Talk:List of sovereign states/Archive 4

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I would like to change the vertical "List by country" navigational box on the right of this page to a horizontal one at the bottom. Please discuss at Template talk:Lists by country. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 12:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Is Transnistria a sovereign state?

According to the Montevideo convention, a state should be able to establish relations with other states. Transnistria is recognized as a state by nobody. In fact, it is internationally recognized as a region of Moldova. Compare that with, say, Texas, which is internationally recognized as a part of the USA. Texas, too, has relations with other sovereign states, but not as a sovereign state itself. Dpotop 10:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

PS: I have also read the previous threads concerning Transnistria and Northern Cyprus. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Northern Cyprus is recognized by another sovereign state (Turkey), whereas Transnistria never has been. So, if you argue that "Transnistria is de facto independent", I say OK, but when you say "sovereign state", I say no: This notion is clearly defined, and the condition 4 is not met. Dpotop 14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

PS2: As concerns other "international relations", take a look at Transnistria#International relations, and you will see that Transnistria is not capable of having relations with other states, unlike, e.g. Northern Cyprus. Dpotop 14:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

To Dpotop and other Romanian editors: Not only is Transnistria capable of having relations with other states, it is currently having these relations with other states. Last week alone, it signed 16 agreements with various government ministries in Russia. It also participates in status settlement talks with Ukraine, Moldova, USA, and the EU. It has an office of a permanent mission (the OSCE in its capital, Tiraspol. Some development organizations offer advice and / or funding, and try to influence policy. It receives official visits from numerous foreign ministries (recently: Sweden, Belgium, Spain). See the website of its Foreign Ministry if in doubt. It has names and pictures, and even includes details of signed agreements which you can download. Danida, from the Danish foreign ministry, is involved a program to deter human trafficking. In 2006, half a dozen countries submitted aid. Even the U.S. State Department paid for cargo of humanitarian supplies in mid-2006. - Mauco 15:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If any type of international relation would be acceptable, then the USA states qualify according to Montevideo. And not only them, but also French departments and Romanian judets, which take part in European regions, etc. What Montevideo requires is probably international recognition of the state. In the case of Transnistria this is not the case. You talk about conflict settlement. But the Palestinian authority has participated in such talks, too. However, it does not qualify, because of territory (disputed, just like in Transnistria) and foreign relations (none recognized as sovereign, just like in Transnistria).

Again, note that I'm not disputing the "de facto independence", but the sovereignty, according to Montevideo and to standards applied to other states and statal entities. Dpotop 15:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you want Article I of the Montevideo convention to be something it is not. What it defines is more or less the de facto state. If you read the article on the Montevideo Convention, you will see that:

the first sentence of article 3 explicitly states that "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."

sephia karta 16:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I read that, but then what kind of relations are implied in the Montevideo convention by "capacity to enter into relations with the other states"? Is this the capacity to control its borders (Transnistria cannot do so, because Ukraine refuses it, asking Moldovan travel documents). BTW, Transnistrian passports are probably worthless, given that they are not recognized by other countries? Nope, Transnistria cannot enter into relations with other states. Dpotop 20:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Why exactly do we use Montevideo as our basis for the definition of a state? Assuming that Sephia karta and Mauco's interpretation of Montevideo is correct, then the definition includes a lot of places not generally considered to be sovereign states. As such, it seems clear that Montevideo does not provide a consensus definition of what is a sovereign state, and as such, we should steer clear of it, or at least of using it as our only basis for declaring whether a state is sovereign or not. The various "de facto" states ought to be listed separately. The current situation, where there is nothing to actually distinguish Abkhazia from Afghanistan in terms of their status, is unacceptable. john k 16:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, it's absurd that we list South Ossetia and not Palestine, which is recognized by dozens of countries. john k 17:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with John. Only recognized countries should be in this list. The various "de facto" states, like Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, ought to be listed separately. We should create a separate list for them.--MariusM 17:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

What this list is doing, so that all will know, is to focus on Customary International Law. The Montevideo Convention is merely one expression of this. Montevideo is the norm, not the exception. It is one example of where customary international law was codified. But the same principles date back much further than the Montevideo Convention of 1934, and they have been re-affirmed again and after AFTER the Montevideo Convention (1934) as well. The European Union's Badinter Commission of 1991 used the same principles. Non-EU countries such as Switzerland apply the same principles. It is public international law, and principles which are valid worldwide. In contrast, the "only recognized countries" statement opens up a whole new can of worms. Which is not needed, since international law has already dealt with the issue. And this list follows the principles of international law. - Mauco 19:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Aren't you, somehow, picking the criteria that suits you? This list is made according to a given criterion: The Montevideo Convention. If you want to change the criterion, start another thread. My concern is the following: I believe that according to the Montevideo Convention, Transnistria should not be in this list. Dpotop 20:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

No, I am not picking the criteria which suits me. This is a stable version of the article, which you are attempting to all of a sudden change. The reason why the Montevideo Convention is highlighted is because it is representative of customary international law. You can of course attempt to change international law, if you want. But that is outside of Wikipedia's realm. - Mauco 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not a stable version. The article used to either list Abkhazia, et al, in a separate section, or foonoted in a different type face. Now they are just listed alongside everything else. And, pretty clearly, whatever customary international law may say, this is not how these things are generally recognized by most people on earth. For instance, every makes of world maps that I am aware of does not show any of these countries (well, I have one that shows North Cyprus, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some showing Somaliland, but I'm focusing right now on the former Soviet entities). I think this list ought to give the conventional list of sovereign states that is generally recognized by people throughout the world. Any criteria that gives us Transnistria and South Ossetia is clearly not the conventional way to do this, because Transnistria and South Ossetia are not normally considered to be proper sovereign states. john k 14:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I am quite sure that the stable version of the articles does include them. I have edited here, on and off, for the better part of 2006 and have frequently referred to this list. If I recall correctly, however, the unrecognized states were listed in italics and had a footnote next to them. This is how it is done on List of countries, too. But their inclusion is part of the stable version, as I think that a check of the history log will show. Longtime editors might want to comment on this. - Mauco 15:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

What does "capacity to enter into relations with the other states" means?

I believe the entire problem lies in the understanding of this expression. My oppinion is the following: Transnistria does not have this capacity to enter into relations with the other states. Transnistria does not have the capacity to control its foreign commerce, as proves the Ukrainian requirement for Moldovan papers. And from what I know, Transnistria does not have the basic capacity of issuing de facto accepted passports (this is why every other Transnistrian as a Russian/Moldovan/other passport). Dpotop 20:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that your characterization is incorrect, foreign trade, passports, etc are not mentioned in the Montevideo Convention at all and rarely enter into a consideration of statehood issues in international law. On the other hand, what is specifically mentioned is the capacity to enter into relations with other states. Here, not only does Transnistria have the capacity. It has actual relations. Last week alone, 16 agreements were signed with Russia. Agreements have also been signed Moldova, with Ukraine, and numerous with the OSCE who is a "conglomorate" which represents states only. The OSCE keeps a permanent office in Tiraspol, the capital of Transnistria. This is not original research. Sources can be provided for all of the above. - Mauco 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

So, what exactly does qualify as "international relation" as concerns sovereignty? Just about any piece of paper? But then, you have guerillas in Colombia that control their territory and engage in peace talks and hostage exchange with other governments. :) Are they sovereign? Dpotop 06:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Even a private company can sign agreements with a foreign government. Does it mean that private companies are sovereign states?--MariusM 13:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

No. The capacity to enter into relations is only one of four criteria which together form a principle in customary international law. The other three are population, territory and government. Transnistria meets these requirements. Private companies do not, nor do Colombian guerilla groups. - Mauco 13:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you describe something which does not, under your definition, have the capacity to enter into relations with other states? You seem to have diluted this principle to the point of near meaninglessness. I think what we need here is citations - some sort of textbook explanation of what this principle means would be very helpful here. john k 14:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Relations with other states would include official visits (where the head of a state is referred to by his official title by the government of the receiving state). Apart from their lack of the other three criteria of the Montevideo Convention, that is something which guerilla groups or private companies, to name the two extreme examples, can never obtain. - Mauco 15:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, mentioning self-styled titles is usual when dealing with breakaway/guerilla entities. I presume what you would need to show is actual official documents of another state signed by both Smirnov (or other minister), in his quality of President of Transnistria", and some other chief of state. Something that goes beyond the mere solving of the border conflict. Dpotop 15:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I am referring to an official statement (press release) of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs a foreign country which refers to Igor Smirnov as President of Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica (the official name of Transnistria). This is a U.N. Security Council member. I can assure you that these things are not dealt with lightly and that this is not "usual" (as you claim) when "when dealing with breakaway/guerilla entities" (as you claim). You may want to provide sources to back up the somewhat novel theory that this is usual in international relations. Furthermore, I merely gave this as an example. There are numerous other items of evidence in the "capacity supporting" category, and I would most certainly also include international bilateral Ministry-to-Ministry agreements in that field as well. Last week alone, a further 16 of these were added. - Mauco 18:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I presume that by "member of the UN security council" you mean Russia. Well, I find extremely important that even the country that created and supported Transnistria as a breakaway entity (including militarily) refuses to recognize it as a sovereign state. Turkey, for instance, has recognized Northern Cyprus. For me, this means that there's no way Transnistria will be a normal state in the near future. Not even Russia openly supports its sovereignty. It's just another way to create a frozen conflict zone near the EU and NATO. Dpotop 19:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I hate to be harsh, but that is really a straw man argument. We are NOT giving sources as to whether or not Transnistria will "be a normal state in the near future". That is, frankly, irrelevant to this list. All we need to determine is if it meets the criteria listed by the Montevideo Convention. We are clear on the first three, and I have given five sources to document that it also meets the fourth. Not content with that, you now change the goal posts? Sorry, but the very same Montevideo Convention is also clear on the recognition issue, as are the sources which I have provided. So please just stick to the topic, and we can quickly close out this discussion. - Mauco 23:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

So with this flurry of "international activity" (basically limited to adjoining territories and the country whose armed forces sided with it against Moldova), has the PMR opened any embassies? To resolve the situation, at some point Smirnov needs to be talked to. The act of talking to Smirnov, however, in no way confers legitimacy on Smirnov or the PMR, which is what this series of responses contends. If you try to talk a thief into leaving your house, does the act of talking to him confer legitimacy on his presence? That is what is being postulated here as comprising international relations. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Second question: What reliable source stated that Transnistria is sovereign?

It also seems that this article includes parts that are in direct breach of WP:OR, looking more like an original research paper, than like a report on what reliable sources say. All sorts of debates took place here, as to which states are to be included, and which not, and some guys decided Transnistria qualifies according to the Montevideo Convention. But this is exactly what WP:OR is about: original research. Dpotop 20:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Empirical evidence is not original research. Anyone can read the Montevideo Convention. There is plenty of precedent for how to interpret it, too. Then you simply review the more than 200 sources of interactions at various levels with other sttaes and it is becomes clear as water that Transnistria meets the requirement. - Mauco 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I cite from WP:OR: It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source. Putting Transnistria here is exactly this. There's no source having have made the same analysis. Dpotop 06:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You should also read WP:SYNT. Dpotop 06:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

SYNT is actually beside the point, in this case. But if all you need is an external source which tells you that Transnistria meets the requirements of the Montevideo Convention, then just say so, and lots of editors here can easily provide it. It is about as far from original research as you can get. - Mauco 13:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright, please do so. I'm particularly interested in what is said on whether any of these states "have the capacity to enter into relations" with other states, and on whether South Ossetia, at least, has a defined territory which it controls. This latter seems particularly dubious. So, anyway, citations please. john k 14:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd be leary of writing anything about South Ossetia since I know too little about this subject. I am quite familiar with Transnistria, however. They have several government ministries in place which a) have the capacity to enter into relations with other states, and b) actually do enter into relations with other states, usually in the form of agreements signed with their counterparts abroad. Would you like sources for a) or for b)? A should be enough, since that is what the Montevideo Convention is about. But numerous examples of B abound as well. (For instance, last week alone, 16 new bilateral agreements.) - Mauco 15:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that JohnK, like me, would like to see some reputable source saying explicitly that either:

1. Transnistria is sovereign, or
2. Transnistria meets the requirements of the Montevideo convention

That's all. Dpotop 15:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's what John said: I'm particularly interested in what is said on whether any of these states "have the capacity to enter into relations" with other states. - Mauco 15:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry for you, but saying only this is not enough. Remember WP:OR, WP:SYNT. BTW: I indented your text. Dpotop 15:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for indenting my text. But what are we really discussing here, again? The better accepted theory of customary international law holds that the existence of states is a factual matter, and that recognition by other states or the international community can be no more than evidence of statehood or a display of willingness to establish a certain level of relations with the recognised state. Even the entities aspiring to statehood which are not formally recognised by other states do have rights vis‑a‑vis other states. For example, during four decades the state of Israel was not formally recognised by many Arab states; still, these states recognised that the territory of Israel could not be invaded by them. When in 1949 British planes were downed by the Israel airforce, the United Kingdom at once informed the Israeli authorities that they would demand compensation. The fact that the United Kingdom had not recognised Israel at that time was not considered relevant. Last, before the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) was recognised by Greece, that country did in fact recognise that de facto a state existed on the territory of (former) Yugoslav Macedonia; indeed, Greece even negotiated with FYROM in order to reach a settlement on the name and state symbols of that state. Within the past seven days alone, two incidents somewhat along the lines of these examples happened in Transnistria. - Mauco 15:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you give the sources you were talking about earlier, so that we finish this matter? Dpotop 16:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll deindent back out and give you some. - Mauco 18:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Most of these are not online. One of the most recent and most specific to this mater is «Отношения России и Абхазии: проблемы теории и практики» 19 декабря 2006 г. в Государственной Думе РФ which fortunately is online at http://materik.ru/print.php?section=analitics&bulsectionid=17055

It is a presentation by international law and international relations specialist K. Zatulin, head of the Institute of CIS countries, to the lower house of Russia (State Duma) in December 2006. The article reviews the four criteria of the Montevideo Convention, then states that "it is obvious" that Transnistria meets "at least three of four requirements." It then examines the fourth requirement, and concludes that "in fact, their capacity to enter into relations with other states is beyond any doubt."

If you have access to a good library, there are many more sources for this. Some of them, for starters:

• International Society and the De Facto State' by Scott Pegg, Ashgate Publishing (1999), ISBN: 1840144785, pages 30 - 43
  
• Fragmentation and the International Relations of Micro-states: self-determination and statehood by Jorri C. Duursma, Cambridge University Press (1996), ISBN 0521563607, page 122
  
• De facto states: the Quest for Sovereignty, by Tozun Bahcheli, Barry Bartmann, Henry Felix Srebrnik, Routledge, UK (2004), ISBN 0714654760, page 112
  
• I would also include The Sustainability and Future of Unrecognized Quasi-States, by Pål Kolstø, Journal of Peace Research, Vol. 43, No. 6, (2006) DOI: 10.1177/0022343306068102, of the International Peace Research Institute in Oslo, Norway, Pages 723-740, although it does not enumerate Montevideo directly. It does go to the heart of all four criteria, however, and sustains this (narrow) sovereignty argument.

It is interesting research and there can be no doubt at all that Transnistria and Abkhazia belongs on the list, but with the appropriate disclaimers and footnotes of course. I am less certain about South Ossetia. I know too little, but I will be glad to help anyone else with sources if someone wants to do more research into this. - Mauco 18:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I took a look on the source http://materik.ru/print.php?section=analitics&bulsectionid=17055 . You can obtain an English version (more or less good) using babelfish.altavista.com (you put in the web page and choose the Russian to English translation).

I see a single occurrence of "Dniestr Moldovian" in the text, and as concerns the 4th point the position is that it's debatable. Nothing new on sovereignty, I'm afraid. BTW, does someone know what this "materik.ru" is? Dpotop 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

As to the other sources, I presume "reputable" includes "verifiable", so I'll just wait for some other reputable editor to confirm reading them. Dpotop 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

So, Mauco, do you have some real source? Dpotop 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The four books quoted are peer-reviewed academic works. They are more substantial than most of what floats around on the Internet. I am sorry that you want everything to be hyperlinked. But in my field, some of the best material is hardcopy and not always available online. - Mauco 23:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I am dubious of sources coming from interested parties. That a Russian paper states that it is "beyond doubt" that Transnistria can enter into relations with other states does not settle the matter for me. That it takes the other three points as "obvious," but feels the need to engage in an argument as to the latter (which is, I take it, what it says? If I've misinterpreted, correct me), suggests that, in fact, it is not "beyond doubt," and that people have, in fact, argued the opposite. I'd really be interested to see some general discussion of the issue of what it is that "capacity to enter into relations" means under international law. At any rate, whether or not these states meet the Montevideo definition, I still don't think they should be listed alongside the rest of the list. john k 21:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

John, that criticism is only valid for the online link. Are you able to check out the four Western academic sources? A good university library should be able to locate all or most of them. They are not interested parties in any way, and they back up our edit in full. - Mauco 23:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I will try to take a look, but there's no guarantee that I'll have time to do so. It'd be nice if you provided a paraphrase of the arguments these writers make about the "capacity to enter into relations" business. BTW, none of the sources you refer to appear to be legal sources - they all look like poli sci stuff, and I'm not sure that political scientists are qualified experts on the interpretation of international law. For instance, the abstract of the Kolsto book you mention, for instance, appears to be an analysis of the real, on the ground political and economic conditions of these states, not a legal analysis of their precise status. john k 19:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't know if I count as a "reputable editor", but I did give that source a try. First, Konstantin Zatulin is this guy, here. Second, in his report, he mostly focuses on Abkhasia, giving Transnistria a glancing mention. Third, he argues, that, since Transnistria does participate in conflict regulation talks (that also include Russia and Ukraine), that would, in his opinion, qualify as at least a basic form of relations with foreign entities.

The site appears to be a news aggregator (hosted by Zatulin's Institute of CIS (an NGO)), providing information concerning post-Soviet territories from a Russian point of view. In my opinion, Zatulin's report would formally pass as a WP:RS, although I'd personally prefer a more neutral, preferrably non-Russian source on this issue. --Illythr 22:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

The article is about Abkhazia. The points which are relevant to this discussion (Montevideo Convention in general, and the "capability" issue in particular) all cover Transnistria. They cover Transnistria specifically, by name, in the context. Not implicitly. Do not focus on Zatulin's nationality, please, but on his scolarly credentials in the field. He is the top expert in the State Duma, and the head of a very serious, respected organization which works professionally precisely in this field. He is probably the most qualified congressman to analyze these issues. - Mauco 23:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Illythr. As I explained a bit earlier in the discussions, I presume that such basic forms of "conflict resolution" cannot count for Montevideo. Why? Because even guerilla movements participate in peace talks (e.g. in Columbia), without being acknowledged as sovereign. Moreover, and as you noted, there is the fact that the source is Russian, closely related to the Duma. BTW, I found a very interesting source on the Transnistrian war on that page: http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?3165. Dpotop 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW, it is interesting to see that Zatulin and the on-line Russian source provided by Mauco are very careful, and stop short of saying that "Transnistria is sovereign". They both talk about the Montevideo convention, say that "Transnistria has basic forms of relations", but do not say whether these basic forms qualify Transnistria for Montevideo sovereignty (they do not draw the conclusion that interests us). I find this to be a form of honesty. Dpotop 09:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I also don't know if you followed the threads I initiated here from the beginning, but let me again state that I am simply questioning here the sovereignty of Transnistria (according to Montevideo), not its de facto independence, which is unedeniable. Dpotop 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

My position is the following: There are currently no reputable sources saying that Transnistria is sovereign or that it satisfies Montevideo. Moreover, deciding here any of them qualifies as both POV (because there are sensible arguments agains) and original research. Upto now, Mauco didn't manage to present me with reputable sources contradicting it. Dpotop 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

He gave you five sources and some of them are scientific, it says ¨Cambridge University¨ on one of them, did you read the sources already? removing Transnistria from the list is POV because it directly denies the possibility that it is not a sovereign state, but including it with a footnote explaining exactly what's going on is neutral because it presents both sides of the story: it is considered sovereign by some criteria by some people but not by others, so the article as it currently stands does not endorse Russian POV because it includes a footnote, and if you think this is not sufficient, then add another, but just don't Transnistria to make the article reflect your POV that it does not comply with the rules for the montevideo convention. this is the same from the old Abkhazia discussion, you have maybe not seen it but it was solved a long long time ago Pernambuco 21:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC) (later was discovered that Pernambuco is a sockpuppet of Mauco)

• I don't have it with me, but I do have what is a reputable source which specifically addresses Montevideo with respect to Transnistria and clearly states that these criteria do not confer legitimacy as a sovereign state. The statement here and elsewhere that Transnistria is sovereign according to Montevideo (and examples cited) at best qualifies as the original research/POV of one person--which does not qualify for Wikipedia even if correct--which I hasten to add, it is not. (Also, the political analysis of any Russian official/politician/analyst is inadmissible as being totally partisan. And let's not get into the "consider the words, not the source" argument again.) With regards to Pernambuco's comments, the PMR is not considered sovereign by pretty much the entire planet of sovereign countries and not even by the country which has a vested geopolitical interest (Russia). People of opposing viewpoints arguing on Wikipedia does not mean "maybe it's sovereign, maybe it isn't, let's footnote that maybe it isn't, that's sufficient." Montevideo is relevant to "sovereignty" only when a government is recognized as legitimate--as Montevideo cannot confer legitimacy, it cannot confer sovereignty.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 05:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Montevideo and the so-called "frozen conflict" zones

From "Engaging Eurasia's Separatist States--Unresolved Conflicts and DeFacto States" by Dov Lynch, the first book I've come across that deals with Transnistria, South Ossetia, et al. in a cohesive fashion... Regarding "empirical" claims to statehood: "The classic definition of an entity that may be regarded as a sovereign state was set forth in the Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States of 1933. The Montevideo criteria are that an entity have (1) a permanent population, (2) a defined territory, (3) a government, and (4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states. The post-Soviet de facto states fulfill the first three of these criteria and claim to pursue the fourth. However, the empirical qualifications of the de facto state cannot make it legal or legitimate in international society. As [Scott] Pegg [academic expert in international relations teaching at Indiana University] argued, it is 'illegitimate no matater how effective it is'.... The de facto state claims both to be sovereign over its territory and people, and to be constitutionally independent of any other state. The key difference for the de facto state resides in its non-recognition. This status prevents it from enjoying membership in the club of states--the de facto state does not have recognized external sovereignty."

