Talk:List of unrelegated association football clubs

Proposals

From Romania - Steaua.

From Moldova - Zimbru (if we consider only Moldovan period, excluding USSR era) XXN (talk) 01:07, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Question about dissolved countries

How are we dealing in this list about countries (leagues) that were dissolved? For instance, there was a Yugoslav First League, and nowadays the country which once was Yugoslavia is now divided into 6 new countries (alphabetically Bosnia, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Slovenia). FIFA and UEFA consider Serbia the legal and only successor of the Yugoslav national team and the Yugoslav top league, so basically consider the Yugoslav First League, First League of Serbia and Montenegro and Serbian SuperLiga all in line and continuity. However other countries separated and created their own top leagues. So... how are we dealing with those new countries? For instance, there are clubs in the Montenegrin First League that were never relegated since the creation of that league in 2006 as a national top league of Montenegro, however many of those clubs didn´t even played in prevous top leagues Montenegro was included in, or played rarely... And that is the case of many new countries/leagues. See my point? Are we counting the unrelegated clubs by league or by their history and all leagues they played in? FkpCascais (talk) 19:01, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, my main focus with this list was to include clubs from current leagues and then gradually work through to clubs in situations like the ones you mention. I don't really like the idea of excluding former leagues like the Yugoslav First, which was around for nearly 70 years. However, I think the inital focus should be on clubs in current leagues, however small, as long as they are recognised members of confederations like UEFA. After that, I think it would need some discussions about the dissolved leagues. Green Giant (talk) 00:19, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

There are some mistakes in the list. In Spain, Getafe CF has not been relegated yet (they were promoted to the First Division ten years ago and have never been relegated), I'll add it to the list.

In France, Sochaux has been relegated (see [[1]]), same as St. Étienne ([[2]]), Girondins ([[3]]) and O. Marseille ([[4]]); I'll take them off the list. Paris SG has arguably not been relegated, depending on the point of view: after the 1971-72 season "Paris Saint-Germain maintained the category after finishing 16th in the league. However, the season was marked by the split between the Parisians and the Sangermanois in May 1972. Paris FC merged with CA Montreuil and remained in the first division, while PSG assumed amateur status and continued life in the third division." ([[5]]). I'll leave that one the way it is, but if someone considers it's been relegated that's also fine with me.L'irlandés (talk) 10:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Re: Getafe. See Getafe CF#Season to season. They've never been relegated from the Spanish First Division.--L'irlandés (talk) 21:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed but I would still rather have a reliable source rather than relying on other Wikipedia articles. I only removed it because the IP that added it did not give an edit summary or a source. Green Giant (talk) 19:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That was probably me editing while not logged in, sorry about that. I can't think of any references except referencing every single Getafe season in the First Division, but I thought that would not be helpful (and they would probably be references in Spanish anyway). But if you want me to go ahead I can do that.--L'irlandés (talk) 09:48, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

But wait a sec. I thought this would be a list of clubs which allways played in a top league. Otherwise, basically each club which got promoted for the first time to some top-league and didn´t get relegated would be included. FkpCascais (talk) 10:19, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

This is what it says in the article: "This is a list of unrelegated association football clubs i.e. clubs that have never been relegated from their national premier league." That qualifies every club promoted to the top flight in their country until they are relegated for the first time (strictly speaking, even clubs which have never been in the top flight could make this list, as they have never been relegated from the top!). What you thought it was is actually more interesting, and I think it should be changed to it, but then the article should be renamed to something like "List of association football clubs that have always played in the top flight"; way too long a name for an article?--L'irlandés (talk) 13:55, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, the Category:Unrelegated association football clubs was created with the intention of including literally only those clubs that have always played in the top flight but the title (similar to what L'irlandés's bold font statement) just seemed too long and cumbersome. I opted for the current title for both the article and the category hoping for suggestions for a good alternative title. There is the question of whether to limit it to just clubs that have always played in the top flight but then we are leaving out clubs that formed later and were promoted and stayed there. Getafe is a tough one because technically they were relgated from lower divisions but since they reached the top division, they have stayed up. Then there is the question of what to do about leagues that only formed comparatively recently (such as the Montenegrin one) and how to deal with examples like the English Premier League i.e. do we treat it as a continuation of the old First Division or as a completely new league. There are some clubs that have always played in the Premier League but I don't think there were any clubs that always played in the First Division (although I might be wrong on that). Green Giant (talk) 15:56, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

