Talk:Lunar Flag Assembly

Look at the shadows

I guess, the sun at the left side, and everything has a very long shadows. But, flag does not have any shadow. Is there any explanation for that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yakamoz51 (talk • contribs) 08:15, 24 January 2012‎ (UTC)

Yes, the sun is to the left of the picture, so all shadows cast to the right. And yes, the sun was at a low enough angle that the shadows were extremely long. The only part of the flag's shadow that appears in this frame is that of the pole, and it is so thin (and obscured by the uneven surface and low angle of Armstrong's camera view) that it's extremely hard to see in the lunar dust. The biggest part of the shadow (cast by the flag itself) would be way out of the frame to the right, near the shadow of Aldrin's head, which is also out of the shot. (The flag was angled slightly relative to the sun, so its shadow was thicker than that of the pole.)

Blow the picture up to full resolution; the shadow is (barely) visible as a thin, black line (which is not straight, due to the undulation of the lunar surface.)

There are other views from a 16mm movie camera inside the LM, which clearly show the flag cast a shadow. One of these was even taken while Armstrong was taking this picture! (BTW: please remember to sign and date your Talk posts by typing "~~~~".) JustinTime55 (talk) 23:02, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed explanation.Yakamoz51 (talk) 14:07, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Still Up There; worth noting?

Is it worth noting that the flag is still up there? Hypothesized to be in pretty bad shape, but it's still up there. Source: http://www.christianpost.com/news/is-the-american-flag-still-on-the-moon-nasa-says-yes-52050/ Skiendog (talk) 03:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Citation reference style

This article needs expansion; it says almost nothing about the flag assembly itself, and other aspects besides the political flak. Most of this info will probably come from "Where No Flag Has Gone Before". The Christian Post article referenced above will probably be a good second source; both will have multiple references, so I think the Notes / References style is better. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Problematic legend: Flags bought at Sears?

I am moving this recent good-faith addition from the article to here, pending further discussion:

The flag used was originally bought off the shelf at Sears for US$5.50, then the LFA was specially designed with a horizontal pole to support the flag on the airless Moon, to make it appear similar to how it would look waving in the wind on Earth.

The Sky and Telescope article sources the NASA Where No Flag Has Gone Before document for this claim, which is presented in a footnote. If you read it, you see that the place of the flag's origin is unclear, and a contradictory origin is given. It is said that NASA explicitly wanted to prevent a "repeat of the TANG incident". It's not 100% certain that "the flags were bought at Sears" rather than a government stock catalog, though it makes for an interesting legend. If we're going to mention this, we probably should tell the whole story. JustinTime55 (talk) 17:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

In fact, as I re-read the original source even more carefully, I see the $5.50 price is quoted as coming from the government catalog, not Sears. Sounds like a bit of sloppy journalism. JustinTime55 (talk) 17:46, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Additional note. There are additional claims and mystery as to the origins or the material:

https://www.ourstate.com/rhodiss-american-flag-mystery/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.12.80.220 (talk) 20:48, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

References

File:Buzz salutes the U.S. Flag.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Buzz salutes the U.S. Flag.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on February 18, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-02-18. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:09, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Picture of the day

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin saluting the flag of the United States, part of the Lunar Flag Assembly, during Apollo 11. The Lunar Flag Assembly was designed to survive a Moon landing and to appear to "wave" as it would in a breeze on Earth. This flag fell over when the Lunar Module Eagle took off.Photograph: Neil Armstrong

B class assessment

@JustinTime55:

• References
  • A couple more references would be useful, I added a couple citation needed tags. Items such as the cost should be identifiable somewhere if they are going to be in the article. Done JustinTime55 (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
  • The references are a little unclear. Multiple memos could have been written in a single day, are there any other identifiers? Are any of the memos scanned and online?  Done These memos were cited by Platoff in her article. Each memo (with the exception of one, "n.d." I assume means "no date") carries its own date; maybe that was a little hard to read because they were all lumped together. I went and broke them out into individual citations (by author; one person wrote three memos). JustinTime55 (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2016 (UTC).
• References round 2
  • Could you cite the flag plant dates in the table? I don't have an easy way of checking if that's the landing date, the flag plant date, etc.
• Grammar
  • Some sentences could use some cleanup. A couple examples:
    • This stirred discussion within NASA of the idea of having the astronauts plant a United Nations flag on the first landing. (edit for clarity)  Done JustinTime55 (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
    • The flags deployed on the last three landing flights were carried in the Modular Equipment Stowage Assembly (MESA), an equipment storage drawer which opened from the side of the Lunar Module, rather than on the ladder, eliminating the need for the thermal protection shroud. (run on sentence)  Done JustinTime55 (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
• Grammar round 2
  • What do you think of breaking up the objectives of the committee into a list?
    • Acting NASA Administrator Thomas O. Paine appointed a Committee on Symbolic Activities for the First Lunar Landing on February 25, which he instructed to select symbolic activities that would not jeopardize crew safety or interfere with mission objectives; that would "signalize [sic] the first lunar landing as an historic forward step of all mankind that has been accomplished by the United States" and that would not give the impression that the United States was "taking possession of the moon" in violation of the Outer Space Treaty of 1967.  Decided it would not flow well with the article to do this. Kees08 (talk) 19:01, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
  • The first sentence is redundant with the last paragraph of the previous section.
    • The flag deployed on the final landing, Apollo 17, was the 6-foot (1.8 m)-wide flag which had hung in the Mission Operations Control Room (MOCR) during the Apollo program. Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt carried a second, identical flag to the Moon and back, and presented it to flight controller Gene Kranz after the flight to replace the one left on the Moon.  Done Kees08 (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Could you reword these sentences?
    • About three months prior to the July 1969 Apollo 11 mission, Robert Gilruth, Director of the Manned Spacecraft Center (MSC) and a member of the Committee on Symbolic Activities, asked Jack Kinzler, head of technical services at MSC (known as "Mr. Fix It" in the agency) to design the flag assembly. Done Kees08 (talk) 19:41, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
    • The total height of the flagpole was limited by the astronauts' 28-inch (71 cm) minimum and 66-inch (170 cm) maximum working height reach limits in their spacesuits inflated in vacuum. Done Kees08 (talk) 19:44, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
• Other
  • Consider using the photo in this source for the Apollo 12 flag. I do not think the current photo shows how significantly the flag drooped due to the broken mechanism. I won't hold up the review because of it, simply a suggestion. http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/ApolloFlags-Condition.html  Done Kees08 (talk) 19:01, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Let me know if any of my edits today are not to your liking, I thought I would try my hand at rewording the article. If you address the above suggestions, I think it will be ready for B-class.

