Talk:Louis Oosthuizen

Pronunciation: Need South African IPA Help

The text of this ESPN.com article, posted after his outstanding second day at the 2010 Open, says he pronounces his name "West-hi-zen"; but at the beginning of the accompanying video interview, he's asked directly for the correct pronunciation and he says it more like "WOEST-hay-zen" (the first syllable is somewhere between "west" and "woost".[1] Someone who is comfortable with the application of IPA to South African pronunciation should watch the video and have a shot at transcribing this. --Arxiloxos (talk) 21:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

You didn't view the video very carefully (if it is the Nix interview of Louis). Louis Oosthuizen has consistently pronounced his name WEST-high-zen. The Afrikaans pronunciation is OOWEST-high-zen, hence the simpler (easier to say) pronunciation (WEST-high-zen) stated by Louis in the Nix video. The ESPN reporter (Nix) asked him how to pronounce his last name, and he said, "WEST-high-zen," in response to which the reporter repeated back to him, "WOOST-hay-zen," clearly MIS-pronouncing it (as if she was not even listening to him), in response to which Louis said, "Very good," either because he was too polite to correct her, or because he was tired of correcting people. Ever since then, ESPN and the Golf Channel have consistently MIS-pronounced his last name OOST-hay-zen, or sometimes WOOST-hay-zen. Recently, there has been an effort by some people at the Golf Channel to pronounce his name correctly. Erik and Holly on Morning Drive began pronouncing it WEST-hay-zen (still incorrect, but better), and Mike Ritz correctly pronounced it WEST-high-zen. However, on Monday, the day after Louis almost won the 2012 Masters, Erik and Holly were back to the official ESPN and Golf Channel MIS-pronunciation, OOST-hay-zen. I haven't yet seen/heard Mike Ritz on the Golf Channel since Louis almost won the Masters, but I'm expecting him to likewise return to the official ESPN and Golf Channel MIS-pronunciation, OOST-hay-zen. It appears to me that the powers that be at ESPN and the Golf Channel have issued an edict that everyone at ESPN and the Golf Channel SHALL MIS-pronounce Louis' last name OOST-hay-zen, whether they like it or not. I think that the decision of ESPN and the Golf Channel to single out Louis Oosthuizen to INTENTIONALLY MIS-pronounce his last name is SHAMEFUL. Whereas they are religious about correctly pronouncing Miguel Angel's last name (Jimenez) as hee-MEN-eth, they are equally religious about INCORRECTLY pronouncing Louis' last name (Oosthuizen) as OOST-hay-zen instead of WEST-high-zen, even though WEST-high-zen is easier for English speakers to pronounce than hee-MEN-eth is. Everyone knows that intentionally mispronouncing a person's name is an insult to that person. Whereas ESPN and the Golf Channel are careful NOT to insult anyone else, they are equally careful to consistently INSULT Louis Oosthuizen. Louis appears to be a nice person and a good golfer. Why ESPN and the Golf Channel have singled out Louis for this INSULT is a mystery to me. Golf is supposed to be a gentleman's game. A gentleman does not intentionally mispronounce someone's name. When the Golf Channel does this to Louis, it fails to live up to its own standard of gentlemanly conduct, and consequently I think less of the people at the Golf Channel for doing so. See the following web page: www.itispronouncedwest-high-zen.blogspot.com. 7Jim7 (talk) 22:13, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm South African and Afrikaans speaking, and know this surname well. Unfortunately I do not know IPA at all but the closest to an English "translation" i can come up with is "oo-wist-hay-sin". The "oo" is as in boom or room. The hay isn't 100% correct. It's a more round rather than flat sound. The lips should be pushed together in the shape of a little circle. But there is definitely not a w sound right at the beginning, though i can see how it could almost sound like that to the untrained ear. Funny enough, Oost is Afrikaans for east - the exact opposite of west! 41.174.9.40 (talk) 22:50, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's audio of him pronouncing his name ([2]). It sounds like "WEST-hay-zen" to me. --Zimbabweed (talk) 23:29, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm South African and completely fluent in both SA English and Afrikaans. There is definitely no "w" sound at all. Unfortunately it appears that IPA is not well known in SA so I'll try describing the sounds: "Oost" the vowel is identical to "poor" in English IPA ʊə - "hui" sounds like "hay" (what horses eat) IPA eɪ - "zen" the vowel is a schwa so it sounds like "zin" rather than the name of an oriental philisophy IPA ə Roger (talk) 14:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

As a South African I agree with Roger. Enough with the w at the beginning, there is no w at the beginning. The other South African three comments up also gets it just about right. Whether the "zen" is pronounced like the English word "sin" or "zin" is a matter of taste. I suppose "zin" is technically more correct. The only place I slightly disagree with roger is in the exact pronunciation of the "hui" part. It's pretty close to "hay" but not exactly the same. It's a slightly more rounded sound, but "hay" will pretty much do unless someone is able to find the exact correct phonetic symbols. 196.14.188.209 (talk) 14:42, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree. The "hay" part is problematic for English - the "ui" diphtong in Afrikaans does not occur at all in English - so "hay" is probably the closest we can get. Roger (talk) 16:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, here is what I hear: /ˌluwi ˈoəsthœjzən/. The pronunciation /'luː iː 'wu:st haɪ zɛn/ given in our article is definitely wrong. It also does not correspond to the curious LOO-ee WEST-high-zin from the article in The New York Times that is cited as the source. WEST-high-zin gives a close approximation in English phonemes of the pronunciation of the (existing!) name Westhuizen. (Oosthuizen means East houses; Westhuizen means West houses.) Even stranger is that the article's title is: Still Learning the Leader’s Name? Start With an ‘Oh!’. Did someone try to make a joke? The /o/ I hear does tend to the /ʊ/ mentioned by Roger (and the distinction is hard to make from a single sound sample, as the two are rather close), but my bet is on /o/.  --Lambiam 16:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Is he a native speaker of Afrikaans? If so, we need that pronunciation in the lede, perhaps at the expense of the English one (unless there is a common English-language one). Be careful of sources on pronunciation from popular media, not just because people perceive foreign-language sounds unreliably, but because Americans and the British may map non-English sounds onto different English phonemes. From this discussion, as well as my very limited knowledge of Dutch phonology run through WP:IPA for Dutch and Afrikaans, my best guess is Dutch pronunciation: [ˈlu.i ˈoəst.ɦœjzən], which is pretty close to what you suggested, Lambiam. Thoughts? — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 08:27, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

