Talk:Lucy Parsons/GA1

GA Review

Withdraw nomination Mujinga (talk) 12:58, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Vanamonde93 (talk · contribs) 20:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take this one. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Source notes:
Unless I'm missing something, Non Solus is a blog?
yes it's called a blog and the blurb says "Non Solus was a publication of the Friends of the University of Illinois Library, published from 1974-1985. The Non Solus Blog was established in the summer of 2010 to continue the work of Non Solus in the digital realm, and to highlight the collections and share news". This article is describing an exhibition in the Rare Book and Manuscript Library of the library so seems ok to me to use Mujinga (talk) 14:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a supplementary source it's okay, but I think you should avoid contentious claims sourced only to this. In this case you've used it for important biographical claims; I think you should prune anything not also supported elsewhere. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about that, I've used it once and it's not the only ref. I omitted to mention that the exhibition was actually about the life of Parsons - so I'm seeing this as a tertiary source. Mujinga (talk) 14:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's still a blog, though. It has no editorial oversight, and the author isn't an expert. It could easily have been written by the curator of the collection, it could just as easily be written by an enthusiastic volunteer with no background in the subject. You say you have another ref, but does it verify everything said there? Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've emailed the University of Illinois Library to see if they can provide any more info Mujinga (talk) 22:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Curator of Rare Books and Manuscripts says they don't know who wrote it so they would give the author as "Rare Book & Manuscript Library". These pieces are internally reviewed by curators but not considered peer reviewed. Mujinga (talk) 16:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've googled the authors of a few other pieces currently up on their website, and they're all graduate students as far as I can see. I'll let this slide at the GA level; at FAC I would oppose its use. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Block Club Chicago is acceptable for what it's used for, but the scope of the source makes me wonder if this is trivia, and not worth including.
sorry which ref is this? Mujinga (talk) 14:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The very last, 35. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! My rationale for inclusion would be that it shows her continued contemporary relevance in Chicago Mujinga (talk) 14:32, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I won't object further here, but at FAC I would consider it a problem. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN26 is describe as the Chicago Tribune, but links to a Daily Kos url. We have an RSP entry on the latter; if it's just a hosting website it's probably okay, but if it's possible to replace it, I suggest doing so. This also isn't loading for me (even the archived version).
good point. strange it didn't load for you, it loads for me. in any case it's simply a 2015 repost of a repost which includes the 1915 Chicago Tribune article, so I'll find a better link Mujinga (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
improved with a clipping Mujinga (talk) 16:02, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN27 also looks like a blog; is the author a subject expert? If not, I suggest omitting.
yes no arguments on this one, will check the other source and delete this one Mujinga (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2023 (UTC) - done Mujinga (talk) 16:02, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Blackpast.org reliable?
BlackPast.org seems legit to me, it has a board of directors and describes itself as a resource for African American history. This post has an intro then is composed of the Parsons text "I am an anarchist" which it says first appeared in The Kansas City Journal, December 21, 1886, p. 1. Mujinga (talk) 14:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I can accept this at the GA level. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:09, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources otherwise look reliable.

Spotchecks

Spotchecks:
Replying on this version and thanks for the improvements, I was going to quibble over removing WWU but it's still there Mujinga (talk) 14:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've no problem with the acronym in general, only with its introduction in a section (including the lead) where it's not later used. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN8 partially verifies what it's used for, though note I recommend its removal above.

FN9 completely verifies what it's used for, so removal of 8 would not affect verifiability.

FN12a: I see nothing about beauty or hair, though this source also verifies much of the previous paragraph; possibly misplaced?
hmm yes I can't verify that so removed Mujinga (talk) 16:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN12b verifies content about not working with Wells.

I don't know if the sentence that precedes FN17 is a fair summary. It's a lengthy article, but my reading of it is that the author argues that Parsons advocated self-defence against racist violence, and saw commonality between racial and class-based struggles agaisnt discrimination. I don't know that I'm seeing any of the sentence as written in that source, though of course there is another footnote there.
I take it you mean this: She developed her social anarchist approach, refusing to condemn political violence and perceiving class struggle as the battle against Christian civilization. It's hard to know what exactly I was taking from each source, but I suspect 17 is more being used to back "her social anarchist approach", since 16 specifically discusses "Christian civilisation" and "political violence". Having said that, I take your point that I could also add something about resisting racial violence, so I'll change it up a bit Mujinga (talk) 16:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN18 checks out.

FN23 checks out.

FN24 checks out, though it does make a point about relative fame; it's an acceptable simplification, but you may wish to rephrase.

FN25 checks out.