• So, bottom line, is Transnistria et al are not sovereign because they are not recognized. Original research by Wiki editors protesting the "latest" A,B, and C "deals" (versus reputable, non-partisan, recognized expert academic sources) cannot change that.
• From http://www.sgpproject.org/experts/dov_lynch.html: Dov Lynch has been Lecturer in War Studies at King’s College, London since September 1999. Prior to this, he was University Lecturer in International Relations/Russian Foreign Policy at the University of Oxford for 1999, and a Research Fellow at St Antony's College. He was also a Research Fellow at the Royal Institute of International Affairs, Russia and Eurasia Programme. He received a doctorate in International Relations from the University of Oxford (St Antony's College) in 1997, and a BA in Soviet Studies from Yale University in 1992. In 2001, he was invited to be a Research Fellow with the EU Institute of Security Studies. Dov Lynch is currently Director of a two-year project funded by the United States Institute of Peace called 'Exiting from Volatile Impasses: De Facto States in Euro-Asian Security.' His major publications include Russian Peacekeeping Strategies towards the CIS, (2000) and co-edited volumes on Energy in the Caspian Region (2002) and The Euro-Asian World: A Period of Transition (2000). He has also written Occasional Paper 32 and is writing a Chaillot Paper on Russian-EU Relations. Dr. Lynch’s specialties are EU-Russian relations, security developments in Russia and the former Soviet Union, as well as EU policies towards the region.

Transnistria is not sovereign. Montevideo, as argued here by Mauco and others, does not confer sovereignty on Transnistria; same for the other frozen conflict zones.

• And no commentary would be complete without... "I dispute Mauco's source as partisan." And Mauco's usual "consider the words not the source." ("Do not focus on Zatulin's nationality, please, but on his scolarly credentials in the field. He is the top expert in the State Duma.") Anyone who is a deputy of the Russian State Duma cannot possibly be regarded as non-partisan.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
• Forgot, dispute Mauco's (et al.) interpretation of his other sources as putting Transnistria over the sovereignty hump.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
• And, all of us arguing over Montevideo and the sovereignty of states is the ultimate in original research; any articles of the sort claiming to list "sovereign but unrecognized states" violates No original research  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Apart from the already-cited academic works which attest to Transnistria's de facto sovereignty, I should also point out that even Moldovan sources exist which recognize this reality. For instance, http://www.solei.md/en/excursions_md/excursia from Chisinau has the following 'money quote': "Travelers to Transnistria will be stunned while seeing a region, which is very much an independent state in all but name. It has its own currency, police force, army, and its own (unofficial) borders, which are controlled by Transnistria border guards." - Mauco 17:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Now we are postulating that travel brochures are sufficient to argue for de jure sovereignty. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Unrecognized States

Last year it was Abkhazia and South Ossetia that people were removing. This year it is Transnistria that is being removing. Either way it is POV pushing as entries from the unrecognized countries are not being treated the same. Either all should be removed or all should be listed. Even if your interest/knowledge relates to one of the countries, you should be working on what the criteria of what should be listed on this page rather than just removing an entry. Many times when an entry is removed it usually looks silly as the top of the page, which has a count and description, is not updated - making the page inconsistent.

To me there are only three possibilities of dealing with this issue: 1) Remove all the unrecognized countries 2) Leave the unrecognized countries on the list but rename the page List of Independence Countries (or something similar) and remove reference to the Montevideo convention (Which seems to be a source of friction) 3) Leave the page as is

Until there is a consensuses on what to do here in the talk page, the page should not be changed. If it is, it will be reverted. -- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 14:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm for option 3, personally; we already make it clear enough that they're unrecognised. —Nightstallion (?) 14:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course, I agree 1000%, the list is very clear. it has the introduction, and the criteria, and if you look at footnote 1, you will see that this list includes de facto states, so the only question here is whether places like Transnistria are de facto states, and the answer is yes, so they can be included. The people who want to delete them, they would be ruling out the possibility that they are not sovereign states, but compare this to including them but saying the exact situation (that their statehood is disputed) and let the reader make up his own mind, that is the most neutral thing we can do, this is why the footnotes are there, and personal POV from someone who maybe is a Transnistria hater does not override WP:NPOV. Pernambuco 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

leave the page the way it is.

I'm sorry, but the proposal of Shocktm relies on the false hypothesis that the situation of all the unrecognized states is the same, and that we should either accept or reject them as a group. This is false. There is an obvious difference between entities such as Taiwan, Transnistria, and the Palestinian authority, and we should deal with them separately. The only common decision is the choice of the rules for accepting sovereign states. This has already been done (Montevideo Convention). Now, each of these unrecognized countries must be checked separately against the requirements. To put it otherwise: Don't be lazy, you can't create an encyclopedia through batch processing. Dpotop 15:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a list of sovereign states and it is defined from the criteria in the intro, so the POV push to exclude some areas and allow others, it is not right, the only criteria is from the intro, and this list is not an extended mirror of United Nations member states, so be realistic and face the fact Abkhazia and South Ossetia and Transnistria and those places are currently de facto independent, so Wikipedia has to show the current situation, with accuracy Pernambuco 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

As concerns Transnistria, I gave here enough arguments showing that the information concerning it currently qualifies as WP:OR and WP:SYNT, and moreover this original research is POV. Why do you keep re-including it? And why do you do so while refusing to answer my concerns on this talk page? Dpotop 15:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

maybe it is that you don't understand the meaning of "sovereign", because "Sovereign" does not mean "recognized by the United Nations" or anything like that, read the introduction to the article and the definition of sovereign states from the Montevideo Convention Pernambuco 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

Is this for real?! Did you at least read what I wrote? Where on Earth did you read "United Nations"? Do yourself a favor and read the posts before answering. What I'm saying here is that Transnistria does not comply with Montevideo. Dpotop 19:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

wiki-pedia can't ignore that these territorities do rule themselves, and are therefore sovereign in a practical way Pernambuco 21:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

But then, this article should not claim that the listed states comply with Montevideo (under Montevideo, self-rule is not enough to define sovereignty). I think that our misunderstanding comes from exactly this point: you think that the criterion should be "self rule", whereas I rely on Montevideo (which is the advertised criterion).

I am not particularly fond of Montevideo, but if we change it we need to clearly state what other criterion is enforced (maybe just our will, but I find this a bit arbitrary and conflict-prone). Dpotop 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

---

At List of countries and List of sovereign states, it is clearly written:The listing of any name in this article is not meant to imply an official position in any naming dispute. I understand both lists contain all countries which may be sovereign/ all territories which may be countries, including the ones with uncertain status. In my opinion, if we remove Transnistria from these lists, it is taking side. Dl.goe 19:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I cite from the article:

This list derives its definition of a sovereign state from Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention from 1933. According to the Convention, a sovereign state should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. The list includes all states that satisfy these criteria and claim independence.

As you see, the article claims that Transnistria satisfies the 4 Montevideo points. So, it's not just an arbitrary list. BTW: I dispute the fact that Transnistria satisfies point (d), and I claim that including Transnistria here is in breach with WP:OR, WP:SYNT, WP:NPOV. Dpotop 20:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, wouldn't any country's inclusion here then be in breach of these guidelines? sephia karta 21:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Good question. I presume that very few states have had their sovereignty explicitly checked against Montevideo in a reputable source. In this case, the solution would be to find the good criteria, not including original research, under which we can create state lists. I presume the sensible thing to do is to take a look to places like the CIA factbook and the likes and list states from there. Or create a list of all states and autonomous territories and mark in several columns its status according to various sources. Dpotop 22:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The currently Montevideo criteria is imprecise, as it refers to which state is sovereign, but doesn't refer to which territory is state. It leads to paradoxes like claiming Transnistria is a sovereign state according to Montevideo, but it is not recognised by major powers that follow Montevideo convention(USA and EU). My suggestion is to split

1. list of sovereign states in
   1. list of recognised sovereign states and
   2. list of territories with disputed sovereign state status
2. list of states in
   1. list of recognised states and
   2. list of unrecognised states

The criteria may be:

1. undisputed/recognised if all Big Powers recognised it
2. disputed/unrecognised if at least one of the Big Powers recognised, and at least one didn't
3. the criteria to determine Big Powers can be the group of eight Dl.goe 08:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC) I don't think so, the UNSCpermanent five should be the criteria since it was established in 1945 and the UN charter prevails over other international agreement. check UN article 103, and canada is not a great power, are you trying to exclude China?

In addition to defining these objective criteria, we should also fix clear rules defining what is not original research. For instance, when talking about "territories with disputed sovereign state status", should it be necessary to have at least one source (not necessarily reputable) explicitly stating that the territory is sovereign? Dpotop 12:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

A prove that there is a dispute, that regional officials claim the territory is a sovereign state is needed to add a territory at that list.
But I have a second suggestion, with changes that are easy to make:

1. We remove the Montevideo criteria
2. We introduce This list also contains territories that claim to be sovereign states, but actually have a disputed status. At List of sovereign states and This list also contains territories that claim to be states, but actually have a disputed status. At List of states Dl.goe 19:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd say this solution is not good. The title of the list is "List of sovereign states", and most readers will not read the header of the page. So, readers will think that all the entities claiming sovereignty really are sovereign. BTW: most states have some claim of sovereignty, so why have two lists if we take your solution? :) Dpotop 21:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I don't know any recognised country that in not sovereign, and I think we cannot speak about the sovereignty of an unrecognised one. Than we should have only

1. list of recognised states
2. list of unrecognised states.Dl.goe 21:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Why should recognition play such a huge factor? BTW Dl.goe, we already do have a List of unrecognized countries article. Khoikhoi 22:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Khoi. The problem, as I see it, is that you do need some criteria for including states in this list. Criteria compatible with the rules of Wikipedia, which exclude original research. Several criteria have been proposed:

1. The four criteria of the Montevideo Convention. As I and Sephia Karta noticed earlier, checking countries against these criteria (and especially international relations) qualifies as WP:OR and WP:SYNT, because there are no (reliable) sources explicitly stating the info (editors are forced to draw conclusions, which qualifies as WP:OR).
2. Recognition by other states. Does not cover well states such as ROC, Transnistria, etc.
3. ... (you name them)

After reading much of the posts here, my impression is that this article is and will definitely remain a nuisance. What we need are articles like: "Countries of the UN", "Unrecognized states", etc, and then a nice synthesis article that explains the relations between the various lists and the position of notable elements, such as ROC, Palestine, etc. Dpotop 23:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree list of sovereign states should be deleted, and list of states should be replaced by list of recognised states. Wikipedia cannot get involved in the recognition of one state; we cannot give sovereign state status to any country; all we can do is looking at international recognition.Dl.goe 23:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree with the way this list is arranged. The countries that do not exist de-jure cannot be included in the same list as internationally recognized countries. You cannot equate breakaway regions with the countries that have all attributes of an independent country, including the ability to join international organizations and sign international agreements. And Montevideo convention is absolutely irrelevant here, it was signed by 19 American states and has no binding force to the rest of the world. There are more than 150 countries in the world, as is known. Grandmaster 06:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The discussion here is not about the ratification of Montevideo (which is irrelevant to wikipedia), but on whether we can apply Montevideo to classify states, given that only few of them are marked as "satisfying Montevideo" in reputable sources. Dpotop 07:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

But why Montevideo convention should be used at all in this article as criteria for inclusion? My point is that you cannot use as a sole principle a convention which has no force outside of Americas. Grandmaster 07:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

My point is that Wikipedia is not submitted to international law. You cannot reject a criterion because most states don't recognize it. However, Montevideo must be rejected because no reliable sources (a Wikipedia criterion, this time) exist explicitly stating that states like France, Turkey, or Japan satisfy the Montevideo criteria. So the result is the same. But based on criteria which are meaningful to Wikipedia. Dpotop 08:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the criterion should be international recognition and de-jure existence. Listing every breakaway region as a sovereign state is wrong. Grandmaster 08:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

How about list of UNO members? It has a criterion that no one can dispute. Grandmaster 08:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you read the discussions on top of this page, you will see that "international recognition" has a problem: Depending on its definition, it rejects states such as ROC, Northern Cyprus, Israel, etc. Also, the list of United Nations member states already exists, so there's no point in creating an identical list here. In fact, there is no way you can create a List of sovereign states without original research, and this is forbidden on wikipedia. Dpotop 09:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

My oppinion is that we should remove this article completely (and maybe make it a link to Sovereignty). Then, we need lists of countries grouped on objective, easily-sourced criteria, such as: UN membership, recognized, Disputed international status, etc. Then, all these lists must be commented and put in perspective in the article Sovereignty. Dpotop 09:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that. This list has no reliable criterion and is POV and original research. Grandmaster 10:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I observe a trend here that I find very worrying, I believe some of you take the current set-up of this article for something it is not. Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention has been used for this article for as long as I've known this article to exist, and for good reason. It is not used because it contains a definition of the sovereign state that all states have agreed upon. Actually, states cannot be bound to follow any coherent theory of sovereignity, it is entirely up to their personal whims what they do and what they don't recognise. If president Mugabe of Zimbabwe so desires, his country can set up a "Lunar authority" tomorrow and recognise it as the sole sovereign government of the Moon. Or if Argentine and Brazil get into a row, they are free to no longer recognise each others sovereignity just like that. To this extent, recognition of other states is no more and no less than an opinion. Scientists of international law want to have a definition of the 'highest' actor in international politics (never mind international organisations for the moment), what they call the sovereign state, and for this they can't rely on 'international recognition', because, ultimately, that is based upon opinions only. In concreto: the scientists want to have a definition that correctly indentifies Somaliland as an international actor, because on the scene of international politics it acts, talks, walks independently from Somalia, which 'international recognition' considers it to be part of. And it just happens to be the case that the Montevideo Convention is most used for this definition. Who did or did not sign it is then wholy irrelevant, because Montevideo is not being used to commit or empower anyone, it is merely used as a tool for classification. That Transnistria is included in the list, does not grant it any rights, and it does not in any way guarentee Transnistria's continuing existence next week, it merely means that for all uses and purposes, Transnistria, at this present moment, acts independently. How then is the current approach not objective and NPOV?

As for the guideline against own research, for the cases under discussion, criteria 1-3 of Montevideo are only a matter of straightforward checking of facts. Criterium 4 seems also to involve only the observation that e.g. Transnistria has missions to Russia and Abkhazia and that it is party to the peace negotiations with Moldovia. If these are not diplomatic relations, then what are they? If one wants to claim that checking whether a state satisfies criterium 4 constitutes original research, then one needs to present an alternative hypothesis as to what criterium 4 might mean other than the obvious, namely a state is capable of having diplomatic relations if its diplomats can talk to other state's diplomats. As long as we don't know better than that this is in fact the intended meaning, I don't see any original research. This comes on top of the fact that sources have been provided that confirm that Transnistria does in fact satisfy Montevideo. (One state that may not have satisfied criterium 4 may have been Somalia, when it didn't yet have a government.)

I don't see the problem with the current approach. sephia karta 11:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The current approach is the best by far, it has been that way for a long time from what I can see from the page, then for the countries that should be excluded, there are other lists, for instance there is the list of United Nations member states and the 7 de facto states can not be there, if you want to see a list that excludes them, then go there, but do not deny the reality and Wikipedia must show the reality, that some places are currently de facto independent and de facto sovereign rulers within their own borders Pernambuco 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

Well, the mere fact that you decide what is and what is not "international relations" is by definition original research, more precisely synthesis work (cf. WP:SYNT). Dpotop 11:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW: Why do you want to have this article, that is qualified by many as POV? Why not have the clear lists of UN members, recognized states, states claiming sovereignty, etc, and then explaining the differences between them, and the particular cases in an article? This is possible without infringing on WP:OR and WP:SYNT, and it allows the special treatment of each special case, thus avoiding the POV accusations that are bound to happen when considering all these cases equivalent. Dpotop 11:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I can see how you find that this article violates WP:Synt, but I've yet to see any reason why it should violate WP:NPOV. The present article already starts out with a break-down of states acording to recognition, and this can of course be elaborated further still. sephia karta 15:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

From what I know, I would say that Transnistria is not sovereign. And for two main reasons: 1. The borders of Transnistria are still conflict lines, quite different from the actually claimed land, and likely to change if the balance of forces (most notably the Russian involvement) changes. 2. The only international relations Transnistria concern peace keeping talks (any guerilla group, such as FARC does this) and the relation with its Russian protecting power. So, saying that Transnistria is de facto independent and claiming sovereignty (over some territory) is OK. Saying that it is sovereign is POV. Not even the Russian sources provided by User:William Mauco do not draw this conclusion, but let it to the reader. But let's cotinue this discussion on the Transnistria page. Dpotop 15:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

My point all along is that sovereign is roughly the same as de facto independent. It just so happens that is what sovereignity means in international law. sephia karta 22:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point very well. I could even argue the same in an original article. My point is that on wikipedia we cannot use juridical arguments, just reliable sources. Dpotop 09:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The artice on the Montevideo Convention mentions that the EU and Zwitserland follow a similar approach, except that their definition requires only a territory, population and a political authority, and this is sourced. There would be no research required to verify that the "de facto 7" satisfy these criteria. What is it that you exactly want reliable sources for? That this is the international standard? sephia karta 10:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

So let's follow the practice of both EU and Switzerland and not recognize Transnistria, South Ossetia, etc as sovereign. :) Unless you can find a source where the EU or Switzerland recognize the sovereignty of the two countries (Otherwise, it's WP:SYNT: The EU says A, some other source says B, and from here we deduce C). Dpotop 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't take me bad for being the devil's advocate, but I think that in its current form the article is going to attract criticism. We have to find something to make this article acceptable to everybody, according to wikipedia rules. Dpotop 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW: May I ask why you want to have a list including both well-recognized states and states claiming sovereignty? Deciding when some state enters the list will always be difficult. Dpotop 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

no, i do not agree, it is easy, just use objective rules. for example, the three conditions from Switzerland and USA or the four conditions from Montevideo, the last is what this article uses, it says so right in the introduction of the article. Then find the sources to back it up, and that is all, the argument is over Pernambuco 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

BTW2: If you really want to keep this list, rename it into "List of states that are sovereign or claim sovereignty", and then it's OK. Dpotop 11:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it might not be such a bad idea to rename the article to avoid confusion, but I'm still convinced that the "de facto 7" can objectively be established to posses factual sovereignity.

I saw that you are convinced, and there are many like you. But there are many against (me, on Transnistria), and there are no reliable sources stating that the 7 are sovereign. Renaming the list would simplify things for everybody. Dpotop 15:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

How about simply "list of states"? With the introduction roughly as it is now, there would be no confusion as to what states are recognised and what states are not recognised.sephia karta 22:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the introduction must change, as we saw that Montevideo cannot serve as an inclusion criterion (not enough sources). Second, the definition given to state on wikipedia includes sovereignty. So, I think that just saying "list of states" is not OK. BTW, I think I found the best criterion for organizing this list: The relationship with the UN states. How many states are not in the UN but claim sovereignty? Few, I guess. Dpotop 09:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

But I don't understand why this convention should be used as a criterion for inclusion in the list. Looks like an original research to me. Grandmaster 11:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Grandmaster. Most of the countries which face separatist problems are not signatories to that convention. It is not an universal agreement and hence cannot be used as an universal criterion.--Kober 12:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

You don't understand. Wikipedia is not bound by international law. Read my answers to Grandmaster several lines above. Dpotop 13:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that wikipedia is not bound by international law, but why exactly this particular convention, signed by 19 American states in 1933, was selected as a criterion? Who says that sovereignty of a state should be defined by this convention? It's OR. Grandmaster 13:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

On Wikipedia you can use any convention as long as you find reputable sources to document its use. So, the question is not "Why Montevideo?", but "Do you have sources explicitly saying that states X and Y satisfy the conditions of Montevideo?". Dpotop 14:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

the sources are on this page, there are five of them, including ¨Cambridge University¨ so this is all that is needed, it satisifies the conditions for inclusion Pernambuco 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

To Dpotop, I'm not sure I understand your point. This is meant to be a "list of sovereign states," but it defines sovereign state on the basis of Montevideo/declarative theory of statehood. But there's no clear reason why this should be our definition for the purpose of this page. We could alternately base it on the constitutive theory (probably a bad idea), or perhaps only list countries that more or less meet both the declarative and constitutive theories. That being said, I would agree that the declarative theory seems like the better way to go, if we are to choose, and we ought to be clear on what the declarative theory precisely means, and whether things like Transdnistria and South Ossetia really qualify. To Pernambuco: various sources have been listed. Nobody has yet cited what they actually say about the question at hand. The sources seem largely to be ones on political science, rather than international law, at any rate, so the extent to which, even if they did weigh in on this specific question, they should be considered reliable remains open to doubt. But, in any event, simply listing a bunch of titles, without any explanation of what they actually say, cannot possibly resolve a debate. john k 18:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Is there any way we can try to make some distinctions here? There's the 192 UN member states and the Holy See, which most everyone agrees are sovereign. There used to be more non-member states that everyone would agree on, too. Switzerland, for instance, wasn't a member until 2002. The Germanies didn't join until 1973, and the Koreas until 1991. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not a member between 1992 and 2000, but at present, there don't seem to be any clearly recognized sovereign states, besides the Holy See/Vatican City, that are not UN members. It's also worth noting that there have also been clearly non-sovereign states that have been UN members - India was a member from 1945, for instance, as were Ukraine and Belarus, but not the other former Soviet Republics. But at present, the UN membership list seems to more or less adequately mirror the list of states that everyone considers to be sovereign. The only problematic entity on the list, I think, would be Somalia, whose de jure government is almost entirely powerless.

