Talk:Liturgical music

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The page on Gregorian chant says there is little relation between Christian and Hebrew liturgical music. Can anyone reconcile this?

There are no references.

Can someone add them?

The article appears to be based on an article in the Catholic Encyclopedia (1913), though the notice is misplaced and it would be better if there were more sources and inline citations.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:28, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

The entire Wikipedia page is mistitled; it is not about "Liturgical Music", it is about "Roman Catholic Liturgical Music." There are many other types of liturgical music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6000:AB05:F613:7D8C:50C7:D00F:B371 (talk) 03:37, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed; so let's add some other sections! I've added a start with a section on Anglican church music, mostly a SUMMARY of some key parts of Anglican church music. Klbrain (talk) 09:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Merge with Church music

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The discussion started a year and a half ago. For a discussion that old the participation has been quite sparse. The result is that there's no consensus to Merge the two articles, a Merge evidently being a significant action in Wikipedia. An editor who tentatively supports Merging also asked, perhaps rhetorically, if a Merge is needed at all. -The Gnome (talk) 08:55, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

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"Liturgical music" and "Church music" seems to be the same concept, and none of the two voices shows what the differences between the two denominations may be. On Encyclopædia Britannica there is only one item, "Liturgical music, also called church music". I therefore suggest that Church music be merged here. --BohemianRhapsody (talk) 07:49, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

• The church music article is about ten months older, and has consistently more than double the page views except for a few spikes over the past two years. Church music also has many more inbound links. It's likely a difference between common Amercian English usage and technical usage. The Canadian Encylopedia does not have an individual entry for either but has several denominational or sectarian "church music" articles such as http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/protestant-church-music-emc/ . Church music seems the right place. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:04, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
• I strongly disagree that Church music and Liturgical Music be merged, as they are not identical. "Liturgical Music" is a subset of "Church Music". In other words, all Liturgical Music is Church Music, but not all Church Music is Liturgical Music. I suggest that each article reference the other in a "see also" note, or at the very least, continue to include the Liturgical Music article and refer readers to a section of Church Music called "Liturgical Music". In practical usage, at least in the US, "Church Music" refers to anything used in any Christian church, in a service or not; while "Liturgical Music" would imply something definitely intended to be used in a service of worship, and perhaps even required. "Liturgical Music" means music composed to texts for traditional Christian liturgies, i.e., musical settings of texts (often required texts) for rites in more liturgical churches, e.g., Roman Catholic, Episcopal, Orthodox, Lutheran, while "Church Music" would mean those and also a lot of music which is not by any means part of an historical liturgy, such as music used for Baptist, Quaker, Pentecostal, non-denominational, and other non-liturgical churches, which do not have a set or required form of worship. "Church Music" can even be used to mean music composed for events not even a service of worship, such as religious education classes, concerts, or even music with secular texts used to teach music reading. While it is true that these non-liturgical church usually develop a plan for their worship services (usually called "worship", not "service") which can be considered as a liturgy, they are rarely (if ever) designed like the traditional liturgies required by most of the liturgical churches mentioned above, and people attending their "worship" would object to the term liturgy if it was ever used. "Liturgical Music" would always mean something composed for the traditional liturgies, even if the music is performed in other settings. There are more hits on "Liturgical Music" because people searching "Liturgical Music" are more likely to be seeking scholarly knowledge, and want to avoid an overwhelming amount of music and information which will be useless to them if they search "Church Music"VirginiaSMoe (talk) 15:26, 22 July 2017 (UTC).

Closing, given the uncontested opposition and discussion stale for more than a year. Klbrain (talk) 14:49, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

@Klbrain: I supported the merger and VirginiaSMoe (talk · contribs) does not make a compelling argument. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I'll reopen it, given your speedy request. Klbrain (talk) 15:09, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I'm still on the fence. I think we need to notify some projects to see if there's an actual direction. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:11, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I think I stayed out of this discussion the first time around, but I am wading in now. I agree that VirginiaSMoe (talk · contribs) "does not make a compelling argument". In fact, a quick examination of the article Liturgy indicates that this argument is completely inside-out. In what sense can music associated with Buddhist or Jewish liturgy be called "church music"? Are these faiths (as VirginiaSMoe seems to be arguing) subsets of Christianity? I hardly think so. It seems more logical to merge "Church music" to "Liturgical music", since it would appear that the former is a subset of the latter, and not the other way around.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:07, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