If you restrict the list to clubs that have only ever played in a top flight league and don't include clubs that have made it up through the ranks and not been relegated again yet you will, one day, most likely find this list empty. It would only be a very small group to start with right now that would qualify and be slowly depleted of clubs (to name just one, Rnagers, who recently dropped off this list). If you include the newly promoted first time clubs you will always have some content in it. Just my thoughts on it. Calistemon (talk) 17:30, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I just added a reference to Getafe's having never been relegated from the First Division, it's from the Liga de Fútbol Profesional (the body that organizes both the First and Second Division of Spanish football). What it says is: "Getafe plays for the 10th season in the First Division (all of them in a row)". So it has never been relegated from the top flight.--L'irlandés (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

So Getafe CF reached La Liga and has never been relegated. That makes sense. BenficaNNossaPaixao (talk) 19:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. So far the clubs in this list are not just the ones that have always played at the top flight, but also the ones that, having reached the top flight later, have never been relegated. If that is changed, then Getafe will be dropped from the list and only Ath. Bilbao, Barça and Madrid will remain (of the Spanish league sides).--L'irlandés (talk) 21:15, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion Getafe FC should not be in this list, and I'm going to explain why. When I have read the article at first glance, the presence of Getafe on this list have surprised me. What someone expect to see reading this article is a list of clubs that have been played always on top level leagues. Here it is not interesting to know that Getafe has not been "relegated from 1 division" since it was promoted, because every year there is a number of clubs around the world in the same situation (maybe only one year or two, but the same situation). This could lead to confusion. On the other side Getafe CF is not an "unrelegated football club" because has been relegated several times from 2 Division to 2ªB. Real Madrid, FC Barcelona, Athletic Club, HSV, Inter Milan are true unrelegated clubs, because never have been relegated. This article should consider only unrelegated clubs (of all categories) or be renamed, to be completely accurate, to "unrelegated from 1 division" (in this case I think that should be clear that not all these clubs have been played always in a top level league and make a distinction between them) --Willtron (?) 15:34, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

The article for Real Madrid states that they are one of only three teams never to have been relegated, along with Barcelona and Bilbao. One of these needs changing, but I'm not going to decide which! Matt Adore (talk) 03:17, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Although none of the listed English clubs have been relegated at the EPL (since 1993), they all have been at least once in the history of its predecessor, First Division, so I recommend a removal. Donnie Park (talk) 22:22, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Errors about the Netherlands

Ajax was relegated in 1913-14 and is in the first level since 1917-18. Feijenoord was relegated in 1918-19 and is in the first level since 1921-22. PSV was relegated in 1924-25 and is in the first level since 1926-27. NYCFC (talk) 00:17, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Source? SLBedit (talk) 11:11, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

RSSSF.NYCFC (talk) 17:38, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Ajax has never been relegated out of the current top league which is the Eredivisie founded in the fifties. Seems good to me. --Fürtierliebe (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Arouca has never been relegated.

Arouca has never been relegated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.245.58.1 (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

 Done SLBedit (talk) 18:43, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

England and meaning of the article

About the English Premier League, FIFA reference is clear: "No team can pride themselves on a permanent spot in England’s elite... More recently, the modern Premier League was founded on 20 February 1992, and of the 45 clubs to have taken part only Arsenal, Aston Villa, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool, Manchester United and Tottenham Hotspur have never finished in the bottom three."

