselves how often without a POV judgment call weighing it one way or the other. JesseRafe (talk) 13:15, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Fine, I'll concede that point. However, my first question remains unaddressed: does "stylization" refer to how the artist styles their title or how others do? If the former, the qualifier surely ought to be removed, because it is stylized in all caps on all his social media and on major streaming platforms. If the latter, then we ought to add a qualifier to every artist in the encyclopedia that goes by a moniker which does not follow traditional capitalization. anthologetes (talk • contribs) 15:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, but one thing to keep in mind is Wikipedia articles are all-encompassing timewise and don't cover just the current state. At one point his official accounts did also use the regular casing, I clicked on a random date on the Wayback Machine because I knew that his facebook page had changed to the all caps, to wit. He (or his people) did sometimes use "MF Doom" rather than always "MF DOOM". So sometimes, in the past it was not so stylized and sometimes it was. In his 20 years of using this stagename the stylization was not 100% consistent (unlike dead prez or k. d. lang, etc). If there are other articles that could be improved by adding similar qualifiers, then please feel free to improve those as well. For a while, people were trying to make "NaS" happen. It was silly, but it was on Wikipedia off and on for a while. But WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not an appropriate rationale to make other articles less clear or impart a universal truth that isn't. JesseRafe (talk) 16:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Date of death

Guys MF Doom died OCTOBER 31st. It was announced publicly December 31st. Eastjesusknowhere2002 (talk) 21:44, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it would be better to wait for a more formal death announcement. Saying he "transitioned October 31st, 2020" which certainly sounding like he could be dead, does not plainly state that he has passed away Hostagecat (talk) 21:53, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

It was confirmed that he died in October, stop changing it to December.

He very clearly died on October 31. The word "transitioned" in this context is a clear euphemism for death, just like "passed away" or "passed on", and sources like Pitchfork and others have interpreted it that way. If a different date of death is clarified later we'll adjust accordingly, but for now there's no reason to doubt that October 31 was indeed his date of death. —BLZ · talk 22:55, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
The phrasing is very odd, but all the major publications are interpreting this as meaning his death so that's what we're going with until something new comes up. Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:48, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2020

Change 31 December 2020 to 31 October 2020, as this was the date of MF Doom's death. 31 December 2020 was when the family announced it.

This needs to be changed! It is very plainly stated. October 31st.

2601:248:4680:1C70:6DED:3081:CDDF:CB81 (talk) 22:05, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

 Already done Article already states this MIDI (talk) 22:53, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
@MIDI: Thanks for responding to this. Worth keeping an eye on since it's already been changed back and forth in the article a few times, but as I stated in the section above October 31 is the clear correct date of death based on all currently available reporting. —BLZ · talk 22:57, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2020 (2)

MF Doom died in December 31st 2020, not October 31st. 2605:A601:5374:4300:8132:9F46:B35E:418B (talk) 22:55, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

MF Doom's death was announced on December 31, but according to all currently available reporting (Pitchfork and others) he actually died on October 31. —BLZ · talk 22:59, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2020 (3)

Change 31 october to 31 december. 2601:602:780:8DA0:4007:AEB5:D936:6FA6 (talk) 23:26, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: see above RudolfRed (talk) 00:19, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2020 (4)

The date of death is indicated as October 31, 2020 as opposed to the correct December 31, 2020 170.52.155.140 (talk) 23:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: See above RudolfRed (talk) 00:20, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021

Month of death to December from October 216.221.87.160 (talk) 00:27, 1 January 2021 (UTC)  Not done: see above. RudolfRed (talk) 00:41, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021 (2)

MF Doom died on October 31, 2020 2600:1000:B068:E9DC:34DB:DBB5:5FB1:A956 (talk) 00:44, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. MadGuy7023 (talk) 01:08, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

RS?

