Talk:Low Bridge (song)

Lyrics

The page included the lyrics to "Low Bridge." I think the lyrics should be removed ~~because~~ as per Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. -- danntm 17:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As a further note, WP:SONG recommends against posting lyrics unless we are certain that the song lyrics are in the public domain. I would like any input, advice anyone could provide. -- danntm 18:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Because the song was written in 1905, the copyright has expired. All works published in the U.S. before 1923 are now in the public domain. By contrast, Springsteen's recording of the song will be protected by copyright for at least the next 70 years. See Cornell chart of copyright durations.
  I think that the lyrics should be included in the article because they help to identify the song. They're short, they're more useful than burdensome, and text is cheap. JD Lisa 04:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate your concern. My main concern was that wikipedia is not a collection of primary source material, and to main consistency with other song articles that do not include the lyrics. However, the lyrics may certainly be included in wikisource. -- danntm ^T _C 16:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree, because the most important goal of an encyclopedia is to provide comprehensive information on notable subjects, not to maintain consistency across all song articles. Furthermore, lyrics in the public domain are clearly permissible under Wikipedia policy and guidelines. WP:SONG says: "Do not include the song's entire lyrics... in the article unless you are certain they are in the public domain." Also, WP:NOT states that "...the article may not consist solely of the lyrics, but has to primarily contain information about authorship, date of publication, social impact, etc." This article complies with both of those policies. JD Lisa 22:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Enthusiastic keep vote: This song is of high significance. It links with a channel for "opening to the West" [The Mid-West. It is a useful cultural component for school lessons on the Erie Canal. Dogru144 09:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a source that justifies the lyrics as quoted here? These lyrics differ from the lyrics at either of the two external sources referenced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.38.148 (talk) 15:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the original 1905 text. I posted what appeared to be the consensus text based on a web search. Folk songs often have new verses added over time, and I think all verses in widespread use should be included here. If anyone has the original, maybe it should be given first position in the article, followed by any additional verses added by later musicians as part of the folk music process. JD Lisa (talk) 10:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the original lyrics are the following, due to a rather old recording and a 1920's song book containing them:

Low Bridge, Everybody Down or Fifteen Years on the Erie Canal (William S. Allen, Haviland Publishing Co.)

I've got an old mule and her name is Sal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal, She's a good old worker and a good old pal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal. We've hauled some barges in our day, Filled with lumber, coal and hay— And every inch of the way I know From Albany to Buffalo-

Chorus: Low bridge, everybody down, Low bridge! We're coming to a town! You can always tell your neighbor, you can always tell your pal, If you've ever navigated on the Erie Canal.

We'd better look around for a job, Old Gal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal, You bet your life I wouldn't part with Sal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal. Giddap there, Gal, we've passed that lock, We'll make Rome 'fore six o'clock— So one more trip and then we'll go Right straight back to Buffalo.

Chorus: Low bridge, everybody down; Low bridge, I've got the finest mule in town. Once a man named Mike McGintey tried to put over Sal, Now he's way down at the bottom of the Erie Canal.

Oh! where would I be if I lost my pal? Fifteen years on the Erie Canal, Oh, I'd like to see a mule as good as Sal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal. A friend of mine once got her sore, Now he's got a broken jaw, 'Cause she let fly with her iron toe And kicked him in to Buffalo.

Chorus: Low bridge, everybody down; Low bridge, I've got the finest mule in town. If you're looking for trouble, better stay away, She's the only fighting donkey on the Erie Canal.

I don't have to call when I want my Sal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal, She trots from the stall like a good old gal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal. I eat my meals with Sal each day, I eat beef and she eats hay, She ain't so slow if you want to know, She put the "Buff" in Buffalo.

Chorus: Low bridge, everybody down, Low bridge, I've got the finest mule in town. Eats a bale of hay for dinner, and on top of that my Sal Tries to drink up all the water in the Erie Canal.

You'll soon hear them sing all about my gal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal, It's a darned fine ditty 'bout my darn fool Sal, Fifteen years on the Erie Canal. Oh, any band will play it soon, Darned fool words and darned fool tune; You'll hear it sung everywhere you go, From Mexico to Buffalo.

