Talk:Liya Akhedzhakova

BLP problem

This edit. First of all, this text is POV to imply some kind of guilt on her part. Second, this is poorly sourced to a blog (Live Journal) and other questionable sources. For example, I do not see how this video supports the statement. If you insist, I will post it on WP:BLPNB. My very best wishes (talk) 13:24, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

• a) The text doesn't imply any guilt, it quotes Akhedzhakova and her opponents;
• b) For the 10th time: which Wikipedia rule forbids linking to personal blogs?
• c) The video link contains archive footage with Akhedzhakova's speech, I even marked it that;
• d) Again, according to which Wikipedia rule memoirs, documentaries and interviews are "questionable sources"?
• e) Your edits change the meaning of her speech (it is not about Yeltsin at all), the importance of her speech (she is not criticized for supporting Yeltsin, but for calling out for army and people on the night before the conflict) and label people in an unneutral way (Furman, Rutskoy, Saprikin, Kashin, Govorukhin are not nationalists, or at least they are not known for that, Prokhanov is also known as a writer and main editor of the leading Communist newspaper, first and foremost). AveTory (talk) 14:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I explained you everything here. But basically, you must use reliable secondary sources, with pages, so that other users can verify that sources support the statement. Please see WP:RS. So far, I was not able to verify some of the sources, and others are clearly poor/unreliable sources per policy. This is just one of problems with your edit. My very best wishes (talk) 14:56, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I already made changes based on that discussion. Now you require "neutral" and "reliable" sources to CRITICS/OPINIONS by Akhedzhakova's opponents whom you personally approve, that don't link to personal blogs (while still failing to give a reason for it), whose words are varified by secondary sources which you can personally varify. And then give me warnings and vandalise the text (even the clearly sourced quotes), despite that even the sources by Saprykin and Kashin you left in a harsh state that she is criticized for a different reason and that it's not just Prokhanov and Rutskoy who criticize her, but her opponents in general. Please see WP:RS (c) AveTory (talk) 21:28, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Let's speak informally. This whole thing ("criticism" of her) is ridiculous. The person who ordered the military action was Yeltsin. Any well sourced criticism of Yeltsin would be fine, assuming this is not criticism by Prokhanov or Rutskoy (who organized the coup himself), but criticism by reputable historians sourced to books. But "criticizing" an actress who had nothing to do with this except speaking in support of Yeltsin is nonsense. My very best wishes (talk) 22:35, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

A lot of people gave support to Yeltsin, including her current political opponents. This is completely irrelevant as I said before. Those quoted words of hers along with the background is what she is known for; various people have been quoting her for the past 25 years. This is what relevant, not logic or sense. I provided at least three independent books in support (including two by political historians, see Moscow. Autumn-93. Chroincles of the Confrontation and Spiral Motion: The Russian Political System alongside Other Political Systems), along with several opinions by public figures (I didn't even go for lesser known publicists/journalists). AveTory (talk) 23:51, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Speaking more formally, you created a WP:SYN by quoting various primary sources ("she said", "they said"). Which secondary RS describes the entire controversy? If this is a book, please provide pages, so that anyone can check. My very best wishes (talk) 23:40, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Practically all sources (5-10). Furman: "On Ocotber 4 all world channels showed a picture of tanks shooting White House. From 123 to 2000 people died in street fights... democracts, Yeltsin's supporters... sieged the Wight House on tanks. But unlike reactioners-GKChPsts they had less fear at spilling blood... leading members of intelligensia welcomed the coup. A group of writers... addressed people and president: "Those dumb bastards understand only force. Maybe it's time to demonstarte it?"... actress L. Akhedzhakova even cried on TV "Where's our army?".

Oleg Kashin: "The second turning point that to some extent started Putin was October 1993 and the dictatorial Constitution that descended upon Russia along with tank shells. When today Lia Akhedzhakova climbs the platform at Bolotnaya, the first reaction of almost everyone who sees her - oh, that is the very same Lia who asked Yeltsin to use force on that October night 20 years ago", etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AveTory (talk • contribs) 00:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

One can find any number of more or less ridiculous political comments about any well known person. Should we put all such comments into their BLP pages to demonize them? My very best wishes (talk) 03:56, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

No more demonizing than "I'm guilty because I'm Russian" reading, only far more famous, at least in Russia. Many celebrities have political sections on their pages with various quotes and reactions to them, why is it suddenly a problem? Especially since she is politically active. AveTory (talk) 11:32, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Since no one came so far from BLPNB, I would be fine with such compromise version [1]. If you agree with such version, I would withdraw my BLPNB notice because I think the problem would be actually resolved. This version is still wrong version, but not an outright BLP violation. My very best wishes (talk) 15:40, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Ok, looks fine to me. AveTory (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