Is this obit from The A.V. Club reliable? I was trying to source the claim about Yo! MTV Raps and KMD, and it verifies it, but it's so close in wording to the existing WP text I'm thinking it might be a WP -> media copy. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 01:31, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Date of death? October 31 or December 31?

Twitter is saying he just died, but for the past 8 hours his death date has said October 31. Confused! 2001:569:7859:2300:493:B44B:A6BC:C3CD (talk) 03:07, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

see above Agent00x (talk) 03:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

It was announced on December 31st, but, according to his Instagram account, he died on October 31st, and the family didn’t release the news (presumably for the sake of privacy). Rayan.rahmani (talk) 03:40, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021 (4)

He died in December. not october DrMorty (talk) 03:44, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please see above. Agent00x (talk) 12:33, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021 (6)

Change date of death from 31 October 2020 to 31 December 2020. 102.65.175.206 (talk) 09:33, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please see above. Agent00x (talk) 12:33, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021 (7)

Change his death date from October 31st to December 31st. He died on the last day of the year. Not 2 months ago. 62.48.202.131 (talk) 14:37, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: See above. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:46, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021 (5)

"MF Doom" should be capitalized to "MF DOOM", This is the way he wanted it written and has stated it many times. 63.153.152.1 (talk) 06:32, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: See previous move requests, MOS:CAPS, and WP:TITLETM. If the clear majority of published sources are styling the name that way then this could be considered in a move request. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:50, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021 (3)

Please just change MF Doom to MF DOOM thanks much love 2601:681:501:A980:814D:A8FF:C638:9500 (talk) 02:02, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: See previous move requests, MOS:CAPS, and WP:TITLETM. If the clear majority of published sources are styling the name that way then this could be considered in a move request. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:51, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021 (8)

change Mf Doom to MF DOOM in every instance ChrryBlssmGrl (talk) 21:55, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Please review the many discussions listed above about moving this article to MF DOOM and changing the name cited in the article accordingly. This change would require sourcing and consensus to be made. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:06, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2021 (9)

Death date is wrong. 89.146.135.71 (talk) 22:06, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. No, it's not. See the sources cited in MF_Doom#Death. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:07, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Death section

@Popcornfud: I work a fair bit on RDs and the tacit consensus seems to be that a person's death (unless notable in some way) does not merit a separate section. At the very least it should be a subsection of personal life, not a standalone heading. I welcome comments from others on this. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:01, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

AleatoryPonderings, I do see the argument for combining them as having very short sections isn't ideal. I wasn't aware of any strategy of combining Death and Personal life sections, but that doesn't strike me as the solution either, because... well, for obvious reasons I don't think death is part of someone's personal life. Scannability (with clear and accurate headings) wins by default for me, but perhaps others disagree. Popcornfud (talk) 19:55, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Popcornfud, Perhaps "personal life and death"? I'd be fine with that. I know WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't a strong argument, but of all the current RDs only one (Muladi) has a separate level 2 death section. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 20:20, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I kinda don't love "Personal life and death" either, because... "Personal death"... Popcornfud (talk) 20:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Ha, true. I guess a standalone death section is fine for now. It just reads oddly to me to have a big heading saying "death" without any real indication that it was a notable death. (Obviously he had a notable life, but we don't really know much about the death per se). AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:14, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Doom, Dumile, etc

Early in the article, "Dumile" is used to refer to the article's subject; later on, "Doom" or other variants are used. We should be consistent throughout the article. I prefer "Dumile" because he used so many aliases that it would be confusing if we used one alias to refer to him in one place and another in another. I propose to change all instances of "Doom" (when not explicitly referring to the alias) to "Dumile". AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:46, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

I noticed the same thing. Seems like a smart move to me. Popcornfud (talk) 23:48, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 Done. If others object, we can discuss further. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Thompson?

