Talk:Lists of feature films with LGBT characters/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Title change to specify type of films

Just as List of made-for-television films with LGBT characters identifies the article as being specifically about TV movies, I think this article would benefit by the addition of "feature" to its title -- as in "List of feature films with LGBT characters". It would certainly differentiate it in a search for theatrically released films that include lgbt characters (which is not exactly the same as List of LGBT-related films and List of LGBT-related films by year. Pyxis Solitary yak 08:23, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

@User:Pyxis Solitary, I wouldn't oppose (and would support) that change. It could prevent confusion. --Historyday01 (talk) 20:22, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I agree with you that it could prevent confusion. I shall move the page. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 05:13, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Asexuality

Hi,

User:Pyxis Solitary made an edit noting this page does not include heterosexual asexuals. I don't think this should be added because the LGBT+ community does not stipulate this and this comes across as quite arbitrary. Some people note asexual as their orientation alone. So I think it would be hard to categorise this.

Anybody have any comments?

Cheers

AussieWikiDan ^(talk) 05:36, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, I don't think it is needed either and yeah, it would be hard, if not impossible, to categorize this. Historyday01 (talk) 15:40, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Asexuality is not limited to LGBT. And if someone adds an asexual character to the list that isn't LGBT related, the character will remain in the list until someone familiar with the film removes it, and until such time the inclusion of the character in the list will be misleading.
Editors are adding asexual characters to these types of lists because they think the "queer" spectrum should be included, but "queer" has increasingly become a fluid term used by some straights to describe themselves, too.
So: how are you going to handle asexual straight characters? Because inexperienced editors, or those that don't care about the nuts and bolts, will add a character just because it is asexual. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 02:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

I mean, I think that asexual characters should be added if they have sources, that would be what I would say. Sure, some straight people have used the word "queer," but we shouldn't have characters deemed "queer" on this list. I would say that if a character is specifically said to be "asexual straight," then that should be noted, but I can't think of any characters off hand which fulfill that.Historyday01 (talk) 02:48, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

No straight asexual character, regardless of how it is described in the dialog or narration, should be included in this list. Period. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 03:16, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Ok, but I've never seen any producer ever say that a character is a "straight asexual character" from what I've been able to tell. Maybe I've missed that, but I struggled a lot to get what I could on the List of fictional asexual characters page and I never remember any of them saying that the character was "straight asexual." Historyday01 (talk) 04:00, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

What you have seen or heard is irrelevant. Your POV about asexuality is irrelevant. Your personal knowledge about anything is irrelevant. Wikipedia exists for the general public and it is written for the benefit of the general public. The inclusion of misleading information in any article and list is contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia. The existence of asexuality is not exclusive to the LGBT community and precautions should be taken to ensure that a list about LGBT characters is only about LGBT characters. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 06:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding what LGBT+ stands for and it does include heterosexual people. Transgender and intersex people can be straight. Asexuality is also not always defined by being gay, bi or straight but as the Oxford Dictionary defines it: 'A person who has no sexual feelings or desires, or who is not sexually attracted to anyone'. So I feel that your argument doesn't merit removal of characters that are asexual but also consider themselves heterosexual.

Maybe we could add a disclaimer to be clearer?

AussieWikiDan ^(talk) 10:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd be fine with adding a disclaimer.Historyday01 (talk) 14:06, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

L = Lesbian
G = Gay men
B = Bisexual
T = Transgender.
That's what LGBT stands for. LGBT characters is the title of the list.
This isn't a "+" list and the "+" could be anything and everything. Room was stretched for inclusion of asexual and non-binary, etc., because they're starting to appear as characters in the mix, but the reason for the existence of the list is LGBT. Transgender could be straight, true, because Transgender is not a sexual orientation. But since it's no longer known as the Lesbian and Gay community, or the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual community, but re-titled as the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Community ... that's how it's recognized. And the recognition and inclusion of Transgender did not begin, nor exists, as an element of straight society. If you want to change LGBT to LGBTQ you're going to need to do an across-the-board RfC about it because until the purpose of the list is changed, it remains a list for LGBT characters. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 08:33, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I get what you are saying, but I would say that it does include asexual and non-binary characters at the present and shouldn't just be restricted to those that are just LGBT. That's my interpretation of it, at least. Again, I support a disclaimer when it comes to asexual characters. Historyday01 (talk) 13:43, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

