Talk:Love Me Like You

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Love Me Like You has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 18, 2016	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on March 1, 2016.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the Little Mix song "Love Me like You" garnered comparisons to The Ronettes and The Supremes for its retro doo-wop style?

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Sources

Artwork

Reviews

Composition

Live performances

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/watch-little-mix-perform-heartbreaking-6798205 Lorraine

Music video

Requested move 12 February 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Given the the fact that the relevant style guideline is disputed, and unlikely to be resolved soon, we can defer to the consensus here that "Like" should be capitalized in this title. Cúchullain ^t/c 17:01, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Love Me like You → Love Me Like You – While the discussion on the central issue takes place at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters, we should discuss the title of the song. Is "like" a preposition or not? If so, WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CT say lowercase it. Otherwise, uppercase it. Similar to Years Past Matter and People Like Us (film), there is a slight hint of double entendre. George Ho (talk) 17:09, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

But there is already a discussion taking place. — Calvin999 17:16, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It should be separate from the central discussion. --George Ho (talk) 17:26, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The title is a double entendre but the MOS doesn't actually care whether it is or not. (See both discussions at People Like Us, where the MOS contingent ignored that point.) On the other hand, MOS:CT is simply wrong. It's currently being enforced as though it were superior in authority to WP:USECOMMONNAMES, WP:RELIABLESOURCES, and WP:READERSFIRST, which is patently false.

The original artists and their company capitalize the word; every independent source on this page either capitalizes the like or uses allcaps; every page with an allcaps title that has running text capitalizes the like there; and Wikipedia shouldn't be in the business of second-guessing them. See also the fiasco hidden in the archives at Star Trek Into Darkness. — $Llywelyn II$ 04:00, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's irrelevant that sources capitalise it. They always capitalise every word in a song title regardless or whether it's correct or not. — Calvin999 11:50, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Except that's untrue. Some opt for allcaps or nocaps formatting to avoid worrying about it, but—just finding the first counterexample—M Magazine uses standard formatting for Liv and Maddie and Austin and Ally. I've been through all these links and none of them use lowercase "like". — $Llywelyn II$ 15:12, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Important note: This RM discussion has been hidden from view by the nominator, but not closed. Additional comments were added later. It is not clear whether there is an RM discussion happening here or not. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:34, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Reviving the discussion, BarrelProof, due to additional comments. George Ho (talk) 03:43, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: ~~I think, in this context, "like" is a preposition.~~ A typical lyric from the song is "'Cause I realized the truth, they can't love me like you". So I think "love me like you" means "love me the way that you love me". As a preposition with fewer than five letters, MOS:CT would say to use lowercase. Even if it's a conjunction rather than a preposition, MOS:CT says to use lowercase for short coordinating conjunctions, and generally defines "short" as having four letters or fewer, so it seems to recommend lowercase either way. This seems rather similar to prior instances of discussions for Talk:Do It like a Dude and Talk:Moves like Jagger. —BarrelProof (talk) 04:26, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is unambiguously a conjunction. In the lyrics, it has a single usage, it is a fragment of "[they can't] love me like you [love me]". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:27, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK, maybe. But as I said, MOS:CT recommends lowercase for (short coordinating) conjunctions too. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:15, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, BarrelProof, "like" is a subordinating conjunction, not coordinating conjunction. It's not one of FANBOYS, so it can be uppercased if it's not exactly a preposition but a double entendre. --George Ho (talk) 22:37, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Given your prior involvement in several of these conversations, I'm sure you're already aware those two were not representative discussions. See instead those at "Smells Like Teen Spirit", "Just Like Heaven", Sounds Like Teen Spirit, People Like Us, "I Like It Like That", "On a Night Like This", "Walks Like Rihanna", Fly Like an Eagle, "Smells Like Teen Spirit" (again), and People Like Us (again). Even if the MOS were correct about "like" (which it probably isn't), it and WP:TM have opt outs in the case of universal stylizations. That seems to be the case here, in the 44 citations we have so far. —