I've been editing the Wikidata item associated with this page and the phrase "Daniel Dumile Thompson" keeps coming up. Do we have RS calling him that? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:23, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I noticed the same thing at WikiData; for instance, his songwriting credits through ASCAP are formally listed as "Thompson, Daniel Dumile". That seems to have been his legal name, although it's not clear that it was necessarily his birth name. You can also find a "Daniel Thompson Dumile" (note the switcharoo: Thompson second, not third) living in New York in the early 1990s in public records by searching the Ancestry Library. Virtually the only secondary source that gives his name as "Daniel Dumile Thompson" is UpRoxx in an article published the day of his death announcement. —BLZ · talk 00:51, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I'd also noticed that sometimes "Thompson" was a middle name and sometimes a last name. Perhaps more details will emerge soon; for now, it seems "Daniel Dumile" is the best we can do by way of "real" (= birth) name. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
There is at least one solidly reliable secondary source that gives the "Daniel Dumile Thompson" name, though it's still only a songwriting credit for lyrics quoted earlier in the book, which is The Anthology of Rap. I found it via an Amazon preview of the hardcover edition, just search "Dumile". In case we decide to use it any capacity down the road, here's the citation: Bradley, Adam; DuBois, Andrew, eds. (2010). "Credits". The Anthology of Rap. Yale University Press. pp. 856–857. ISBN 978-0-300-14190-0. However, at this point I still don't see a need to include it in there since it's not clear how it became his name, whether it was his birth name, etc. Plus by convention he is still universally called "Dumile" as a surname in almost every secondary source about him and there's no reason to potentially confuse readers on this point. —BLZ · talk 01:09, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Including collab albums in Discography section

Right now only solo studio albums are listed in the Discography section. I know there is a whole separate discography article, but would it not be appropriate to list collab albums here as well, especially considering that many of his collab albums are some of the most critically acclaimed of his career? I've seen collab albums listed on the main article on other artist articles. Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 01:31, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I think this makes sense. We could pull the albums listed at MF_Doom_discography#Collaborative_albums? Especially since there's at least one obit calling Madvillainy his "masterpiece", I agree restricting it to solo albums may not be the most reasonable policy. The question then becomes why stop at solo albums. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 02:19, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 Done Makes sense to me, and it mirrors e.g. Jay-Z § Discography. —BLZ · talk 03:17, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2021

I would like to suggest that all 'Doom' be changed to 'DOOM'. This is the correct formatting for his stage name. Even in one of his songs, "All Caps", Daniel Dumile says, "Just remember ALL CAPS when you spell the man name". Also, on every website that speaks of the late artist, uses "MF DOOM" to refer to him. I have not seen "MF Doom" anywhere. I believe "MF DOOM" is the correct format. Furthermore, on all streaming platforms the name is listed as "MF DOOM" not "MF Doom".

Source: https://genius.com/Madvillain-all-caps-lyrics

Source: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2pAWfrd7WFF3XhVt9GooDL?si=sBns9pK1QF2dYUIuswig7A Tjtowelljr (talk) 03:38, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Wikipedia follows reliable sources when making editorial decisions, not streaming platforms. Reliable sources seem split on capitalization. Uncapitalized: BBC, CNN. Capitalized: Complex, Rolling Stone. Not opposed to a change if there is consensus, but this requires discussion. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 03:43, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
MOS:ALLCAPS discourages use of all caps basically whenever possible, particularly when the only effect is stylization. While Dumile's own stylistic preference was—famously, of course—for all caps when spelling his name, the split among major sources indicated by AleatoryPonderings is reason enough to err on the side of regular capitalization. —BLZ · talk 04:33, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Clarity issue pertaining to death

It is entirely unclear when he died, as his family announced when he transitioned into hospice. They never say when he died, however. That also may be unclear to even the family themselves. ALotOfLetters (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