I would suggest that the ROC falls into a similar situation with some of these other places that were, usually for political reasons, not UN member states, but nevertheless were generally considered to be sovereign. The ROC not only has complete physical control over the island of Taiwan, but it has done so in a completely stable manner for nearly the last 60 years. It used to be recognized by many more countries than it now is, and was once a UN member state. What changed was not so much its status, but the UN's desire to include the PRC. The ROC is clearly in a much stronger position, state-wise, than any of the other de facto states we are discussing.

Taiwan was never a member of the United Nations. The "Republic of China" in its position as the recognized legal government of China, was a member of the United Nations. At the same time it must be remembered that there are no international legal documents which can show that the territorial sovereignty of "Formosa and the Pescadores" has ever been transferred to the ROC. Hence, without its own territory, the ROC cannot be considered a sovereign nation, and should be removed from the list. Hmortar 09:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Palestine and Western Sahara are rather awkward entities. They're currently not listed, but both are recognized by many other countries, and the latter, at least, controls some of the territory it claims. Palestine also kind of controls territory, but that's actually a lot more complicated, in that the PA is only indirectly connected to the PLO, and it is the latter that is the internationally recognized organization of the Palestinian State, or something. But it might make sense to list these entities in a separate section of the list.

The other group of states, the de facto states that are completely, or, in the case of North Cyprus, almost completely, unrecognized, are more problematic. North Cyprus, which has existed for decades, and is recognized by Turkey, might be a somewhat stronger case. So might Somaliland, which seems to not only be functional, but to have developed independently of outside agents. I would suggest that these probably more or less qualify under Montevideo. But even for these, I'd suggest a separate section would be best.

The ones in the former Soviet Union seem to be pretty clearly the most dubious of all. The fact that Armenia doesn't recognize Nagorno-Karabakh, and that Russia doesn't recognize Transnistria, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, seems especially problematic. These states are not entities which, on their own, control the territory they claim. They are states that are propped up by outside armies from countries that don't even recognize them. More broadly, and this applies to North Cyprus, too, I think the fact that these are states propped up by outside militaries makes their sovereign status all the more dubious. I've asked this before, and never gotten a proper answer, but if this were the 80s would you all be advocating listing Bophuthatswana and so forth, without comment, in the lists of sovereign states? I think that would be deeply responsible, and I think more or less the same thing applies here. I'm not opposed to listing them on this page, but I am opposed to listing them, without comment, alongside the rest of the list. Doing this is not a stable thing which the list has always done. It is something which has happened relatively recently. I would prefer discussing the dubious cases in their own sections. At a minimum, there should be footnotes, and possibly a different type face. john k 19:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC) just a minor correction john k the UN member state China is always there, it's not a chang of member ship, but a change of representation of China.

I think I understand your concerns, let me share some of my thoughts.

The SADR and Palestine

Unless something has changed, the SADR is actually currently included, exactly because it does control some parts of the Western Sahara. The State of Palestine is not included, because the Palestine Authorities are a different entity, they do not currently claim independence. Palestinian statehood is one of the ingredients of the conflict and there is talk from time to time about declaring the Palestinian State. If the PA were the Palestinian State, there would obviously be no need for that. The Palestinian State as it was declared in the Eighties is, I would say (without too much knowledge about the issue), an empty legal construct devoid of factual control over any people or territories and does thus not meet the criteria of the Montevideo Convention.

Independent South-African homelands

I've thought about these and I think would actually have included these if they still existed. If you read the article about the Transkei, it sais that between 1978 and 1980 its ties with South Africa had actually been severed over a territorial dispute and that it withdrew (or at least announced to) from a non-recognition pact. Despite the obvious asymmetry in power, this sounds like the mutual dealings of two states. Transkei and the other homelands that had officially been independent (not all had) might in practice have been very dependent on South Africa, but how much more so than San Marino is on Italy?

The ROC

I agree with you that the ROC is by far the most powerful out of the unrecognised states, but when you say that its sovereignity is recognised by most states, you must be referring to its factual sovereignity, because de jure Taiwan is of course considered to be part of the PRC. But isn't e.g. Somaliland in practice recognised as being just as factually sovereign? If the US want something done in Somaliland, are they not forced to deal with Somaliland state authorities?

Be careful with your wording. The US, the UK, and Japan ackowledge/respect/take note of the PRC position that Taiwan is part of China, but they do not recognize this position. So the US, UK, and Japan are unwilling to say what Taiwan is exactly is or part of at this time. Saying that Taiwan is considered de jure part of the PRC is as ludicrous as saying that the PRC wasn't a sovereign state from 1949-1971 because most governments didn't recognize the PRC during that time. Allentchang 16:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is a big difference between "ackowledge/respect/take note of a position" and "recognizing that position as the representing the true legal and political reality." After all, there are no international legal documents which can show that the territorial sovereignty of "Formosa and the Pescadores" has ever been transferred to any entity called "China." Hmortar 09:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The ex-Soviet 4

While I wouldn't say that Russian state support was essential to Abkhazia's independence and I don't know about the other 3, but even they do depend militarily on their larger neighbours, isn't this in fact a rather common phenomenon the world over? Don't South Korea and Kuweit owe their independence to the USA? North Korea its independence to the PRC? Bangladesh its independence to India? Isn't Somalia completely dependent on Ethiopia, Afghanistan and Iraq on the USA? East Timor on the UN? (Etc.)

Representation in the list

It is currently already the case that all entries are grouped according to recognition and that unrecognised states are thus highlighted at the beginning of the article. I think footnotes to explain this and that are fine, and I am not opposed to generally unrecognised states being italicised, as long as they are treated alike. We should also mention incomplete recognition amongst UN members (for one, I believe the two Korea's don't recognise each other, and of course the PRC, Israel and Cyprus are not recognised by each and every country). sephia karta 21:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I am just calling your attention to the question of sephia karta just before this section. The key point is that this list and the "editor's common sense" criteria for inclusion qualify as original research, because they are not backed by sources. Dpotop 22:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

yes, but deal with each country one by one, and find sources for each, and in the case of Transnistria, this is documented, someone posted already five sources to supply the information and some of them are scientific (¨Cambridge University¨ and that kind) so that solved it for me Pernambuco 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

(Prior comment deleted) See below. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a sovereignty-ascribing blog.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

i agree with Vecrumbas,and the problem is that what is sovereignty, it looks like some people here are trying to say that sovereignty is only what the Montevideo convention says it is, but it is not, and then it becomes a mess to define it, and then another argument is: sovereignty is only after 100 countries recognize it, but this is also wrong, so please, one simple question: what is sovereignty? Pernambuco 14:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

Why South Ossetia and Abkhazia and not North Ossetia and Chechnya?

I thought last year we were close to settling. When did the proseparatist POV prevail? And why now there is not even a footnote next to Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, Transnistria etc. clarifying their de-facto status?

And since the discussion is still going on, can somebody tell me why South Ossetia is included and North Ossetia is not? Seems to me Montevideo applies to them equally well. Or why aren't US states included for that matter (my one-year-old question)? Which part of the Montevideo convention does not apply? (PaC 04:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC))

The issue is that pro-separatists, whether for good or bad, are pushing that the separatist states meet the 4th Montevideo criteria and are therefore sovereign, merely unrecognized. Having spent some considerable time Wikidebating, not to mention real money on reputable sources, the whole debate here over whether Montevideo applies and to whom we ascribe sovereignty qualifies as original research of the highest order. Blog? Yes. Encyclopedia? No.

     By the debate here, there are African warlords who, if they've set up any sort of governing authority, could qualify as sovereign and merely unrecognized as soon as they enter into any agreement with a legitimate recognized power. An example of a common argument is that the PMR/Transnistria making any sort of agreement with Moldova, the Ukraine, etc. renders it [and people like to throw in "de facto" here and that "de jure" is immaterial] sovereign.

     (And let's not start up with the PMR being democratic: a "state" which produces lists of who voted for whom to prove people voted and that it is therefore a democracy.)

     The POV is that such a thing as "de facto sovereign" exists. It exists only as an oxymoron. The associated equivalent oxymoron is "unrecognized country."

     There are only two entities which we are in a position to list as an encyclopedia, and those are:

1. States which are internationally recognized (and therefore sovereign, and therefore States (capital "S") = countries)
2. Everything else, that is, "Territories whose sovereignty is not internationally recognized." They are not "S"tates whose sovereignty is not recognized, =oxymoron. They are not "s"tates whose sovereignty is not recognized, =oxymoron. (Small "s" properly used to indicate entity within some sort of larger fererated State.) They are not "unrecognized countries" =oxymoron.

     Plain and simple.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Pēters. During last year discussion most of us agreed that Montevideo criteria are extremely vague (especially the 4th one). Everybody here interprets it the way she/he wants. The fact that de-facto states sign some international agreements, may seem to some strong enough evidence that these states "enter into relations with the other states", but not to others. North Ossetia can sign agreements as well as South Ossetia (in fact they are signing agreements with each other all the time), why don't we call it a sovereign state as well? Who says that "signing agreements" and "entering into relations" are the same thing?

Or how does this interpretation of the 4th criteria sound:

Entering into relations with other states at the very least should assume recognition from these other states, and since Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, PMR etc., are not recognized by any state, they automatically lack the "capacity to enter into relations with the other states", and therefore fail to satisfy the 4th criteria.

My point is that this debate is in essence about the interpretation of the inherently ambiguous Montevideo criteria, and it is not what Wikipedia articles should be doing - passing judgment on contraversial issues. Changing the criteria to something more clear, factual, and verifiable (like international recognition) will only contribute to the quality of the article. (PaC 15:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC))

Someone told me that this discussion is flaring up again, so here I am. The danger is that international recognition is a sufficient, but not necessary criterion to determine the existence of a sovereign state. Otherwise, we should state that the PRC was a unrecognized state or non-soverign state from 1949 to 1971 because it was not recognized by a majority of countries in the world and it was not a UN member during that time. We could say that the United States was not a soveriegn state in the early 1800's because the British diplomatically harassed those who tried to cozy up with the fledging American republic. This demonstrates the existence of a temporal POV: that is, a POV that changes with respect to time. What we can do is this: for each entity with controversial soveriegnty, we include a footnote, which says "sovereignty disputed: see so and so article for the different points of view." We should also sample various non-governmental world atlases for the purpose of verification in order to minimize the possibility of political agenda. Allentchang 16:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Er, the PRC had at least as much recognition in the 50s and 60s as the ROC has now, and I don't think anybody is suggesting we remove the ROC. UN membership is certainly irrelevant - nobody would deny that Switzerland was sovereign before 2002, for instance. As to the United States, that's ridiculous - the United States had diplomatic recognition of some sort from most European states starting in 1783. Including, er, the British, who, so far as I'm aware, never made any effort to prevent other states from having diplomatic recognition from them. At any rate, the PRC, which had effective control over the whole of mainland China, is hardly comparable to some dubious entity like South Ossetia or Transnistria, the latter of which, at least, apparently can't even issue its own passports. Of the de facto states, North Cyprus and Somaliland seem like they should potentially be mentioned. The rest seem highly problematic. john k 17:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

In this discussion, I agree with you. But I would go farther and push for the pure and simple deletion of this article. Why? Because the criteria for including states in it is either subjective and/or based on WO:OR (Montevideo, etc), or corresponds to some other clearly-defined notion, such as UN membership, recognition, etc. Ask yourselves this question: What states would you have in this list, and which criterion not involving original research allows their inclusion. Dpotop 19:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Allentchang's "for each entity with controversial soveriegnty, we include a footnote"--this is the entire problem, as everything quickly degenerates into Montevideo Number 4. The only footnoting that should be introduced is where a country is, say, a member of the U.N. (but not recognized by one or several countries) and/or recognized as de jure sovereign by at least, say, 100 (easy number) other countries (and again, not by just several). What we have now is people insisting that "countries" recognized by absolutely NO ONE are "sovereign." Come now, isn't that just a bit ridiculous for an encyclopedia? (Please, I don't want to hear that Pēters is trodding on the democratic aspirations of XY&Z!)

    With North Cyprus, I have not followed that closely, though as I understand it, there is only diplomatic recognition by Turkey. Doesn't meet the 100 watermark, goes on the "Territories whose sovereignty is not recognized" with an asterisk that Turkey does recognize it.

    With Taiwan (ROC), it certainly falls far, far short of the 100 watermark and would also come under "Territories whose sovereignty is not recognized" with an asterisk of the 30 or so that do (still) recognize it, the many more (including the U.S.) who "switched" recognition from the ROC to the PRC (for the sake of completeness if we prefer, to capture the "temporal" nature of recognition). 149 (or whatever the current count is) "back doors" to facilitate economic trade, etc. with an unrecognized entity do not sovereignty make. Sovereignty means everyone uses the front door.

    If and only if we follow a strict definition of sovereignty does a list of "Territories whose sovereignty is not recognized" become meaningful, useful, and NPOV informative (which also requires leaving out all the "sovereign according to Montevideo" conjecture). And even if it means the PRC was an "unrecognized territory" from 1941 to 1971/79. Size is irrelevant.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Whatever the de jure status of the ROC, most countries in the world recognize it as a de facto sovereign state, and often have quasi-relations with it. And it has orders of magnitude more recognition than North Cyprus or the others. It seems to me that this list should include UN members, Vatican City, and the ROC, with the last footnoted. At any rate, recognition should not be sufficient in and of itself - Palestine is recognized by many countries, but is not a de facto state. A state should be both more or less de facto and more or less de jure to qualify. The whole thing is, at any rate, a total mess. I think the definition under customary international law (i.e. Montevideo) is not necessarily a bad way to go, but we ought to be fairly conservative about it, particularly with states that don't have any international recognition. ROC doesn't fall into that category - it clearly meets Montevideo, and also has moderate international recognition. It's in a different category from the others, and it seems to me that we ought to be able to devise criteria that will give us the list that is most commonly given when people make such lists. That list is, pretty clearly, the UN members+Vatican City+ROC, and we should figure out how to get to that. john k 22:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Why wouldn't you have a nice article discussing sovereignty, with the various degrees of recognition/sovereignty linking to the actual lists of countries? Indeed, for UN countries there's no problem, and most countries are there. Then, you have to make special discussions for ROC, Northern Cyprus, Transnistria, etc. This way, the article is shorter, and clearer. Dpotop 13:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Define "Sovereignty"

This page is called "List of sovereign states" so back to the most basics: what is sovereignty? Is there somewhere in a scientific book of academics or international law which defines clearly when a government can be considered sovereign over the land and when a government can not be considered sovereign...... find this reference, that will settle all these arguments Pernambuco 14:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

This discussion seems to finally converge. However, I have to point that once we decide what Sovereignty is, we need sources for each state in the list, stating that the state is sovereign (otherwise, it's OR). Dpotop 15:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, for God's sake, this is becoming ridiculous. john k 15:40, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you, please, be more specific? Dpotop 08:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no scientific book, and there are plenty of academics who are even more POV than the POV'ers here, so that doesn't work unless everyone agrees if there is any academic source that says a territory is NOT sovereign, then it isn't. Period. Not, here, I found one in a hundred that says yes, we should trust this guy!

     Anything that involves "agreeing" on what makes a (governing authority + territory) sovereign is doomed to failure after being hijacked by the pro-separatist sovereignty pushers.

     However, taking a cue from the pro-separatists, who are trying to make the empirical case for sovereignty (mainly through a combination of quoting Montevideo sprinkled with a good dose of original research)... let's just make it entirely empirical: a table of all countries recognized by all other countries and a total for each (recognizes X #, recognized by Y#). Now, as tedious as that would be, it could also be interesting and useful if done well.

     The article could be something simple, like, Internationally recognized countries and territories--with no mention or debate of sovereignty or whether some territory qualifies as a country (which is a sovereignty debate just using different words).  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• Note I said "countries and territories," there would be NO mention of either "country" or "territory" in the article; for this to work, only the name of the de facto/de jure governing authority can be used.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"hijacked by the pro-separatist sovereignty pushers" ??!?! = derogatory language to define other wiki-pedia editors. You do not need to do this, this is not Usenet, it can be solved without disqualifying the opinions that others have. Me, I am 100 % neutral, but I respect the right that other people have to try to build a new country if thats what they want Pernambuco 01:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

Well, you see, Vercrumba vs. Pernambuco is exactly why the Founding Fathers of Wikipedia did not accept the scientific method (the "empirical" in Vercrumba's edit) and original research as a basis for article writing. We are not supposed to write here what appears to be common sense to us (to you, for instance, South Ossetia seems to be sovereign). Instead, we should write what is reported in reputable sources, without concluding ourselves. For instance, "South Ossetia participating in peace talks implies International relations implies Montevideo implies Sovereignty" is such an original research. Dpotop 08:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Pernambuco, if you prefer: "Wiki editors who are proposing based on POV original research that separatist states, particularly in the so-called 'frozen conflict' zone are sovereign."

     Regarding your statement: I respect the right that other people have to try to build a new country if thats what they want -- with respect to the PMR, for example, this would be original research concluding that the PMR referenda, etc. are legitimate votes under a legitimate authority expressing a legitimate free will. As the PMR has produced election records of who voted and for whom to "prove" they are a democracy ("Look, we can show you all the people who voted!"), there can be no assumption of free will. Therefore, your "respecting" the will of the inhabitants of the Transnistrian territory to "build a country" is entirely your own POV regarding the situation there and is not objective. Thus, your supporting the inclusion of commentary supportive of any conclusion that the PMR is sovereign is your POV only.

     Only by rigorously noting what authority recognizes what authority will the "sovereignty" list approach anything that is useful as opposed to a pitched battle that provides absolutely no objective information to the reader.

     As compared to debating the applicability of Montevideo, the answer to "who (country/authority) recognizes the PMR as the legitimate authority over the Transnistrian territory?" is perfectly neutral. If you mark the "check-box" that South Ossetia recognizes the PMR (I'm assuming they do given their coffee klutch in Moscow of not that long ago, we would need a reference), then that is non-POV factual.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

• I should note that my use of "empirical" was to make the point to the Montevideo empiricists that if they wanted to quote facts, I could present them with a set of facts whose use and interpretation is non-POV. My personal opinion is that the Montevideo empiricists supporting the viewpoint that certain separatist states are sovereign whether they are internationally recognized or not will never agree to a simple table of who recognizes whom. Checkboxes that clearly indicate the PMR is only mutually recognized within a small set of separatist states is a far cry from "According to the Montevideo criteria of ...insert full list here... the PMR meets the conditions for sovereignty."
• So, Pernambuco, factual checklist or (POV) original research quoting of sources "proving" the PMR is sovereign? Which do you advocate as being the more objective?  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps not enough coffee yet when I wrote the above last question, apologies to Pernambuco for putting you on the spot(!)... but, seriously, I think the only thing we can advocate as informative and non-POV is a simple checklist; we've already proven in the very need to "take sides" that the issue of ascribing "sovereignty" is devisive and, in any event, even if we all agreed, we would still be resolving it through original research, which, of course, runs counter to Wikipedia policy.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

o.k. that is fine, it was not really a problem, you dont put me on the spot. all I wanted was a civilized tone of voice, not the disqualification of others that is on Usenet all the time, please dont bring that here, that was all . Pernambuco 19:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

• I look on Usenet only when someone sends me something of interest; it's a good reminder of what real intellectual anarchy is like. :-)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 19:31, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with the need to stick to facts. By including "Five states, neither UN members nor recognised by any states that are, but sovereign according to article 1 of the Montevideo Convention, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Somaliland, South Ossetia and Transnistria" the editors are actually misleading the readers by passing their own interpretations of ambiguous criteria as facts. I also agree with suggestions of getting rid of the article's present approach and substituting it with a one based on facts instead of ambiguous, open-to-interpretation, and questionable criteria. Or even splitting it in several articles. (BTW, how does that get accomplished? Voting?) PaC 02:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that voting is not the best solution on this article, due to the predictable intervention of all political groups involved in nationalist/separatist claims. Two solutions seem better:

1. Wait that the main editors involved reach a common position on the matter. This may take a lot of time, because some editors are not checking all articles at all times (and some only react to changes to the article itself).
2. Moving through the dispute-solving process.

I tend to prefer the first variant, but it can take an unbound amont of time, with other editors and trolls intervening in the process. Dpotop 14:06, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the best would be to go ahead and create a table of Mutually recognized countries and territories, which is as NPOV a title and organization as I can think of since International recognition of countries and territories will undoubtedly lead to wailing and gnashing of teeth that "inter" + "national" does not apply to unrecognized territorial entities. We should be able to look up who recognizes whom with a minimum amount of dispute. Meanwhile, the debate on Montevideo can continue...  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

We can't have false statements in the article

As I mentioned above "Five states, neither UN members nor recognised by any states that are, but sovereign according to article 1 of the Montevideo Convention, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Somaliland, South Ossetia and Transnistria" is a false statement. As this whole discussion shows, this is just an interpretation of some of the editors of the ambiguous criteria. While the discussion on Montevideo is going on I propose to at least fix it with some wording like "sovereign according to some interpretations of article 1..." This sounds a bit weaselish, and should be just a temporary fix, but it is clearly closer to facts than the current version. The current one is just plain false. We cannot have it. I do not want to get in revert wars, and I'd like to hear other editors opinions about this. (PaC 22:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC))

Alternatively, (and clearly preferred by me) we can get rid of this statement and exclude these entities from the list (again, until a better solution is found). I'd like to take some action soon, so please voice your opinion. (PaC)

• Even the most ardent proponents of sovereignty for the frozen conflict zones et al. (must) quote specific examples which can be interpreted as satisfying the 4th Montevideo criterion (ability to conduct foreign relations). Or they quote "sources" (not legitimate governments recognizing these regimes as also legitimate) that similarly quote specific examples which can be interpreted as satisfying.... At best, it's original research. Then comes the "look at the facts, they are indisputable" exhortation, which, of course, is not actually looking at facts, but trying to draw people into the same "objective" original research conclusion. The Earth is flat according to "some interpretations" as well.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

  I would say that Somaliland probably qualifies under Montevideo. The rest are pretty dubious. I agree with some kind of fix so as to not say that these countries definitely qualify under Montevideo. john k 05:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a source for Somaliland being sovereign? Dpotop 06:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

By way of a source are we talkign about the 4th test? I assume the first three are self evident/easy to source? I would say that Somaliland's statmetns to the effect that they woudl rejoin the rest of the country when/if it gets a stable government again would count as entering into some sort of forgin relation, and be easy to source. But then again some may disagree. Dalf | Talk 08:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is what I think:

1. Concluding that some state satisfies Montevideo point (4) because some source says the state has some specific economic/political foreign relation is WP:SYNT.
2. Concluding that some state is sovereign because you somehow concluded that it satisfies the 4 points of Montevideo is WP:SYNT.

