Talk:Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization

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Why This Page Should Exist

I have been a Wikipedia lover for a long time, and I was quite shocked that a page did not exist for LCC, considering how much it is used and discussed in jazz. I am trying to get some secondary source info from college courses that teach the theory, but I neglected to tag this article as a new page, which in retrospect I should have done considering it is far from complete.

I think some special edition copies of Kind of Blue mention George Russell's book in the liner notes. Considering that is debateably the most famous jazz album ever, and definitely the most famous modal jazz album, it would definitely prove that the theory gets some use from jazz giants.

Also, I know David Baker, the head of the jazz department at Indiana, studied with Russell and teaches his theory. [website at Indiana] Also, Felipe Salles from UMass Amherst uses and teaches this method.[webpage]. Also, Russell taught his theory at the New England Conservatory for over forty years. [England Conservatory page for Russell]. The LCC is still taught at NEC. [class listing]

The issue with this theory is that, like most newer music theories, the relevant texts are obscure and expensive. I do not have the resources to cite this article properly, but I know the community as a whole does. This is a relevant article for a school of music theory that is at least as popular as Transformation Theory. It should not be disregarded just because its roots are in jazz.

Theadorerex (talk) 17:35, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this page shoud exist because it is about a concept that was consdered an important contribution to jazz theory. I personally never saw how to use a sharp 4th in a foundational way in the majority of jazz standards, but it apparently affected composition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.129.176 (talk) 01:49, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

Ok, so I am going to make a case for this article being notable.

Significant coverage: a preliminary search on JSTOR (it's the only engine I have access to right now...) yielded many reliable results. I have no doubt that any other academic search catalog (ProQuest, etc) would also have many relevant articles if it had music theory journals.

Reliable: Academic music theory journals are about as reliable as you can get. There is also some LCC mention in textbooks I think, so I will try to find something I can cite there.

Sources: There are multiple sources by multiple different authors.

Independent of the subject: The new academic articles I have found are not written by Russell (although one features an interview with him). The actual discussion of his theory is done by other music theorists or jazz critics.

Here are some links to scholarly articles that I have not been able to work into the article yet, but that prove there is significant scholarly information available.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/40318207, p. 9

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1214419

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3878861

I'm sorry all of these are from an exclusive service (JSTOR), but it is the only effective way I have of searching many music theory journals simultaneously. Theadorerex (talk) 17:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 00:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tag removed. Viriditas (talk) 08:30, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Balance, critical reception, neutrality

These are all issues with the page in its present form.

Yes, it's a notable theory; has famous and scholarly exponents; affects the practice of some parts of the world of jazz music.

Yet the claims seem to over-reach: surely not "all music" is based on this premise! There are still parts of the world where people make music without the critical apparatus of a numerical theory of harmonic relations between intervals. And young, and other untutored, music-makers sometimes do indeed make music without "benefit" of theory.

Not even all jazz music can be said to depend on this concept: give me a basic 12-bar blues with two triads and one tetrad — I IV V7 — and show me where the Lydian fourth comes in? It ain't there! But the Ionian fourth is very much in evidence; and the so-called "instability" it creates (being a fifth below the tonic) is a major part of the engine of motion of the blues.

So the article needs work, before it's going to be useful to a casual reader of Wikipedia who doesn't have a substantial music theory background. yoyo (talk) 11:57, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The George Russell (composer) page does a better job of explaining this book's impact than does this one, and with more references. One of those references (the article "1959: the beginning of beyond" by Darius Brubeck in Cooke and Horn's Cambridge Companion to Jazz) even makes Russell's claim that the Lydian mode better represents the [extended tertian] harmony of the tonic seem … plausible. At the same time, it does provide a measured summary of the book's reception and the validity of its claims. yoyo (talk) 14:05, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly agree, at the moment this page reads like an advertisement. Russel's theory is one perspective when looking at and naming harmonic and melodic structures, but it's no better or worse than mainstream western perspectives (of which there are several competing systems anyway) or other systems from around the world.

It may be an interesting perspective to think about and use, but it's dangerous to describe this to students as if it's some kind of "deeper truth", or say that it was single-handedly responsible for Kind of Blue and Giant Steps (hint: it almost certainly wasn't).

Euan Richard (talk) 08:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]