The announcement on social media only said he "transitioned", it doesn't say he "transitioned into hospice". It seems reliable sources are overwhelmingly interpreting this as the day he died. Popcornfud (talk) 17:45, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree that an actual citation to his death is ideal as "transitioned" is a bit ambiguous. Jurisdicta (talk) 21:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
I admit the phrasing is very odd and that's leading to some confusion. Transition is being taken by the media as being a euphemism for death. If this is wrong then the family will then correct this information. We shouldn't second guess the mainstream interpretation until we have reason to. Harizotoh9 (talk) 07:27, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2021 (2)

Replace an mention of his name with all capitals, as he stated should be done in his music. MF DOOM 2601:204:C405:CE80:60F5:FF21:D715:3240 (talk) 07:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. See the many, many discussions above about why this is not an appropriate change. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 07:29, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

December 31st or October 31st

When it was said that he transitioned on October 31st, does it mean he died that day or transitioned into hospice care. When it is said someone transitions, it usually means into hospice Kegino (talk) 07:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

We actually don't know. We're going by reliable sources which are interpreting that as meaning he died on Oct.31st. If this information is wrong the family will release clarification information and the media will report on it. So we just have to wait for now. The phrasing is a bit odd and ambiguous. Harizotoh9 (talk) 10:17, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2021 (3)

2A00:23C4:1311:7401:7054:3871:F27F:E8B9 (talk) 14:24, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 Not done. You haven't suggested any edits. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 14:39, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2021 (4)

ALL CAPS WHEN YOU SPELL HIS NAME BIG SMASH00 (talk) 16:01, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Not an edit request, and you have obviously ignored the many comments above pertaining to this issue. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 16:05, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Missing source

@Brandt Luke Zorn: Is (a print version of) this the source that the sfn with "Pappademas 2004" refers to? It's currently flagging an error because there's no CS1 template associated with Pappademas 2004. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 13:52, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

@AleatoryPonderings: That's right, via Google Books. I've restored it now. Thanks for catching that. I had typed out the whole citation template the first time, don't know what happened to it when I hit save. —BLZ · talk 18:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

"Most notably"

Is it true that He performed and released music under several stage names, most notably MF Doom (emphasis added)? It feels slightly wrong to me; is it even true that he was most often credited under that name? Maybe "He performed and released music under numerous stage names, including MF Doom"? I'm not thrilled with that either, though. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:17, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I tend to dislike any kind of wording around calling things out as "notable" - for one thing it's hard to source and it's easily confused with the Wikipedia concept of notability. Safer to use your alternative wording or some other alternative imo. Popcornfud (talk) 23:21, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
@AleatoryPonderings: I don't like "including", because "MF Doom" is by far the most significant of his stage names (which is why it's the article title), and should be highlighted. I think "most notably" is the best we have for this purpose (and I don't think the confusion with the Wikipedia concept is a factor, since our readers have no idea about that, and the normal meaning of the word works for this context). — Goszei (talk) 23:33, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Fair point. Is "most" necessary, if we keep "notably"? Tbh, I've barely encountered "notably" outside the wikicontext, but it sounds odd with an intensifier to my ear. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:36, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I can see the objection to "most notably"—it's slippery, vague, subjective—but imo "including" is almost too "neutral" to the point of brushing a subliminal bias under the rug. If MF Doom is just one pseudonym "included" among others, why then should it be the only one listed first in the lead? Why should the article called MF Doom and not Daniel Dumile? In actuality it's the same reason that virtually every obit called him "MF Doom" in the headline, which is that he is (objectively) "best known" as MF Doom. The exact phrasing "best known" is used in obits from NPR and A.V. Club, and it's implied by every other one: you put the name someone is best-known by in the headline of their obituary, and each one uses "MF Doom". Switching from "most notably" to "best known" removes the suggestion of his "most notable" music, which is an aesthetic judgment or very subjective and shifting historical assessment. —BLZ · talk 23:40, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
This seems right. Shall we change to He performed and released music under several stage names, but was best known as MF Doom (stylized in all caps).? AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:10, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
@AleatoryPonderings: I suggest a construction like Daniel Dumile, best known by the stage name MF Doom (stylized in all caps), among others, was a British-American rapper. or similar. — Goszei (talk) 00:18, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Works for me. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:56, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Wait... "best known by the stage name MF Doom, among others"? That means he was best known as various stage names. Popcornfud (talk) 00:58, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Agree, "best known by [one] among others" is awkward/inconsistent. I've just edited it with this wording: Best known as MF Doom or simply Doom (stylized in all caps), Dumile performed and released music under several stage names. How does that sound? We could maybe add over the course of his career to the end of that sentence; it's not strictly necessary but it does suggest he adopted and dropped different pseudonyms at various different points in time, which is true. —BLZ · talk 02:43, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I have just now edited the sentence to say Daniel Dumile, best known by his stage name MF Doom or simply Doom (stylized in all caps), was a British-American rapper. I think the point about his other stage names can be safely omitted there, since it becomes self-explanatory later in the lead (which uses bold text to highlight his three other major ones). As far as I know, it's not particularly uncommon or unique trait to warrant a specific mention, especially when it comes to the underground hip-hop scene. — Goszei (talk) 02:52, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
This looks good to me. Thanks, all. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 04:13, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Also, re: the question of whether he was credited most often as "MF Doom" or something else. I would have to think that's correct, especially when lumping in projects for which he's named as simply "Doom". Plus consider that in some projects where he was credited as plain MF-less "Doom" in the liner credits, including (surprisingly, to me) Madvillainy, he was still generally referred to as "MF Doom" in the contemporaneous press about that album. —BLZ · talk 23:44, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2021