With this, I think a clarification it's needed, inside the article's body about what we expect with this list. Clubs that never suffered a relegation since they have been promoted, even they have only 2 appearances (like Arouca, in Portugal)? Clubs that have played in all editions since the creation of the league top-tier (and the english clubs would be rulled out)? Or considering the last format/reform of football system (in english case, since 1992)?Rpo.castro (talk) 13:28, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Yet Littleboygenius continues to add English clubs without a source. SLBedit (talk) 23:16, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

SLBedit, you have removed the german and the english clubs that were added by me, even though I did provide a source and the clubs are conform to the current definition of this Wikipedia article. I'd suggest to amend the current definition or undo your previous amendment. Appreciate your feedback. Fürtierliebe (talk) 07:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Fürtierliebe is correct. Including these English and German teams does not violate the definition currently provided. Tridek Sep (talk) 13:13, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

The "Eibar problem" - a better definition

It would be much better if the definition used in this page was changed to something like "clubs that have played in the top league in a country and have never been relegated from any league". That would get rid of examples like Eibar in Spain who have been relegated from lower leagues on several occasions and are only on this list because they've only been in the top league in their country for one season. There isn't really any purpose in the article existing if it uses the current definition because it is no achievement, whatsoever, to never have been relegated from the top division if you're a team like Eibar - it's actually impossible for them to have been relegated from the top division at the time of writing because they've never been in it for a full season. We have to use a bit of common sense and think about why the article exists in the first place and what the spirit of it is. 158.143.83.6 (talk) 18:40, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Toward a more complete understanding of concepts: creating a more qualitative list

On 18 August 2015 I expanded this list with numerous clubs from countries that were not included before. These are mostly countries that are not mentioned on this page, which seemed to be the primary source for this article.

I also added a section titled Unrelegated clubs in history, to put things in a historical perspective. Feel free to change, this is Wikipedia. I already took the liberty to rearrange the list into columns, as it was before.

Of course, all the teams I added comply with the given criteria:

This is a list of association football clubs which have never been relegated from their current national top-level league and have played at least 10 seasons at this level.

This definition should be quite simple to understand, but apperently is not. I will take the opportunity to explain a number of misconceptions.

• Never relegated from the top flight is the same as have always played at the top flight – wrong. A large number of teams that have never been relegated from a top-level competition, debuted in that competition after its creation – meaning they were not a founder member of that league. Thus, they have not always been on top, but surely have never relegated from the top. Getafe in Spain can serve as an example. They have played in every season of La Liga since arriving there for the first time in 2004, but of course did not plat in every season of La Liga. Nevertheless, Getafe should be included on this list.

• Never relegated from the top flight is the same as never relegated – wrong. It is perfectly possible for a team to have been relegated (and promoted) at lower levels, before debuting in a top-level league. Again, Getafe in Spain can serve as an example. They relegated in 1996 from the second to the thirth level, and did so again in 2002. But they surely have not relegated since playing in La Liga. Therefore, Getafe should be included on this list.

• The national top-level league is the same as the highest possible league – wrong. Let me illustrate this by going to Tsarist Russia. Football competitions were first organised there in Saint Petersburg and Moscow. These city-level leagues were the highest levels in existence, but of course were not national leagues. Thus, even though Dynamo Moscow never relegated from the Moscow Football League Championship, and have never relegated from the top since, it is wrong to state that they have never relegated from the national top flight since 1909. Yet, this is exactly what some people do in the case of Austria Wien and Rapid Wien when they state that both clubs never relegated from the Austrian top-level since 1911. It was however not a national top-level league they played in at that time, rather a league limited to the region of Lower Austria.

• The current national top-level league is the same as the national top-level league – wrong. This one seems to be the most persistent. Therefore, let’s go to Russia again. In 1936, the Soviet Top League became the top-tier in that country. But after the fall of the Soviet Union, it was replaced by a new competition, just like in the fourteen other Soviet republics. One must understand that multiple countries have had different top-tier competitions organised on their territory in the course of history. The Soviet Union and Yugoslavia are examples of nations that fell apart, just like their football competitions did. But in countries like the Netherlands and Germany, the opposite happened, and multiple top-level leagues were unified into one.

