Talk:Lower Assam/Archive 2

RfC: Western Assam or Lower Assam?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

As this is really a move proposal and debate dried up nine days ago, now seems as good a time as any to go ahead and close it. After reviewing not just the remarks here but in the other threads on this page I can't actually say I see a clear consensus due to low participation in this discussion. However, as with everything in Wikipedia articles, we should go with what the sources say and a convincing argument has been made that more sources use the term "Lower Assam". The contention that this is somehow insulting seems to have been made up and is not relevant anyway. Therefore the result of this discussion is no page move, meaning it will continue to be a " Lower Assam." Usage in the article text should probably be consistent in reflecting the actual page title, it is explained in the lead that it is also called Western Assam, one mention is sufficient. (I am also planning to archive most of the threads above as the page is needlessly cluttered with subthreads, repeated arguments, and sockpuppet comments.) Beeblebrox (talk) 17:04, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

{{rfc|hist|rfcid=85E16A7}} Discussion seems to be stalling and going around in circles here, so I'm opening an RfC to open the issue to a wider audience. Although I recommend that commentators read the talkpage threads above, as well as the discussion at the RS noticeboard here, I will summarise the two positions as briefly as I can:
Arguments made in favour of Western Assam:

"Lower Assam" can be abbrieviated to "Lower Ass.", which is seen as derogatory.
"Lower Assam" is the preferred term of the Ahom majority, and its use is offensive to the Kamarupi minority.

Arguments made in favour of Lower Assam

The page was originally created under the title "Lower Assam".
"Lower Assam" is now the more common name in English".

Thank you in advance for your input. Yunshui 雲‍水 12:26, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If "Lower Assam" can be abbreviated as "Lower Ass", the "Western Assam" can be abbreviated as "Western Ass", which is also derogatory.
"Lower Assam" is not the preferred term for Ahom people. The Ahoms are an ethnic group, and though they are predominantly found in "Upper Assam", they can be found in "Lower Assam" too. "Lower Assam", on the other hand, is the name of a region, the lower reaches of the Brahmaputra river in Assam, and it was a term that was coined by the British (look above at . During the Ahom rule, the part of "Lower Assam" that was under the Ahom rule was called Kamrup, after the Mughals, from whom this region was taken.

Please discuss this under Talk:Lower_Assam#Move_proposal.

Chaipau (talk) 14:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lower Assam is word to word translation of the 2-letter phrase spoken by Ahom people. Before Ahom occupation, the Mughal used to occupy the region. They use Western Assam as can be seen in Bibliotheca Indica - Volume 154 - Page 132 - translation of original Persian. Mussal (talk) 18:41, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please be aware that this discussion may not move forward because User:Kurmaa has been blocked indefinitely for violating Wikipedia policies (WP:EVASION), and his sock puppet, User:130.65.109.101, has been blocked for a month. Chaipau (talk) 15:23, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Does Kurmaa gagged mean Tai-Ahom Chaipu win?

Mussal (talk) 18:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is important for everyone to know that the term "LOWER ASSAM" was used in official documents by the British Government before 1947 CE, and it is still used in the official records and documents of Government of Assam. The term Upper Assam and Lower Assam was used by British, to denote the regions lying in the upstreams of River Brahmaputra and to the regions lying in the downstreams of the River Brahmaputra. No one in Assam considers the term "Lower Assam" as derogatory. This complain against this term was first lodge in Wikipedia by User Kurmaa. The User Kurmaa had made an unnecessary hue and cry over this issue. While in reality, no one in Assam has any problem with the term "Lower Assam". Even in this article Lower Assam, almost a major part of historical events were skipped, providing very less and wrong information regarding Lower Assam. It will create a wrong impression of Lower Assam among the readers around the world. All the historical records and present day official documents will support the term Lower Assam. Therefore i would request the members of Wikipedia community, not to encourage any comments which are not supported by any historical or official documents. From the comments of the User Kurmaa, one can easily assume how desperate the user is to prove his point, which in reality doesnot existed. The User even used derogatory terms againsy Ahom community, a clear sign of disturbed mind and racial hatred.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 17:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think above statement by user Lachitbarphukan should be taken into account as because he is Ahom, and according to him Ahom people have been occupying the Western Assam region since 1617 CE.

I think Bibliotheca Indica - Volume 154 - Page 132 is the oldest record of the usage of Western Assam as this is a translation of original Persian - which also indicates Western Assam was used even before the Ahom occupation of the region began.