FN27 checks out as to content, but see note above.

FN29 checks out as to content, but see note above.

FN30 doesn't actually say what you say it does in its own voice, attributing that to the neighbors. It also has a lot of negative things to say about Parsons; I'm personally okay with you omitting those, given that it was a Jim Crow-era paper, but I can think of at least a few editors who would object: see recent NPOV disputes about black communists.
I've made a tweak to show the newspaper was reporting what the neighbours said. I'm not sure if it has that much negative things to say about Parsons, although perhaps I could add something about the pension being controversial since I've seen that get mentioned elsewhere as well Mujinga (talk) 16:29, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN32 checks out.

FN33 doesn't say "self-managed social center" but I assume this is non-controversial.

FN34 completely verifies what comes before it (so 12b above is okay).

FN35 checks out.

FN36 checks out as to content, but see note above.

FN3b checks out

FN3e checks out.

FN3h is almost okay; page refers to acceptance of Parsons' skin color, not her marriage.
The relevant bit of Ashbaugh says Although the neighbors had been apprehensive at first about a white man and a black woman moving into their neighborhood, the German community more easily accepted Lucy's dark skin than white society in Texas or native born Americans in general. She soon found a socialist community which accepted her as a sister and never questioned her racial background., but then there's also 14, which is Jones saying "Residents could hardly keep from whispering about the peculiar couple—a slight, well-dressed white man and his attractive wife of indeterminate origin—who had settled among them" and quoting neighbours discussing the "very queer-looking couple" and "queerly matched pair" Mujinga (talk) 16:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but neither of these are saying that the ethnic Germans accepted the marriage better than other communities: this needs rephrasing. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is Jones saying "couple .. pair .. pair" not enough here? Mujinga (talk) 13:51, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, because she's not discussing acceptance, but rather the opposite. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN3m partially verifies content before it, and there's a second ref. Noting that the place of birth matter is on page 268, not 30.
I verified that info from Jones (the second ref), saying "Her biographer Jones notes that on the birth certificate she wrote her maiden name as Carter and Virginia as her place of birth" Mujinga (talk) 16:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN3t checks out

FN3z mostly verifies what precedes it, and there's a second ref.

FN3ai checks out.

FN3ao checks out.

FN3as: not seeing anything about political violence on p174.
good point, I've brought that back into line with the source Mujinga (talk) 16:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FN3aw mostly verifies what comes before, and there's a second ref.

FN3ba checks out.

FN3bb checks out.
Stopping there, as these are mostly clean and where they are not the issues appear to be ones of source substitution rather than OR. Moving on to prose in a little bit.

Prose

Prose matters:
I wonder at your use of "Negro"; it may have been common at the time, but isn't today; and even if it's been reclaimed in some cases, I don't think the majority of our audience would know it as anything but a slur.
I'd say I'm following the sources here and I'm happy to change. I'm not really sure what the MOS guidance is here and I'm not familiar with US custom, what would you suggest to use instead? Mujinga (talk) 16:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

would African American be better? Mujinga (talk) 22:01, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest "African American" or plain "Black". The latter is, as I understand it, used more frequently in modern scholarship. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Noted Mujinga (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The use of the word "Negro" is more than a stylistic matter, if you wish to keep using this term, please justify it. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There is a lot packed into the first lead paragraph, and some of it you could elaborate on: "harsh repression of the Chicago railroad strike of 1877" is a little woolly. I suggest breaking this into two paragraphs, with Chicago material in the second; and also adding something in the first sentence about her activities; as written, it could easily be read to refer just to her views.
I'll work on the lead last Mujinga (talk) 14:36, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

noted Mujinga (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't made any changes to the lead that I can see. There are no major issues here, but two minor points where I ask for clarity. If you're declining to change anything, I'll note for the record that MOS:LEAD is part of the GA criteria, and clarity is a part of MOS:LEAD. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"She became a notorious political figure" again a little vague, suggest elaborating/rephrasing.
As above, I'll work on the lead last Mujinga (talk) 14:36, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