This looks spot on to me, having now seen the IPA for dutch and Afrikaans: Dutch pronunciation: [ˈlu.i ˈoəst.ɦœjzən] Good work guys. 196.14.188.209 (talk) 10:19, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes I agree, you've got it! Roger (talk) 10:27, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

But now it still says English pronunciation. Shouldn't it say Afrikaans... Erik (talk) 11:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

There is no difference between Afrikaans and South African English pronunciation when it comes to personal names. Roger (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

But /ˈlu.i ˈoəst.ɦœjzən/ doesn't fit into the key at WP:IPA for English, so I'm going to change it to the Afrikaans template. If he is a native English speaker, or if there is a standard pronunciation in English which is not just the Afrikaans pronunciation in an English context, then that should be there, too. I would anglicize it to /ˈluː.i ˈoʊst.hɔɪzən/, but I'm an American who's not used to Afrikaans. — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 17:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

No he is not a native English speaker - I thought it was obvious that he is Afrikaans speaking. Yes there is "a "standard" pronunciation in an English context" - in South African English we pronounce Afrikaans names "as is" without modification. I don't understand the point of trying anglicise a non-English name. It is in fact an impossible task because the English IPA lacks the correct "ui" diphthong. The "inogolo" reference is just as wrong as the previously quoted one from the New York Times. I believe the initial "w" given by these non South African sources is a mistake for the slight plosive or glottal stop (not sure of the correct terminology) at the start. Roger (talk) 09:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Just because he speaks Afrikaans at home doesn't mean he doesn't speak English at a native or near-native level—people can be multilingual (in fact, if English-speaking South Africans can produce natural Afrikaans pronunciations that suggests they are bilingual themselves). If there is one way he says his name in English, and that way uses the sounds of English and not just Afrikaans, then it should be in the lede. If the English-language media (both in SA and elsewhere) has a customary way to say his name which differs from Afrikaans (which, as you have pointed out, it will have to because some of those sounds just don't occur in English), then it should be in the lede. It isn't as you say "impossible" to anglicize the name, but it would be a rough approximation, as it is between most language pairs. In any case, we shouldn't attempt to anglicize it ourselves, and we shouldn't put the Afrikaans pronunciation in {{IPA-en}} and call it good, because the key that links to doesn't give any info on how to pronounce the Afrikaans sounds. The English pronunciation that's in the article right now was added by someone after we fixed the Afrikaans, and despite my doubts, I was hesitant to remove sourced material so I demoted it to a footnote. If you feel confident enough of its inaccuracy, go ahead and be bold. — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 17:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Trying to address all your points: Firstly, nobody ever claimed he is not bilingual, in fact he has spoken English on television so we know he can do it. The thing is that we (English speaking South Africans) do in fact use Afrikaans sounds for saying Afrikaans names. (A monolingual English speaking South African is an extremely rare creature - A minimum of two languages is compulsory in High School and until recently the only second language available was Afrikaans). Sorry for causing confusion - when I said the sound does not occur in English (other than SA English) I actually meant it does not appear in WP:IPA_for_English, so we are forced to "borrow" it from the Dutch/Afrikaans IPA guide. If we are absolutely not allowed to do that the best approximation would be to go with 'it sounds like "hay"'. So to recap: Oost - use "oo" as in "poor"; hui - sounds like "hay"; zen - the vowel is a schwa. That is the best I can do with only the sounds available in WP:IPA_for_English. If you really listen very closely you might detect a slight glottal stop at the start of "Oost" - which may explain the "phantom W" that some sources give. Roger (talk) 18:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Did we have to remove the "English" re-spelling for Louis' name from the article? The IPA symbols by themselves are not helpful to most of us. (I hear re-spelling is against policy, but stupid rules are meant to be broken). I think we should have IPA and a re-spelling that's easy to use. And just for the record, I hear it as LOO-ee OOIST-eye-zən (from the External Link audio). --Kenatipo (talk) 19:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Just want to back Roger up - the South African English pronunciation of Oosthuizen is exactly the same as the Afrikaans pronunication. To try to anglicize it would be ridiculous. 196.14.188.209 (talk) 15:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Number then month or month then number

Are we going to have dates listed on this page as number month year or month number year? --InformationContributor11 (talk) 22:16, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

This page uses DMY dates. It is written in South African English so dates must conform to the standard usage per WP:ENGVAR Roger (talk) 12:57, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Players with runner-up in all four majors

This statement needs edited. Nick Faldo never had a runner-up finish in the Masters (other than his 3 Masters wins, he never even finished inside the Top-10 in any other Masters start). When Faldo is removed, that would leave eight, unless someone else knows the correct ninth. Personally, I had always heard of only seven golfers that had accomplished this (I didn't know about Craig Wood). It's possible the author has mistakenly listed Faldo from the list of those who have "Top 2" finishes (either win or 2nd) in every major, which is a category that includes all these golfers, Faldo, Jordan Spieth, Gary Player, Tiger Woods, Ray Floyd and a few other golfers. Raszoo (talk) 05:40, 20 June 2021 (UTC)