This is my first B-class review, so let me know if I did it wrong in any way or was otherwise not satisfactory. I saw there was a backlog so I am going to try to work through it as time permits. Thanks for your time and patience.

Kees08 (talk) 05:20, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Apollo 15 flag planting

@Wehwalt: Would you be interested in expanding the Apollo 15 portion of this article? (sorry for pinging you all over the place) Kees08 (Talk) 23:47, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I probably can. Is this article planned for review soon? Just so I have a timeframe.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I was hoping maybe in the next month or so. As long as it is before the 50th anniversary really. I suspect this article could get a lot of views. Kees08 (Talk) 00:10, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

OK, will get on it.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:14, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

"most of them on the descent ladder"

For Apollo 15, the LFA was in the MESA. Since the problem on 11 was that the LM had been closed out and it had to be put on the ladder really only applied to 11 because the LFA came so late in the process, this might not have been the case for other missions. They might not have needed as much thermal protection in the MESA, as well.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:42, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Six Flags or Seven?

The second sentence of the opening paragraph states that "Six such flag assemblies were planted on the Moon. " The last sentence states that six 3 by 5 foot flags purchased from a government catalog" and that the last flag planted on the moon was the slightly larger flag that hung in Mission Control. Perhaps this needs to be clarified — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.4.187.34 (talk) 15:39, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

You are forgetting Apollo 13, which carried one of the purchased flags. If history had been different, there would have been seven flags planted on the Moon. JustinTime55 (talk) 22:21, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Why does this page have Nixon's inauguration?

Yes, it's relevant that Nixon made the statement during his inaugural address, but with so many other interesting images that could be in this article, it seems a waste to put an image that merely shows the event where a statement was made. Unless there is any objection, I'll probably replace it with some picture that includes the LFA. SnappingTurtle (talk) 22:18, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia; what exactly is being wasted? There is plenty of space, and already plenty of pictures of the flags on the Moon. You don't have anything against Nixon (as President, minus Watergate), do you? JustinTime55 (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Disclaimer: yes, I have a lot against Nixon, but that's not the motivation for my statement. An article can contain only so many images before it gets cluttered. So the waste I refer to is that the picture of Nixon doesn't contribute much to the article, but it does bring the article closer to clutter. I'd rather have some other picture of the LFA instead of the picture of Nixon. SnappingTurtle (talk) 00:00, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree the photo, at least, should be trimmed. The article has plenty of photos and figures, and this one adds nothing to a reader's understanding of the subject matter.

I don't think it needs to be replaced with anything; plenty of photos already.

I also think there's too much discussion of the speech itself. It's only tangentially related. TJRC (talk) 01:49, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Not sure if I am missing something, but from the source: In January of 1969, President Richard M. Nixon's inaugural address stressed the international flavor of the Apollo program. "As we explore the reaches of space, let us go to the new worlds together -- not as new worlds to be conquered, but as a new adventure to be shared." NASA officials noted the tone of the speech, and there was some discussion within the agency that a United Nations flag could be used for the flight.

Right now, we have one (short) sentence introducing the quote, the quote, and one short sentence describing the impact after the quote. Not sure how we can cut anything from those three sentences. Seems important to include where the Union Nations flag idea originated. I suppose the first sentence is longer now that we made sure to credit JFK. If anything I guess we could cut that, but I think it is fine there.

I put the image of Nixon there because I try to keep the images in the section they are written about. This can make tough choices on cutting images, but keeps relevant images in their appropriate sections (per the MOS). Kees08 (Talk) 02:17, 21 August 2019 (UTC)