Talk:Llanfyllin

Welsh

Can whoever added the passage stating that half the population have a knowledge of welsh provide a citation for this? Also, what do you define as a "knowledge of welsh"? Kingbumpkin (talk) 20:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pleasant place to live

Whilst I personally agree that Llanfyllin is a pleasant place to live, I find the comment that it is "widely regarded" as such a bit difficult to believe. How widely? By whom? This comment seems a little biased and I suggest that it is at least changed to "locally regarded" unless a reasonable citation can be provided. If there are no objections I will edit accordingly. Kingbumpkin (talk) 20:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Workhouse Festival

I've removed the following sentaence about the workhouse festival as it is clearly POV: "which is rapidly gaining a reputation as one of the best small festivals in the country; a fantastic mix of music, green crafts, kids, healing and all the usual festival shenanigans". Can anyone contribute a non-POV description of the festival? Kingbumpkin (talk) 22:22, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for article expansion

I'm sure there's much more to be included from the parish history I just linked, though I don't know whether the volume is preview or full view. — $Llywelyn II$ 11:37, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Who was Saint Myllin?

The church in Llanfyllin is dedicated to Saint Myllin and it is clear that the town is named after this saint. Saint Myllin currently redirects to Mo Ling (614–697), an Irish saint and bishop. He is a reasonable candidate for Saint Myllin but his article does not mention a connection with Llanfyllin. The Clwyd-Powys Archaeological Trust says:

St Myllin, a corruption of St. Moling, is believed to have been a 7thC Irish monk. The dedication is unique, but tradition says he was buried under the altar of the early church.

The Mo Ling article says that he was buried at St. Mullin's in Ireland, with what appears to be a reliable citation. In the absence of any evidence of a link other than being Irish and having a similar name, we should not assume that the Saint at Llanfyllin was the Irish bishop. The redirect at Saint Myllin should be deleted. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:00, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The church's website says that there is a traditional link to the Irish bishop, without citing references. This is slim evidence, and I favour removing the redirect and mentioning the possible link in this article, with an explicit link to Mo Ling. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have added text about the possibility that Myllin was Mo Ling, and changed the Saint Myllin page to a redirect to Llanfyllin. I think this resolves the issue. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:08, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cain and Abel

Can we justify the wikilink from the streams named Cain and Abel to Cain and Abel, the sons of Adam and Eve? The cited reference does not make this link. The OS 1:10000 map names the Avon Cain as the main stream down the valley, and names a smaller stream joining from the south as the River Abel (Nant y Brithyll on one map), so the names are confirmed. Do these words have a meaning in Welsh other than the sons of Adam and Eve? Can we find a citation? Verbcatcher (talk) 02:04, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In Welsh "cain" is an adjective, which isn't relevant, phonetically it is similar(ish) to the Welsh for dog. I don't think "Abel" means anything but a name. "Nant y Brithyll", by the way means "trout brook". I think anyone with average general knowledge knows who Cain and Abel were if they have lived in a culture associated with Christianity, but that's not everyone, I would favour adding "(named after Cain and Abel in the Bible)" and lose the wikilink on the names of the river and the brook. Emerald (talk) 13:54, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer "(presumably named after Cain and Abel in the Bible)". Verbcatcher (talk) 14:40, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds perfect to me. Did you see my message on your Talk page? Emerald (talk) 14:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the Cain should be called a river. To quote Welsh wiki roughly translated:

Afon Cain is a river in north Powys which flows into the River Vyrnwy. Its source is just west of Llanfyllin. After flowing through Llanfyllin, it flows eastward, alongside the A490 highway, then turns north-east past Llanfechain, then east again to join Vyrnwy near Llansanffraid-ym-Mechain.

Continuing our discussion from your Talk page: I like your revised edit, apart from the point above, I will create a short article for Tomen yr Allt which will deal with the commotes (Mechain Is Coed and Mechain Uwch Coed) and the cantref of Mechain with appropriate wikilinks etc. (including Llanfyllin for Bodfach Hall). Emerald (talk) 15:38, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh! I don't think the Welsh used the term caput, from memory I think their term was "llys". The sources use 'caput' like they use 'capital' etc.Emerald (talk) 15:44, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Should we have River Cain or Afon Cain? Is there a convention? The OS map has Afon Cain and River Abel. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:38, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I don't have a preference. Emerald (talk) 19:02, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Created article Tomen yr Allt. Also created River Cain largely based on my translation of Welsh wiki, but with some citations and additional detail. Emerald (talk) 21:28, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Llys" IS the Welsh for "caput", I rang my mother and she tells me that it means "court" as in the king's court. Emerald (talk) 21:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well done! You should probably add Template:Translated page to Talk:River Cain. If you like infoboxes you could add one to River Cain, possibly based on Afon Tarell. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:00, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the advice. Added the Template:Translated page and I'll do an info box on the next rainy day!! Emerald (talk) 22:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Roman road