• I'd merge Liturgical music into Church music, as the latter is broader, and a more commonly used term. Brahms Requiem is not liturgical, but still Church music (also called Sacred music), as it is based only on biblical texts. Same for Der 100. Psalm and others. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:29, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Do we need a merger at all? Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:36, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

As I said above, I do not think the articles on "Liturgical music" and "Church Music" should be merged, nor do I think that "Worship Music" is identical to either and therefore should not be merged with either. To answer Jerome Kern, I was in fact thinking only of Christian Music, and while you are right about there being other liturgies, the Wikipedia article on "Church" lists Christian churches (pretty much - also lists Unitarians-Universalists, not exactly the same) and the article lists no major non-Christian religions like Buddhism, etc. This is another argument for NOT merging the articles. A disambiguation page briefly describing the differences and directing readers to the various articles would be much more helpful. And by the way, guys, "Virginia S Moe does not make a compelling argument" does not cast light on the subject, but does sort of insult me. We want your opinions of the subject, so let's keep to the topic, shall we? — Preceding unsigned comment added by VirginiaSMoe (talk • contribs) 17:14, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Worship music

This currently redirects to Contemporary worship music, which is incorrect as there has been music that could be described as "worship music" for hundreds of years. I wanted to get a discussion started and this was one place where I could probably get some opinions. It seems there should be some kind of disambiguation but I don't know what "traditional worship music" would be called on Wikipedia.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:37, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

How is it incorrect? The term is used to mean contemporary worship music now more often than it is to mean liturgical music. A hathote could be placed there to remind people that at one time, liturgical music would have been the primary topic, but no other disambiguation is needed at this point. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:07, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Also, until the merge discussion above is resolved, we don't know which article, this one or church music, is the final destination of that hatnote. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:08, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I didn't intend to end up on the liturgical music talk page.

Just because it is used "more often" doesn't mean it is the only definition.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:09, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

I think what you want to read first, or at least before continuing, is MOS:DAB. My argument is that there is a clear primary topic. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:27, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

And my argument is that there was a different kind of "worship music" for hundreds of years. I just don't know how to identify what it was. I will not back down on this.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:33, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

OK. Don't. If you can make arguments from MOS:DAB, I'll be glad to discuss them, otherwise, Wikipedia won't back down either. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:08, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know of any arguments I can make because I don't know how to do the research. I was distressed to learn most of the sources that were recommended were about contemporary music. I am going to a college library this week that might have something, though it's not a religious school. But I won't have time. All I know is in the section above it is stated that in some churches the music is not liturgical, but worship music. Whether the actual term is used or not, that's what it is. I looked in my church's hymnal this morning and there is an "order of worship" as opposed to a liturgy. And it is a suggested "pattern", not a requirement. And the churches that do this, I'm sure, were doing it long before "contemporary worship" became a reality. I have actually tried to improve Wikipedia's coverage of contemporary worship even though I want nothing to do with it on Sunday morning. But I haven't found much on its origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vchimpanzee (talk • contribs) 17:03, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

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Non-Christian liturgical music

I noticed this page seems almost solely dedicated to Christian Liturgical music. Is it the decision that this article is solely Christian? SiliconProphet (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

@SiliconProphet: As the big tag at the top notes, it does even that quite poorly. This should obviously be expanded to cover music within other religions, if/when someone has the time to dig out acceptable sources. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:55, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree; it's unfortunate. It's a poor-quality article that implicitly claims to be about liturgical music as a whole but only substantively discusses Christian and/or Catholic music. As noted, it's not a very thorough discussion of those, either. I don't understand why this article has not been renamed or merged with Church Music; I see that there was significant discussion of doing so, but this was shot down. Why? Can the discussion not be reopened? This article doesn't discuss "liturgical music"; it discusses Catholic liturgical music, and poorly. newmila (talk) 16:25, 9 December 2021 (UTC)