Talk:Lucy Feagin

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Rlink2 (talk) 13:47, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

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To T:DYK/P6

• ... that Lucy Feagin founded the Feagin School of Dramatic Art in New York City and talent scouts for radio, screen, and stage always observed her seniors' plays? Source: "The June issue of Hollands Magazine carries a charming picture and a most interesting article featuring Lucy Feagin, head of the Feagin School of Dramatic Art in New York in a series of sketches on Southern Personalities." and "Talent scouts, seeking material for radio, screen, and stage, are always in the audience when her seniors give their plays." - Union Springs Herald
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Macy Rodman

Created by SL93 (talk). Self-nominated at 16:53, 12 March 2022 (UTC).

• Reviewing Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:52, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

• {{subst:dyk?}} QPQ done, created in time, no copyvio found and everything is cited. Hook seems a little badly worded. Am I assuming this is referring to talent scouts being present to see students plays? Could we maybe get an ALT1? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:59, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

• Lee Vilenski ALT1 ... that Lucy Feagin founded the Feagin School of Dramatic Art in New York City where talent scouts for radio, screen, and stage were always present to watch her senior students' plays? SL93 (talk) 19:03, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

• works for me. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:13, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lucy Feagin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 22:18, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Howdy! I can take this review; first comments should be done in about a week. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 22:18, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Theleekycauldron It's been a week. SL93 (talk) 01:18, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

fair enough, my apologies—i should have a bunch of free time tomorrow one way or another, so definitely by then. Possibly by tonight? I'll try. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:19, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you. SL93 (talk) 01:48, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Prose

Teaching career

• She lectured men and women who wanted to act, sing, or to develop their speech. Listen, it's not transphobia or anything, but I do think that "people" is a better choice for this one.

I put men and women since children weren't included. People wouldn't be exact. SL93 (talk) 00:16, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I will change it to adults as being much better than people, but men and women does match the source. SL93 (talk) 00:18, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

• Is great patriotic pageant the name of the pageant itself or something? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:03, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Cleveland Todd added the word "great". I removed it. SL93 (talk) 15:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

• Recruiters for the radio, screen, and stage were always on hand when the seniors presented their plays — close paraphrasing issue? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 00:41, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I personally wouldn't consider "for the radio, screen, and stage" as close paraphrasing due to it being a list. SL93 (talk) 00:47, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

i suppose not, but a lot of the article does feel like the sourcing with a thesaurus—a lot of the grammatical structure is still the same. I'm not going to push too hard over it, but I caught a bunch of similarities like that. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 00:53, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Can you list them? SL93 (talk) 00:54, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Theleekycauldron I'm really curious because you said there are "a bunch of similarities". I did remove one that looks to have been accidentally added by the GOCE copyeditor. It also makes me curious due to it being a shorter currently B-class article, the Accomplishments section has a few quotes, and the DYK reviewer didn't mention anything. I'm not sure if you're talking about lists such as "a 250-seat Little Theater, a large stage, a broadcast studio, classrooms, and studios for scenery and costume design." or "including Ina Claire, Elizabeth Patterson, and Helen Hayes." Even those two lists are phrased differently than the sources. I'm going to ping the DYK reviewer Lee Vilenski just in case. SL93 (talk) 15:50, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I would classify those as WP:LIMITED. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:15, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

looking back through it, I don't think it's a big enough thing to not just be WP:LIMITED—a couple things caught my eye (source: she would have to relocate to a bigger studio to accommodate her ever-growing student population. article: Later she relocated to a larger studio to accommodate her growing number of students), but the harder i look, the less i find. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 05:30, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Again, that wasn't me, but Cleveland Todd. I had "After World War I ended, she resumed her classes at Carnegie Hall, then a new location at 316 West 57th Street in New York City at some point, later relocating to a larger studio for her growing number of students." SL93 (talk) 05:34, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I would still like to see a list of what would need to be fixed. SL93 (talk) 05:41, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm going to bed now and hopefully those sentences are posted before I wake up. I first asked for that list two days ago. SL93 (talk) 06:17, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Accomplishments and legacy

• grits and gravy, ham and eggs, and turkey and cranberries — the quote says "as much an American institution as grits and gravy and ham and eggs and turkey and cranberries".