I don't mean to be picky, but; the Roman road is still leading to Offa's dyke, it was when the dyke was constructed, it just didn't when the Romans laid the road. Emerald (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the phrase was misleading. We could say "leading to the English border". Unless it was the end of the road it would have led somewhere else as well, probably to what is now Bala. In the map in Roman roads in Britain it might be the road to Viroconium (Wroxeter), but we shouldn't claim this without a citation. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:32, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you have found it on the map, why not just give the compass alignment of it, or "along part of the line between X and Y"? Oh, sorry for inventing "dest_oyed" Emerald (talk) 16:00, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It probably went along the valley. Soldiers don't like marching uphill! Verbcatcher (talk) 16:06, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have found a good source from 1911 (The Royal Commission on The Ancient and Historical Monuments and Constructions in Wales and Monmouthshire (1911). An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Wales and Monmouthshire, Vol. 1 - County of Montgomery. London: His Majesty's Stationery Office. p. 97.), which says:

Some remains of a Roman road are said (Mont. Coll., 1870, iii, 59) to have existed at a place called 'Street' in the township of Bodyddon, not marked on the Ordnance Survey sheets (9 N.E., 9 N.W., 9 S.W., 9 S.E.); of these remains, however, nothing could be gleaned in the parish.

We cite the claim of a Roman road with The National Gazeteer 1868 which is earlier and appears less authoritative than my 1911 source. On this basis we should delete the reference to a Roman road. Do you agree? Verbcatcher (talk) 16:07, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My OS map of Roman Britain shows the Bala-Ruthin road which goes north-east and then sweeps around to head NNW at Ruthin. There is nothing anywhere near Llanfyllin. I agree with deleting the reference to it. Emerald (talk) 16:20, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We could mention the local tradition of a Roman road (which seems credible), and of ancient lead smelting (from the 1911 source). Verbcatcher (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like an excellent compromise, neither agreeing with the claim or ignoring it. Roman roads were for armies, not slaves and serfs hauling lead and produce in rickety carts, after all. Emerald (talk) 17:13, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In view of the age of the source (1911) we would have to say that there was a local tradition. I think this is too tenuous for inclusion. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:38, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just answered your question on your Talk page, I didn't mean to ignore it yesterday. Emerald (talk) 17:29, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Population

Emerald, the url you have cited for the 2011 population statistic generates an error message No dataset selected. Can you fix this? Verbcatcher (talk) 21:27, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I had to select from numerous optional datasets to get to that point which generated the dataset as a spreadsheet, I think the URL will have to be http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/census/2011/out_of_term_population and then anyone wanting to check will have to do what I did. Emerald (talk) 21:40, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually they can go a stage further: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/census/2011/ot102ew Emerald (talk) 21:42, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Then they select area = Wales, Query data → Geography → Enter Llanfyllin → Search → Select W05000319: Llanfyllin → Download data and then download data for Excel Emerald (talk) 21:46, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Does http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/query/asv2htm.aspx work for you, or does it work for me because of my browser history? Emerald (talk) 21:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I cleared my History etc and it doesn't work, so it will have to be http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/census/2011/ot102ew and a note to say select the data set for Llanfyllin Ward (W05000319) Emerald (talk) 22:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

After some fiddling I got this table:

ward011qs:W05000319 : Llanfyllin 1,552
parish2011:W04000305 : Llanfyllin 1,552
oa2011:W00002463 204
bua2011:Llanfyllin BUA 1,115