noted Mujinga (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Parsons was often referred to as the wife of Albert Parsons" I know what you mean, but as written this is meaningless; she was (or considered herself) Albert Parsons' wife, of course she was referred to that way. I think you need primarily or equivalent within the sentence.
yes "primarily" works! changed in lead and body Mujinga (talk) 21:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The left aligned portrait in early life leads to oddly broken up text below it; suggest moving it down or to the right.
made it right Mujinga (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest glossing Jacqueline Jones.
done Mujinga (talk) 21:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"She was 12 years old and called Lucia;" two points. Sentence is too long; also, I assume you mean she was twelve years old when brought to Texas.
rewritten Mujinga (talk) 22:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"and she may have been named after her." rather ambiguous; who was named for who?
Parsons is the subject of the clause and she may have been named after the daughter of Gathings, who was called Lucy Mujinga (talk) 22:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've switched one "her" to "Parsons". Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That seems unnecessary to me, as explained Mujinga (talk) 20:38, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Parsons herself told different versions of her life history." this is very non-specific; and if no further detail is available, I suggest moving this up, to just after the first sentence in the section.
That's a quick summary of the very detailed explanation Ashbaugh gives in a note "Henry and Marie del Gather (whom Lucy claimed were her uncle and mother, respectively) and John Waller (the civilized Creek Indian who was supposedly her father) are probably fictitious. Albert's story that he met Lucy at her uncle's ranch in 1869 while traveling for the Houston Daily Telegraph (pub. by his brother) is probably untrue. Lucy gave the maiden name Carter on her son's birth certificate in 1879 and the name Hull on her daughter's in 1881. Although she usually gave her birthplace as Buffalo Creek, Texas, she gave Virginia on both children's birth certificates. Lucy provided Gonzales as her maiden name to the Dictionary of American Biography for its account of Albert Parsons. On Lucy's death certificate her parents are listed as Pedro Diaz and Marie Gonzales. Lucy identified herself as Native American and Chicana in an effort to cover up her black heritage. There are other stories of Lucy Parsons' origins, but her relationship to Oliver Gathings was the most frequently publicized and repeated- with the exception of her own stories, which conflict with each other."
I think you should fold this into where you say she mixed up the genders of her parents: it's making essentially the same point. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

noted Mujinga (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"the homeless occupied shanty towns" If the intent here is to show that Chicago was a very unequal city at the time, you should say that directly. The fragment (really the whole sentence) sounds like editorializing; but it also doesn't mean much; the homeless live in shantytowns because they're homeless; this remains true in other cities and other times.
I've gone back and looked at Jones chap3 and I think I based these sentences on this bit: "The fire killed 300 people, consumed 18,000 buildings, including much of the downtown business district, and leveled 2,100 acres. Yet remarkably, within a year, a public-private partnership had succeeded in scouring the visible effects of the disaster from the cityscape. When the Parsonses arrived, they saw temporary shanties built to house the homeless still in use, but they also saw neat rows of new wooden cottages for workers and impressive new downtown office buildings. The great department stores were selling an abundance of tastefully displayed ready-made goods. Prairie Avenue and Lake Shore Drive were sites of a post-fire building boom among the city’s great magnates—Marshall Field (retail sales), George M. Pullman (railroad cars), Potter Palmer (hotelier), Cyrus McCormick (farm machinery), and Philip D. Armour (meatpacking)". So I don't think I'm editorializing but happy to rephrase. Mujinga (talk) 22:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But I still think the point about inequality needs to be made directly, and perhaps this offered as illustration; also, I think if you're mentioning a businessman by name, there needs to be a link to the narrative. I see McCormick's factory appears later, but not Pullman? Vanamonde (Talk) 04:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that the source is making precisely this point about inequality so it feels to me like original research to say that. Of the magnates, I gave the ones which i could find wiki-articles for Mujinga (talk) 14:21, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but the rich live in mansions in any city and time, and the homeless in shantytowns. Why is this special, and why does the reader care? Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm summarising the sources and I presume it's of interest to the reader. Would you rather I deleted it? Mujinga (talk) 13:57, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, as written, yes. The paragraph you quote sounds like general background. If you want to use anything from here, I think the most relevant fragment is that the city was experiencing a post-fire boom that was making the local business magnates wealthy. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
removed Mujinga (talk) 12:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Parsons demonstrated her willingness to stand up for her rights by twice taking white people to court in 1875..." I believe what demonstrated her spine was that she took white people to court at that time. I suggest rephrasing as "Parsons showed herself willing to stand up for her rights. She took a neighbor to court over a disturbance, and sued another person over an unpaid bill; at the time, it was unusual for a black woman to initiate legal proceedings against white people." Or equivalent; as things stand, the context is lacking.
You didn't respond to this: separate point from below. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why you don't get that point from the text as it stands Mujinga (talk) 12:19, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I get the point; a lot of readers won't, or will see it as POV-pushing. But this is a minor issue, so no further objections. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"When the Chicago railroad strike of 1877 occurred as part of the Great Upheaval, Albert Parsons at first told the crowds to remain non-violent and to vote for the Workingmen's Party to achieve political change" I think there is too much packed into this sentence for it to be comprehensible to the lay reader. What was the upheaval? Why did the strike occur? Why was Parsons involved? What crowds?
I'm not sure if I need to give more detail since this is all simply context for why her husband got sacked Mujinga (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then I suggest trimming it to something like "Albert Parsons participated in the strike, advocating non-violence and support for the Workingmen's Party. For his activities he was sacked..." It's your use of a specific narrative "at first told crowds..." without further context that is confusing. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
noted Mujinga (talk) 12:19, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I don't find this text clear as written. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"In the next 24 hours he was sacked from his job, had a gun held against his head..." this implies the same person did both; I assume not, but it's confusing as written.
seems clear to me Mujinga (talk) 14:38, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Would help if you can add who was responsible for the threat. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm going to rewrite this bit since Ashbaugh seems giving a jazzed up version of the Avrich account. In answer to your question, Parsons was threatened by the mayor, the police chief and the leaders of the business community, then two unknown men put the gun to his head when he went back to the offices of the Chicago Tribune Mujinga (talk) 21:34, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Much clearer, thank you. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Lucy Parsons saw the brutality of the repression" this is also vague, and without detail, is a neutrality issue.
Another point I don't think you've addressed yet? Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