OK, I already removed the notice. Sorry for over-reaction on my part. Happy editing! My very best wishes (talk) 21:57, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, and I'm sorry too for my behaviour. AveTory (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

P.S. While I think her support of Yeltsin (during his first years in the office) can be included, the phrase "She was criticized for her speech by Alexander Prokhanov, Alexander Rutskoy, Stanislav Govorukhin and some others" should be excluded. Who cares if she was criticized by these extreme nationalists? My very best wishes (talk) 18:26, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Already discussed. The sentence was suggested by you, my version simply stated "political opponents". Everything else is your personal evaluation. I don't consider those people to be "extreme nationalists". AveTory (talk) 18:54, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

No, the views by these people on this subject (whatever you call them) are fringe, to tell this politely. I would never include myself things like that to BLPs. I removed this stuff to make clear that I do not endorse it. My very best wishes (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

No, we do not advertise non-notable personal opinions of extreme nationalists (such as these people) about other living people, who are not even politicians. We noted that they disagree with the actress, and noted who one of them was (as a matter of fact). That's enough. My very best wishes (talk) 02:18, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Consensus. I'm not wasting my time on you every time you suddenly decide to change your "opinion" on the subject. And since you've been constantly involved in WP:VD, WP:EW, WP:HOUNDING, lacking WP:NPOV and pushing your political bias to every article, I don't think you belong to Wikipedia at all and I'm not getting involved in further discussions with you. AveTory (talk) 10:06, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Not to be involved in discussions with me is fine. But then you should not revert my edits because resolving disagreements requires discussion. Do you agree? My very best wishes (talk) 19:19, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes I should, because a) We already reached a consensus 2 years ago following a long argument during which you revealed that you had deleted most of my sources without reading them first, and finally agreed on YOUR version of the article, and b) Because you are a vandal who doesn't know about WP:NPOV as you keep proving, and we at Wikipedia don't tolerate your kind. Agree? AveTory (talk) 20:53, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Look, I agree that views of the subject of the page should be described if they are important and can be reliably sourced. We do that. However, the "criticisms" and all that nonsense about "intelligencia" by guys like Rurskoy and Prokhanov do not belong here. For example, consider someone posting views of white supremacists on page Rashida Tlaib. We do not do it. Placing her own sourced views is enough. Same is here. My very best wishes (talk) 03:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Rutskoy - Russia's Vice President and the leader of anti-Yeltsin opposition, Prohkanov - main editor of the leading opposition newspaper, Govorukhin - State Duma deputy, an acclaimed director, Dmitri Furman - "Russia’s leading comparative scholar on the political systems of post-Soviet states", Yuri Saprykin and Oleg Kashin - some of the leading modern journalists. Criticism belongs to every person's page as long as it is supported by sources. Your attempts to whitewash those you like (while covering those you don't like in dirt) violate WP:NPOV. And your reverts of your own consensus version is what we do not do in Wikipedia. AveTory (talk) 11:17, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Of course the events of 1993 were bad. People were killed. Some blame Rutskoy. Others blame Yeltsin. Both opinions are notable and perhaps deserve inclusion somewhere. However, these guys blame not Yelsin or Rutskoy, but an actress who had nothing to do with this except publicly expressing her opinion. That's ridiculous.My very best wishes (talk) 04:52, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Sourcing

You made this edit. Now, let me ask you: how exactly this source: supports the statement ("She was criticized for her speech by Alexander Prokhanov, Alexander Rutskoy, Stanislav Govorukhin and others who blamed intelligentsia for escalating the conflict")? Please quote the source. My very best wishes (talk) 03:08, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

I do realize that you probably mean this:

— Вам ведь до сих пор при­поминают эфир в ночь на 4 октября 1993 года, когда вы говорили — мол, где же армия, которая защитит нас от этой конституции.

— Я так сказала? Я сейчас уже подзабыла, но я помню, что это был страшный момент, судьбоносный. Помню, как выступили ребята из «Взгляда»: идите спать, сидите дома, не участвуйте. А я сказала: «Люди, не спите, все вернется». Тогда не нужно было думать и взвешивать: а вдруг? а что потом? а если? И только потом оказалось, что каким-то образом мы это дело — слово нехорошее — просрали.

Yes, it mentioned the speech. But where it supports the statement about blaming intelligentsia? And where other sources support this claim? My very best wishes (talk) 16:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

P.S. I fixed it now and satisfied with the current version. I still may change my opinion and fix this later, for example if I read more on the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 19:44, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

References