Mussal (talk) 18:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, Hussein Shah was not Mughal. Babur established the Mughal empire in 1526, whereas this invasion by Hussein Shah took place in 1498.
Second, Hussein Shah called his new conquest Kamru (from the coins he minted at his victory), not western Assam. Western Assam is given in parenthesis, and added by the authors.
Third, it could not have been called "Western Assam" in 1498 because the Kingdom of Assam was not named yet. There is no evidence of the use of the name "Assam" ("Asam", "Acham" etc) before Sankardeva.
Yes, during British times, "Western Assam" the older use, which gave way to "Lower Assam".
If you are Kurmaa's sock puppet, you too will get blocked.

Chaipau (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This assamonline thread is probably the longest discussions among indigenous people of Western Assam on current problem.
Why Tai-Ahom user Chaipau in Wikipedia is pushing for Lower Assam?

Mussal (talk) 20:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The point is, you are pushing for "Western Assam". You are campaigning for "Lower Assam" is derogatory here. Will you confirm that you are not Kurmaa's sock puppet? Chaipau (talk) 20:49, 11 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 18:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lower Assam → Western Assam – This article is about western part of Brahmaputra Valley, consistently referred by scholars as Western Assam not Lower Assam because Lower Assam Division (name of a division) historically contains central Assam as well as hills in Meghalaya state which were never part of Western Brahmaputra Valley. Relisted. BDD (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2013 (UTC) भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In light of new fact, i am requesting said move. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: That historical fact is not new; in fact it is already given in the article (Lower_Assam#cite_note-1). Additionally the citation makes clear that "Western Assam" too included central Assam, and over time Lower Assam became the preferred name. Chaipau (talk) 01:58, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article deals with west plains of Brahmaputra Valley, an geographic area. It is not about any administrative division, district, eastern valley, central valley or about Khasi and Jaintia hills of Meghalaya state. This article deals about history, culture, geography and people of western part of Assam state. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 02:57, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(i)Tej Ram Sharma,1978,"Personal and geographical names in the Gupta inscriptions. (1.publ.)", Page 254, Kamarupa consisted of the Western districts of the Brahmaputra valley which being the most powerful state.

(ii)Suresh Kant Sharma, Usha Sharma - 2005,"Discovery of North-East India: Geography, History, Culture, ... - Volume 3", Page 248, Davaka (Nowgong in Central Assam) and Kamarupa as separate and submissive friendly kingdoms. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 03:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The term Lower Assam was used in almost every historical documents or records of Assam. During Ahom rule and British colonial rule, the terms Upper Assam and Lower Assam (termed as Ujani for Upper and Namoni for Lower in local language)was used to indicate the plains and the areas lying in the upper and lower course of the River Brahmaputra. In present days, the government of Assam has several departments which use the term Lower Assam in the official documents. Therefore, using the term Western Assam in place of Lower Assam will only create confusion among its readers.Lachitbarphukan (talk) 11:32, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: "Western Assam" fails precision under WP:CRITERIA, because it is not well defined: the definition of "western Assam" here ("between the Manas River in the east, Sankosh in the west") does not include the Kamrup region, which is also under discussion here. Chaipau (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As i already said, Lower Assam denotes two things, an old colonial district consisting a very small part of Western Assam, and Lower Assam Division, which historically contained Western Assam, Meghalaya state excluding Garo hills and Central Assam. This article is about region name Western Assam. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 19:20, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This looks like WP:OR. The definition of "Western Assam" here (defined as "western Assam between the Manas River in the east, Sankosh in the west") does not even cover the Kamrup region. Western Assam is an ill-defined region and could cover any western region. Lower Assam is well-defined and unambiguous, when it is related to the administrative region. Chaipau (talk) 21:06, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Poor sourcing, read properly its subjects area within Western Assam. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 21:27, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, and it does not include Kamrup. This implies that Western Assam is an ill-defined region. "Western Assam" can be used to define any region that shares its western boundary with that of Assam. So it fails WP:CRITERIA. Chaipau (talk) 21:14, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Subject i.e Golden langurs (Trachypithecus geei), is now limited to said part of Western Assam. As you are trying to push something out of nothing, it is unfruitful to discuss issue with you further. भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 05:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nomenclature Ambiguity

Nomenclature ambiguity - please refer to above section and any related archive.

Western Assam "region"

Western Assam is a "region" name.

Scholars have been consistently using this name (not Lower Assam) to refer western "region" of the Brahmaputra Valley.

This is also the region where a particular ethnic people are concentrated.

Lower Assam"division"

Lower Assam is a "division" name.

This division is one that frequently added to or removed from. For this "division" you have the Lower Assam Division article.

Aagasti (talk) 01:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]