previously addressed below Mujinga (talk) 12:19, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"She resolved to get a job to support her family" she was already working; also, what's the relevance to the previous sentence?
She was self-employed before and (presumably) not earning enough to support the family, especially without income from Albert's job. This explains the relevance - Albert got sacked so she had to provide Mujinga (talk) 14:58, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"campaigning against voting" suggest expanding; I assume she was not agitating against the right to vote as such, but against electoral reform as the primary means of activism.
No she was against voting, Anderson quotes her saying "Of all the modern delusions, the ballot has certainly been the greatest. Yet most of the people believe in it." then adds " Keep in mind that Lucy Parsons, a Black woman criticizing reformism and voting, did not have the right to vote at the time she wrote this in 1905" Mujinga (talk) 21:40, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"She developed her social anarchist approach, refusing to condemn political violence and perceiving class struggle as the battle against Christian civilization." Some notes above about this sentence, but it's vague as it stands. I'm sure her biographers say her views developed a lot, but without specifics this doesn't mean anything to the reader.
already changed Mujinga (talk) 21:40, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest moving the sentence about her daughter's birth right after the one about her son; it's out of place where it stands.
I'd rather stay chronological Mujinga (talk) 12:20, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"He was an insurrectionary anarchist who promoted propaganda of the deed, direct action to promote a radical cause." suggest rephrasing as "...of the deed, or direct action to further his political goals". "Radical cause" is vague and sounds threatening without meaning anything.
I'm giving "direct action to promote a radical cause" as a definition of what "propaganda of the deed" means Mujinga (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but is "radical cause" necessary to that definition? Without explanation, "radical" doesn't mean much. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Source says "In 1882 he was advocating "propaganda by the deed," the use of dynamite and other "revolutionary" measures." Mujinga (talk) 17:50, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So it's his methods that are radical, which is covered by "insurrectionary". You don't need "radical" again. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
removed the bit you don't like Mujinga (talk) 12:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest glossing The Alarm.
done (earlier) Mujinga (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"During this time, Parsons" as written, this refers to the the march specifically, I don't think that's what you mean.
I'm starting to notice we are having disagreements over style - this seems fine to me as is, but I've made it "time period" Mujinga (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The last two paragraphs of "Moving to Chicago" could afford to be reorganized, though it is not mandatory. I would have the first paragraph be children and WWU; and the second be about publications and everything else after Most's arrival.
yeah it's difficult here, I've gone chronological. I'll have a think about it Mujinga (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest glossing Mother Jones.
done! Mujinga (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prose2

Resuming:
You link the eight hour day, but I think you could use a footnote on why this was so important: we take it for granted today, and I doubt many of our readers know its origins.
that would be going beyond the source, which says "In 1878, Parsons helped found the Working Women’s Union in Chicago a group whose aim was to organize women into unions (Tax 45). In addition, the WWU agitated for the eight-hour day, an exercise in futility that led to Parson’s embrace of anarchy described above." Mujinga (talk) 17:46, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then I suggest at least adding "unsuccessfully": this imply the same point. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suggesting glossing Spies and Pinkertons.
Spies has already been introduced as an IWPA member Mujinga (talk) 18:01, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

added private security guards to Pinkertons Mujinga (talk) 18:01, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"On May 4, Lucy Parsons was organizing a meeting to support striking sewing women and asked Albert Parsons to join her. There was also a protest against the recent police brutality at the nearby Haymarket Square and when people came to the meeting asking for Samuel Fielden and Albert Parsons to speak there, it was adjourned" This is deeply confusing. First, I think you can omit "asked Albert to join her" entirely: we've been told they worked together, I think it can be assumed. Second, which recent police brutality, and is it described that way in the source with no further detail? Third, who is Fielden? and why was he asked to speak? Finally, who adjourned the meeting? This also contradicts the fragment immediately after.
1 "asked Albert to join her" - this gets quite complicated here becuase it might be part of the story Albert presented at trial, attempting to show he had nothing to do with the Haymarket event, or it might be true (per note B). So i think the info is worth including and i wouldn't presume they always went to the same meetings