With regard to the latest remark, one can always invent definitions with the purpose to consider successive competitions as continuations of each other. I do not recommend this because such criteria would always be arbitrary and lead to relentless debates on which criteria should be used. Moreover, this kind of information, although informative, does not belong in an encyclopedia. The most logical approach is to look at what each national football association regards as the starting point of its current national top-level league, and go from there. Tridek Sep (talk) 04:12, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

In England EVERY club is relegated !!! Before of the Premier League there has been a top tier division for over 100 years. The change of the name means zero.

In Austria there is a top tier division SINCE 1911 (not 1974 !!!) and it means zero that at the beginning there were only clubs of Wien. Also in Argentina ( Newell's Old Boys and Rosario Central were the first teams outer the Great Buenos Aires to partecipate at the Primera Division in 1939....), in Uruguay ( until 1999 only Montevideo clubs !!!), in Paraguay and in many other nations in the world at the beginning there were only the teams of the most important city (almost ever the capital), but these have ever been considered National championships.

In 1911 the Rapid Wien became champion of the Austria, not champion of the Wien !!!

Ajax was relegated in 1913-14 and is in the first level since 1917-18. Feijenoord was relegated in 1918-19 and is in the first level since 1921-22. PSV was relegated in 1924-25 and is in the first level since 1926-27. Utrecht is the only Dutch team never relegated.

P.S. I had added an interesting list of 14 teams never relegated since before the begin of the WWI ( 1914), therefore over 100 years ago, but it has been deleted........I hope that this page is truly democratic and not dictatorial like other Wiki pages !!!! NYCFC (talk) 23:52, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Feyenoord was never relegated. It first championship in Dutch top tier was in 1921.--181.66.156.181 (talk) 00:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi NYCFC,

You are absolutely right when you say that every Premier League-club has experienced relegation at one point in its history. You are also correct when you mention that football is played in Austria since 1911. This page, however, lists clubs that have never been relegated from their current top-tier league. In England this is the Premier League, in Austria the Bundesliga. These are very distinctive competitions, and not only continuations of a previous competition under a different name.

Of course the definition by which teams are listed on this page can be changed, but there has to be consensus. Wikipedia is neither a democracy nor a anarchy.

You also claim that Feyenoord has been relegated from the top. This seems to be incorrect. What is your source?

I also do not understand why you removed PSG from the list. Can you explain this? Tridek Sep (talk) 01:11, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Therefore, in your opinion, the titles of Austria Wien and Rapid from 1911 until 1974 aren't legitimate ? And also the titles in Argentina until 1939, in Uruguay until 1999 (!!!!), and in England until 1992 etc ? If the relegations aren't valid until to your arbitrary date, also the titles aren't valid. Therefore I am sorry for the Liverpool fans, but according your reasoning Liverpool has never been champion of England....... About the Feyenoord relegation in 1919: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918%E2%80%9319_Netherlands_Football_League_Championship PSG ? In 1972 was in D1 and in 1973 in D3.......... Now you can also don't change this page, but the history MUST be respected and the football history has beginning in the 1863, the top tier in England in 1888, not in 1992..........NYCFC (talk) 01:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I did not claim that Liverpool has never been champion of England, neither did I say any of the things you mention.

I merely said this page lists clubs that have never been relegated from their current top-tier league. I did not invent this definition, and it surely isn’t my ‘arbitrary date’. The English Premier League and the Austrian Bundeliga have a distinct history. Like I already said, the most logical approach is to look at what each national football association regards as the starting point of its current national top-level league. That isn’t arbitrary, is it?

And even if you assume that the current football competition in Austria started in 1911, why do you keep Sturm Graz in this list? The footnote in the article clearly indicates that this team relegated from the top prior to the establishment of the Austrian Bundesliga. You seem to be unaware of the fact that interpreting ‘current top-tier league’ in a different way, has implications on the entire list.