I think 1552 is the Community figure including the surrounding area, and 1115 is for the built-up area. As the article is on the town I think "1,115 (built-up area)" is the better figure. I am thinking of clicking on "Tell us what you think...", but I had better calm down first! Verbcatcher (talk) 22:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed the citation for the 1552 figure for now, it seems to fit with the 2001 figure. Emerald (talk) 22:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have found this static link, which gives the 2011 population of the ward of Llanfyllin as 1,482 with 34.1% able to speak Welsh. You can get to more tables from here. Are you happy for us to use these, and to delete the 2001 figures? Verbcatcher (talk) 01:25, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The difference between the population figures of 1552 and 1482 may be due to the first figure being "out of term". Presumably 70 students were away at university or boarding school. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:44, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Static links are better and the numbers are within reasonable tolerances (70 out of 1500 is nothing these days). Will you make the changes to the main body and the info box? Emerald (talk) 03:03, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I removed the wikilink for population which didn't seem useful. I quoted the figure for "Can Speak Welsh" replacing "had knowledge of the Welsh language", because I think it is more straightforward. Is there any convention or usual practice in similar articles? Verbcatcher (talk) 03:19, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Great. I prefer "can speak Welsh" because it implies a degree of competence and confidence, and the ability to communicate a message, "knowledge of Welsh" could mean anything, it is undefinable. I have no idea if there is convention, but I am sure most Welsh people, speakers or not, will understand "can speak Welsh". Emerald (talk) 03:27, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to put the population in context with something like "a relatively large place in sparsely-populated Powys", but I haven't yet come up with a good phrase. Can you suggest something? Verbcatcher (talk) 16:26, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: I think the context would be established by a statement in the intro that it has been an important market town for the sparsely populated area since 1293. I also think it is worth putting in the figure 1115 for the BUA and 1482 for the ward, which illustrates the point. Emerald (talk) 19:50, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Emerald-wiki: Thanks. I've put "a small market town in a sparsely-populated area in Powys, Wales". Not "of Powys" because its teeming compared with other parts of Powys such as Mynydd Epynt. We shouldn't add this BUA population figure because it is not directly comparable with the ward population: one is an out-of-term figure. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:10, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Workhouse

I think Y Dolydd workhouse should be called Llanfyllin Union Workhouse, the official original name of the building. Emerald (talk) 21:54, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done Verbcatcher (talk) 22:35, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Named Y Doledd when it became an old-peoples home in 1930. [1] Verbcatcher (talk) 23:00, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Y Dolydd. It was built as the Llanfyllin Union Workhouse, so that is what the building is, subsequent establishments might have different names. Y Dolydd was probably the original name of the space where the workhouse was built - "meadows", free land for anyone's use perhaps. Emerald (talk) 23:14, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Some trivial history: One of my 3 x great aunts was in Llanfyllin Union Workhouse in 1879 for the birth of her illegitimate first child - that is the only connection I have, as far as I am aware. Emerald (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The first baptist in Britain

This Coflein page claims that Llanfyllin was named after the seventh century St. Melyn, the first baptist in Britain (‘Mewn Llwyn’ – ‘Saint in the Pool’), to whom the local church is dedicated. It cites an 1833 source. "The first baptist" is an unusual claim, and I am dubious that enough evidence could be found to claim this in a modern scholarly source. So I think we should not use this. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:28, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it's b*****ks. St Patrick was in Britain in the 5th-century and I am sure he baptised quite a few people! Melyn/Myllin is dated to 7th century if he is Moling Luachra, and if he isn't nobody knows his date, and the source you found even states 7th century, it seems highly, highly, highly improbable in my opinion - I am sure baptisms were taking place from the moment Christianity arrived - first baptist in Llanfyllin I COULD believe! We would be laughed at if it was included as a serious suggestion - I am laughing at Coflein at this very moment! Emerald (talk) 01:44, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also St Augustine, and arguably Amphibalus. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:52, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Quite! Emerald (talk) 01:54, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Iron Age (that's BC!!!!) enclosure they refer to is: Derwlwyn Coppice http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/306784/details/DERWLWYN+COPPICE%2C+ENCLOSURE/ or Derwlwyn Coppice Hillfort http://www.ancientmonuments.info/wa2935-derwlwyn-coppice-hillfort at 52°46′21″N 3°15′34″W / 52.7724°N 3.25939°W which is 0.5 km north of Llanfyllin. I think that might be worth inclusion, what do you think? Emerald (talk) 01:54, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cil Haul barrow is even older, it's bronze age. Both are listed in List of Scheduled prehistoric Monuments in Powys (Montgomeryshire). There's lots more history here. But we shouldn't try to include everything. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:22, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cil Haul is about 7 km away, but 0.5 km - I can walk that in 10 minutes! I thought I had trawled Coflein thoroughly but missed Derwlwyn, I find that quite exciting.... I like joining the dots, a history of occupation adds to the justification for building a fort at Tomen yr Allt.... if only we knew more about old Myllin, he is another dot I would like to join in the puzzle. Emerald (talk) 02:43, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Refuge/Asylum