2 "recent police brutality" refers back to "Chicago Police and private security guards known as Pinkertons attacked the gathering, shooting at least one person dead"

3 Source says "The section had just named Lizzie Swank-Holmes to head the sewing women's drive, when Balthazar Rau, the business manager of the Arbeiter-Zeitung, hurried over from the Haymarket meeting to ask Albert Parsons and Sam Fielden to speak there. They adjourned and left for the mass meeting, which had gotten off to a slow start. "

4 same as 3

what's the contradiction? Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If one is not an uncontroversial fact, but was potentially made up by the Parsons, we should not be stating it in Wikipedia's voice. 2 is not clear; the police action alluded to is described as being at a factory, and it sounds like you're saying it was at the square, when in fact the protest was at the square. Some copyediting would address this. 3 is only clear after you posted the quote here; the adjournment refers to Parsons sewing meeting, not the protest event (which you also call a meeting later; that was the contradiction I was pointing out). This would be much clearer if you made the Haymarket protest central to the text. I suggest something like the following: "...shooting at least one person dead.[ref] In response, a protest was organized against police brutality in Haymarket square on May 4. On the same day, Lucy Parsons was organizing a meeting to support striking sewing women and asked Albert Parsons to join her. Some Haymarket protestors arrived at the meeting, and asked Parsons and Fielden, who were present, to speak at the protest. There were a few thousand people at the square when Parsons took the podium..." or equivalent.
The text in general is fine, but my point about Parsons' story remains. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gloss Fielden, please.
This, too. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
no longer necessary Mujinga (talk) 12:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Similar issues with the following content; why was the mayor there? Why were the police? I think you need to establish the context of the meeting (who was there, how many, where) before describing the events that occurred, and do the latter in strict chronological order.
The thing is this is the article for Lucy Parsons, not Albert Parsons or the Haymarket affair, so I'm not sure how much detail we need to go into when it's all background to the story of Lucy Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the reader needs to understand what's in this article, and at the moment the text is opaque. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:04, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure yes we all want understandable text - I've made some changes which hopefully read better and focus more on Lucy Mujinga (talk) 14:02, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The mass arrests and unlawful searches continued " we cannot be told they continued when we haven't been told they occurred in the first place.
that refers back to the arrests and unlawful search in the previous sentence, but I've rejigged Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay for now; the previous version said nothing about there being arrests besides the ones listed, or about the searches being unlawful. Vanamonde (Talk) 20:04, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that's on your reading I'd like to point out Mujinga (talk) 12:23, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what that means. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I struggle to follow material about the charges when we haven't been told who was arrested, or what the aftermath of the bombing was. Was the perpetrator even arrested?

You have not explained when Albert was arrested.
he wasn't arrested Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then why was he being visited in jail by Lucy? Chronologically, he hasn't surrendered yet.
ah yes i see what you mean now - i've moved the media bit down Mujinga (talk) 20:21, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Lizzie Holmes was not charged" why would she have been?
"since prosecutors did not want to cause a scandal by sentencing a woman to death" - she was caught up in the arrests alongside many of the IWPA branch but wasn't charged because she was a woman Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but we've not heard that she was arrested; if you're going to discuss her charges or lack thereof, you need the context you just gave me here. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've replied on why "she should have been" already Mujinga (talk) 12:23, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Third paragraph of this section is again chronologically confusing; you go from parsons' surrender to sentencing very quickly, then return to the sentencing, without ever specifically narrating the events of the trial.
it's the same issue as before here, I don't see why I need to give all the details of her husband's trial, people can also read his page Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to give all the details, but you need to give enough that the text as written here is fully comprehensible. I don't see why you are reluctant to do so: there's no length concern with the page, and clarity to the layperson is an explicit part of the GA criteria.
perhaps what's going on here is that Albert Parsons was underground and handed himself in at the first day of trial whereas the others were arrested and held in jail - does that help with the chronology since it seems consistent to me Mujinga (talk) 14:04, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's better, but there's still missing context. Later you say "Albert Parsons and the six other men on death row"; but you haven't said that anybody was on death row except for Albert, and even that is an oblique reference. We're going into great detail about where Albert hid and when he surrendered; why are you unwilling to add a sentence that says when the trial concluded, and with what result? Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To repeat myself, I'm trying to focus on the things relevant to Lucy, the subject of the article. As the article says, her actions have historically been elided, so I want to focus on her rather than the men peripheral to her story. Mujinga (talk) 12:25, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that history has tended to ignore Lucy is not a reason to avoid providing context: and in any case, I'm asking you to explain details related to other people that you added. You could ignore the convictions of anybody besides Albert, but choose not to; you could ignore Holmes' not being charged, but choose not to. Having introduced those elements, I do think you need to make them comprehensible. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