It includes asexual and non-binary characters because they began to be added years after the list was created in 2005. Just because editors have been squeezing more than LGBT into it doesn't mean asexual and non-binary characters belong in it. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 19:18, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, Pyxis Solitary. Well, I would say they belong in an effort to be more inclusive. That seems to be the push, toward more inclusivity, from what I can tell. Anyway, I just checked and there are two entries for pansexual characters, two entries for asexual characters, two entries for genderqueer characters (the second one is genderqueer and bi), and one for a non-binary character, along with one who is "Lesbian/queer," one who is Two-Spirit, another who is Bisexual and a Transvestite. There's also one who is "(Ambiguous)" and one who is a "Transvestite." That's 12 entries by my count. The rest are all either bi, lesbian, gay, or trans characters. Since there are so few, I'd be willing to move those the pansexual, asexual, genderqueer, non-binary, and two-spirit ones to their appropriate pages, like the List of fictional non-binary characters, List of fictional asexual characters, and List of fictional pansexual characters, provided that the main page link to those pages, either in the first paragraph or in see also section. Maybe the Transvestite ones need to be moved and integrated into the Cross-dressing in film and television page? That's my compromise here, as there wouldn't have to be an RFC about changing the name of the page and the entries for each of those characters would be preserved. In any case, at some point, I need to go through the page as a whole and add/update some sources, I've just been bogged down with updating other pages. --Historyday01 (talk) 20:23, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

In this we agree: the List of fictional non-binary characters, List of fictional asexual characters, and List of fictional pansexual characters exist for the purpose of non-binary, asexual, and pansexual characters. These characters should be transferred from this LGBT list to the specialized list for non-binary, asexual, and pansexual characters. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 12:34, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

This is frustrating. I feel you are not listening to our side of the discussions and being quite bullish. I feel you are getting quite emotional about the origins of or identity of this community whereas this is just about the logical inclusion of a certain group. Maybe asexuals shouldn't be included in this list, that is another discussion. However, the fact is it is: very difficult to differentiate between asexual sexual orientations or none; and it would be unnecessary to restrict heterosexual asexuals when they are embraced by the LGBT+ community in general.

If we don't get anywhere beyond this I think we need to refer to an admin group to adjudicate.

AussieWikiDan ^(talk) 14:46, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I feel the same way as AussieWikiDan and agree with them. It wouldn't make sense to "restrict heterosexual asexuals."Historyday01 (talk) 15:31, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

"I feel you are getting quite emotional...." Sure, mister. Because that's what women do, right?
I feel that you don't understand how Wikipedia works. The key word is ............ consensus. What you need to do is seek consensus from a wide-range of editors that are familiar with the purpose of lists and, for LGBT subjects, with LGBT-related lists. It's obvious by the fact that only two of us have bothered to respond to your topic that you need to cast a wider net. That's where WT:MOSLIST and WT:WikiProject LGBT studies come in. Establishing heterosexual asexuals in an LGBT-related list is a domino that will drop on other LGBT-related lists. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 19:18, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Please do not cast me as being sexist. That is uncivil. You have a history of being difficult. I didn't even know you were a woman. Back on topic, there is no consensus to omit them across the board, are you able to point to an example? Why do you believe your edit to change this page originally should be the new default? Why do you not have to reach consensus? AussieWikiDan ^(talk) 07:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Not sure of their reasoning. For my part, I just wanted to preserve the entries and not get into an argument as they edit a number of other LGBT-related list pages.Historyday01 (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

"Not sure of their reasoning." Refer to me by pronouns she and her. I am not a "their" or "them". I am not queer. I am a lesbian -- a homosexual female. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 07:04, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