"John Drummond, James II's Secretary of State in Scotland and a Roman Catholic, is said to have been hidden in the house when he fled to Llanfyllin for asylum after the Glorious Revolution of 1688.[citation needed]" - citation is ref 20. It is so easy to lose track when you moves things around isn't it? Emerald (talk) 02:04, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure I added a citation for this statement because one was lacking. I have completely lost track now!!! Emerald (talk) 02:14, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By ref 20 do you mean http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s-PRIC-SEB-1681.html ? This is about Thomas Price and I cannot see a mention of John Drummond (which is why I removed this citation). The article on John Drummond, 1st Earl of Melfort cites http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MGY/Llanfyllin/Gaz1868.html but I can't find Drummond there either. Am I missing something? (Also, have you seen my question under Population above?) Verbcatcher (talk) 02:40, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, I was wrong. I am convinced I did find a mention though, but I can't track it down. (I made an edit and then reversed it). Emerald (talk) 02:44, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A quick web search for john drummond llanfyllin only seems to show sites that derive from Wikipedia. If you can't track down your mention we should remove the claim from here and from John Drummond, 1st Earl of Melfort. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:02, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I still can't find anything, so it must go. I have responded to your population question too, which I had missed. Emerald (talk) 03:05, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Melford, could it be in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography which I can't access? It is shown as the main reference for John Drummond, 1st Earl of Melfort. Emerald (talk) 03:09, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It could be in the ODNB, but the claim was added in this edit, together with the genuki citation. I'll try to get into the ODNB. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:25, 25 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: From John Drummond, 1st Earl of Melfort "He was created Viscount of Melfort and Lord Drummond of Gillestoun in 1685, and a member of the Privy Council of England in the same year, and Earl of Melfort, Viscount of Forth and Lord Drummond of Riccartoun, Castlemains and Gilstoun in 1686, all titles in the Peerage of Scotland. In 1687, he was appointed one of the founder Knights of the Order of the Thistle. He was further created Baron Cleworth in the Peerage of England on 7 August 1689."

and from [2] "also the remains of an ancient house, built in 1599, in which Lord Castlemain, ambassador from James II. to the pope, is said to have been concealed for some time after the Revolution by a family named Price, to whom he fled for an asylum. "

Doesn't this tie things together? " John Drummond, James II's Secretary of State in Scotland and a Roman Catholic, is said to have been hidden in the house when he fled to Llanfyllin for asylum after the Glorious Revolution of 1688" should probably be something like "John Drummond, James II's Secretary of State in Scotland (and, among his numerous titles, Lord Castlemain) and a Roman Catholic, is said to have been hidden in the house when he fled to Llanfyllin for asylum after the Glorious Revolution of 1688" Emerald (talk) 22:49, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well spotted in the reference! Drummond's Wikipedia article has Castlemains, not Castlemain. It would be good to check this, it may be in the DNB article. Roger Palmer who also lived in the house was 1st Earl of Castlemaine, which is confusing but may be a coincidence. It seems odd to refer to Drummond as a mere lord when he became Earl of Melfort in 1686. I think an earl outranks a lord. His Wikipedia article is John Drummond, 1st Earl of Melfort. I suggest "John Drummond, Earl of Melfort (Lord Castlemains), James II's Secretary of State in Scotland and a Roman Catholic, is said to have been hidden in the house when he fled to Llanfyllin for asylum after the Glorious Revolution of 1688.", and try to check Castlemain / Castlemaine / Castlemains. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:12, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: I think I have it, John Drummond is a total red herring and I don't think he has a connection to Llanfyllin, not at least regarding the refuge/asylum story.

Ref 18 (ref name=RC1911) gives us "lived here... as did Roger Palmer, Earl of Castlemaine".
Roger Palmer, 1st Earl of Castlemaine gives us "[Roger Palmer] became a member of the English Privy Council in 1686, following James II's accession to the throne. He was appointed Ambassador to the Vatican,.."
Ref 2 (ref name=NatGaz) gives us "also the remains of an ancient house, built in 1599, in which Lord Castlemain, ambassador from James II. to the pope, is said to have been concealed for some time after the Revolution by a family named Price, to whom he fled for an asylum. "

Ref 18 ties in with Roger Palmer, 1st Earl of Castlemaine - Earl of Castlemaine

Roger Palmer, 1st Earl of Castlemaine ties in with Ref 2 - ambassador to the Vatican/Pope.