link or explain "walk-up"
not sure how to resolve that when "walk-up" links to apartment, so removed Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"took action to save Albert Parsons and the six other men" woolly; what action? Clearly unsuccessful, as they were executed?
that's explained in the next sentence with "fundraising and collecting signatures on the street" Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"A total of between 10,000 and 15,000 people attended the funeral" again, this is providing detail without the basics; where was the funeral? when?
I've added the date, not sure if it's really necessary since it's not her funeral. The funeral took the form of a march with the bodies of the executed people being being up along the way, then a train ride to Waldheim Cemetry. I'm not sure if that amount of detail is necessary Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but if it's not important to her bio you wouldn't mention it: and if you hadn't I wouldn't remark on it. You choose to mention it, but begin with something other than the basics, and that's what strikes me as odd. I think you could afford to work "march" in somewhere; that plus the date is enough. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
noted Mujinga (talk) 12:25, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your refusal to add a single word, but it's not worth a fight, so this is okay. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"her a stipend of $12 per week " suggest adding an inflation template.
Not yet addressed. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather not since then for consistency I'd need to do the same for the other figures in the article and I don't see how that would improve the article Mujinga (talk) 12:26, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just to add, I've had this precise conversation at FAC and have been fine with the nominator choosing not to use the template Mujinga (talk) 12:26, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"young and handsome black-haired German" I think the adjectives besides "young" are out of place.
i've been pondering this - black-haired isn't very useful, handsome perhaps explains why they had a relationship but then maybe they had a nice intellectual connection. anyway, only young left behind Mujinga (talk) 14:06, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"She developed a rivalry with Thomas J. Morgan, who advocated a socialist approach to work as opposed to her syndicalism" the majority of our readers likely don't know what socialism is (no, I'm serious) beyond the fact of which governments call themselves socialist; they certainly don't understand syndacalism. I know you can't define every term here, but I wonder if a footnote on the differences between them would be useful?
source says "The conflict was to determine who would control the Chicago movement, but it was couched in the rhetoric of anarchism vs. socialism. The same rhetoric of hyperbole and exaggeration which prosecutor Grinnell had used to convict the Haymarket defendants, Tommy Morgan now used to try to discredit their friends [...] she advocated a syndicalist theory of society. She advocated workers' ownership and control over the means of production and distribution through their unions. Tommy Morgan, on the other hand, advocated state control of the means of production and distribution by a "socialist" political machine."

"Over time there were events to mark the anniversary of the Haymarket affair and the police continued to stop Parsons addressing rallies" As written, connection between the halves of the sentence isn't obvious.
How to rephrase? Both things happened over time Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If they're related, suggest "events and rallies" and then "...addressing these rallies"; if unconnected, make two sentences.
rephrased Mujinga (talk) 14:07, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Parsons remained an implacable activist for class struggle" her friends were also leftists; why would this destroy their friendship?
this is summarising "The Holmes more closely identified with the emerging intellectual streams of American anarchism, while Lucy Parsons stayed in the mainstream of American working class radicalism", should I rephrase? Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Would suggest something closer to the source, I'm sure they both saw themselves as activists working on class struggles .
I can only find mention of this in Ashbaugh so I'll remove it, since Jones says later on Lizzie and Lucy were friends again Mujinga (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"she had him committed" as written, implies there was no other reason besides ideology; if so, I'm surprised there isn't anything more to say about it. Surely even in that time placing your child in an institution without justification was considered not a good thing to do?
details are scarce on this Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Top of 1900s also has the broken text under a left-aligned image
working ok for me Mujinga (talk) 14:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No doubt; but it's related to screen width, some screens are going to have trouble, some screenreaders more so. See MOS:ACCIM. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
are you referring to MOS:IMAGELOC? Mujinga (talk) 20:03, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll assume so, made the changes Mujinga (talk) 13:53, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
would actually still like to know if you are referring to IMAGELOC as I already asked, since I'm starting to wonder when a left-sited image can ever be justified Mujinga (talk) 12:27, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You said you had made the change, so no further reply seemed necessary. I'm referring to MOS:ACCIM, as I said, but IMAGELOC makes a similar point. I have stopped using left-aligned images altogether, because our documentation suggests they create accessibility problems, and I would rather the article be more widely readable than satisfy my aesthetic preferences. I won't stand in their way elsewhere, but point it out where they break up the text. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Parsons moved towards communism." this is a suggestion only, as above, but an explanatory footnote as to ideology would help the reader.
noted Mujinga (talk) 12:28, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"the International Workers' Day (May Day)" It was known to the organizers as the May day event, surely? I would put the other name in parentheses.
Ashbaugh says "Lucy Parsons hailed May Day in the April 29, 1930, Daily Worker, and she was one of the Communist Party's May Day speakers at Ashland Auditorium in Chicago. In the Daily Worker she wrote, "On this day the workers of every land and every clime will abandon the factories, mines and other hell holes of capitalism and march by the thousands under the banner of the Communist International and will declare their intention to abolish the curse of capitalism, poverty, and misery.""