By source I mean a text not originating on Wikipedia or the state in question and explicitly stating that Somaliland is sovereign, or that it satisfies the 4 Montevideo points.

It is weird to have here on Wikipedia states classed as "sovereign" while no source considers them as such (outside their own propaganda services). For Transnistria (the case I know best), not even foreign NGOs. Somaliland is a bit different (there are official petitions on the British government to grant them recognition) but still, there is no source saying explicitly that Somaliland is sovereign.

Thus, this entire article qualifies as a nice bit of pro-independence political activism, not NPOV. Dpotop 09:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I can agree with that if only because the (4) point in the test is ambiguous enough that it could be argumed, and so you are right and some sort of source for it woudl be neded. I disagree that we need a single source stating that all 4 tests are meet. I think individual sources for each one shoudl be sufficent so long as the sources themselves are actually, without argument, supporting the cleam that the test is passed. I would not object to moving the 5 items down to the list of "specifically not included" though I think they shoudl still be mentioned in that group (to avoid someone simply thinking we overlooked them). Dalf | Talk 00:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

• To Dalf's question: whether "self-evident/easy to source" or "not intuitively obvious/requires specific sources," building the case that some regime satisfies Montevideo on any of the four criteria is WP:OR/WP:SYNT. That is why Montevideo should not even be mentioned/used here (or anywhere, for that matter) to postulate a regime is sovereign.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I took a look back at the article and it's worse than I recall: it states the PMR et al. can (i.e., should) be considered sovereign according to just the first Montevideo criterion alone.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well what can I say, I disagree on this and on teh applicability of WP:OR/WP:SYNT, with the exception that I just listed above in response to Dpotop. The only way we can possibly keep with NPOV is to adopt some test that we ourselvs have not made up, though I do agree that we shoudl be applying the Montevideo criterion ourselves (as that woudl be OR) but shoudl be finding sources for them. If we can find sources for them then I do not see hwo using it is bad. The trick is the 4th test which is ambiguous enough as to make the whole thign hard to use in pratice if we limit ourselves to sourcing each application. Dalf | Talk 00:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

• Well, "but should be finding sources for them. If we can find sources for them then I do not see hwo using it is bad." is the problem, because people will drag out sources as POV as themselves (e.g., BHHRG and Mark Almond) and cite them as reputable and push twice as hard now thay they have an "objective" (NOT!) reference. Still all WP:OR/WP:SYNT, unfortunately.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Well I think, for at least the two of the 5 that I am farmilliar with, that we could find sources we would all agree on for everythign but (4). Four is a problem though and the only thing I think we could agree on would be if htey had exchanged ambasadors with country or somethign like that (which is I suppose reconigition). Does Transnistria have any sort of offical relations with Russia? With the Russian milatary? So I still disagree with the notion that it is automaticaly OR/SYNTH regardles of what the sources are and the specifics of the case. That said they should probably be dis-included. Dalf | Talk 01:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with PaC, claiming that not-recognized states are sovereign is a false statment. We can have a separate list of not-recognized states, but in this list we should include only recongnized countries.--MariusM 12:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems everybody so far agrees that this is a false statement and most believe that using Montevideo criteria here is wrong. Anybody with an opposite opinion care to comment? (PaC 04:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC))

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to follow the declarative theory of statehood, which appears to be more widely held than the constitutive theory. We just need to be careful about it, and about conducting OR. john k 07:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't disagree with that, but maybe the criteria can be specified more precisely than it is done in Montevideo. Otherwise, it will be always open to interpretation. I suspect that Montevideo criteria were deliberately made vague, to allow the powers to interpret them as they see fit. For example, one might say that if the state is not recognized by any other state, then by definition it cannot "enter into relations with other states". This argument equates Montevideo with recognition criteria, don't you think? I think it would be better if we came up with (may be original) but clear and verifiable criteria and then created a list of states, rather then using Montevideo and come up with our own original interpretations of it. (PaC 15:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC))

Alas, original criteria are, again WP:OR. I still like my idea, tedious as it may be, simply of who recognizes whom. At least the frozen conflict zone proponents could have their mutual recognitions factually noted in a non-POV manner, even if they have no recognition by any widely acknowledged de jure power.
     And speaking of which, I see that the most recent changes clarifying de jure recognition regarding the separatist republics' territories has been reverted, pushing the sovereignty POV once again.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, can somebody revert those? I've already done it twice. These people just keep reverting without any discussion. I am not sure how to deal with that. The de jure status of these entities is not even disputable.(PaC)

I am not sure I can see how Pēters' idea would work. Do you envision a list of states and next to each state we least the countries that recognize this state? (PaC)

It would essentially be a matrix where each country/territory is a row & column (sort of like those distance tables you find in maps). It would need a bit of work to make it Wiki-editable, but I believe it's possible--and it does not require us to establish any criteria. I personally believe that creating any sort of criteria will run into the same kinds of problems as Montevideo. After all, as we've seen, people even come in and revert that, for example, Transnistria is de jure part of Moldova (and same for all the rest), something which is not even factually disputable. I guess what I'm saying is, noble sentiment doomed to fail--although, please, don't let me disuade you, it could just be my skepticism from having dealt with the pro-separatist contingent. We already have articles with unambiguous criteria (U.N. members, the Vatican, and noting that Taiwan swapped recognition/non-recognition with the People's Republic of China).

To add value, the only choices for this article are to (painfully) list who recognizes whom (there's probably some way to "fold" into far fewer columns where recognitions are common), or to speculate on who is sovereign who is not recognized--which is an oxymoron.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

In addition I disagree that original criteria are WP:OR. Picking the criteria is not research. It's a question of choice. Editors make choices all the time. It is certainly less WP:OR than interpreting ambiguous criteria. (PaC 23:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC))

Sorry for not having time to look here recently. You will find that it may not be so easy to create a table cross-referencing who recognises whom, because you would first need to know what constitutes recognition. This may seem trivial, but I can assure you I honestly don't know. Is it legislation passed explicitly stating this? This may be what actually happens sometimes, but it could be the case just as well that Zambia never officially declared it now considers Tuvalu sovereign. Many countries exchange embassies but then again many don't. You may then look at lower level diplomatic missions, but then, Nagorno Karabakh will have a mission to Armenia, so that won't work. In one of the Korea related articles it sais that the two states have not to date recognised each other but the statement is tagged as unsourced. I submit that just as well that you may claim that efforts to show that a country does satisfy point 4 of Montevideo constitute OR, it constitutes OR to propose (without sources) that this point 4 means anything but the straightforward. Why should diplomatic relations mean anything different from exchanging diplomats unless there are sources to the contrary? It can't possibly mean recognition as this is explicitly ruled out in Montevideo.

A list based on recogniton is useless because it will mirror the UN members list. There is a very common practice in the science of international law and politics where the sovereignity is unrelated to recognition and solely concerns the de facto existence of states. This is the list for that sovereignity.

I diagree. I believe the frozen conflict zone territories recognize each other. The very point of having a table is that such data would be factually reflected--with no POV'ing on the legitimacy or sovereignty of the regime.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I agree that would be useful. But it would be the content of another article. sephia karta 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

For those of you that are so keen to see Somaliland, Abkhazia and the likes go, but do want to include the ROC: on what objective basis? I take offence at the infuriatingly lazy thinking that labels me a pro-seperatist sovereignity pusher or anything similar. Seperatism is a legimate political aspiration without which most of the worlds states including among many many other former colonies the United States would not exist today. But that is not at all relevant to this article. The desirability of the existance of any of these states or goverments is not the issue at stake here. I am commited here to the fact that say Somaliland is just as real a state as Taiwan, and that they are both just as real states for their inhabitants (the only people really concerned) as is say the aforementioned Zambia.

Again, the table would show the ROC is not recognized where Taiwan and the People's Republic of China "swapped" had their recognition/non-recognition status by a recognizing state, for example, the U.S. (I believe it was in 1974 or thereabouts?). Plain and simple.

Good. sephia karta 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, separatism as a legitimate political aspiration is one thing; taking us all on the leap that separtist "states" are therefore expressing legitimate political aspirations (and can be regarded as legitimate to some degree) is WP:OR at best.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not say that these states' existence is legitimate (i.e. whether they are de jure sovereign), this is a matter of juridical opinion: the states themselves thinks so, most of the rest of the world does not think so. sephia karta 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The offence you take would be from me. I can assure you it was not intended as an offence, but as a remark on the current status of the article. And I assure you I respect the aspiration to freedom of those people. However, as you note yourself, all these aspirations are only relevant here if reputable sources can be found on the matter. Also, there's a difference between saying that "Transnistria wants independence" and "Transnistria is a sovereign state". I am sure we can find sources on the first statement (probably listed at Transnistria). However, I have not yet seen a source stating that Transnistria is sovereign. Dpotop 10:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess exactly that is what I've been trying to argue all along: there is no difference between independence and the sort of sovereignty used in this article. I appreciate the fact that this may not be sufficiently clear at the present moment, and the article's title and introduction can b modified to the effect that it becomes clear, but if people want a list based on another definition of sovereignty, another article should be created for that.

And I apologise for my harsh reaction to your statement, I guess I infeliciously took it more to heart than I should have. sephia karta 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, as it seems we are going nowhere, I propose the following:

A qualified list of states alledged to be sovereign in a table. Everything that is to be said about the sovereignity of a specific state will be. The form of the beast could be a table, a list, a grouped list, anything. sephia karta 00:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Sephia karta, the objective basis is that ROC is recognized by many states and Abkhazia by none. I do not think we should be completely discarding recognition from the criteria. This would create a clear bias of one approach vs the other. The problem of course is when the criteria start contradicting each other, but at least,despite your legitimate concerns, recognition is a much more verifiable criterion than ambiguously stated Montevideo. For the purpose of making this list Montevideo is completely useless, because everyone interprets it as she/he wants.

I'll go for the list of allegedly sovereign if we fix rules fro inclusion that do not include WP:OR or WP:SYNT. I mean, for a state to be included, some source should explicitly claim that the state is sovereign. Otherwise, who alleges sovereigny? We, the users? Dpotop 10:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Any allegation is WP:OR if there is no official recognition by anyone. "Wikipedia editors based on XYZ allege that South Ossetia is sovereign" doesn't fly.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the OR if we include South Ossetia with a link to a statement passed by their parliament, e.g. sephia karta 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Montevideo is not ambiguously stated. Point out the ambiguousness, please. sephia karta 11:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

In addition, I do not think we should be afraid that the list will mirror the UN members list. First of all they would not be identical. Second, it is not our fault that most of the sovereign states decided to join UN. It's just a coincidence, I do not see a problem here.(PaC 01:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

Why would you list all UN members here, and not simply link them as a list? Why do you complicate issues, when the only interest everybody sees in this article is to list the problem-states? Dpotop 10:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Most of the U.N. states can probabably be consolidated into some sort of mutual recognition block. The point is, for a table to be NPOV, it needs to list "everyone". Where the problem states are concerned, it's important to note which of those "recognize" each other and equally important to note that they are not recognized by anyone else.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not insist on recognition being the only criteria though. I do insist, however, that saying that the entities in question definitely qualify under Montevideo criteria is a false statement. You'd agree with that, wouldn't you? (PaC 01:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

And a single criterion at that...  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The status and history of the ROC and that of Abkhazia are so different that I don't see much of a consistency problem. The ROC was the recognized government of China before 1949, and after that, when the PRC got control of almost the whole of the territory of China, the ROC continued to be recognized as the legitimate government of China by a large percentage of countries for two decades thereafter. It has also been the undisputed de facto government of Taiwan (and Quemoy and Matsu) for the past five and a half decades. The change from being widely recognized to not all that widely recognized had nothing to do with any kind of de facto changes in the actual situation on the ground, but with political considerations of people wanting to deal with the PRC. And, of course, several countries still recognize the ROC. Abkhazia, on the other hand, has never been recognized by anybody in its fifteen year history. Abkhazia, Somaliland, and so forth are unrecognized separatist regimes. This is quite different from the ROC, whose relation to the PRC more closely resembles that between the two Germanies before Ostpolitik - each state claims to be the sole legitimate China, and states can only have diplomatic relations with one or the other. This is a weird situation, and quite distinct from that of the separatist areas. Another point worth noting is that while right now the UN members list is a good marker of sovereign states, treating it as though it is as a rule such is problematic. Switzerland didn't join until 2002. Kiribati, which became independent in 1979, didn't join until 1999. The Vatican City, of course, is still not a UN member. The current near congruity of the list of undisputed sovereign states with the list of UN members should not lead us to assume that this is a natural congruity that will always be around. john k 15:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

If we are simply being factual, then the ROC suffers as being not recognized by a majority of countries. It can have an annotation in the box saying when it lost recognition/recognition was transfered to the PRC, if that was the case. Sticking to plain recognition eliminates any special "sovereignty" cases, and this is a necessity—as otherwise everyone will clamor to line up for their "fair" share of "special case" sovereignty.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 19:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

On the continuum of sovereignty, it seems to me that we have pretty clearly UN Members...Vatican...ROC...North Cyprus...the others. I don't see why it is at all obvious, or why it would reduce dispute, to draw the line between the Vatican and the ROC, rather than between the ROC and North Cyprus. john k 23:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, "significant recognition" deciphered as "several countries" may allow for a clear cut. One country recognition is certainly potentially debatable, as this country may be simply an occupying force. (PaC 14:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

Reverts of de jure status

While we are discussing possible changes to the approach used by the article I added (next to the names of the unrecognized states) clarifications of their de jure status. These are facts. Nobody really disputes that, and it gives the reader quick idea about the de jure status of these entities. However, user User:Pernambuco keeps reverting these changes without any explanation or discussion. It seems he is trying to hide these facts from the reader (I do not know what it is if not blatant POV). Does anybody else think we should hide de jure status from the readers? If you do, please explain here why, before reverting. If you don't, help me deal with Pernambuco's disruptive reverts. (PaC 05:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

Welcome to the fun. There is no reason to hide what authority is recognized as de jure over a territory. And after all, Transnistrians do vote in the Moldovan elections, for example. (That would be that part of Moldova where they don't keep a record of who voted for whom.)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is "funny". Somehow the page got protected on the version, that nobody in these discussion pages even defends. There are hundreds of lines of discussion here, and nobody seems to disagree with these changes. How are we supposed to "resolve the dispute" if nobody really disputes. They simply reverted and requested protection. Does anybody have any suggestions on the matter? (PaC 19:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

the "de jure" notes are arbitrarily on 4 states. to be fair, one must list all diputes such as China, Somaliland, Cyprus. It then makes the whole page too political. there is enough discussion on the standard preamble. Ybgursey 19:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

If you think more "de jure" notes should be added, why don't you add it? Instead of reverting the ones I added. You seem not to deny the "de jure" status of these territories. Then what is the reason for your reverts? You just do not want the readers to see it?

And no, there is not "enough discussion on the standard preamble". Show me where this information is reflected in the preamble? Where can the reader see that Abkhazia is "de jure" part of Georgia? (PaC 21:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

In this edit of Mauco he reverted the mention of de jure status of unrecognized countries on the ground that changes were not discussed. Is amazing to see this as I see in this talk page a lot of discussions on this subject.--MariusM 21:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ybgursey, you force me to be rather blunt here. Don't you mean:

"To be fair, one must list all diputes such as China, Somaliland, Cyprus. It then makes the whole page too factual"?

 —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 21:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

facts are inthe reswpective texts. this is supposed to be an inclusive list, not a political forum on what is de jure or not. very least such things must be listed as footnotes. 71.235.97.40 22:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You may be misinterpreting here, it's not whether Transnistria, for example, is de jure, it's that de jure it is still considered part of Moldova. Being "political" is NOT indicating who the de jure authority is. And I have made a suggestion on how to make the list both inclusive and non-POV.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You are still cluttering the listings with such comments. Ybgursey 03:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I am supposed to be on a sort of a wikibreak, but I support Ybgursey, Pernambuco and the others (yes, there are others - see the history) who reverted the POV edits which Papa Carlos is pushing. This is a list. Keep it as a list. Don't make it political. If someone wants to find out more, just click the links. Meanwhile, the status of the Montevideo entities is very clear for anyone who can read. It is both in the intro and the footnotes, as someone pointed out. Enough, guys. Mauco 04:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Hold it. Mauco really thinks that "de jure" status of these territories is my POV?! Interesting. (PaC 14:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

How can a list like this be anything but political? john k 09:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

:) I could not have said it better. Indeed, this list *is* political, and it shouldn't. :) Dpotop 11:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

:( Uh ... I think that John K means to say that by its nature, it is already political no matter what we do. And that the only way to avoid that is to delete the list. All 3 of us appear to have different definitions of 'political', with John K being the most precise of us; taking the strict, legalistic dictionary definition. Still, if we concede that it is already political, I would argue that my statement still holds: let us not go overboard by making it even more polemic than it already is. There are plenty of explanations of these entities already, both in intro and in footnotes. That is more than enough for a list of this type. No one who reads it can be in doubt. - Mauco 13:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

No, this list does not need to be political. If you count "UN states" there is nothing political about it because there are reputable sources about it. If you count "States recognized by at least one UN state", it's not political, either. On the countrary, if you count "Sovereign states", it's political and POV, regardless of the criterion you choose. And that is because there are no reputable sources explicitly documenting sovereignty. Dpotop 21:46, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course it would be political to use any of these criteria, as they would include or exclude states, and this would have political meaning. Including only UN members or states with diplomatic relations with a majority of UN members would exclude the ROC, which has political implications. Using any of these criteria as a definition of "sovereign state" is clearly to take sides and have a POV. What we need to do is not to embrace any single definition of a sovereign state, but to be clear about why the various disputed states are disputed. How exactly we do that remains an open question, but I don't see how simply unilaterally adopting a definition that excludes Taiwan, or that includes Taiwan and North Cyprus but excludes Somaliland, et al, is going to help make this article NPOV. john k 16:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

People who keep saying that "there are plenty of explanations of these entities already" i keep asking the same question: Show me where this information is reflected in the article? Where can the reader see that Abkhazia is "de jure" part of Georgia? I am asking it again: Mauco, Ybgursey, Pernambuco and the mistical others, can you show me? (PaC 14:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

This is a list, not an article. You click on the link for more info. The Wikipedia principle. - Mauco 01:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You just cannot find excuses for your desire to hide the facts. First you say that this info is already in the article. Now you insist that three words next to the entity (e.g. "de jure part of Georgia") will somehow turn this list into an article. You know perfectly well that inclusion of these entities on the list is highly questionable and deliberately trying to hide even the traces of evidence from the reader. Anybody without a POV can see that the inclusion of these three words does not overbear the list at all and is a necessary clarification that provides a consise way for the reader to grasp a larger part of the real picture related to the sovereignty of these "states". (PaC 04:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC))

Table Strawman

Who recognizes whom sample

I just thought I'd post this as an example. I took the U.N. members list, defaulted all to recognizing each other (easier), added in a few non-members (like the Holy See, Palestine...), then adjusted Israel to indicate who does not recognize it. I've uploaded a small sampling of the spreadsheet.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I applaud your compiling this table and I think it can be a great asset, but I do have to ask: how do you actually know who recognises whom? Do you know whom North-Korea is recognised by? sephia karta 23:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe what Vercrumba did is the only NPOV thing that can be done if this article is to be NPOV. Dpotop 11:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There is, of course, a distinction to be made between having diplomatic relations with a country and recognizing it as a sovereign state. There is also a distinction to be made between not recognizing the ruling regime of a country, and not recognizing a country itself. For instance, many countries took a while to recognize the Bolshevik regime in Russia after 1917. But none of them ceased to recognize Russia as a country. They just didn't recognize any regime there. Afghanistan under the Taliban was a similar case. Almost no countries recognized the Taliban regime, but a few did (I believe it was just Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE). Others recognized the old Rabbani government that controlled a tiny fraction of the country, and still others did not recognize any government. But everyone recognized Afghanistan as being a de jure sovereign state. The situation in Somalia today is somewhat similar. The situation of China might be considered similar - just about everyone recognizes that a country "China" exists. But there is disagreement as to which regime represents that state - the ROC in Taipei, or the PRC in Beijing. We should be careful about these distinctions. john k 05:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Dpotop, that is not an answer to my question. john k, I agree. sephia karta 11:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

To john k, an authority is recognized as de jure or not. In the case of China, PRC is now the majority-recognized authority, the ROC is not, over Taiwan. Again, our mission here is not to determine who is "right" in the disagreement over who is the "appropriate" authority, it is to just report the facts. Basing an encyclopedia article about the sovereignty of states on wishful interpretations of Montevideo and declarative theories of statehood is a vast disservice to Wikipedia's readers. Who recognizes whose sovereignty is the only NPOV solution. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 23:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is this article promoting Russian POV?!!! (or are we back to where we were a year ago)

Inclusion of Abkhazia and South Ossetia in this list is a clear promotion of Russian POV. Neither of these entities is a sovereign state but rather is piece of Georgian territory occupied by Russia. This should be clear to anyone who follows the news. They are run by Russian-backed governments (in SO over half of high level officials are on active military duty for Russian army); their borders are protected by Russian soldiers; they have even less autonomy in making their decisions than any autonomous region in Russian Federation (Chechnya anyone?); SO regime stated numerous times that they do not want to be independent – their aim is to be a part of Russia; the separatist governments do not even control all of the territory they want to separate from Georgia (both Abkhazia and SO are divided into parts with pro-Russian and pro-Georgia factions). How can anyone, especially after the events of the last year, claim that Abkhazia and SO are sovereign states?! Irakliy81 05:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The apparent patchwork nature of the territory controlled by South Ossetia speaks against their fulfilling the Montevideo requirements, I think. I know less about Abkhazia, but its and Transnistria's status seem largely similar. It's worth noting that even Russia does not actually recognize these "states", despite their status as its clients. john k 05:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Abkhazia's president is elected by its population rather than being appointed by the Russian president (as Russian regional heads are). Last time the Russian-backed candidate (Khajimba) actually lost the election to Sergei Bagapsh. These are the arguments in favour of the de-facto independence (sovereignty) of Abkhazia. Alaexis 19:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You again demonstrate the lack of information you have on the problem. Bagapsh was "elected" by 1/5 to 1/4 of the population of Abkhazia. The rest of people who are Abkhazia's residents and property owners are forcibly restricted from entering the territory by Russian forces and the local regime, just because of their ethnic origin. It is neither legally nor morally correct to speak about "elections", when majority of the population are ethnically persecuted and have no part in the process. Pirveli 18:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not propose this article for deletion?