Also, it is not helpfull to change information that is well-sourced. The source concerning Feyenoord states:

If we consider the regional first classes since 1898, the only team never to have been relegated since gaining promotion to the first level is Feyenoord (promoted, as Feijenoord, in 1921).

You do however have a reasonable point when you claim that PSG has not always played at the highest level. From the same source mentioned before:

Paris Saint-Germain played in the first division 1971/72, but were taken over by Paris FC before the end of the season. The club had to restart with their amateur team, then in the 3rd division, kept the name, the colours and the president (but changed grounds), earned promotion to the second division at the end of 1972/73, and to the first at the end of 1973/74.

Maybe you want to include that information in the article? Tridek Sep (talk) 02:41, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Austrian Bundesliga

I think that now you should to correct the Austria situation. This is the important page of the RSSSF (not a my opinion....) about the clubs never relegated. Look the date of the Rapid and Austria Wien : 1911, not 1974.......... http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/coventric.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by NYCFC (talk • contribs) 19:01, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I am very well aware of the existence of the RSSSF-page you mention. Note however that this page uses a different definition than used in this Wikipedia-article. Again, this Wikipedia-article lists clubs that have never been relegated from their current top-tier league. In Austria, this is the Bundesliga. I included a source in the article clearly indicating that the Bundesliga is considered by the Austrian football association as a seperate competition.

I again would like to ask you the question why, if you think that the current Austrian competition started in 1911, you keep Sturm Graz on the list. Tridek Sep (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Sturm Graz ? I have found it on the list......... Why you don't eliminate from this list also all the Uruguayan, Paraguayn and the other clubs of the nations that in past had teams of 1 only city ? According this strange logic Nacional and Penarol are in the top tier since 1999 and not 1900 and 1901, Boca since 1939 and not 1913, the Paraguayan clubs only a few years ago...... It is simply ridicolous !!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by NYCFC (talk • contribs) 20:20, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

My point is simply that the Austrian Bundesliga was formed in 1974, and thus constitutes the ‘current Austrian competition’. This is well-sourced (see reference in article).

In regard to the page on RSSSF.com, you will find that many dates on that page don’t correspond with the dates in this Wikipedia-article. Also, many teams listed on this Wikipedia-page are not listed on the page you mentioned. You don’t find Sturm Graz there for example, but that team IS listed in this Wikipedia-article. This is because different criteria are used to list teams.

The definition we use on this Wikipedia-page is:

This is a list of football clubs which have never been relegated from their current national top-level league and have played at least ten seasons at this level.

Can you please indicate that you understand this? Tridek Sep (talk) 20:33, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, I have had the confirm that also Wikipedia is only a stupid dictatorial system and I don't care more this stupid page !!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by NYCFC (talk • contribs) 16:05, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia surely isn’t a ‘stupid dictatorial system’. Everyone can edit articles and it is advised to ‘be bold’ while doing so. The problem that arises here is that you want to change three specific dates (or rather: years) in this article that are correct given the criteria used on this page, while you apperently have no problem with the other entries that follow the same logic. If you only change a part of the information, while leaving the rest as it was, the consistency is lost.

In addition, the changes you want to make will not only affect the consistency on this page, they are also incorrect (see my previous comments regarding Sturm Graz).

If you are unhappy with the criteria that are used to list teams on this page, you can suggest a new definition you think should be used. However, there has to be consensus on this. Wikipedia is neither an anarchy, democracy, nor bureaucracy. Tridek Sep (talk) 16:34, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Unrelegated for three quarters of a century

On 25 August 2015, I included in this article a list of clubs that have continuously played at the highest level for 75 years or more. The reason for me doing so, is the conclusion that some users visit this page hoping to find a list of teams that have not been relegated for an extended period of time.

To create this list, I used data presented on this page, a page which is used as a source throughout this article.

In order to create a workable list, I took into account only those top-tier competitions that are or have been organised on a regional or national level, thus excluding the sub-regional leagues that were often organised in the early 20th century. I have to admit that this is in part a arbitrary decision. Also, finding complete data on early 20th century city-level leagues is nearly impossible, and would surely require own research, which is prohibited by Wikipedia-policy.