may day was announced as an international event in the 1890s so I think this is ok as is Mujinga (talk) 14:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your sources support my point, though? They're not saying "International Labor day" at all, because that's a bizarre phrase used only in the US to refer to the day everyone else celebrates labor day. I would honestly just omit the parentheses, and pipe May Day to ILD. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think ILD is something else, and we have as our article International Workers' Day not May Day so thta's why I wanted to have both terms. Could switch the brackets though? Mujinga (talk) 18:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I suggested the first time; yes, that works.

"supporting Angelo Herndon, Tom Mooney ..." supporting in what way? this is vague.
Blackpast says "In the early 1930s Parsons joined in the defense of the Scottsboro Boys and Angelo Herndon."

Ashbaugh says "Lucy worked in the defense of Angelo Herndon and the Scottsboro Boys" and "Lucy continued to work with I.L.D. for the release of Tom Mooney. She dug deep into her empty purse for $1 which she contributed to his defense [...] Tom Mooney wanted to put his own case into the context of the history of labor frame-up cases, and he asked Lucy to send him material on the Haymarket case" Mujinga (talk) 20:07, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest adding "legal defense of"
noted Mujinga (talk) 12:29, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Her will was declared invalid" do we know why? Based on the rest of the article, it could easily be either her doing something hare-brained, or discrimination against her.
details are again in short supply, it def could be either! Mujinga (talk) 20:07, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gloss Irving Abrams
rephrased Mujinga (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Parsons' lack of interest in the struggles of African Americans" Not specific enough, I think. The sources don't say she didn't care about black folks, they say she cared about class struggle specifically; I'm guessing what's meant here is that she didn't care about racial justice as an issue separate from class struggle.
Well the whole things says "Historians have criticised Parsons' lack of interest in the struggles of African Americans, with her stance reflecting a belief in the need for the working class generally to rise up against its employers, rather than appealing to the need for racial equality. One explanation is that since she denied her own black heritage, she focused more on class struggle." - so yes I think we are in agreement. Mujinga (talk) 20:16, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"This meant that she did not make links with..." somewhat repetitious from above.
yes i had trouble phrasing that, still don't really have an improvement. any suggestions?

rephrased Mujinga (talk) 14:11, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the legacy could be fleshed out a little bit in specific places. The race angle is covered well, and the history of coverage; but surely there is material on the actual impact she had in her own right, rather than the emphasis on what she didn't do? I would also suggest reorganizing thematically where possible; the opening sentence, for instance, would fit much better at the end of its current paragraph.
More general note: there is a lot of colorful language being used here; I recognize the circumstances being described were harsh, but where the reader can be told the specifics of what happened, it can achieve the same effect without potentially sounding biased. Let the facts speak for themselves where possible.
can you give an example here? Mujinga (talk) 14:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. "shaped by the harsh repression", "saw the brutality of the repression", "willingness to stand up for her rights", "recent police brutality", "implacable activist for class struggle". All individually justifiable if the sources support them, but in each case I think the reader is better served if the specifics are laid out in more detail. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'm summarising the sources here:
"shaped by the harsh repression" is in the lead and summarises the defeat of the Chicago railroad strike of 1877 in which her husband was sacked and threatened with death and the wikiarticle says "By the time order was restored on the evening of July 26, 14 to 30 rioters were dead or dying" so it seems apt.