Roger Palmer might have lived there, but he took refuge there when he came under suspicion at the time of the Titus Oates affair, which is the important point. I don't actually think he did live there, he was English, sat in the Commons, etc., why would he live in Llanfyllin? It was Thomas Price's house and he was running it as a secret RC centre (it has a chapel and I think I read he had quite a collection of religious manuscripts etc.)

We need to remove all mention of John Drummond and rephrase the story around Roger Palmer. Emerald (talk) 00:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well done! The Roger Palmer article says he died in Oswestry and was buried in the Herbert family vault in Welshpool. His grandfather was William Herbert, 1st Baron Powis, so Roger Palmer had local links and might have lived in Llanfyllin. But if he lived in The Hall he would not have hidden there, it would be the first place his pursuers would have looked! I think we should say that Palmer hid in the house, we should not say that Palmer owned the house and we should not mention Drummond. If you agree then go ahead and make this change. We should add this incident to Roger Palmer and remove it from John Drummond, with a notes on the Talk pages. It's suspicious that both Palmer and Drummond are claimed to be ambassadors to the Vatican; we should try to check this. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:48, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The DWB Biography of Thomas Price (already cited) says

It is said that the Prices, who resided in a black-and-white house at Llanfyllin, built in 1599, and called ‘The Hall,’ were Roman Catholics.

This suggests that the Price family were long-term owners of the house, so it's very unlikely that Roger Palmer owned the house, but he could have lived in it. Maybe he just lived then when in hiding. Thomas Price merits an article. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:00, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Verbcatcher: All done. I have put a note on John Drummond's talk page, but not on Roger Palmer because it is just additional detail. I agree re Thomas Price, I have read a lot more about him than the quote from DWB, I think his collection of books etc. ended up in France or Spain. I have added it to my todo list, but I am going to be busy for a while so I won't have time to do it soon - let me know if you take it on, and then I'll help when I can. Emerald (talk) 11:46, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Plas Uchaf transation

The translation of "Plas Uchaf" as "The Hall" or "The Mansion" looks wrong. While I don't speak Welsh I understand some. In Welsh placenames "Uchaf" is usually translated as "Upper" or "Higher", as in Corris Uchaf, Llyn Nantlle Uchaf, and indeed Plas Uchaf near Corwen. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understood it to literally mean "upper house" or "great house", which I interpreted as Hall or Mansion. I see the translation on Plas Uchaf is Upper Hall, which I can perfectly accept, so I'll change it to that. Emerald (talk) 18:00, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It may have been called Plas Uchaf to distinguish it from the old Town Hall (built 1789, demolished 1960) which was near the war memorial, and downhill from The Hall. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:06, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On the main route between Shrewsbury and Bala?

We claim (twice) that the town is on the main route between Shrewsbury and Bala. Is it? I drove that way a few years ago and the B4391 did't feel like a main route. Neither Google Maps nor Bing Maps recommend this route from Shrewsbury to Bala. I think we should remove this claim. Can we find a citation for "the traditional route"? Was it a drovers' road? Verbcatcher (talk) 19:13, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think A5 is the normal route from Shrewsbury to Bala, but Welshpool to Bala it almost a straight line through Llanfyllin (B4391 and A490). Emerald (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done (see [3]) Verbcatcher (talk) 21:40, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Great, fits in well with what was there about the A490 Emerald (talk) 22:23, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Price

To editor Emerald-wiki: The cited DWB Biography of Thomas Price is not firm in its connection between this him and The Hall ("probably"), or that the Prices of The Hall were Roman Catholics ("it is said"). Do you have other citable sources that are more certain? Verbcatcher (talk) 16:19, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Verbcatcher He is mentioned here A on page 562 in connection with The Hall in 1761 and as a commissioner to raise land tax for George III. Here B as a subscriber to "Thoughts Moral and Divine" also in 1761. Here C on page 289, which is where I got Charles I sleeping and dining, but this talks about Castlemain residing in retirement with Price and family, it also mentions Price's collection of manuscripts going to the Vatican library, it says the Prices were called "Prices, the Papists". There is D page 96 where the DWB got the stuff about Roger Palmer living at The Hall. He is briefly mentioned here E re the fate of the Welsh language, it might be a lead. Finally F re cult of St Melangell. Emerald (talk) 16:58, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have also found G and H which both refer to him as a catholic and dying in 1704. Also a possible lead at I. Emerald (talk) 17:05, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