I also have to admit that the period of 75 years I chose, is arbitrary too. Expanding this time frame, however, would inevitably lead to a much longer list. One should realise that possibly hundreds of football teams manage to stay in their national top tiers for more than half a century. And that list continuous to grow each year.

Secondly, to avoid further misunderstanding over the list that includes all teams that never relegated from their current league, I mentioned the actual names of these leagues. It seems only logical to do so. I however kept the names of the countries in which the competitions are organised, because removing those would probably lead to another kind of confusion. It should be noted that some leagues include clubs from different countries, this too is a reason to list teams by leagues, rather than by country. Although that problem doens't arise on this page for the time being.

Thirdly, I made some extra contributions to the section Historical considerations and added a few footnotes. Tridek Sep (talk) 23:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Serie A

There seems to be some disagreement on when the current Italian competition started. Recently, two IP’s (from possibly the same contributor) changed the date Inter Milan started their uninterupted run from 1929 to 1908. The latter date being the year in which Inter Milan debuted in the Italian championship. The Serie A as we know it today, however, only came into being in 1929, which is the date explicitly used in the source for this section of the article.

In the last few days, another anonymous editor added Italian Football Championship alongide Serie A in the table ‘Unrelegated for three quarters of a century’, thus clearly indicating that the pre-1929 Italian championship should be regarded as a different tournament than the Serie A.

Of course, these two changes contradict each other.

The question that arises is the following: Is the Serie A regarded by the Italian football federation as a tournament started in 1929, or is it a continuation of the older Italian championship?

Untill this question is answered, I suggest to keep using 1929 as the date Inter Milan debuted in the Serie A. This is the date used in the source.

Changing this date without reference to a reliable source, but leaving the original reference, is clearly not the way to go. Tridek Sep (talk) 00:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

UPDATE: I looked at the revision history, and discovered that the first anonymous contributor I mentioned, used a thirth IP-adress earlier this month to make changes to this article. That time he did not change the year ‘1929’, but removed the bold that indicates Inter Milan is a founder member of Serie A (despite the source that says Inter Milan should be regarded as such). This contributor also used two of his IP’s to change well-sourced dates used in the lists of clubs in the Dutch and German competitions. These changes were reverted not only by me. I don’t claim this user is a vandal, but surely his contributions aren’t very helpfull. Tridek Sep (talk) 01:52, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Technically is not true. In 1945-46 season there was not Serie A. The champìonship was recalled Divisione Nazionale. Serie A "as we know it today" starts in the 1946-47 season.

Italian FIGC and Lega Nazionale Professionisti Serie A (LNPA) consider that Campionato Federale (1898-1904), Prima Categoria (1904-1922), Prima Divisione (1921-1926), 1921–22 Prima Divisione (C.C.I.), Divisione Nazionale (1926-1929), Serie A (1929-1945 and 1946-present) and the Divisione Nazionale II (1945-1946) as the same competition called Campionato Italiano di Calcio both in terms of achievements (since it first edition in 1898) and relegations (since its introduction in 1912).

No club has founded Serie A because it was never established "as a tournament started in 1929", It was only the result of the reform of the Divisione Nazionale structure (like UEFA made with the European Cup in 1992 and the UEFA Cup in 2009) led by then FIGC president Leandro Arpinati as is explicitly stated in the FIGC official statement transcript in the article of La Stampa Come sarà il campionato 1929-30 (...).--181.66.157.57 (talk) 00:01, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You are absolutely right that all the tournaments you mention are considered ‘Italian championships’. This does not necessarily mean these tournaments cannot be considered as different leagues.

Let me explain by giving an example.

In Germany, the Bundesliga is the national championship. But before its formation in the sixties, another national championship existed. Still, the Bundesliga is considered by the German association as a separate league. The same goes for the Eredivisie in the Netherlands, the Premier League in England and even the Champions League in Europe. While these tournaments all have predecessors, this does not make them all the same.