There are arguments for this: The absence of clear and/or NPOV inclusion criteria, the absence of reliable sources on most problematic entries, and the continuous fuss around these entries, and the fact that most pertinent and factual information is already compiled into lists such as the one of UN members.

Question 1: Am I the only one to think that this article should be deleted? Dpotop 11:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Question 2: If you are against deleting this article, may I kindly ask what factual information is provided by this article? Dpotop 11:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be against deleting this article. - Irakliy81 17:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I would. List of UN members is not the same as List of sovereign state. A state can be sovereign without being a UN member. In fact, under international law, a state can be a sovereign state even if no other such sovereign officially recognizes it as such. - Mauco 22:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Mauco, we are not here in a court of law, and we are not supposed, on wikipedia, to do the work of lawyers. We are here to report what reputable sources say. Do you have a source saying that the disputed states are sovereign? No! Nobody here has. So, there is no factual information to report. Dpotop 09:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)\

Sources were provided when asked for. sephia karta 11:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No, all problematic states are put in this list based on original research. There is no source stating that they are sovereign. BTW, I presume there are actual UN members for which such sources exist, so they should not be in the list either. Dpotop 11:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

In the case of Transnistria, the following sources below have already been provided nearly a month ago as for why that particular unrecognized country merits inclusion on this list. In addition to these, there are also others:

• International Society and the De Facto State' by Scott Pegg, Ashgate Publishing (1999), ISBN: 1840144785, pages 30 - 43
  
• Fragmentation and the International Relations of Micro-states: self-determination and statehood by Jorri C. Duursma, Cambridge University Press (1996), ISBN 0521563607, page 122
  
• De facto states: the Quest for Sovereignty, by Tozun Bahcheli, Barry Bartmann, Henry Felix Srebrnik, Routledge, UK (2004), ISBN 0714654760, page 112
  
• I would also include The Sustainability and Future of Unrecognized Quasi-States, by Pål Kolstø, Journal of Peace Research, Vol. 43, No. 6, (2006) DOI: 10.1177/0022343306068102, of the International Peace Research Institute in Oslo, Norway, Pages 723-740, although it does not enumerate Montevideo directly. It does go to the heart of all four criteria, however, and sustains this (narrow) sovereignty argument. - Mauco 19:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I should have noticed sooner. Regarding "sustains this (narrow) sovereignty argument"... the entire notion that we're sustaining an argument (WP:OR) that part of part of Montevideo decides sovereignty (WP:OR) is WP:OR on top of WP:OR. That's certainly an interesting topic, but it is a theory. And here it's being said that according to this very narrow interpretation of what sovereignty might be, Transnistria fits. If this isn't cooking the lab experiment to fit the results, I don't know what is.

Perhaps we should just (more accurately) rename this article to "List of states speculated to be sovereign." That's all this is right now. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 23:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

In practical terms, this article currently lists all the world's de facto independent states. sephia karta 11:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, but "List of de facto independent states" is different from "List of sovereign states". Dpotop 11:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose deleting this article. Whatever issues we have about various unrecognized states being listed, it would not be solved by deleting this list. As I've noted before, numerous undisputedly sovereign states have not been members of the UN in the past, and today the same is true of Vatican City. These issues can be ironed out by having clearer guidelines about what exactly we're looking for, not by deleting this article. john k 16:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

No it is not. The sovereignty meant in this thread means de facto independence. sephia karta 21:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Lack of recognition does not necessarily equal lack of sovereignty

There seems to be some confusion as to the declaratory principle. Just to be clear for those here who are new to public international law: A lack of recognition may be an indicator of a lack of sovereignty, but it does not follow automatically that a lack of recognition means that a state lack sovereignty.

In fact, even a state or government with no recognition still has the ability to engage in international relations. A de facto government requires no diplomatic recognition to conduct itself under international law. Both United States and international courts have repeatedly accorded legal standing to de facto governments.

De facto governments may conduct foreign relations with sovereign states which have not extended de jure recognition to them. Section 107 of the Restatement (Second) of Foreign Relations Law of the United States 119651 states that: "An entity not recognized as a state but meeting the requirements for recognition specified in § 100 of controlling a territory and population and engaging in foreign relations], or an entity recognized as a state whose regime is not recognized as its government, has the rights of a state under international law in relation to a non-recognizing state..." See also Article 74 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties which states that "The severance or absence of diplomatic or consular relations between two or more States does not prevent the conclusion of treaties between those States". - Mauco 22:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

All of this has no relevance for this discussion. Declaratory principle you like so much does not give any clear criteria for the list that could be easily checked. It just acknowledges that the state can exist without recognition. It doesn't say that any entity without recognition is a state.

Recognition, on the other hand, is a verifiable criterion and I do not see why we should completely discard it. (PaC 04:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC))

Untrue. E.g. the Badinter Arbitration Committee of the EU gave as criteria population, territory and government, all 3 are a matter only of straightforward fact checking. sephia karta 11:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt you (Mauco, PaC, Sephia), but we are not in a court of law. Your arguments, be they super-well constructed, should have no influence on this article, because they are based on original research, not on explicit statements of reputable sources. Dpotop 12:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

what do you mean, this is not correct answer dpotop. For instance mr Sephia Karta gives an example of the Badinter Arbcom, this is something that can be checked, they published their criteria, it is not something he made up, there is a record of this so what he says is not original research. The same for what mr Mauco says, he refers to United States law and Vienna Convention, you can check this, and international law, it is not him that makes up international law, everything can be confirmed with the sources so it is not original research, I think they have a very good point Pernambuco 14:42, 14 February 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

You persist in not understanding that international law does not govern Wikipedia editing. Wikipedia has its own laws, which are more strict than what you define as "international law". Normally, nothing enters Wikipedia until a reputable source saying exactly that is found. And when I say "exactly that", I mean that deducing things is forbidden, per WP:SYNT. Therefore, all your arguments since you came here are fundamentally flawed. Dpotop 15:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

BTW, since you keep talking about "international law", why don't you take your arguments to the International court of justice, and ask them why the UN does not recognize Taiwan and the other territories as "sovereign". If it's that obvious those countries are sovereign according to international law, get this sovereignty recognized there, and then we have a reputable source, and we can finish this damned article. Dpotop 15:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Ha-ha. Good point Dpotop! All separatist lovers, hiding behind made-up international-law-excuses can take it with international courts and when you present here positive results we can continue this conversation. Meanwhile, separatist states are out of the list. (PaC 16:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC))

Actually, I have nothing against "separatist states". But this is Wikipedia, there are some rules, and this article does not respect them. Dpotop 21:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The same argument can be put in reverse (but without the "ha-ha"): Has there been a ruling by the International Court of Justice to the effect that the Montevideo entities are NOT sovereign states? It would be hard to see how, if the meet the requirements for statehood under international law, that an international law court can fail to recognize this. Objectively speaking, and I think that everyone with knowledge of these issues are well aware of this, tTheir lack of recognition is due to political factors - as opposed to an empirical lack of sovereignty. - Mauco 19:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Right. So the Klingon empire is sovereign, too, because there was no ruling of the International Court of Justice saying the converse. :):):):) Frankly Mauco, you can do better as bogus argument. Dpotop 21:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Straw man retort. Numerous academic and peer-reviewed sources (as provided) indicate that Transnistria meets the requirements for sovereignty as enumerated by Montevideo. No such sources exist for the Klingon empire. - Mauco 23:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that the paragraph Mauco wrote that starts "De facto governments may conduct foreign relations with sovereign states ..." is a tautology particularly with the sources that are used. Assuming it is states and not governments that are recognised, for an entity to be "engaging in foreign relations" as a State then the other counterparty State must recognise that the entity has the capacity to act as a State. The second reference to the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties basically has the same circular argument, to be valid they both have to be States, and what it is says is quite unsurprising as states frequently break diplomatic or consular relations with other states as a from of reprimand (eg the UK, Libya and Lockerbie) or when they are at war etc, that is where interlocutors come in useful, but it does not mean that an entity which is not recognised by other states is a state. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Why not propose this article for deletion? part 2.

I see Mauco is again trying to drown a decent question under a flood of irrelevant and/or redundant text. My questions being quite important, as I see it, I kindly ask you to give it try two sections above. Dpotop 09:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I am hardly alone in believing it wrong to delete this list, as can be seen from this page's discussion. I also feel that I have answered why; in backing up the argument of those who state that sovereignty is not the same as UN membership. This is the answer to your question, Dpotop. If you felt that it was irrelevant, I apologize. - Mauco 19:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

From another list: The unrecognized countries exist. No they don’t. Yes they do. No yes no …. How long is this going to go on? I don’t really get what all the fighting is about. No strike that – I do know. But I have a strong feeling it’s not really about the factual accuracy of this article, but rather about whether we want these places to exist or not.

From a neutral point of view : These places exist. Within the constraints of being unrecognized diplomatically, they operate pretty much like completely independent countries. Whether we like that or not, whether it’s “right”, legal, illegal or the result of an illegal usurpation – it’s still a fact. Changing the wording in this article or deleting them from lists where they otherwise satisfy all objective criteria doesn’t change that.

The lack of recognition is motivated for political reasons for all of these places, from A (Abkhazia) to T (Taiwan, Transnistria and TRNC). But Wikipedia can not be governed by geopolitical riders. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, and it is edited based on facts. Anyone who proposes to include nutcases like Sierra Leone and Somalia on the list, and exclude much better-run places like Taiwan and Somaliland, must better be prepared to explain very well and convincingly just how the former are more "states" and more sovereign than the latter. - Mauco 19:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Mauco, sovereignty and recognition are two political concepts. It's good you understood this. And saying that some nation is or is not sovereign is motivated by politics. There's no a priori notion of sovereignty. And you should write to the point, and not clog talk pages with redundant text. Everybody knows your arguments, and mine. Now, it's time for some action. Dpotop 21:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. Sovereignty is a concept from Political Science and from the science that studies International Law. Whether or not a state is sovereign is a question answered in these fields of science, it is not motivated by politics. Checking whether a state is sovereign is similar to checking whether the Caspian Sea is a lake. You are right to ask for a sourced evaluation, but using a definition that involves only straightforward fact checking satisfies this. Even better, when you asked for additional sources, these were provided. sephia karta 21:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Mauco, I'm very dubious about the extent to which a place like South Ossetia operates like a completely independent country. The article on it suggests that it only controls a crazy patchwork within the area that it claims sovereignty over, with the Georgian government controlling its own crazy patchwork. john k 18:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I get the same impression from reading the same article, John. Unfortunately I know next to nothing about the real situation in South Ossetia. I support those here who say that each inclusion on the list must be sourced, regardless of whether we use Montevideo or some other criteria. It is possible, then, that South Ossetia will not make the list. At the same time, the Wikipedia article on the place is of course not a reliable source. I doubt that there are any South Ossetian editors on Wikipedia, or involved in the article. However, I do know that Wikipedia has quite a few Georgian editors. It would therefore not surprise me that the current Wikipedia article presents the situation in a light not entirely favorable to the South Ossetian claims to statehood, and quite possibly includings statements which, when closer examined, turn out to not have any support or factual basis. - Mauco 19:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the wikipedia article is not a reliable source. But there ought to be an affirmative obligation to provide sources to support inclusion, I think. This really ought to be where we start. Sources on Somaliland as a sovereign state; sources on Abkhazia; sources on Transnistria; sources on South Ossetia, and so forth. UN membership should be sufficient to qualify the 192 members, and it shouldn't be hard to source either the Vatican or Taiwan/ROC. The rest need sourcing. john k 19:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the fact that Wikipedia is not reliable source is proved by the current contents of this list:). It is result of such ignorant policies that university professors cry "Please, no Wikipedia!!!" when talking about reference sources for the students' works:) Pirveli 05:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

All that this article currently claims is that the states listed possess a population, territory, government and the capacity to enter into diplomatic relation with other states. You don't seriously dispute this, do you? (At least except for South-Ossetia.)sephia karta 13:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, first of all South Ossetia is also included, which is totally ridiculous and absurd. Secondly, these entities (at least part of them, like Abkhazia and Transnistria) CANNOT enter into diplomatic relations with other states. For other states do not enter into diplomatic relations with the entities, which they do not recognize. And Abkhazia and Transnistria are NOT recognized by ANY state on planet Earth. Thus, they have no capacity to enter diplomatic relations with the states. Pirveli 01:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Not to nitpick, but I don't think that Montevideo limits itself to only diplomatic relations. It merely talks about a capacity to enter into relations with other states. These relations can take a variety of forms. In history, the misnamed German Democratic Republic and puppet state Manchukuo were trailblazers. Back then, there was a debate over their sovereignty, much like we are now debating the Montevideo 8. But few at the time denied that they at least held the capacity to enter into relations (in different forms) with other states. - Mauco 02:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

1.Arisona and Alaska also have capacity to enter relations with other states by such criteria. 2. Manchukuo was never listed as a sovereign state in the contemporary encyclopedeas of that time.3. South Ossetia is still total and non-debatable nonsense. This list's content is result of mere forcing and not of discussion results. It is not formally compatible with the term "encyclopedia":) Pirveli 19:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

That you would compare Abkhazia to the GDR is a bit distressing. Among other things, the latter was, after 1973, a UN member. Looking at the UN alone is problematic. The fairly clear distinction between the situation of Abkhazia or Transnistria and that of the ROC is even clearer when you look at regional organizations more broadly. Under one name or another, Taiwan is a member of APEC, the Asian Development Bank, the IOC, the UPU, and the World Trade Organization. Not as many as it might be, but nonetheless, considerably more recognition than any of these other places. Taiwan is a state where it is pretty damned clear that even states that do not de jure recognize it, do, de facto consider it to be more or less a sovereign state. With the others, there is no comparable status, and the question of whether they can enter into relations with other states seems highly questionable unless one can really point to a scholarly consensus. john k 21:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

john k, while it is only fair to be critical of the sovereignty of South-Ossetia, it would be unfair to judge all of the Montevideo 8 by this one case. I agree with Mauco that we have to judge the cases each on their own basis. It would be equally unfair though to restrict arguments to only one case if they also apply to others. If dependence upon Russia speaks against South-Ossetia, dependence upon Italy must equally speak against the Vatican. sephia karta 13:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The case of the Vatican, which is recognized by most states around the world, and which is dependent on Italy only in the sense that it is really tiny and inside Italy, is not at all the same as South Ossetia or Abkhazia, which are unrecognized separatist regimes in states neighboring Russia, propped up by the Russian military, and not diplomatically recognized even by Russia. They are puppet states. I don't think anyone would accuse the Vatican of being an Italian puppet. I'm going to ask again, as I have several times, whether you all would have, prior to 1995, supported us listing Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Transkei, and Venda on this list. To me that seems nearly indefensible, and I don't see how these Russian puppet states (or North Cyprus or Nagorno-Karabkh, for that matter) are much better. john k 20:03, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I really hate to dodge a valid question, John, but personally I know too little about these cases to give you a qualified answer. In the case of Transnistria (which I do know about) it would be wrong to subscribe wholesale to the argument of Transnistria's opposition, which claims that it is Russian puppet state. The reality is much more nuanced than that. In the mid-1990s, Transnistria got very little help from an increasingly antagonistic Russia, and oriented itself towards Ukraine for its survival. Today, Russia invests in Transnistria and supports it financially. It is not the only one to do this, but the largest of several countries (largest in terms of investment and aid). At the same time, Russia repeatedly defends the territorial integrity of Moldova. This is not the case of Turkey vis-a-vis TRNC/Cyprus, or Armenia vis-a-vis Nagorno-Karabakh/Azerbaijan. - Mauco 21:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enoughon Transnistria, but what we really need are sources for all these in general. I'd also prefer that sources be provided with some paraphrasing to indicate the content. Just listing books isn't very helpful, as it doesn't really explain what they say, and there's no reason to know whether the sources are actually on point. john k 22:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Russia defend the integrity of Moldova as it defend the integrity of Georgia. In both cases Russia didn't formally recognized the puppet countrie (S. Ossetia, Abkhazia or Transnistria) but it created them with all kind of support, including military support. Russian Army was directly and decisively involved in the War of Transnistria and Russian troups are still present in Transnistria. No difference compared with S. Ossetia or Abkhazia, is the same Russian expansionism.--MariusM 23:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I see Mauco is again trying to drown a decent question under a flood of irrelevant and/or redundant text. My questions being quite important, as I see it, I kindly ask you to give it try two sections above. Dpotop 09:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. There are different ways to define sovereignty. At the current time, this list explains (in its introduction) that it uses the criteria of Montevideo. This is probably what is closest to long standing practice of international law, although the fourth criteria of Montevideo appears to be a bit iffy and not solidly grounded in international law (which might explain why later restatements of the principle often repeat just the first three). - Mauco 00:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

From you? You must be kidding. Given the sheer amount of prose you wrote on Transnistria-related issues, you are an experienced editor. And it's not like these issues were not discussed before 1000 times. Dpotop 08:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I am not kidding. I am politely asking you - again - to please assume good faith by me as well as by any other Wikipedia editor. To assume good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. Your participation here is very welcome. But if you can not abide by this fundamental principle of Wikipedia, perhaps you should consider becoming a reader rather than an editor. - Mauco 13:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I cite from WP:AGF, which you seem to interpret to your ends:

• This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary.
• Assuming good faith also does not mean that no action by editors should be criticized, but instead that criticism should not be attributed to malice unless there is specific evidence of malice.
• Accusing the other side in a conflict of not assuming good faith, without showing reasonable supporting evidence, is another form of failing to assume good faith.

So, look at yourself in the mirror before talking about good faith. And stick to the article here. Dpotop 13:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

How about we move this mutual mudslinging to our respective user-talk pages? The whole "No they don’t. Yes they do. No yes no" is marginally relevant when it pertains to countries. But this WP:AGF "No you are not. Yes you are. No yes no" is not. - Mauco 14:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't agree more, given that it's you who invokes WP:AGF every other dispute. Dpotop 14:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Would different definitions of sovereignty help?

Right now, this list is using the Montevideo Convention as its yardstick for sovereignty. There are also other ways to define what is and is not a sovereign state, however. Stephen Krasner, in his book "Sovereignty" (ISBN 069100711X), lists four other definitions. Would it help to add those to the list? Perhaps by listing four + Montevideo, and making a ruleset for this list that if a country meets two out of four, sourced of course, then it can be deemed sovereign as regards inclusion in this list. Krasner is an authority on the matter. He is currently with the United States State Department and a big part of his work relates to the shaping of policy for issues involving questions of sovereignty. - Mauco 00:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

No, they wouldn't, unless you have reputable sources stating that those disputed entities are sovereign, in which case the definition of sovereignty is not important. Dpotop 11:37, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but this is wholly unscientific. There is no ultimate truth according to which a state is or is not sovereign, definition is everything. If a source sais that a state is sovereign then it it is either using a certain concept/definition of sovereignty and has found it to apply in the case of that state, or it is merely voicing an unfounded opinion. sephia karta 13:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Nope, you're on wikipedia here, not in some research institute. The scientific method is not Wikipedia's rule, which instead has its own set of rules. Original research is rejected, even though it may be done in accordance to the scientific method. So, if everybody believes that 1=2, and if all reputable sources say so, then Wikipedia must report it as such. Dpotop 00:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The key here is that Wikipedia must quote what reliable source have to say on the matter, rather than making up our own minds about which states fit which definition. See WP:ATT. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Stephen Krasner is considered one of the world's top sovereignty experts. Princeton scholar, State Department expert, etc. I am taken aback by User:Dpotop's kneejerk rejection of every proposal or suggestion made by me. But we can of course just stick to Montevideo, which is quite close to the classical treatment of sovereignty under international law. - Mauco 01:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

And I've already produced an expert source on the frozen conflict states who has written about Montevideo specifically and that sovereignty cannot exist without legitimacy. Until de jure sovereign countries begin recognizing the separatist states, you cannot claim sovereignty. Your contentions (and 1 out of four, or 2 out of four plus 2 out of some other 4 criteria are sufficient to represent an authority as sovereign) is all WP:OR. If you would like a de facto autonomous or de facto independent list, that's fine, but de facto sovereign, which is what you advocate, is a fundamental and untenable contradiction in terms.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, we cannot stick to our own interpretations of Montevideo or any other legislation; that is the very definition of original research. Rather, we must quote experts who state whether or not these areas are "sovereign states". Jayjg ^(talk) 01:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Palestine?

