Talk:Lolita (orca)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2021 and 16 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Faytj3920.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Information removal

I removed some information added today: some because it didn't cite any sources (such as who thinks Lolita may have problems being a mother at her advanced age, and why), and some because it was sparse on factual details and seemed to be more the product of conjecture. I also rewrote the section, keeping relevant details. If someone could cite any source that says Lolita is pregnant and due in autumn 2007, that would be wonderful. Lomaprieta 03:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Since there appears to be no proof regarding whether or not Lolita is actually pregnant, I have reverted to Guy91's edit. If this information is reinserted, please ensure you cite the source. Lomaprieta 00:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Content dispute over Lolita's pregnancy

I have removed the bit about Lolita's pregnancy again. Last time I did it, I left what I hoped was a polite note on the user's page asking them to please cite sources if they were going to re-add it. It was there again this morning, exact same content as before, no sources. The user has not replied to either message I left, either here or on their talk page.

I'm a dumb newbie and I'm not sure what to do about a content dispute that the other user won't even acknowlege. Can someone step in and help out? Or is there somewhere else I should be asking about this? Lomaprieta 02:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations

Okay, people on both sides. I've removed everything that wasn't verified by the reliable, independent sources cited in the article. Please feel free to restore information that you can cite sources for- reliable sources do not include web sites with a mission to 'free Lolita,' and indeed the aquarium's web site is not as good a reliable source as an independent book or newspaper article. Note that statements regarding Lolita's happiness or unhappiness are uncitable and thus unusuable, unless the whale herself has learned to speak English and begun giving interviews regarding her state of mind. This article has become a battleground, but Wikipedia only needs the verified facts. Please, only restore information when you add a reliable source with it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 15:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Google books lists a number of books which have discussed Lolita; that list might make a useful resource for anyone looking to expand this article, since there don't seem to be many sources listed on Google news. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

There's a Newsweek article about Lolita. Information in that article could be added (neutrally phrased, of course) to this one. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 18:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Assessment

Demoting to stub. There is no way this is a start-class article with almost no text. I note that there is a lot more information in List of captive orcas. --Cshashaty (talk) 17:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)Donlammers (talk) 20:02, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

This article is an abomination with unsourced material, references to a bogus Seaquarium link, and a clear anti-captivity agenda. Repeated attempts at remediation have failed. I've recommend that it be deleted. --Cshashaty (talk) 17:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Name Change

I think that we should change the articles name to Lolita/Tokitae (Orca). She is known as Tokitae to many american indians. Reshil B. (talk) 04:38, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Granny (orca) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chimo (killer whale) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:List of captive orcas which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Granny (killer whale) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Relationship of L25 to Tokitae

For a summary of southern resident orca genealogical research, see Southern resident orcas#Society.

I see that extreme, unscientific positions are being taken on both sides of this argument. The conspiracy theorist can claim that there is no biological proof of the relationship. How does the science work? Cetacean births occur underwater, out at sea, and biopsies are very rare, and an expense.

The scientific method for creating genealogies based on association was developed by Michael Bigg and his colleagues in the 1970s, and its high degree of accuracy has since been confirmed by decades of close scientific observation and ongoing use.

Younger people may not be aware that Bigg, Graeme Ellis, and collaborators examined photography of the captures to establish identities and probable social relationships based on body relationships, which are very significant among orcas. They did this a few years after the 1970 capture, which took place before Bigg's scientific surveys were underway.

The association method, supported statistically, established degrees of probability in the genealogical relationships when calves were not observed soon after their birth (scientific citation available). From my reading of scientific statements over the years, it apparently established that there was near-certainty of a close relationship of the elder L25 to Tokitae, whether that be mother, grandmother, aunt, etc. They were certainly in the same pod, speaking the same dialect, very probably in the same matriline. That L25 was specifically the mother is, nonetheless, only a medium probability in my view. Center for Whale Research, the official demographic and scientific site for the southern residents, in its most recent post used the wording, "L25 was possibly Sk’aliCh’elh-tenaut’s mother."

In the southern resident orca article, I have understatedly written that Tokitae was a close relative and probably a member of L25's matriline. This conservative statement should stand the test of time, and be suitable for standard reference articles in an encyclopedia. Rebecca Beecham Gotzl (talk) 19:20, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Age

Body length can reliably be used to estimate a juvenile orca's age within a certain range. In their latest post, Center for Whale Research gives Tokitae's age at the time of her capture as 3–6 years. No identifiable records of her may exist prior to capture. They would narrow the range. Rebecca Beecham Gotzl (talk) 23:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)