change "MF Doom" to "MF DOOM" in the title, all caps 75.118.149.100 (talk) 04:27, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. See above. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 04:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2021 (2)

Just remember all caps when you spell the man's name. MF DOOM 77.251.76.140 (talk) 09:25, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Not an edit request. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 14:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2021 (3)

185.227.9.8 (talk) 19:01, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

death december 31

 Not done. Factually incorrect. Please read the sources cited in the article. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:06, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 January 2021 (4)

He wasn’t an American. He wasn’t born in America and was never officially recognised as one having been deported in 2010 by the Obama Administration. 82.17.86.211 (talk) 21:35, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. General Ization Talk 21:39, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The above is all listed and sourced under Personal Life, which talks about his citizenship issues. 24.215.105.65 (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

New photos

FYI: Just added a batch of photos to commons:Category:MF Doom, all apparently taken at a concert in 2011. I think they're from the same concert as the current infobox photo, but perhaps still worth a look. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 05:43, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Relocation vs. Deportation

Dumile was deported to the UK in 2010, during Obama's presidency. Simply stating that he "relocated" suggests that it was by choice -- it was not. In fact, the deportation is reported to have negatively affected his career and personal life. Jdowiki (talk) 22:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Jdowiki, Please provide reliable sources indicating the truth of this statement. As far as I know, he was denied entry to the US when attempting to return, which is not the same thing as being deported from the US. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 23:22, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I agree. Also, as a British citizen he would have been entitled to live and work anywhere in the Europe Union (those halcyon days), so even if he had been deported it's true to say he relocated to the UK (as opposed to, say, France or Germany).
If we felt like it, I wouldn't oppose explaining more in the lead like this: Dumile never gained American citizenship; after being denied reentry to the US in the 2010s, he relocated to London, where he mostly worked in collaboration with other rappers. Popcornfud (talk) 23:26, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2021

Please correct date of death in the box below picture. it is wrongly written as 31 October. 78.152.218.248 (talk) 15:22, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: the sources given give 31 October as the date of death. Seagull123 Φ 15:49, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 January 2021 (2)

Change MF Doom to MF DOOM. He has said that his name is spelled with all caps he even has a song about it called All caps Spdanky (talk) 19:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See the other requests on this page about this. RudolfRed (talk) 19:35, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
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