I've just visited this page - so I'm not really about its history - but shouldn't Palestine be on here? According to the standards (population - check, defined - check, negotiate - check) it seemingly should.Daniel()Folsom ^T|_C|^U 23:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see there's been some discussion - in that case I feel the only debatable thing would be the land, but this article proves that some land does belong to Palestine (note: it's from the Washington Post - which has to be reliable). The population is fairly obvious given the reason for withdrawing and the existance of land (why would you withdraw from an empty space?) and the negotiations are obviously going on per the conflict.Daniel()Folsom ^T|_C|^U 23:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The de jure State of Palestine controls no territory, while the de facto Palestinian Authority is not a sovereign entity. john k 05:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The de jure state of Transnistria controls no territory (and its very existence is not accepted internationally, which is different from PLO/etc), and de facto the Transnistrian government is not sovereign. So, why do we, editors, discriminate here between these states? Dpotop 07:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

My understanding was that Trasnistria was a de facto state which de facto controls territory, even if internationally that territory is considered to be part of Moldova. This is not at all comparable to Palestine. john k 15:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok now that I've looked up de jure - than who legally controls the Gaza Strip - I mean how can one country give land to another - but the latter not legally own the land? It'd be like if the United States didn't own California or anything west of the mississippi (I can't think of any English examples because my studies have focused on America -but I'm sure there are some)Daniel()Folsom |\^T/|\_C/|\^U/ 12:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank are controlled by the Palestinian Authority, which is not a sovereign entity. The State of Palestine, a de jure entity, is controlled by the PLO, which is a distinct organization from the PA, but controls no territory. john k 15:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

this list includes both de facto and de jure states, so if Palestine fits one of these two it can be on the list. but what I am not sure of, does it have defined borders? because I read somewhere that there are some of the groups in Palestine who claim all of Israel as theirs, it is similar to how there were groups in Taiwan until recently and they said that all of China was theirs, AFAIK the official position of Taiwan has backed away from that claiming now. But back to Palestine, what is the border situation, remember one of the requirements is a defined territory Pernambuco 14:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC) (sockpuppet of Mauco)

Borders. You mean, the borders revendicated by the Palestinian Authority, as compared to those revendicated by Transnistria? Because, mind you, Transnistria controls certain territories outside Transnistria and does not control certain territories inside Transnistria. Like any normal sovereign state, you would say. Dpotop 14:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

i was asking about the borders of Palestine, anyone know please? Pernambuco 14:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Palestine does not have defined borders. I would think that they at least claim all of the territory of the former Palestine Mandate that was not controlled by Israel before 1967, but I don't think they've specifically renounced all territories beyond that. The exact borders of the State of Palestine are to be determined by final status negotiations with Israel. john k 15:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

minor change during page protection

Can someone please change the flagicon template {{SERBIA}} to {{SRB}} (removing redirect) as the redirect will soon be updated with a new unrelated template.

Thank you. // Laughing Man 02:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Can someone please help? // Laughing Man 21:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. Picaroon 22:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. :) // Laughing Man 01:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Montevideo does not use the word "Sovereign"

I noticed that in Montevideo Convention the word sovereignty is not used. Dl.goe 10:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I beefed up your remark. It's far too important in this case. Dpotop 10:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Please let me know if any contributor here is seriously prepared to argue that the Montevideo Convention is not about sovereignty and the definition of States under international law. If no such source is provided, the tag box on top of the article referring to Montevideo can be removed in accordance with the role of Montevideo in modern state creation theory (The Creation of States in International Law. By James Crawford. (Oxford: Clarendon Press). --Britlawyer 14:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

(Britlawyer was blocked for being a sockpuppet of User:William Mauco)

Montevideo, again

There's a good, and fairly balanced, run down of Montevideo at The Head Heeb blog from a couple of years ago. Jonathan Edelstein, who writes the blog, probably doesn't qualify as a reliable source by wikipedia standards - he's a lawyer, but doesn't seem to have any academic credentials or non-self-publications, but he's a smart, well-informed person on these kinds of subjects. Edelstein's discussion would suggest that a place like Somaliland more or less fits all four Montevideo criteria, at least de facto - he calls New Caledonia a 3.5 on Montevideo, and surely Somaliland's capacity to engage in foreign relations is considerably greater than that of New Caledonia. But I'm still not sure what to make of Transnistria and the Caucasian entities. Anyway, it's interesting reading, and sheds some light, I think, on how the Montevideo criteria are conventionally interpreted, and on the ways that the whole determination, especially of point 4, is becoming more difficult due to the increasing rights in foreign policy given to entities that are not considered sovereign states. john k 20:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What about Aruba?

Why isn't Aruba included in the list? Eliko 15:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Because Aruba is a self-governing part of the Kingdom of Netherlands.It's not sovereign, just autonomous.Dimts 15:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

So the article about Aruba includes some wrong information: in the tabulation in the right side - the year of independence is indicated as 1986...Eliko 01:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Aruba's infobox is wrong.Now this is a quote from the article about Aruba on Wiki:

"Aruba seceded from the Netherlands Antilles on January 1, 1986, to become a separate,self-governing member of the Kingdom of the Netherlands."

'Self-governing member of the Kingdom of the Netherlands' means antonomy within the Kingdom of the Netherlands.Dimts 12:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria based on territoriality, population, government

In the case of disputed terriotories, the legitimacy of a government is not determined by recognition as much as by its effective control over a territory claimed. This is a key part of what makes such a government sovereign over a territory. See e.g. Yaël Ronen: Transition from Unlawful Territorial Regimes: the Power of Human Rights over Status [1]. The underlying feature of international law in this matter states clearly that territory and population are the building blocks of an internationally-effective territorial state (Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States of 1933, 165 LNTS, rt. 1.) Britlawyer 15:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry Britlawyer, but control of territory = de facto. Sovereign = de jure. There is no legal basis for indicating that the frozen conflict zone breakaway territories are sovereign. Having a "Sovereign nations" article which ascribes sovereignty based on some parts of something—and pretending there is no difference between de facto and de jure by ignoring the distinction completely by introducing an alternate scale of evaluation—is little more than POV pushing. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Er, no, that's not true. One of the main legal theories of how to determine what is a sovereign state basically says that a sovereign state is one that has control over its territory. See Declarative theory of statehood. john k 17:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Applying legal theories to theorize on what territories might be considered to be sovereign = WP:OR versus a list of sovereign nations acknowledged to be such by the international community. The frozen conflict zone territories, for example, have no real ability to conduct foreign policy (that is, only engaged by their direct role in their conflict), one of the other requirements for sovereignty. Postulating a state can be "sovereign" without being able to engage in de jure relations with other sovereign nation-states is WP:OR. That is de facto independence at best. The notion of de facto sovereignty which is argued here is a contradiction in terms. Either the content here needs to change or the article title needs to change. I've read Badinter in detail (refering to Declarative theory of statehood) and applying it as you are doing is WP:OR. You are building your case on a self-referential WP:OR base. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 19:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't like blind revert of others. --Des Grant 08:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, was that directed at me? —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 23:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Currently listed states present on List of unrecognized countries merit inclusion here equally well, as per Montevideo ("The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states") and customary international law. Absence of recognition does not invalidate sovereignty, with reference to 29 Va. J. Int’l L. 473, 476 n.10 (1989) Britlawyer 16:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You are insisting that unrecognized countries are "de facto sovereign." This is a basic and untenable contradiction in terms. Sovereignty can only be de jure, and only one sovereign entity can have de jure authority over a given territory. Therefore, taking Transnistria as an example:

• the PMR is the de facto controlling authority over the Transnistrian territory;
• the PMR functions autonomously of Molodova and can be factually described as de facto independent (note, however, Transnistrians are still citizens of the sovereign Moldova, vote in Moldovan elections, etc.);
• the PMR is not sovereign as Moldova is the de jure sovereign authority over the Transnistrian territory;
• the argument that unrecognized states are listed here "because they deserve to be" is also WP:OR;
• "political existence" is not a synonym for "sovereignty," it is a synonym for "autonomous" or "de facto independent".

Any territory requiring clarification regarding its alleged part of part of Montevideo criteria sovereignty does not belong in this article. (There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth that Taiwan is therefore not sovereign either, but facts are facts.) —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 23:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean n. 21: H. Lauterpacht, supra note 14, at 7-25; T. Chen, supra note 14, at 28-29; but see 1 D. O'Connell, supra note 10, at 132. The Convention on Rights and Duties of States, supra note 17, incorporates the idea that those communities fulfilling the conditions of statehood are entitled to recognition regardless of the political interests of other states. “The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states....” Id. art. 3. “The recognition of a state merely signifies that the state which recognizes it accepts the personality of the other with all the rights and duties determined by international law....” Id. art. 6. Lexicon (talk) 16:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

There are remarks that clarify the status of the unrecognised countries so they should be in the list. Alaexis 16:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

We have a separate List of unrecognized countries, we can put this list at a "See also" section, but we don't need OR for sovereign states.--MariusM 18:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Source?

Ok - so us determining what states are sovereign based off a critera seems likes it's not working. Why don't we get a list of sovereign states (there has to be one somewhere) and cite the entire thing with that.danielfolsom © 05:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Good suggestion, but it is not an essential requirement for Wikipedia: See numerous other lists of everything else. It is enough that the arguments can be substantiated on a case by case basis, and its no requirement that whole list exists in identical form elsewhere. Britlawyer 14:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I know it is not a requirement, but I'm just saying ... the page is so controversial that perhaps here we should require one.danielfolsom © 14:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

ok how bout this - if you want a country listed here, you have to get a Notable source to confirm it (not say that it should be here, but confirm it)danielfolsom© 21:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a minimum requirement, and it would be advisable in contentious cases to require more than one source and request that such sources are peer reviewed. Britlawyer 01:57, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Nono, not more than one - just one - right now there are nonedanielfolsom© 03:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Abkhazia and South Ossetia

Part 1. Is Abkhazia really independent?

Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not sovereign states - they are Georgian territories occupied by Russia. I am tired of trying to prove this obvious point. Why does this article continuously support Russian POV?! Irakliy81 18:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

How would you prove this (Russian occupation, that is)? Russian forces are there as peacekeepers. There was a UN resolution a few days ago that confirmed it. Alaexis 18:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Are we talking “de facto” here or “de jure”? If “de-jure” then yes, you are correct Russian forces are there as peacekeepers, but if we are talking “de facto” then they are nothing but an occupation force of Russian army. In both Abkhazia and South Ossetia the so called peacekeepers oppress local Georgian populations, support separatist regimes, and supply Abkhazian and South Ossetian “armies” with weapons. Not to mention that these separatist regimes are completely dependent on Russia and have less true sovereignty than many autonomous regions inside Russia. Irakliy81 18:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Try to prove all the statements you've written.

1. oppress local Georgian populations
2. and supply Abkhazian and South Ossetian “armies” with weapons
3. these separatist regimes are completely dependent on Russia
4. and have less true sovereignty than many autonomous regions inside Russia

We should remember that Russian-backed candidate lost the last presidential elections in Abkhazia (while in Russia region's heads are appointed by the president with the consent of local legislature). Alaexis 18:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The statements I've written are not difficult to prove:

1. Abkhazian militia and Russian forces almost always act together. Russian forces do not interfere with the movements of Abkhazian military in the demilitarized zone that they supposed to control. Moreover, there were several examples of Russian “peacekeeping” forces surrounding Georgian villages in Gali region and letting Abkhazian militia to enter those villages to rob and at times murder their inhabitants. In the last 10 years more than 2,000 Georgian civilians were killed by Abkhazian militia in the “peacekeeping” forces’ zone of responsibility.

2. A lot of the weapons that are brought into the conflict zones for the “needs” of the “peacekeeping” forces somehow end up in either Abkhazian or Ossetian armies. From time to time you can see stories of Georgian forces intercepting such transactions surface in the media.

3 & 4. In South Ossetia most senior members of separatist government are people who are on active military duty in Russian army and who were directly appointed to those positions from Russia. In Abkhazia after the loss of Moscow-backed candidate in presidential elections (which in themselves were illegitimate) Russia instituted a total blockade. The blockade wasn’t taken down until the candidate who had lost was made vice-president. This effectively split the government into two factions and significantly reduced the power of the elected president. Irakliy81 05:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Irakliy, where are the references? You can't ask everyone to believe in what you're writing. Please present neutral (that is, not Russian, Georgian or Abkhazian) references supporting your claims. Alaexis 05:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

What neutral references are you talking about? Most of these events are not of interest to the western media. Almost anything that is written about the subject is going to be either Russian or Georgian POV. Why should the burden of proof have to reside with me? Why Russian POV does not need any proof and is accepted apriori? Why don’t you prove that the current vice-president of Abkhazia did not loose the presidential elections and that he wasn’t made vice-president only after Russian blockade? Or could you present neutral sources that say that the defense minister of South Ossetia is not a colonel of Russian army? Or please explain to me why do Russian “peacekeeping” forces need air-to-ground missiles when they are not allowed to have aviation? And while you are at it please give me one example when Abkhazian forces were prevented from entering the demilitarized zone in Gali region, or when Russian “peacekeepers” protected the local Georgian population? Irakliy81 00:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

A lot is written in Western sources about this conflict. I didn't quite understand what do you want me to prove about the elections. Here(notice the neutral bbc link) Khadjimba is called pro-Kremlin candidate and it's written that electoral commission declared Mr Bagapsh the winner. Alaexis 16:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, that is correct, however, there is a lot that isn’t mentioned in this short article. Specifically, that after Bagapsh was declared the winner in the first election Russia enraged that the Khandjimba had lost instituted a blockade of Abkhazia. Only when Bagapsh agreed to hold the second election the blockade was stopped. The second election was a complete farce. There was only one candidate – Bagapsh running together with Khandjimba as vice-president. Thus, the winner of presidential elections was forced to take the looser as a vice president. Now, does this comply with your definition of sovereignty? Irakliy81 21:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I know about these events. If they demonstrate anything they demonstrate that Abkhazia is not de facto part of Russia. I cannot imagine Kremlin blockading one of the Russian regions after "wrong" elections. If Russia were an occupant it would've forced the right man but that didn't happen and these events resulted in compromise (Bagapsh+Khadjimba). Alaexis 04:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

That’s exactly what I was talking about – Abkhazia has less sovereignty than any autonomous region in Russia. The “compromise” as you call it, was nothing more than Kremlin forcing its defeated candidate onto Abkhazians. The choice Bagapsh had after the blockade was in place was either: (1) starve to death or (2) accept Khadjimba as vice-president. He chose the latter. I am rather puzzled that you see any attribute of sovereignty in his actions… Irakliy81 16:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, if Russia controlled everything in Abkhazia what would prevent it from installing Khadjimba there? Alaexis 18:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

No, Russia does not control everything but it does control enough to make Khandjimba a vice-president against the will of current Abkhazian population. Again, in my book that implies lack of sovereignty. Look at it this way, the occupation is not as open as with, let's say, Germany occupying Poland but the dependence of Abkhazian "government" on Russia is very clear. They can hardly do anything without getting Russian approval first and if they don't they get a blockade and in the end are forced to accept Russian will anyway (even if in slightly modified form). Irakliy81 18:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course you are right that Russia has some control/influence in Abkhazia. A lot of countries have been influenced by other countries in some degree. It's quite hard to make a clear boundary. Sanctions are also imposed fairly often by many countries. I don't endorse 2004 Russian sanctions (in fact I think it was quite a foolish action) but they can't prove anything imho .Alaexis 19:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sanctions are one thing, telling people how their government should be shaped and succeeding is another. If the blockade had no effect I would not be arguing with you on this point, but it did – Abkhazia had to submit to Russian will. A good example of sanctions are the US sanctions against Cuba. If after those sanctions Castro agreed to have a vice-president or prime-mister be the one appointed by the US I would say that Cuba is not sovereign either. Irakliy81 19:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

He simply wants others to see that. :) Those who are more familiar with the situation in Abkhazia, know perfectly well that Bagapsh’s capitulation drastically reduced his popularity and strengthened Khajimba’s clan. The “government” of Abkhazia straddles severe internal division, the fact which is carefully masked by Abkhaz/Russian media, and the fragile “Bagapsh+Khajimba” unity is only kept by almost a fanatic fear of the Georgian comeback and, of course, by Russian military officers assigned to the Abkhaz separatist government.--Kober^Talk 16:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Russian military officers assigned to the Abkhaz separatist government? Reduced Bagapsh's popularity? I'm already slightly tired of asking for sources. Alaexis 18:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Part 2 - Miscellany

We digress. Neither Abkhazia nor South Ossetia are internationally recognized. They are not sovereign--and apparently cannot even continue to exist without Russia's support. Engaging in a bit of WP:OR, if Russia accuses the Baltics of smuggling arms to Georgia--a blatant lie--then you know Russia is smuggling arms to Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
     Their presence in the list here makes it, once again, "List of states speculated to be sovereign." The criteria for inclusion--a narrow definition of part of part of Montevideo--is preposterous as defining sovereignty. The only purpose of that definition is to claim that all the frozen conflict territories are sovereign, and even then the arguments (Smirnov made agreements with Russia == foreign relations) are specious at best. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I really don't care about who is right in that edition war, but there is a way to do things and you didn't do it right. Souris2005 20:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the right way to do it? Irakliy81 05:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Irakliy, you can't just remove Abkhazia and South Ossetia and keep all the other unrecognized countries. That doesn't make any sense. Currently, the article says, "Five states, neither UN members nor recognised by any states that are sovereign according to some interpretations of article 1 of the Montevideo Convention, Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Somaliland, South Ossetia and Transnistria." If you would like to change the criteria for inclusion, please get a consensus first. Khoikhoi 03:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I modified the introduction too. Now everything reads correctly. I do not wish to change the criteria for inclusion but neither Abkhazia nor South Ossetia satisfy criteria put forth by Montevideo Convention and thus should not be on this list. Irakliy81 21:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Where is Kosovo? Why didn't Mr Alex include other de facto independent places such as Kosovo? Also Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, which is not yet fully under Russian control and has alternative Government of President Doku Umarov? Ahh don’t want to include own separatists but why not those enclaves which their own country want to devour? And this is not POV? Ldingley 17:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

For the record I didn't include anything here.

Afaik Kosovo is ruled by UN now so they can't be called independent/sovereign yet. After they'll have declared independence we'll put it in the article (even if they aren't recognised by UN). It's a sad (for Serbs) story but I think it's the only solution and it'll happen sooner or later.

If it were 1998 now I'd have no objections to putting Chechnya here also. Check the criteria for inclusion at the beginning of the page. Alaexis 17:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ichkeria doesn't have defined territory as it's completely "occupied". Who constitute its permanent population, btw? Alaexis 18:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Part 3. Montevideo applied to RA and RSO

Khoikhoi, please stop reverting the article. Neither Abkhazia nor South Ossetia fit the definition of sovereignty of Montevideo Convention. If you or anyone else thinks otherwise please state your arguments before reverting. Irakliy81 16:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Abkhazia and South Ossetia fit (a), (b) and (c) qualifications of the MC quite nicely. There could be argument about (d) (because it's formulated less clear than the first three) so it's written in the article that these states are sovereign according to some interpretations of article 1. Alaexis 18:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I would disagree - neither (a) nor (b) are clearly satisfied and (c) is clearly not satisfied:

(a) - Abkhazia

(a) Is rather argumentative when 2/3 of Abkhazian population has been displaced and remains in temporary refugee camps. The situation is even less clear in South Ossetia which is a mosaic of Georgian and Ossetian villages.

Irakliy, check the Soviet 1989 census data (Abkhazia#Demographics). Georgians constituted 240,000 out of 525,000 in the republic then. That's less than half and not two thirds already and we should remember that some Georgians have returned to Gali district. Anyway the current population of Abkhazia is permanent. Alaexis 19:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Not only Georgians left Abkhazia after the war – tens of thousands of Russians, Armenians, Greeks, and even Abkhazians themselves no longer live there. The ‘current’ population of Abkhazia is temporary and it will remain temporary until the refuges are allowed to return. Irakliy81 20:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Russians, Armenians, Greeks, Jews and Abkhazians left the republic voluntarily. There are no neutral sources stating that there was an ethnic cleansing of any of these peoples. A lot of people (Georgians, Russians and others) voluntarily left Georgia also. In both cases the current population is permanent. Check the dictionary for the word's meaning. Alaexis 20:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, there was no ethnic cleansing against Armenians, Greeks, Russians etc. – only against Georgians. This does not negate the fact that current population of Abkhazia is barely 1/3 of what it before the war. And out of that 1/3 almost 30% are not subjugated to Bagapsh/Khadjimba regime. I don’t want to argue here about the definition of “permanent” but understand this: people who are temporarily displaced are as much ‘population’ of Abkhazia as those who live there now. This fact would have had no relevance if the number of such people was small but given that it is over 50% I hesitate to say that territory controlled by Bagapsh/Khandjimba regime has permanent population. Irakliy81 03:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the 2003 census (it's not recognised by Georgia but I don't think there's more reliable information about Abkhazia's population) there were 215,000 people in Abkhazia. That's not 1/3 of the pre-war population. Anyway the population of Upper Abkhazia is about 2,000 according to the Georgian census so it can't possibly be 30% of the total Abkhazia's population. The people who were forcefully displaced account for less than 50%. The amount of people who left Abkhazia voluntarily has nothing to do with this issue. Alaexis 07:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The 215,000 figure is quite exaggerated. I could easily prove to you why but don’t want to be sidetracked into a separate discussion. I believe that the actual number is somewhere between 160,000 and 180,000 which is roughly 1/3 of the pre-war population. When I said that about 30% of the current population do not accept Bagapsh/Khadjimba regime I meant not only the residents of Upper Abkhazia but also those of Gali region as well (about 40,000 people). True, Gali region is not under control of central Georgian authorities but Abkhazian control over that region is also rather nominal – basically the region is controlled by local Georgian population. Irakliy81 18:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd ask for sources proving your claims again. UN, for example, criticised Abkhazian authorities for the human rights abuses in Gali district ( Report of the Representative of the Secretary-General on the human rights of internally displaced persons, Walter Kälin - Mission to Georgia). So their control is sufficient to make UN hold them responsible for what's happening there. Alaexis 18:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

(a) - RSO

Virtually all the Ossetian population of South Ossetia don't submit to Georgian authorities. They constitute the permanent population of SO.