Changed. SL93 (talk) 15:27, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Sourcing

Key to icons:

• — verifies content in full
• — inaccessible citation accepted in good faith
• — verifies content in part
  • — verifies content in part, other sourcing verifies rest
• — minor gaps between sourcing and text
• — sizeable gaps between sourcing and text
• — does not verify content

Source	Use	Verifies content	Quote	Notes
Farnsworth 2022	a		Paragraphs 1–4 in full, up to She was only allowed to study dramatics so long as she also studied art. Art was considered a "proper" course for a girl of her time.
	b
	c
	d		and continued to further her education abroad in London and Paris schools
	e		Feagin's first studio was located in Carnegie Hall. In 1915, the school's name was Feagin School of Drama and Radio.
	f		While she taught dramatics at her studio, once a week at the Hotel Plaza, she would lecture on all phases of the dramatic arts.	Looks like you've gotta supplement with Higgins 1921.
	g		She did this routine for nine years; however, during WWI, she temporarily closed her studio in New York to help with the war efforts in Washington.
	h		When the war was over, she resumed her classes only to find in time she would have to relocate to a bigger studio to accommodate her ever-growing student population.
	i		A few of her most notable actors and actresses in attendance included: Jeff Corey, Ben Edwards (Union Springs), Susan Heyward, Angela Lansbury, Helen Claire (Union Springs), Alex Nicol, and Cris Alexander.
	j		She passed away at the age of 87 in Birmingham, Alabama, on May 8, 1963.
Owens 1921			He rejoined in regiment in January, 1863; cmomanded it at the battle of Suffolk and in the campaign of Pennsylvania; was severely woudned, losing his right leg, at the battle of gettysburg, and was captured.
Higgins 1921	a		Prior to coming to New York she [sic] lived in Washington for eight years, where she was foremost in her line of work, but the call of new York was too strong for her to resist, and now she "adores it", like most persons who have found success here.	the source doesn't specify between Washington state and D.C., but you've linked the state. In fact, given quite a few context clues, my money would be on D.C.
	b		Miss Feagin has many friends in Birmingham, where she lived for a time and taught in the Allen School.
	c		Miss Feagin goes to Philadelphia once a week to lecture, and she frequently gives readings in cities near New York.
				She didn't teach people to act or sing or develop their speech according to the source, though, right? She helped people supplement their performative ability by adding expression and emotion to whatever performance they gave. Saying acting or singing seems to narrow in a way that doesn't pan out.
	d		The Evening Telegram, of New York, says: "Miss Lucy Feagin might be called a specialist in the high art of self-expression..."	you couldn't track down the original?
The Anniston Star 1963	a		she taught drama for about 10 years... during this time she continued her own studies, selecting as her teachers those best known in the field of dramatic instruction.	seems you've got room for expansion there, then
	b		her talk on "the charm of good speech" brought enthusiastic response.	you may want to input somewhere that her lectures were in high demand, according to this paragraph.
	c		with graveside services at 2:30pm at Oakhill Cemetery, Johns-Ridout's idrecting [sic].	that's not 100% "she was buried there", but eh, I'll take it.
The Troy Messenger 1938			she helped with plays and other entertainments in camps, and worked with thousands of women war workers.
Caldwell 1940	a		but the greatest thrill she has ever known came when she was given the honor of staging the great patriotic pageant reviewed by Woodrow Wilson in Washington on July 4, 1917, when the great war president praised her work
	b		the lady who helped make the team, "alabama and broadway," as much an American institution as grits and gravy and ham and eggs and turkey and cranberries, is visiting in Birmingham.
Dalrymple 1932	a			what does this verify?
	b		one of the most significant honors was when she was asked recently to participate in the program in celebration of the 368th birthday of William Shakespeare staged in Central Park, New York	you could add that she was the only alabamian to do so, although that's probably just some hometown pride from The Birmingham News
The New York Times 1993			in the fifty-seventh street playhouse, 316 west fifty-seventh street. Lucy Feagin, director of the school, will preside...	might want to add source 9 to supplement
Union Springs Herald 1938			paragraphs 9–11, in full	this source says that feagin was at carnegie for 16 years- does that mean after the war?
			When the New York League of Business and Professional Women, cooperating with seventy other organizations, selected Lucy Feagin as one of the twenty-five most outstanding career women of America ...	the magazine didn't name feagin one of the twenty-five, the New York League of Business and Professional Women did.
Union Springs Herald 1950			In his column, "Under The Marquee," Field Carner, dramatics writer of the Montgomery Advertiser, recently had an interesting report of an interview with miss Lucy Feagin... easily the head of a charm school instead of the founder and firector of one of the top dramatic schools in the nation

I'm not sure how to properly respond to these, but I think I solved all of the issues in this. For "this source says that feagin was at carnegie for 16 years- does that mean after the war?", I'm not sure and stating as such either way would be original research. SL93 (talk) 01:15, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Baskin 1938 says that she opened the carnegie hall studio in 1915, and remained there for 16 years; "briefly reopened" and then relocating doesn't sound quite right. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 05:28, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Theleekycauldron I see why I was confused. I didn't add briefly, but the copyeditor did for some reason. I removed the word. SL93 (talk) 05:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality

• could easily be the head of a charm school instead of the founder and director of one of the top dramatic schools in the nation: given that quite a few of these quotes and articles are written by 1950s men (this one in particular from Alabama), I'm hesitant to include "head of a charm school" as relevant.
• Also, quite a bit of the sourcing seems to point to the idea that she was the most respected woman in dramatics of her day- Varner's article certainly does. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:00, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
  • unrelated, but the beginning of paragraph four sounds like the beginning of "Alexander Hamilton". theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:00, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I removed the charm school reference. I'm not sure what you mean by the second part. SL93 (talk) 01:23, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Are you asking for negative articles? I can't add them if there aren't any. SL93 (talk) 02:33, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Actually, I'm saying that the article downplays a little bit; this isn't GA-disqualifying, I suppose, but it'd be interesting to add the quotes that place her as possibly the foremost woman dramatist and a founder of one of the best drama schools of her time. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 05:24, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Broadness

✓ Pass theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 00:54, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Stability

✓ Pass theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 00:55, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Imagery

• There was a much better image in one of the newspapers; sucks that it was 1940. Regardless, ✓ Pass. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 00:55, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Overall

At the moment, this'll be  On hold. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 05:30, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

yeah, well, okay. despite your desire for the list, my judgement is that it doesn't happen to impede this article from GA status. so, I'm passing this now, and finishing the list either tonight or tomorrow. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 06:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

That works I guess. I'm having trouble sleeping anyway. SL93 (talk) 06:44, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

GOCE edit

@SL93 In the process of a GOCE edit on this article and I have several questions.

1. Lead section "Holland's Magazine...." Can you add a date to this? It helps to know if she were just beginning her career or well along in it.

Done. I have the month and year. I just need to source the sentence when you're done with the copyedit. SL93 (talk) 22:53, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

1. Personal life. "...the Battle of Sharpsburg in 1862, leading to his losing his leg at the Battle of Gettysburg 10 months later." This is a little confusing. Wounded in 1862; loses leg in 1863. Can you clarify? Was he injured the entire 10 months? Was he wounded again at Gettysburg?

Cleveland Todd Done. I found the answer in this book. He was wounded at the Battle of Sharpsburg and then lost his leg due to a different wound at Gettysburg. The two events weren't related. SL93 (talk) 22:52, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

1. Teaching career. ...to her classes of students, artists, women, and businessmen." "Women" seems out of place here. students and artists can be women. Are these outsiders? Non academics?
2. Teaching career "... New York's lecture corps in the bureau of education lecturing to parents and other adults." Could not find anything on the "bureau of education." Is the the precursor of the NY(City) Department of Education? Or the New York (State) Education Department?
3. Teaching career "... Feagin operated her school for nine years until the beginning of World War I when she closed her studio to aid the war effort." We say she opened her studio in 1915; World War I began for the US in 1917. Where do the nine years come from?

Done. SL93 (talk) 22:52, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

1. "... World War I when she closed her studio to aid the war effort." What did she do? This is a pretty big deal - to close her studio -- to do what?

Done. SL93 (talk) 22:52, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

I'll probably have some more as I continue to edit. Hope this is OK. Cleveland Todd (talk) 17:35, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Cleveland Todd I accidentally started editing the article again because I thought the copyedit was done. I hope I didn't cause any edit conflicts. SL93 (talk) 17:48, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

You're ahead of me then. I think you answered 5 and 6. I'm not quite done with the edit. When a GCOE editor finished a project, he puts a template *  Done Cleveland Todd (talk) 17:55, 25 March 2022 (UTC) on the request page. It usually stays up for 24 hrs. when it's removed. I also put a GCOE template on the article talk page when finished. Cleveland Todd (talk) 17:55, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorry. I just woke up. SL93 (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

"After the war ended, she resumed her classes at Carnegie Hall, in its new location at 316 West 57th Street in New York City." - The school opened again briefly at Carnegie Hall, then the school itself was relocated to 316 West 57th Street briefly, and then continued at the Rockefeller Center until the end. I wasn't sure how to word it. SL93 (talk) 18:12, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

@SL93: Looking good. I'm going to mark this copy edit finished. You'll add the date for Holland's Magazine. The only question still outstanding is on the "lecture corps in the bureau of education." I don't think it's either important or a key issue. Interesting woman; excellent article. Cleveland Todd (talk) 18:27, 26 March 2022 (UTC)