Talk:London Underground S7 and S8 Stock

S7 Stock interior image caption

@SilkTork: You undid an edit I made to "London Underground S7 and S8 Stock" which removed the specific identification of a photograph as being a Circle Line service. The edit summary for the "undo" is not clear, simply stating "there are indications, so the info is factual and helpful". I can't see these indications in the image. What or where are they? Bazza (talk) 10:27, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Mainly the file information by the author of the photograph. We tend to trust the photographer to know when and where they took a photograph. If there is doubt about the matter the first step would be to consult with the photographer. Failing that, open a discussion on the file talkipage to establish if the file information should be amended. I hope that helps. SilkTork (talk) 11:18, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

191 or 192?

So the original Metronet order of S-Stock was for 190 trains, sure. Many, many sources have the final order being 191 trains, as per the references in the article. But then there are other sources - including from TfL and the GLA - that an additional train was ordered as part of the Croxley Rail Link project, taking the total to 192.

• Rail Express - FINAL ‘S’ STOCK DELIVERED BUT WORK GOES ON "The 192nd and final ‘S’ Stock train was delivered to London Underground on November 10, more than 6½ years after the first pre-production train arrived. The fleet, which has taken nine years to deliver from the signing of the contract, is made up of 59 eight-car units that operate on the Metropolitan Line and 133 seven-car trains that operate across the Circle, District and Hammersmith & City lines."
• From August 2016 "TfL's quarterly finance, investment and operational performance reports - Quarter 4 2015/16 "Production of the last of the 192 trains (an additional train was added to the order for the Metropolitan line extension project) in the S-Stock fleet has been completed."
• From 2017 Metropolitan Line Extension (MLX) – TfL Funding "Of the £38.8m that has been spent post-transfer, £15.5m has been invested in an additional train, which is already in passenger service."
• On TfL's website as of March 2020.... Improvements & projects - Four Lines Modernisation "A fleet of 192 modern, air-conditioned, walk-through S-stock trains run across the Circle, Hammersmith & City, District and Metropolitan lines."
• The most recent Rolling Stock data sheet I've seen has 191 as the total.

Can anyone weigh in? Who's got a good, accurate, well trusted source? Given the sources, I think we might need to add +1 throughout this article! Turini2 (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Have made these changes - waiting 2 months for anyone to disagree seems more than reasonable! There's plenty of primary and secondary sources on the subject, which have been inserted into the article. Turini2 (talk) 12:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

According to this Rolling Stock Unit formations and Asset sheet that I found, the extra 8-car S stock trains (21323-22323-25384-24323-24324-25324-22324-21324 and 21327-22327-25386-24327-24328-25328-22328-21328) are part "S7 stock plus 1 extra car" trains. So there were actually 192 (58 S8 stock, 134 S7 stock) trains built. And plus, it also seems that the Croxley Rail Link project was left abandoned. Edgar Searle (talk) 07:19, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I reverted the edit as the numbers (130+60 = 191) don't total or match to match the other sources - I think we'll need to find a decent combination of recent primary and secondary sources to be sure. Yes, the Croxley Rail Link was cancelled in 2016. Turini2 (talk) 10:55, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Electrification

630 V DC is the primary London Underground electrification, but I believe it's only the subsurface lines that have been converted to 750 V DC. The only sections where which the tracks are used by deep tube and subsurface trains are:

• between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge (Piccadilly and Metropolitan lines).
• at Neasden depot and between Wembley Park and Neasden (Jubilee and Metropolitan lines).
• between Hammersmith and Turnham Green, Acton Town or Ealing Common (Piccadilly and District lines).

Deep tube trains can only pick up 630 V DC, but the S stock is capable of picking up to 750 V DC. Feel free to share me your thoughts below. Thanks, Edgar Searle (talk) 10:38, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Replacement reasons?

Why did the S7/S8 stock replace the A60/62 Stock, the C69/77 Stock and the D78 Stock? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clrichey (talk • contribs) 23:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

The A60/62 trains and the C69/77 trains were very old and pretty much clapped out. Less so the D78 trains, but I think TfL wanted a standard design for all four sub-surface lines. -- Alarics (talk) 08:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Take a read of the article! It's pretty comprehensive why new trains are an improvement - faster acceleration, significantly more reliable (7x more than A & C stock and 3x more than D stock), more capacity thanks to walk through carriages, longer trains, air conditioning etc... Having one unified type of train rather than 3 also makes maintenance more standardised, easier and cheaper. Turini2 (talk) 12:50, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

S7 and S8 quantities

The article says that 133 trains are S7s and 59 are S8s but the list of cars shows 268 sets of S7s (134 trains) and 116 sets (58 trains) of S8s. Which is correct? 82.45.172.71 (talk) 12:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Both, really. See

• Pritchard, Robert (2023). UK Metro & Light Rail Systems Including London Underground (3rd ed.). Sheffield: Platform 5 Publishing. pp. 53–63. ISBN 978-1-915984-04-3.

Basically, 58 S8 trains and 133 S7 trains were ordered, then the S7 order was increased by one train to 134 trains.

Then two further 8-car trains were required, so cars 25384/6 (with de-icing equipment) were removed from trains 21383/5 and inserted into trains 21323/7, making these two "S7+1" trains; two extra cars (23384/6, without de-icing equipment) were built, which replaced 25384/6 in trains 21383/5 restoring their S7 formation except that these were no longer de-icing trains.

Cars 25384/6 were later removed from trains 21323/7; but car 25386 was then placed in train 21323.

As of September 2023, no. 25386 is used as an eighth car in S7 train 21323, positioned between 22323 and 24323; and 25384 is stored spare.

That makes 58 true S8 trains; 133 true S7 trains; one "S7+1" train; and one spare car. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2024 (UTC)