Again, SO is a mosaic of different villages: you may have an Ossetian village and then 2 kilometers down the road you have a Georgian village, and then again Ossetian, and then Georgian. Are you saying that you can selectively pick which villages constitute ‘permanent’ population of SO and which don’t? Irakliy81 20:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Those that are subject to Georgian authorities cannot be called citizens of S. Ossetian Republic, don't you agree? Alaexis 20:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

So half the people currently living in SO are not counted as it’s permanent population? Irakliy81 20:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

We are talking about the entity "Republic of South Ossetia". It has absolutely no control over Georgian-populated areas of former SO Aut. Republic. Alaexis 20:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

“Republic of South Ossetia” has no single government. Currently there are two presidents – Kakoyti and Sanakoev. The only thing Kakoyti regime controls is Tskhinvali and some of the Ossetian villages along the road to Russia. As you correctly noted, Georgian villages are not controlled by Kakoyti but neither are many Ossetian villages. A lot of Ossetian villages are not controlled by anyone – neither Georgians, nor Kakoyti, nor Sanakoev. Irakliy81 03:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

quote: during the course of 2007 the central authorities of Georgia decided to give it official status and on April 13 was announced the "Provisional Administration of South Ossetia".[2]

They don't want independence, do they?

Besides, could you name several Ossetian villages controlled by Provisional Administration of South Ossetia/Georgia? For example the main towns of Tskhinvali and Dzau/Java are controlled by RSO. Alaexis 07:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I’m afraid you don’t understand how things work there. How do you imagine one or another government ‘controlling’ a village? Do you think they station tanks there or set checkpoints? If you take checkpoints as the criteria of control then only a few villages (mostly near Tskhinvali) are controlled by anyone at all. 20 km from Tskhinvali (in any direction) people in villages (both Ossetian and Georgian) are rather politically apathetic. Nobody sets checkpoints there and nobody minds if Ossetian (or Georgian) convoys pass though their villages. People move freely from one village to another – Georgians go to Ossetian villages and Ossetians come to Georgian villages. There are simply no authorities to interfere with that. Now, near Tskhinvali and in Java region things are quite different and everyone is much more politically charged but that is a very small part of SO. Irakliy81 18:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

(b)

(b) Neither Abkhazia nor South Ossetia controls the territories they claim. Abkhazian regime controls less than 70% of pre-war Abkhazia and South Ossetian regime controls even less (around 50%). Irakliy81 20:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not mandatory. India, Cyprus and Serbia also don't control all the territory they claim. The (b) qualification requires the entity to have a defined territory. Alaexis 19:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Don’t call it “Abkhazia” then, call it Lower Abkhazia. Same thing for SO – call it Tskhinvali region because most of territory of former SO is not controlled by Kakoyti regime. Irakliy81 20:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, we are talking about the entities "Republic of Abkhazia" and "Republic of South Ossetia". The territory they control is easily defined. Alaexis 20:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Try defining it. The territory that is under ‘de facto’ control of those regimes is pretty difficult to pinpoint. Irakliy81 03:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

In Abkhazia it's not difficult at all. Basically it's all the territory of the Abkhaz ASSR with the exception of Upper Abkhazia. See this map for the territories controlled by Georgia and RSO. Alaexis 07:26, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

In Abkhazia, the Bagaphs/Khadjimba regime does not really control Gali region. In SO, the notion of ‘control’ outside of the conflict zone near Tskhinvali is rather ambiguous (see what I wrote above). Irakliy81 18:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I've written about Gali higher. Even though you don't understand how could the authorities control a village the International Crisis Group ngo apparently does (see map). And the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth (see Wikipedia:Verifiability). Alaexis 19:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

(c)

(c) The “governments” of Abkhazia and South Ossetia are not sovereign – they depend on Russia in almost anything they do. Moreover, South Ossetian “government” never even said that they want to be a sovereign nation – all they want is to integrate into Russia (which they stated more times than I can count). Why do we assign “sovereignty” to entities that explicitly say that they don’t want to be “sovereign”? Irakliy81 18:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

See my arguments about Abkhazia higher. It's true that Mr. Kokoyty expressed the desire to unify both Ossetias inside Russia [3] but it has not happened yet. Could you bring some neutral references that prove that S. Ossetia's government depends on Russia in almost anything they do? Alaexis 19:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Kokoyti refused multiple times to have peace talks with Georgian government directly without Russian intermediaries. Morevoer, Kokoyti is not the only SO president. There are actually two SO governments working in parallel. Why do you disregard that fact? Irakliy81 20:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you bring some neutral references that prove that S. Ossetia's government depends on Russia in almost anything they do? Alaexis 20:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, there would be no ‘neutral’ references to show that. Such things are usually not made public and when they are there is not enough interest in ‘neutral’ countries to record them. If you want to see that RSO government is completely dependent on Russia just read the names/biographies of its ministers (prime minister, defense minister etc.) They are people who were born and grew up in Russia and never even visited SO before they were appointed to their posts. Irakliy81 18:45, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not true (about neutral sources). I've already gave quite a few references to various neutral sources like ngos, UN, bbc etc. Otherwise your arguments would be original research. Alaexis 19:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Transnistria

Agree with Iraklyi81 about the status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, but same situation is for Transnistria. Separatist government there is not even wanting independence, it want to join mother Russia (who created this "country").--MariusM 20:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

May I ask for references? Alaexis 20:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

You may ask whatever you like and I'm always glad to fulfill your requests :-). In 2006 there was a referendum organised by Transnistrian authorities where people allegedly voted for "free association with the Russian Federation". Independence and "association with Russian Federation" are two incompatible things. Even one of the founders of Transnistrian separatism - Vasily Yakovlev - remarked that "The declared purpose of referendum - accession to Russia - is neither politically nor is legally founded" [4]. I am surprised that at Moscow the "desire" of transnistrian people to join Russian Federation is not yet known.--MariusM 20:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Your reference may prove that Transnistrian authorities want to be associated with Russia but it doesn't prove anything about the current situation. Alaexis 21:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize you are not informed about it. Russian troups are still in Transnistria. The leadership of the region is composed mostly of Russian citizens, the majority of them not being born in Transnistria (from above discussions I see the situation is same in South Ossetia). Money from Russia are supporting the separatist regime (either as a direct aid, either as gas supplies which are not paid). Without this money, the regime will colapse.--MariusM 22:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

The majority of them came to Transnistria many years before the war.

American troops are all around the world but that doesn't make any country non-independent. A lot of sovereign countries support other sovereign countries in various ways (financially also). USA, for instance, supports Georgia financially. I don't think that makes Georgia non-sovereign. Alaexis 06:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

If you don't see the difference between the US-Georgia and Russian-Abkhaz relations, I don't see any point in arguing with you. It was Russia that bombed Sukhumi and sent Basayev to massacre Georgians, not Americans. I'm sorry but your attempts at illustrating the Russian-controlled separatist entities as abodes of democracy and examples of statehood are simply ridiculous. You can mislead only those users who have remote knowledge of the issue, but not Moldovans/Romanians or Georgians who have suffered at the hands of Russian imperialists.--Kober^Talk 06:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I've never said Abkhazia, Transnistria or South Ossetia are abodes of democracy. I've used the US-Georgia relations as an example to demonstrate that financial support itself does not imply non-sovereignty of the receiving side. If you want I could give you more examples. Alaexis 09:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The fact that a country wants to be part of another country does not change whether it's sovereign. For examples, see Republic of Texas and Republic of Hawaii. The more pressing issue is that these countries' independence is maintained entirely by the presence of foreign armies, as I understand it. john k 16:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Summary

I don’t want this discussion to slide to defining what ‘permanent’ means or what ‘control’ means – which it probably already has. Both regions are divided into factions pro-Russian and pro-Georgian. Pro-Russian factions in Abkhazia are represented by the Bagapsh/Khajinba regime. It does control some territory (which can hardly be referred to as ‘Abkhazia’) and there are some people living on that territory (who can hardly be referred to as ‘Abkhazian population’). Those people though are all Russian citizens and they all have Russian passports. They use Russian Ruble as currency. The retired people receive their pensions from Russian treasury. Their government is completely dependent on Russia for military/economic aid and protection. Moreover, as the presidential elections in Abkhazia have shown, Russians can disregard the choices these people make in trying to govern themselves.

The fact that Abkhazian or Ossetian population have Russian citizenship has nothing to do with the inclusion criteria. The Russian currency also doesn't prove anything - Montenegro, for example, uses euro, although it's not part of Eurozone. Alaexis 10:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The fact that parts of Abkhazian and Ossetian populations are all Russian citizens together with other facts I’ve presented above demonstrates that so called separatist regimes are nothing more than occupation governments installed by Russians and as such are not sovereign. Why isn’t Tatarstan listed here? It satisfies Montevideo Convention much better than either Abkhazia or South Ossetia, however, it is a part of Russian Federation and as such cannot be considered sovereign. In the similar manner, both Abkhazia and South Ossetia are ‘de facto’ parts of Russia – they are not sovereign. Irakliy81 01:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but you can't just say all the facts presented by you prove something. I've answered your posts higher and brought some references supporting my claims. On the other hand you've brought only one reference (about Mr. Barankevich) during the whole discussion. Alaexis 16:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let’s consider my statements separately and you tell me for which of them would you like me to present reference:

1. Pro-Russian faction in Abkhazia is represented by Bagaph/Khadjimba.

2. Most people living on the territory controlled by Bagapsh/Khadjimba are Russian citizens and have Russian passports.

3. Pensions and other social support payments to people living on the territories controlled by Bagapsh/Khadjimba are paid from Russian treasury.

4. Russian Ruble is used as currency on the territories controlled by Bagapsh/Khadjimba.

5. Khadjimba became a vice president as a direct result of Russian blockade of Abkhazia.

These facts are more or less true (one could argue about the wording of 5.). They do not amount to the proof that Abkhazia is de facto part of Russia, though. For instance they have no direct connection with the inclusion criteria. I've also given a few examples of the same situations happening in other countries. I admit that the situation when one country closes borders to facilitate a compromise in another country is kind of unique - at least I cannot remember anything of that kind. However there is a lot of examples when one country somehow meddles in the internal affairs of another one and even forces the change in government. Anyway, how is that related to the inclusion criteria? Alaexis 20:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is related to the inclusion criteria by proving that Abkhazia does not have an independent government and as such cannot be sovereign. I agree, that none of the facts taken separately proves a complete dependence but if you look at them jointly and also consider many other facts of unparallel dependence of Bagapsh/Khadjimba regime on Russia the picture becomes very clear. Irakliy81 04:17, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, I would like to hear your answer to my earlier question: Why do you think Tatarstan or Krasnodar are not present in this list? Which part of Montevideo don’t they satisfy? Irakliy81 18:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I could've listed quite a few differences but I'd like to point out the following: The list includes all states that satisfy these criteria and claim independence. No part of Russia claims independence now. Alaexis 19:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, fair enough, but South Ossetia does not claim independence either. Would you like me to give you a reference where Kakoyti says that South Ossetia should be a part of Russia? Irakliy81 19:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I wouldn't object. I'd like to show you something also - [5]: Как сообщила агентству Гаглоева, на референдум вынесен следующий вопрос: "Согласны ли Вы с тем, чтобы республика Южная Осетия сохранила свой нынешний статус независимого государства и была признана международным сообществом?". Apparently they claim independence. Alaexis 20:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, here is the link: http://www.vz.ru/politics/2006/6/2/36010.html where Kokotyi himself says that "South Ossetia is already de facto part of Russia." Irakliy81 00:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a valid point. Now as we have contradicting sources I propose to make a remark for South Ossetia that would clarify this matter. Alaexis 05:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Given such contradictions and taking into account that this is not a clear cut case I think it would be better to mention South Ossetia in the introduction along with other disputed territories. Irakliy81 04:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

In South Ossetia the pro-Russian faction is headed by Kokoyti regime. It also controls some territory (primarily around Tskhinvali and in Java region) with some people living on it. Again, all those people have Russian citizenship and receive pensions from Russian government. They also use Ruble as their currency. Their government, with few exceptions, is comprised of Russians who were neither born nor raised in South Ossetia and who moved to South Ossetia only after they were appointed to their posts. Moreover, this government never expressed the desire to be independent but only to become a part of Russia.

I know about the birthplaces of Messrs Kokoity (Tskhinvali) and Morozov (Sterlitamak, Russia). If you have the information about other RSO officials please present it. Alaexis 10:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Anatoly Barankevich, retired colonel of Russian army, who has never been to South Ossetia before 2004 is now the defense minister. I hope you can read in Russian: http://lenta.ru:8083/lib/14164877/ Irakliy81 14:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Here and here are the dossiers of two other SO officials. One of them was born in SO and another one is apparently ethnic Ossetian. There is plenty of local people in the SO government. Alaexis 15:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they couldn’t replace the whole government with Russians. Ossetians are not stupid people, you know. However, that does not change the fact that 2 out of 3 most powerful people in South Ossetia are Russians who have never been to South Ossetia prior to being appointed to their posts. Moreover, one of them ‘retired’ from Russian army just a few weeks before moving to South Ossetia. Irakliy81 01:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

So the only thing one could say is that there are some people in the RSO government who are not locals. What does it have to do with the inclusion criteria anyway? Alaexis 16:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, not ‘some’ but, as I said above, 2 of the 3 most important officials have neither cultural not ethnic ties to South Ossetia. And what it proves is that SO does not have a ‘sovereign’ government. What would you say if for example prime minister and defense minister of Russia were German citizens who never lived in Russia? Or better yet, imagine Iraq: let’s say the new government of Iraq has American ex-military people as prime minister and defense minister. Would you say still say “all that proves that there some people in Iraqi government who are not local”? And would you think that such a government is a true Iraqi government and that it is sovereign? Irakliy81 18:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Both regions also have factions that gravitate back to Georgia and which are being supported by Georgian government. Only for some reason they are not being taken into account by anyone. For some reason those who are supported by Russia and want to join Russian Federation are ‘sovereign’ but those who are supported by Georgia and want to re-join Georgia are not. It is almost like in the recent Ossetian ‘referendums’ where one of the questions read as:

“How do you see the future of South Ossetia? (a) Independent as part of Russia. Or (b) dependent as part of Georgia.” Irakliy81 07:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Could you bring some references proving that this question is formulated exactly like you've written? Alaexis 10:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I have seen it on television. Naturally, it was written in Russian and what you read is my translation of it into English. The meaning is exactly the same though. I will try to find any references to it on the internet, however, I doubt they are readily available. Irakliy81 01:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Create two lists on this page

I propose we create two lists. The first for all countries recognized by the United Nations, the second for every other state with disputed sovereign status, with a note explaining the reason for this status.Souris2005 20:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Not necessary, there is already a List of unrecognized countries. Editors have been busy trying to duplicate that list here as "sovereign" countries using the WP:OR part of part of Montevideo criteria. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Original research is not required to interpret the Montevideo Convention or the concepts of international law upon which it rests. This is an area already well covered in the literature (references upon request). Britlawyer 15:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

To follow up on this, Montevideo has been amply covered in legal literature precisely because it was ratified by, inter alia, the United States. Even a small law library will have at least half a dozen sources. For purposes of defining inclusion criteria for a list such as this, an adequate source is "International Law", Third Edition, by Barry E. Carter (Professor of Law, Georgetown University) and Phillip R. Trimble (Professor of Law, University of California, Los Angeles), page 462, section A, part 1, entitled What Is a "State"? Britlawyer 23:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Do these texts refer explicitly to the cases under discussion here? If not, we'd still be left with original research. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Nagorno-Karabakh / Somaliland / Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus

There seems to be some inconsistency if the list includes Nagorno-Karabakh, Somaliland, and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus but not Transdniestria and Abkhazia. Britlawyer 15:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

All of them are not states and as per UN resolutions (latest SC Resolution) and recognitions Abkhazia is part of Georgia for good (de facto or not), as per the rest, the article title is "List of sovereign states." None are sovereign and none are even close to be sovereign. They all should be removed. Ldingley 16:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ldingley that all unrecognized countries should be removed from this "sovereign states" list and I propose to have a "See also" section where we will link to the List of unrecognized countries.--MariusM 19:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I would not object to removing these states from the list as well. Although, I should point out that do not know enough about Nagorno-Karabakh / Somaliland / Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus to make an educated decision (as I can in case of Abkhazia and South Ossetia). Irakliy81 18:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

All of them should be dealt with separately taking into account the inclusion criteria. Alternatively you could create a list of states recognised by UN. Alaexis 20:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion in the list means the entity is a "sovereign state". Is Wikipedia setting the criteria for what constitutes a "sovereign state"? Sounds like WP:OR and POV pushing.--Ploutarchos 21:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

No; no. The states that satisfy the inclusion criteria are listed here. Alaexis 05:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

And who decides if a particular entity satisfies the criteria? You? That's original research. Unless we have a reliable source saying that Transnistria etc are "sovereign states", they have no business in this list.--Ploutarchos 10:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

This is easily settled. If it quacks like a duck, one needs merely apply the test of qualifications. Doing so is not original research, or how else would one be able to compile a similar list. However, on 9 April 2007 and 14 April 2007 I wrote on this page that a source should be required for each contentious edit inclusion. Britlawyer 23:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Ploutarchos on this one. It may be just a duck test, but it's an original-research duck test all the same. And sorry, Britlawyer, your last argument doesn't hold: If you need original research in order to compile such a list, then the logical consequence is not that you should tolerate original research, but that you shouldn't be compiling the list. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Qualifications for sovereign statehood

Reading the comments on this page it seems that there is some confusion over how to interpret the Montevideo Convention as well as a belief that it is recognition by other states which makes a state a state in international law (the discarded "constitutive" theory of statehood).

The qualifications set forth in Montevideo adhere to the body of international law, inasmuch as they now form the basis for foreign relations law of most states in the world today. For example the Restatement of the Law Third, Restatement of the Foreign Relations Law of the United States, repeats the Montevideo qualifications, and its Comment elaborates on them. I refer to Restatement Section 201:

• Defined territory: An entity may satisfy the territorial requirement for statehood even if its boundaries have not been finally settled, if one or more of its boundaries are disputed, or if some of its territory is claimed by another state.

• Permanent population: To be a state an entity must have a population that is significant and permanent.

• Government: A state need not have any particular form of government, but there must be some authority exercising governmental functions and able to represent the entity in international relations.

• Capacity to conduct international relations: An entity is not a state unless it has competence, within its own constitutional system, to conduct international relations with other states, as well as the political, technical and financial capabilities to do so.