Chorus: Low bridge, everybody down, Low bridge, I've got the finest mule in town. She's a perfect, perfect lady, and she blushes like a gal If she hears you sing about her and the Erie Canal. FroggyNathan (talk) 17:45, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Those lyrics were from American Ballads & Folk Songs, first published in 1934. Under these lyrics it says "Words and music by William S. Allen (F- B. Haviland Publishing Co., New York City). Reprinted by special permission of the copyright owners." (I read elsewhere that they got his first name wrong, it is Thomas as indicated currently.) That phrase implies that these may have been the original copyrighted lyrics. Those lyrics and the music are contained on these pages:

[1] [2] [3] Should these lyrics be edited into the article? FroggyNathan (talk) 20:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It supposed to rhyme:

Sorry, I've been fighting about this since elementary school. Buffalo and way don't rhyme. There are plenty of versions that make it "And every inch of the way we know" or "And w'know ev'ry inch of the way we go", but anything that doesn't rhyme is wrong, and Pete Seeger be damned... it's 15 years, not miles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.119.183.254 (talk) 16:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A thorough discussion of the song, including a link to the original 1913 sheet music--which contains the original lyrics--is here: [4] Sandy Schuman (talk) 16:38, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't trust the eriecannalsong.com link-- the author contradicts themself by writing that the song is a "folksong" (which it plainly is not as already established in this article) and then writing at the bottom that Thomas S. Allen is a Tin Pan Alley songwriter (i.e. a commercial writer who was never on the canal). They also say "the lyrics... has changed over time" when one cannot simply see a change in published, well-sourced lyrics due to popular mis-use and then unilaterally say "the lyrics have changed." It's also weasel-word-ish to say "the current line... is a change from the original line" after saying that the piece "has changed over time," as though the most recent version the author heard is the only legitimate "current" version. Who knows when the most "recent" version the author heard was? Yesterday? Fifty years ago when they were a kid?) – NewkirkPlaza (talk) 15:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Miles or years?

The quoted lyrics say 15 "miles" on the canal. The photo of the front page of the lyrics sheet says 15 "years", not miles. I suggest that this discrepancy should be reconciled, somehow. Stwiso (talk) 05:40, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a discrepancy, but I suspect it's not reconcilable, because the cover is apparently just wrong. It may have been a marketing decision, or an error by the illustrator. Can someone who has a copy please confirm that the discrepancy exists in the first edition? JD Lisa (talk) 01:34, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is just drift in the lyrics over time. The song is almost 100 years old. Here is a survey by asking for the number of hits on Google using the phrase "fifteen years on the erie canal" on July 27, 2010: 32,800 hits. For "fifteen miles on the erie canal" we get: 25,000 hits. So I think the "confusion" is pervasive. I would hypothesize from the cover that the song began as years and has drifted over time. I think there is no correct answer what are the current lyrics to the song in July of 2010.

Historically, we need to find a copy of the original sheet music to ask how it was originally written. As a side note: as a child I learned it as 15 years. CaptainMeerkat —Preceding undated comment added 16:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC).[reply]

It's fifteen miles on the Erie Canal, this is because they changed horses/mules after fifteen miles. 63.198.18.61 (talk) 04:25, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"urban" legend, or an explanation in search of a question. The Canal is 350 miles long, and took about a week to travel end to end when it opened. It would be odd to have a trusty old mule if you had to change her out a couple times a day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.228.33 (talk) 18:04, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the 1950s, we in Rome NY, learned it years, and only after Pete Seegar sang "miles" was there any argument. Some say that was the speed limit, some say that was a horse change. I say neither. It was always a song about making friends and traveling along the canal for 15 YEARS, which IS the original inside the music sheet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.58.179.241 (talk) 01:12, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like there's an emerging consensus for "years" instead of "miles" based on reliable memories and an original copy. I think I was initially wrong. I'm going to change it. JD Lisa (talk) 14:53, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When was the song written?

The article says the song was written in 1905 but there is no documentation given. The sheet music gives the copyright date of 1913. If there is no documentation for a 1905 authorship date, I think 1913 should be given instead. --Sandy Schuman (talk) 22:23, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Passed that lock vs. here comes a lock

In the discussion of lyric changes, the article says speeding up for a lock is not a standard course of action. Actually, it makes perfect sense. A lock goes through a cycle. Barges can only enter at the start of the cycle. So if the narrator sees the upcoming lock is at that point (barges are already entering or are about to enter), he would want to speed up to get there in time to catch that cycle. Otherwise, he'll have to wait until the next cycle, and then he won't make Rome by 6 o'clock. (The 19th C. equivalent of speeding up for a yellow light?) KevinBTheobald (talk) 21:28, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Personal arguments for and against a particular lyric are irrelevant-- the only thing that matters is secondary sources. Unfortunately, I think finding the "correct" lyric is a lost cause at this point considering how much the lyrics have drifted over the last 100 years and how much incorrect mythology has built up around the song. NewkirkPlaza (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]