"saw the brutality of the repression" - this refers to the Battle of the Viaduct where "The workers, armed only with rocks, bricks, and sticks, were vastly overpowered. An estimated thirty-five workers died in the week-long clashes" Schaak quoted in Jones, chapter 3

" "willingness to stand up for her rights" - as mentioned elsewhere, this was when she made two separate court cases against white people

"recent police brutality" - as mentioned elsehwere that refers back to the previous sentence, "Chicago Police and private security guards known as Pinkertons attacked the gathering, shooting at least one person dead"

"implacable activist for class struggle" - this one I can understand what you mean, I don't think the current course backs that fully. I do think it's a fair statement about this rather incredible activist but it could do with another cite, I'll look for one Mujinga (talk) 20:00, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

on the last one i ended up taking out the sentence Mujinga (talk) 14:15, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
no reply seems to indicate the pattern of either doubling down on your point or ignoring my reply. Mujinga (talk) 12:29, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now that's an uncollegial statement: please strike it. I don't reply when no further action is needed on either our parts, and I reply when it is. That's always been how reviews are handled. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Another general note; I think the article would be well served by a separate section on views or ideology. As things stand that material is mixed into everything else, which is okay in places where specific events led her to change her views, but in general leads to a scattered narrative. This is definitely not a GA requirement, and I leave it up to you whether to try to affect this change now or later (or at all).
I'm not sure about this - do you have a particular article in mind to compare to? Mujinga (talk) 14:22, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a requirement, to be clear, but Emma Goldman is a relevant example. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:52, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I was also looking at Goldman but I think she's much more written about as a philsopher/writer and rightly or wrongly there just aren't the sources for Parsons. So then I'm following more on the model of Olive Morris. Mujinga (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A general point about language. You often use the construction "the [phenomenon] ..." for things that haven't been explained ("the mass arrests...", "the mainstream media campaign...") which is generally a sign that something should have been explained earlier in the narrative. I've pointed out a few examples, but please check throughout.
Yes it seems my writing style in which I introduce a topic then expand is clashing with you wanting things explained earlier. I'm not sure what to do about this since obviously I want the article to be understandable but there's more than one way to make an omlette Mujinga (talk) 20:26, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we clearly have stylistic differences, but I did also read through once before commenting; so if there's things that were still unclear to me, they were unclear after reading the entire article and a good bit of the sources besides the two biographies. We've gone over the biggest sticking points: once those are addressed I think we're okay. If you take this to FAC we'll see whether others agree with me or it's just a stylistic matter. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:08, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are clearly going beyond GA pass/fail issues here. Whilst I remain grateful that you want to do more than that to improve the article, when it's at the point of adding things I disagree with and insisting on stylistic changes, I don't feel this is a collegiate process. Your edit summary "replies to some; flagging many prior comments that haven't yet been responded to" seems to imply that when you make a suggestion that goes beyond GA pass/fail issues I am bound to respond? I can reply to everything now if you like, but you can't insist on stylistic changes. I would also appreciate a reply when I ask a direct question. Mujinga (talk) 12:16, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Replies made Mujinga (talk) 12:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mujinga, replying "noted" to a point is meaningless. Yes, I make optional suggestions, and you can ignore them if you please; but not all the points are optional. At no point do I require you to use my phrasing, but I don't believe it is unreasonable to say "here's what I don't understand" and require you to fix it in any way you please. And certainly, I require replies when I'm flagging the use of racially charged terms. The other points I flagged were ones I believe to be issues of breadth or clarity, and you see them as style issues. I will post on WT:GAN asking for a second opinion. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Vanamonde93, thanks for the deep dive I'm looking forward to going through the comments - my internet access is currently patchy but I'll hope to get to it later on today Mujinga (talk) 10:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stopping here for now - if you need any texts (eg Jones) I'd be happy to send them over. As you might have seen discussed somewhere I was thinking about taking this to FAC if successful at GA so these comments are very welcome! Mujinga (talk) 17:32, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's all I have for a first pass. To be quite honest, I'm not sure that it's not better to close the review right now based on prose concerns. The issue isn't bad writing as such — I've made very few copyedits — as that it reads like a much larger body of material was condensed by someone very close to the source material. There's a lot of places where the reader lacks context, which I've tried to flag above, and it will take more than copyediting to address this; you will need to look at your sources for additional detail, and once you've gone over my points, I will need to do another pass. This is a subject worthy of a GA (and an FA, though I think you will need to beef up the legacy and add detail to her various actions and prosecutions, in addition to making the prose flow). I will leave this open for now, but wanted to flag my concern. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:26, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.