I tend to default to "their" by habit, which is why I did so, rather than using "he" or "her."Historyday01 (talk) 07:51, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Bad habit, imo. And offensive to many, many persons. But now you know that when you are referring to me, the old school way is the best way. Thanks. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 13:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps.Historyday01 (talk) 15:26, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps ... nada. If you want to engage with me in a Wikipedia talk page, using "they" or "them" again when it's about me will result in my ignoring you. If you are sensitive about non-binary and trans editors -- you need to also be sensitive about editors who identify with their biological sex and prefer "she", "her", "his", "him" when addressing their presence in a talk page. It's not complicated. We haven't all bought into woke-speak. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 05:17, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

"Why do you not have to reach consensus?" My argument has been to not change the purpose of the list by injecting characters that are not L-G-B-T without consensus reached by a majority of editors who are familiar with LGBT-related lists. If it wasn't understood before, I'll make it simpler: changing the purpose of this list -- an "LGBT" list -- has the potential to change the purpose of other LGBT-related lists. This list does not exist in a void. Too many editors have a bad habit of going along with the flow, even if the flow goes against the specific purpose of a subject. If this list is going to change its purpose, the end result down the road is that the purpose will also be changed in other similar Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-Transgender related lists without a single consensus discussion with which to proceed with the change. Either this and other LGBT-related lists are about L-G-B-T ... or they're not. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 07:13, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Don't just attack people recklessly. I see you didn't respond to my accusation of wrongfully calling me sexist. Anyway this conversation is redundant as the page has been changed to only include LGBT people. Which I support, thank you both for your efforts. Just to be clear, this was not about including or not including asexuals etc. It was about the exclusion of a a sub-group of asexuals.

AussieWikiDan ^(talk) 08:11, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Agreed.Historyday01 (talk) 15:26, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Cannot add films that have not yet been released to the list

The following rows were removed from the list because at this point in time the films have not yet been released:
| 2021 | The Eternals | Phastos | Gay | Brian Tyree Henry | Phastos is the first superhero to be depicted as gay in an MCU film.
| 2022 | Thor: Love and Thunder | Valkyrie | Bisexual | Tessa Thompson
Adding unreleased films to the list constitutes original research. The list is about what is, not about what will be. The rows can be re-added after the films are released.
Per Adding individual items to a list: "all individual items on the list must follow Wikipedia's content policies: the core content policies of Verifiability." Please remember that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball: "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation or presumptions." Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 09:40, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

In the same realm is an upcoming Pixar film which will, apparently, have a trans character named Jess. So, obviously, that can't be added yet either, since we don't even know the name of the film, yet. Historyday01 (talk) 12:44, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Your comment belongs in List of animated films with LGBT characters. Where if it needs to be said, should be said there. (And ... you should take me off your watchlist and stop following me around.) Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 10:42, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

That is a good point. Pyxis, I don't have you on a watchlist specifically, I have a bunch of pages on a watchlist, like this one, which you happen to post on. But I'll post something on the talk page of that article, just to start gathering information about it. Historyday01 (talk) 12:45, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Other upcoming films with LGBTQ characters

This is for when I find other films in development, so I can stick the sources here before adding them to the main page. I was editing some stuff about America Chavez and came across a Dec. 2020 Out mag article mentioning her appearing in an upcoming Marvel movie.

Year	Title	Character(s)	Identity	Actor	Notes	Country
2022	Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness	America Chavez	Lesbian	Xochitl Gomez	Chavez is a lesbian, and Latina, superhero, who has two mothers.	United States

References

Obviously, I'm not going to add this to the page, yet, but I thought I'd at least mention it here. Historyday01 (talk) 04:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Film removed from table

The following film has been removed because the wiki-linked Caligula article does not include mention of the film, and the "Fagio" character does not appear on the cast/characters list in the IMDb page for the film:
| 1982 | ''[[Caligula#In film|The Emperor Caligula: The Untold Story]]'' | Fagio | Gay | | {{Citation needed|reason=Per WP:VERIFY – Verify sexual orientation of all characters.|date=July 2019}} | Italy
Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 11:42, 22 June 2021 (UTC)