I’m not saying you are wrong when you claim that this is not the case in Italy. But your comparison between Italy and the European Cups indicate that you confuse these things.

Also, I’ve noticed you again changed 1929 to 1908, while leaving the reference to the source that says 1929. Does this seems logical to you? Tridek Sep (talk) 03:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Why be confused? UEFA regards Champions League as a reform of the European Champions' Cup and does the same beetween Europa League and UEFA Cup, but both together represent the same competition. This is the same case between the FIGC-LNPA and Serie A.

Serie A, as I said before -and added in this discussion FIGC the official statement about the first serie A edition- was a massive reform of the championship was then in force (Divisione Nazionale), not a new league.

If FIGC recognised only titles in the "Series A era" the roll of honor would change significantly. Now, if recognise the "good" from the beginning (achievements, in this case since 1898), why ignore the "bad" (relegations) since its introduction?--2001:1388:3:55E8:F814:51FD:579:1B55 (talk) 12:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

While it can be argued that the UEFA Champions League is merely a reform of the European Champions' Cup, for the purpose of statistics, UEFA considers the Champions League as a distinct tournament.

Again, you might have a reasonable point concering Serie A.

But like I said before, changing a date while leaving in place a reference to a source that says differently, is not the way to go. Tridek Sep (talk) 20:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

UEFA publishes CL statistics including only the period since 1992 because the structure of competition is different to that of the European Champions' Cup. For statistical purposes is not correct measure the whole competition ignoring all the formatting changes that had, but still, UEFA publishes the "absolute" statistics that includes the period prior 1992. That does not mean that UEFA considers it a "different competition".

Regarding the date in the Internazionale's case, the Serie A "as we know it today" began in 1946-47 with the creation of the new championship's organiser, Lega Nazionale Professionisti, which derives the current Lega Nazionale Professionisti Serie A (LNPA).--181.66.157.205 (talk) 01:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

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Data for Thailand

Please add these for Thailand.

Thai League - Thailand

• 1996/97: BEC Tero Sasana F.C.¹
• 2004: Buriram United²
• 2006: Chonburi F.C.
• 2006: Bangkok Glass F.C.³

^{1. Name changed to Police Tero F.C. after merger with Police United from 2017 season.}

^{2. Started their seasons as Provincial Electric Authority. Moved from their former home in Ayutthaya to Buriram in 2010 and changed the name to Buriram PEA F.C., and then changed the name again to the present name after merger with Buriram F.C. in 2012.}

^{3. Started their seasons as Krung Thai Bank F.C., and was taken over by Bangkok Glass group in 2009.} 2A01:388:38E:111:0:0:1:6 (talk) 23:58, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Done jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 01:26, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Data removed

Info on unrelegated Thai League teams was removed from the article when Police Tero was relegated in 2018.Per existing source given in this section,both Buriram United and Chonburi FC have yet to be relegated well over a decade after first entering the top flight.Additionally Muangthong United has remained in the Top Flight at least 12 seasons after first being promoted to it(same source).Please fix this, thanks in advance.Ranma9617 (talk) 00:26, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2017

England's Premier League should have Swansea City, AFC Bournemouth, Brighton and Hove Albion, and Huddersfield Town. 2607:FCC8:C289:3800:3878:26C3:9B45:5A3D (talk) 07:53, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:00, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Outdated

This list is outdated. A lot of lubs are missing that were founded just after the war, mainly in Eastern Europe, for instance Crvena Zvezda or Partizan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.85.174.201 (talk) 20:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Major League Soccer (MLS) Clubs

All MLS clubs should be on the list. There is no relegation system in US top tier football/soccer. No clubs relegate. 98.101.67.3 (talk) 15:51, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

It should not be so, because this article only lists soccer clubs that stay in the top tier for a long time in a soccer league system with promotions and relegations. MLS never used that system, so no cigar. Sorry! 😊

Quang, Bùi Huy (talk) 05:55, 15 September 2024 (UTC)