For curiosity value J photos of exterior and interior of The Hall. Emerald (talk) 17:51, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Curiously, for me, this K page 96 ties Thomas Price (fl 1586 - 1632) (who is L) to The Hall. I have read about him re a house in Pentrefoelas, which I am more directly associated with than Llanfyllin. Emerald (talk) 18:16, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Emerald-wiki: Some of these sources are very old, and might be classed as Primary Sources. Also, the author of the DWB article probably had access to some of these sources but clearly wasn't certain of some facts.

A (1762) says that someone called Thomas Price lived at The Hall Llanfyllin (in 1762). This is not the Thomas Price who died in 1704.

B (1761) Only says that a Thomas Price lived in Llanfyllin when the book was published. Not the one who died in 1704.

C was published in 1832 as an augmented translation of Caradoc of Llancarfan (12th century). Probably not a first-rate source.

D (1911) gives the Roger Palmer story and mentions an earlier Thomas Price. This may be Tomos Prys; the dates are right and he was a captain. This is uncertain, but I think we can say he "is said to have lived here". It does not mention the Thomas Price who died in 1704. This is a good source.

E (1962) Saunders Lewis's Tynged yr Iaith lecture is of great significance in modern Welsh history, and this name check is proof of Thomas Price's notability. Unfortunately your link is to a personal blog. This is the source to cite, with a link to the translation. Lewis is clearly referring to the same man, but doesn't say much about him.

F, G and H are good modern sources, but don't say that Price lived at The Hall. I is not citable.

J is interesting. Unfortunately it is unlikely to stay up for long, otherwise we could put it in External Links.

K is the same as ref D.

As far as I can see, of these only ref A mentions The Hall, and says that a Thomas Price lived there in 1762. It seems clear that a Price family lived in The Hall, and that they were probably Roman Catholic. It's a reasonable guess that the Thomas Price who died in 1704 lived there, but we cannot put it stronger than "probably", based on the DWB.

I suggest we use ref D (Royal Commission 1911) as the source for Charles I, Palmer and Captain Prys (if we mention him). I would use the DWB for Thomas Price and refer to the name-check in Tynged yr Iaith in the main text.

I suggest a new section on "People associated with Llanfyllin", with subsections on Tomos Prys, Thomas Price and Roger Palmer. Are you ok with this? This would separate these men from The Hall, where the connection is not 100%. I would leave the Charles I reference at The Hall, because he must have stayed in lots of places.

I have just remembered the Pevsner Architectural Guide on Powys. I have the 1979 edition (there is also a 2013). This does not mention these people, but it has lots of material on the buildings. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:26, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your suggestions make sense. In the "People" section mention will obviously be made to a building, if it is known. This suggestion opens up a new focus of research - finding notables associated with Llanfyllin. I am glad you feel Tomos Prys is worth a mention, he is an interesting character, and linked to two places I am interested in (Pentrefoelas and Ysbyty Ifan). I will be otherwise engaged for the next week or so, need to earn a crust or two, but will look forward to seeing the progress made and contributing further when I return. Emerald (talk) 09:40, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done. There is no mention of Llanfyllin in the ODNB articles on Roger Palmer or John Drummond. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:45, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Town or village

@RailwayJG: you recently changed the description of Llanfyllin from 'a market town' to 'a large village'. What was your reasoning? Llanfyllin was granted a charter as a market town in 1293, and it has a town council.[4] These are both mentioned as criteria in Town#England and Wales. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:15, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

David Davies, the Dartmoor Shepherd

David Davies, the Dartmoor Shepherd, spent his last days in the Llanfyllin Workhouse, dying on the roadside after his last escape. He is buried in Llanfyllin churchyard. A photo of his grave might enhance this article. DuncanHill (talk) 16:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

During the Napoleonic Wars, French prisoners of war were billetted under parole in the town Council House. This is now a pharmacy, and contains 13 murals painted by one of the prisoners, Captain Augeraud.

Blue plaque erected by the Llanfyllin & District Civic Society 2A02:C7C:B056:8200:F9FC:9BFD:C41C:630E (talk) 14:07, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]