Llywelyn II

15:23, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

These various discussions have not all involved quite the same issues, and some of those have not had formal RM discussions or resulted from "no consensus" declarations or were only discussed briefly in relatively ancient Wikihistory (e.g. 2007). The two I listed were ones that did have reasonably recent RM discussions ~~with consensus outcomes~~ and seemed very similar (although it appears that Talk:Do It like a Dude was a "no consensus" declaration that was coupled with your Walks Like Rihanna case and Nuttin' but Love, which later reached a consensus to follow MOS:CT in another RM). There are others that went the other way as well. Some candidates include Someone like Me, Someone like You (Adele song), Love You like a Love Song, Bridge over Troubled Water, A Winter amid the Ice, See, amid the Winter's Snow, and Four past Midnight. (I've unfortunately been paying more attention to looking for exceptions to the MOS:CT & MOS:TM guidelines than to cases that support the guidelines, so I can't really speak to relative frequencies.) If the idea is to change the general guideline, that's probably something that should be done in the discussion taking place elsewhere, as previously noted. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:01, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 07:14, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose while there is an ongoing discussion. FWIW Commonname has no relevance to style and a consistent house style is more important. --Richhoncho (talk) 10:00, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- It likely won't make a difference to you, but WP:TM and the MOS both have caveats that we should follow stylizations universally adopted by the secondary sources. See also the extensive Star Trek Into Darkness archives. At least at the moment, with the 44 citations currently given, capitalized "Like" here is just such a case. — $Llywelyn II$ 15:16, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - User:LlywelynII, you are right, but I find it rather silly to be arguing about visuals in an aural tradition. You will also note my absence at the discussion, but I do appreciate you bringing the discussion to my attention on my talkpage. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 15:22, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    - Capitalization of the titles of works of art is precisely the same scope as this discussion. As realized by the dozens (hundreds?) of editors at that 130k+ word dispute, in the end, COMMON & RS > MOS, even if it did advocate a lower case here. — $Llywelyn II$ 15:25, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Llywelyn. No reason why Wikipedia should ignore reliable sources on the matter and the ongoing discussion shows a clear preference for following sources and uppercasing Like. Calidum ¤ 15:38, 14 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Don't like the fact that this RM was started during the MOS discussion, but most reliable sources use the proposed new capitalization. sst✈^(conjugate) 16:49, 19 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support. However, this move should not take place until after the MOS discussion is finalized. ONR (talk) 18:48, 25 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Old Naval Rooftops (talk • contribs)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 30 December 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 13:38, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Love Me Like You → Love Me like You – Per MOS:TITLECAPS, "like" should be in lowercase. The "potential exceptions" do not apply because, in this case, "like" is a preposition. The exception only applies to non-prepositions (Apply our five-letter rule (above) for prepositions except when a significant majority of current, reliable sources that are independent of the subject consistently capitalize, in the title of a specific work, a word that is frequently not a preposition, as in "Like" and "Past"). The title (with context) can be expanded to "They can't love me as you do" (original lyric: "They can't love me like you"). "Like" is therefore a preposition and should be lowercase. An example of a correctly named article is Love Me like You Do, which is the same type of title as this one ("like" is used in the same way). There needs to be consistency within Wikipedia, so it’s either this article or that article gets renamed. D🎉ggy54321 ^{(happy new year!)} 03:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strange isn't it, the 11-charting song from 2015 has a giant article, the 12-charting song from 2005 has a redirect. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:39, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as unsupported by the predominance of usage in the references used for the article. MOS:TITLECAPS must never supersede WP:VERIFIABILITY. Also the five-letter rule used in it is arbitrarily set by Wikipedia editors - not a universal rule. See recent discussion at Talk:Spider-Man: Far From Home#Requested move 29 August 2020. -- Netoholic @ 09:55, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Netoholic: that's a problem then, because it effectively makes MOS:TITLECAPS redundant. Richard3120 (talk) 15:02, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Now you're onto something. -- Netoholic @ 11:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As previously (Talk:Love Me Like You#Requested move 12 February 2016), I don't have a committed position in the MOS versus The World battles, but in this title the word "like" is NOT a preposition, it is a conjunction. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is absolutely correct - "like" as a preposition means "similar to", but as a conjunction it means "in the manner of" or "in the way of", which is clearly the meaning here. Richard3120 (talk) 14:25, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose since "like" is not a preposition here. Dicklyon (talk) 05:26, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.