It would also be appropriate to mention Comment h of the Restatement Section 201: "Even if a state does not recognize another state, the Restatement agrees that the state is required to treat an entity as a state if it meets the standards of section 201." As it usual in public international law, enforcement is a different matter altogether, yet for the purposes of compiling a list we need not concern ourselves with enforcement but merely with the appropriate legal theory. Britlawyer 23:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Until sources are produced which specify that this applies to Transnistria etc, WP:OR applies. Either you have sources or you don't, are you going to be wasting our time for much longer? Or am I disrespectful for believing that you are not competent to decide whether individual regimes satisfy those criteria? I could easily interpret those as proving that Transnistria etc are not sovereign states - you wanna see how creative I can be?--Ploutarchos 08:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am a legal expert on international law. I don't have the time to assist your debate here BUT I can confirm under international law criteria Transnistria IS a sovereign country. The dispute is over its recognition and the rightful territorial ownership which the vast majority of countries believes that the territory currently controlled by the administration ( government) in Transnistria should be under the governance of Moldova. For now it is a sovereign state operating independently of its de-jure claimaint Republic Of Moldova Buffadren 08:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

NOTICE: Buffadren is a sham, a sock-puppet of banned supposed "Tiraspol Times" editor Mark Street.[6] —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

And I am the Pope of Rome incognito. (this is not meant as a personal attack, but as a reminder that Wikipedia already has a history of people lying about academic credentials). Dpotop 10:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I think you forgot that being an "expert in international law" should be useless on Wikipedia unless you have citations for your statements. Dpotop 10:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you any citations that "Transnistria is a sovereign country"?--Ploutarchos 08:17, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This is just appalling! We have all these self-proclaimed "experts" in international law prancing around, who all seem to be totally oblivious to the basic concept of citing one's authority. Despite the grandiose appeals to "customary international law" and all the ill-applied "legalese" that Transnistria, South Ossetia, Abkhazia etc fulfill those criteria, until sources are cited, it remains your opinion and falls under WP:OR. Nothing remotely resembling a source has been cited - an article in a good journal or a book by a respectable author, something, anything; just stop wasting people's time. Either you have sources or you don't. Now Buffadren has been blocked yet again so we'll have to wait for him to answer; and judging from the general attitude of most editors on this page (revert first then answer questions later only if I feel like it) this'll take forever... what's one to do, revert war?--Ploutarchos 08:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe that, in fact, sources have been cited, at least for Transnistria. john k 17:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

No. No source was cited saying explicitly that "Transnistria is sovereign". Dpotop 17:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

A source was cited which argued that Transnistria fulfilled the Montevideo criteria for statehood, iirc. The fact that "sovereignty" was not mentioned in Montevideo (also said below) is irrelevant. The use of "sovereign" in this article is merely disambiguation to distinguish sovereign states from states which are administrative subdivisions, like the states of Australia or the United States. john k 18:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I still don't understand why you say Montevideo=sovereignty. On one hand, the text of the Montevideo convention does not even contain the word "sovereignty". On the other, from "A implies B" and "B implies C" you should not deduce "A implies C" according to Wikipedia rules. Dpotop 19:31, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Montevideo provides a definition of a state. But what it obviously means is a "sovereign state," since it's not defining things like Brazilian or US states. That's all that "sovereign state" means - a state that isn't a subnational division. The use of "sovereign" is entirely to disambiguate. List of states would be ambiguous, since it would imply that Alabama and New South Wales and Minas Gerais and Sarawak should be listed. That is the only reason that "sovereign" appears in the title, so harping on the fact that Montevideo doesn't discuss "sovereignty" is silly. john k 19:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You still don't get it, do you? "Obviously" means nothing here, and "truth" or "common sense" or "common law" mean nothing unless you find sources to support it without making syllogisms. Dpotop 19:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

What source? Tiraspol Times?--Ploutarchos 19:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall. It was above. john k 19:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

---

This page is a non-sense. In Montevideo Convention the word sovereignty is not used.Dl.goe 16:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Obviously that is what is being dealt with, however. john k 17:19, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

As Mauco (one of the chief "Transnistria is sovereign" protagonists) has written in here, according to the "very narrow" definition of how "sovereignty" is described at top--a completely WP:OR fabrication--the frozen conflict zone "states" are "sovereign." The contentions of self-described experts on international law ascribing sovereignty to these territories (based on their expertise) is equally WP:OR.
    Who legally recognizes whom is the only legitimate litmus test, as sovereignty is about recognized legality of authority over a territory and its inhabitants. (Not about whether a territory is autonomous from its sovereign authority). There is no "de facto" sovereignty, again, WP:OR, which is what is being argued here.
    Sovereignty must be assigned or inherited to have a basis in international law. Moldova is sovereign over the Transnistrian territory until it formally cedes sovereignty over that territory to some other authority. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 21:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

No, who recognizes whom is absolutely not "the only legitimate litmus test," and sovereignty is not about recognized legality of authority. All sovereignty means is "supreme and independent power or authority in government as possessed or claimed by a state or community." It means the same thing as List of independent states. Again, I'm not going to say that Montevideo should be the way we do this, but it sums up one of the two main ways that states have historically been defined, and it is apparently the more broadly used one. The claim that recognition is the only valid way to define statehood is ridiculous. And the basic issue we are debating here is the question of statehood. john k 00:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Correct, as recognition is merely an indicator of sovereignty but one which in itself does not confer sovereignty onto an entity,. Nor does it follow that a state is necessarily absent of sovereignty in cases where it is, temporarily or permanently, absent of recognition. In other words, while there is a link, the link can clearly not be applied in factitious manner to make recognition a criteria for sovereignty as this would be inconsistent with international law. I shall provide references if requested. Britlawyer 16:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

"Sovereignty"

I just wanted to note more fully here what I mentioned above, which is that far too much of the discussion here resolves around definitions of "sovereignty." This is basically irrelevant. This article could just as easily be titled List of states, save that that title would be ambiguous, in that it would imply the inclusion of subnational entities called "states," like those in the US, Brazil, Australia, Malaysia, Nigeria, Venezuela, India, and so forth. The use of the word "sovereign" is entirely in order to indicate that we are not talking about such entities. We should not be arguing about the meaning of "sovereignty", because that word is there solely in order to distinguish what meaning of the word "state" we are using. And the key word here, then, is "state," not "sovereign." These constant attacks on Montevideo as a valid description of the customary theory of statehood, and so forth, are becoming quite irritating. (And I say this as someone who is by no means all that supportive of listing South Ossetia, et al, on this page). john k 20:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Then rename the list. Dpotop 21:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to rename the list. List of sovereign states merely means List of states, where "state" is limited to refer to sovereign states, as opposed to things like Alabama. I'm not going to prejudge whether South Ossetia or Transnistria is a state under Montevideo. And I'm not going to say that Montevideo should necessarily be the criterion for determining what is a sovereign state in this article. All I'm going to say is that Montevideo's definition of a "state" is clearly a definition of a "sovereign state," and any attempt to claim otherwise is pure sophistry. john k 23:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The whole reason this article is not called "List of states" is because of the WP:OR contentions around the "sovereignty" of arguably autonomous but in no way legally sovereign regions. As long as the title remains, we will continue arguing: one camp insisting that conforming to a narrow interpretation of part of part of Montevideo constitutes meeting the "requirements" (and in what sphere are they, even? certainly not any legal sphere) for ascribing "de facto sovereigny" to a territory; the other camp insisting that sovereignty has its basis in law, and that sovereignty over a territory/people cannot be ceded by/taken from a sovereign authority without due process of assignment or inheritance (ex injuria non jus oritur).

    P.S. On the related topic, differentiating between "States" and "states" would address the ambiguity mentioned. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 21:27, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand your first sentence. john k 23:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I meant that the word "sovereign" is in the article title to push the POV that certain states included in the list are fully sovereign (thereby ascribing legitimacy): de jure, true capacity for unencumbered international relations, etc. when they are clearly not. I agree with Dov Lynch that sovereignty cannot exist without recognized legitimacy. That is perhaps why Montevideo does not use the word sovereign--avoiding the whole topic of legitimacy. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Abkhazia, South Ossetia or Nagorny-Karabakh ARE NOT sovereign states and they don’t belong to the list. Its definitely a POV attempt and therefore should be treated seriously. These self proclaimed states, separatist enclaves and regimes can not be treated as sovereign states. Please see the title of this article. To include them as such is a POV and completely disregard to jurisprudence and international law. Abkhazia for example has legal authority which does not recognize that separatist flag so to show only separatist flag of Abkhazia is POV. Same story for South Ossetia. Therefore, to avoid further confrontation and violation of NPOV and also of international law, these separatist regimes or enclaves should be removed from the list of sovereign states. I think many people don’t understand the term sovereign state. Ldingley 21:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the list of petitoners. We also petiton for sources designating them as sovereign states - we are ignored in both cases.Ploutarchos 21:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ploutarchos, There are no sources designating these enclaves as separate states or sovereign states. Take Abkhazia as an example. Abkhaz separatist regime does not have any official foreign relations with any country (even Russia). This regime does not include all population of Abkhazia, the majority of the population was ethnically cleansed and all of 300,000 people are now outside of that region. Latest UN SC resolution on Abkhazia proves every point which has been discussed before, they are not states and they even don’t have a single chance to become one. All members of UN including SC recognized and urged other UN countries to respect the territorial integrity of Georgia. Therefore, this list of sovereign states is attempting to legalize the separatist claim which is POV and violation of our NPOV policy and total ignorance of international law and UN resolutions. Moreover, nobody will take this list as serious and the integrity of data accuracy of Wikipedia will suffer just because some users want these regions to be sovereign. Ldingley 14:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

While a statement about the motives of some contributors might well be true in individual cases, it should not be applied to all contributors who hold a diverging opinion from your own, nor should it be applied to broadly characterize the list or article itself. It is of essential importance to have begin with the accurately defined premise of what makes an entity sovereign under international law, and as such, the Montevideo Convention is one appropriate source. It should not, however, be the only source, and where other sources diverge from Montevideo this needs to be addressed. You can contribute more to this discussion by bringing reliable sources than by questioning the motives of the creators and contributors to this list, because only once the established criteria for sovereign statehood have been defined in accordance with accepted sources will it be possible to determine the extent to which Abkhazia et el may merit inclusion on this list. At such point, further sources will be required and no entity should be included without sources that certify how it meets the established criteria, the threshold for inclusion if you will.Britlawyer 16:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for Mediation

I'd like to put on a mediation request concerning the appropriateness of "List of Sovereign States" as a title for this article given its current content. I would like to focus on the difference of POV between me and JohnK, which seems to be the main supporter of the name. In particular, JohnK says, I cite:

There is no need to rename the list. List of sovereign states merely means List of states, where "state" is limited to refer to sovereign states, as opposed to things like Alabama. I'm not going to prejudge whether South Ossetia or Transnistria is a state under Montevideo. And I'm not going to say that Montevideo should necessarily be the criterion for determining what is a sovereign state in this article. All I'm going to say is that Montevideo's definition of a "state" is clearly a definition of a "sovereign state," and any attempt to claim otherwise is pure sophistry.

I claim this does not correspond to Wikipedia rules, for at least two fundamental reasons:

1. Wikipedia explicitly forbid the use of original research in articles. So, "Transnistria is a sovereign state" only if you found a reference for it.
2. The fact that some international convention should be interpreted or not in some way is not the problem of Wikipedia, whose purpose is not politics.

So, JohnK, do you accept to go to mediation? Dpotop 07:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree not only its original research but strong negative POV which will lead into more confrontation and dispute. None of these “states” are sovereign according to any convention. And there can be no reliable source which will say otherwise. Ldingley 14:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

What about renaming the article if it's the word sovereign that makes so much people unhappy? Alaexis 14:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

List of states would be alright with me, I guess, although it seems unnecessary. I don't think it would actually solve anything, though, and the word "sovereign" would still have to be used at some point in the introduction to indicate that we are not discussing sub-national divisions like Alabama or dependent territories like Gibraltar. This is all much ado about nothing. You guys are not all disputing whether or not South Ossetia is a sovereign state or a non-sovereign state. You are arguing about whether or not it is a state at all. Removing the word "sovereign" from the title would do no good, and the focus on the word "sovereign" is a way to get around arguing the actual merits, which would consist of either a) trying to demonstrate that South Ossetia, et al, do not constitute states under Montevideo/the declarative theory of statehood; or b) trying to demonstrate that the declarative theory of statehood is not the proper test for this list. I am sympathetic to a, and not entirely out of sympathy with b, but this argument over the word "sovereign" and attempts to claim that Montevideo is not merely an inappropriate criterion, but that it's an irrelevant one, are pointless. I don't know that I'd accept mediation, because, as I said, this is a sideshow. john k

Imho, the word sovereign could be avoided. What about replacing it with independent and mentioning that unrecognised states are only de facto independent? All these entities are frequently described as such (refs upon request). Alaexis 16:01, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

What is the basis for the claim that "sovereign" means anything different from "de facto independent"? As far as I can gather, they mean more or less the same thing. john k 17:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The difference is that unrecognised countries are often called de facto independent but they are almost never called sovereign. Would you support the renaming? Alaexis 18:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I would not oppose a move to List of independent states, but I don't think it would actually resolve very much. john k 19:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I see no mediation request, only a link to notability. Mediation can be a solution. We should define the subject of mediation. I would suggest the exclusion of the 5 unrecognized stated (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Somaliland, Nagorno-Karabagh), also of Northern Cyprus, which is recognized by only one country (Turkey) from this list.--MariusM 15:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The title "List of sovereign states" is helpful and should not be changed, insofar as it is a descriptive which helps distinguish the list content from other (non-sovereign) states. Apparently there is confusion among contributors as to what qualifies as a state under international law, so it will be helpful to define this issue first, and then deal with the second issue afterwards. It may be that after the definition of sovereign statehood has been clarified, some entities which are currently included on the list will be excluded, but this will be impossible to do if not a proper definition of sovereign statehood has been settled upon prior. As such, I oppose mediation at the current point in time, as it would be a case of acting prematurely while the proper premise for the article is not yet defined. Specify the criteria for sovereign statehood first as it is commonly defined in international law.--Britlawyer 16:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm aware what the criteria are. What I'm disputing is that Transnistria, TRNC etc actually fulfill those criteria, and without a source saying they do (or otherwise designating them as such), I oppose including them. As for the title, I'm neutral.--Ploutarchos 17:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This stated clarity on criteria definition does not appear to be shared by all. Please read John Kenney's comment on sideshow in this section, and the statements of contributor Dpotop questioning the Montevideo criteria, which he also included in a box on the list itself. Similar concerns have been raised in recent days by contributor named Pēters J. Vecrumba. Seeing how this is so, it would be appropriate to first define the criteria and then examine, with sources in each case, the extent to which Transnistria, Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, etc., may meet these qualifications and thus merit inclusion on this list. I am not familiar with mediation but it would appear that defining the inclusion criteria would be straightforward, and that a subsequent point by point examining in questionable cases will also be a task that can be settled merely on the basis of the sources provided. -- Britlawyer 17:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Guys, here is about sovereign states not about unrecognized dictatorial regimes. --ARISTOKLES 20:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Sovereignty may also not be expressed through some form of de facto control as contrasted with de jure international recognition. Taiwan, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC), Transnistria (TMR), Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, South Ossetia, Somaliland and Kosovo are some examples of political entities, which find it difficult to fit into the international legal framework. Most self-proclaimed pseudo-states are the end products of partition rather than simple degeneration of the ways at which one political entity becomes two or more new states, each or one of which may see itself as the legitimate heir to the raison d’étre of the unit, which existed prior to partition.

For me partition is the solution of ‘last resort’ because of the way it brings about sovereignty changes. I consider partition as a meeting point between the needs for selfdetermination and the territorial expression of some of these needs whereas without the intervention of outside forces it is likely that the sovereignty dispute will either be solved by some less drastic measure or not at all.

Once partition has occurred the host states seek to gain territorial control over the part that seceded. One potentially successful way of dealing with these types of conflicts is federalisation with the attempt to pool sovereignty and disperse territoriality. Should one destroy territory and territoriality? Should one withdraw the grounds on which politicians perform securitisations and thus continuously reify identities?

Or should one make conflicting parties believe in win-win games while external actors force them to accept the peace deals? Yet, sticky questions of territoriality and sovereignty continue to be at the core of conflict resolution schemes.

For example, let's take Cyprus and Moldova. Why Cyprus and Moldova? I have strong reasons to believe that these cases are comparable since the conflicts demonstrate similar patterns. First, both conflicts evolved from the same ground: Turkish Cypriots being dissatisfied with Greek Cypriots irredenta with Greece, seceded, whereas the formation of TMR was a reaction to the Moldovan language law and to the lack of self-determination guarantees in the event of Chisinau deciding to rejoin Romania. Second, both conflicts involve influential external players: TRNC relies on Turkey and TMR is supported by Russia. Third, both conflicts have been frozen for decades and various federalisation plans have contributed very little to peace making. My argument here is that both internal (zero-sum perception) and external (geopolitical interests) forces work against conflict resolution and even if parties to the conflict have the best intentions to agree on shared sovereignty, territoriality and de facto control over the territory remain of primary concern for both parties in the conflicts.

Sovereignty and territoriality are concepts not to be taken for granted but instead to be perceived as in flux. Sovereignty is not only dispersed or pooled but also accumulated. Territory makes sense as long as there are attempts to strive for new nation-states or to maintain the territorial integrity of the old ones. One may argue that the less important territoriality nowadays is the more complex and multifaceted the issue of sovereignty becomes. Hence, all polities carry the idea of a single governmental jurisdiction over a single territory and look jealously on power-sharing with others. This reveals the very notion of territoriality, or a spatial strategy, which is based on affecting or influencing people and resources by controlling the territory.

1955 marked the start of the serious bi-communal clashes when Greek-Cypriot guerillas began their struggle against the British and their close allies – Turkish-Cypriot police forces. After the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus in 1960, violence erupted again in 1963, when about 200 Turkish-Cypriots were killed by Greek- Cypriot extreme nationalists. The following UN intervention resulted in physical separation of the two communities by the Green Line. The Turkish-Cypriots were driven into enclaves where they continued to live intermittently until 1974, after the Turkish military intervened and took control of the northern part of the island. During a short (20 July–16 August 1974) and bloody conflict around 3,500 people were killed and 2,000 were reported as missing. Out of the total community of 574,000 some 180,000 became refugees.

1989 signifies the beginning of the emancipation process from the Soviet Union during which pro-independence Moldovans conflicted with so-called soyuzniki with a different ethnic mix (Russians, Ukrainians and Russified Moldovans) residing on the left bank of the river Dniester. The first armed clashes between the Transnistrian separatists and Moldovan police units occurred in November 1990. Fighting intensified on 19 June 1992 when a large-scale military operation involving the Russian 14th Army took control of the city Tighina/Bendery, situated on the right side of the Dniester but claimed by the TMR authorities. The fighting caused several hundreds of deaths and some 100,000 refugees and led finally to de facto partition.--ARISTOKLES 21:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

External actors

Geopolitical incentives of external players have favoured partition in Cyprus and Moldova. This brings us to Turkish interests in Cyprus, which aim at protecting the Turkish Cypriots against the much larger Greek Cypriot community It is equally important to secure the country’s southern coastline as Turkey’s only ‘secure supply line’. With plans to build a pipeline to carry oil and gas from Azerbaijan and Central Asia to the southern Turkish bay of Ceyhan, the strategic importance of Northern Cyprus for Turkey has increased. The key outside player in Moldova is Russia and to a large extent, the continuation of Transnistrian secession will depend on the negotiations between Russia, Ukraine and Romania. Russia is interested in keeping Moldova in its sphere of influence that has traditionally served as Russia’s gateway to the Balkans and remains vital considering the events in former Yugoslavia.--ARISTOKLES 21:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you present your arguments in a more concise manner? See also the discussion about the renaming of the article above and seek the consensus before making substantial changes. Alaexis 21:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

To present my arguments in a more concise manner: there aren't any recognized, sovereign states the one that I delisted. Good bye.--ARISTOKLES 21:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

While it's true that those states are not recognised that doesn't mean they are not sovereign/de facto independent (I prefer the second term, see discussion above). See Montevideo Convention, for example. If you want I could give the examples of these countries called de facto independent in neutral sources. Alaexis 21:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

No sources that the Montevideo criteria are fulfilled in the cases of these entities. Clear case of WP:OR.--Ploutarchos 21:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I know Montevideo Convention by heart, what exactly are you trying to say? Be more concise please, if you can. ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 21:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Is the debate here whether the TRNC can be referred to as a state, or whether it is sovereign? --A.Garnet 22:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not know much about some of the ‘de facto’ independent states listed in this article but I know a lot about Abkhazia and South Ossetia. By no means should these entities be considered ‘sovereign’ or any kind of states. They are not ‘de facto’ independent. If anything they are ‘de facto’ part of Russia. The best way to refer to them is “disputed territories.” Irakliy81 01:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Mediation, part 2

I still don't have a clear answer from JohnK and the others concerning the proposed RfM. I saw that JohnK proposed the transformation of "List of Sovereign States" into "List of States". I think this is a good first step if you want to preserve Transnistria, Abkhazia, and the likes in the list. If you all accept this step, I see no need for mediation. Dpotop 07:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I am actually against preserving Abkhazia and South Ossetia on the list. They are not states; neither "sovereign" nor any other. Irakliy81 16:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I sort of agree with Irakliy. Not about whether Abkhazia or South Ossetia should be on the list - I remain agnostic about that. But I do agree that the key question is whether or not they are "states". If they are states, then they are by necessity sovereign states. If they are not states, then they're not. That's the real issue. If List of states or List of independent states would make people happier, that's fine with me, but it doesn't resolve the issue. john k 17:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What sovereign states are Abkhazia or South Ossetia or Transnistria or TRNC? That's the worst joke. --ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 19:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

No its a funnies joke Ldingley 20:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

This article is a subject of debates for long time, I don't see anything new appearing in the debates, only repetition of old arguments. I agree with Irakliy, states without any recognition must not be in this list. I am confused about Taiwan, which was an UN member for a time (it had international recognition), but even in this case if we keep it, we need clear explanations about its status (Taiwan itself never officially asked secession from China, it claims being the "true" representant of entire chinese nation). I understand that there are people with other views, instead of revert warring maybe mediation can be an option. Let see for the begining the opinion of editors, to see if mediation is necessary, and if yes, how we start it.--MariusM 19:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• Remove Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, TRNC, Nagorno-Karabagh, Somaliland. Neutral about Taiwan. Add a "See also" section with links to disputed territories.--MariusM 19:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• Remove Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, TRNC, Nagorno-Karabagh, Somaliland. Ldingley 19:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

If the purpose of this article is to list independent entities of the world de facto independent ones should be present (with appropriate footnotes). How to name this list is another question (List of states, List of independent states, List of independent countries or something else). Alaexis 20:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't we list the de facto countries in a separate section? Why is there absolutely no will to compromise here? And one can "name them independent, sovereign countries" because they act in most ways like independent countries. john k 20:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What in the world are you talking about? How is it biased and POV to have one list for "generally recognized states" and then another list on the same page noting de facto states with little to no diplomatic recognition? That Abkhazia, et al, are de facto states is not OR - the status of these entities is widely written about. john k 22:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

How about because it forks List of unrecognized countries? IMO that article needs looking at too - real encyclopedias like Britannica call them things like "separatist enclaves" etc. If the term "unrecognized country" exists in a real encyclopedia, I'd very much like to hear of it.---Ploutarchos 23:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Forking like that isn't necessarily a POV issue, and sometimes there's reason to have the same information in multiple articles. "Unrecognized country", btw, is certainly a stupid term, in that it doesn't make sense. It ought to be "unrecognized de facto state" or "unrecognized state." Certainly Somaliland qualifies as that, and Britannica describes it, btw, as a "self-declared independent country." john k 23:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

About sovereignty

Existing theories of state formation struggle to explain such practices, as they overlook the crucial role that the construction of collective interests and identities plays in state formation. Materialist accounts explain the development of states and the states system as a function of the world economy, and regard the ‘homogenisation’ of peoples as a necessary function of this process which is driven by economic interests. Institutionalist accounts also take the economic motivation of actors as a given, though from a position of methodological individualism. In both accounts the construction of interests and identities within the state is left unexplored. Power-based explanations take for granted the interest of state-builders in the accumulation of the means of violence within the sovereign state. Although such explanations pay attention to the processes of internal pacification that were an important part of early modern state-building, they see this as a function of the administrative centralisation of states, rather than a phenomenon that needs further explanation.

The central argument of my explanation is that state formation has a crucial cultural dimension, a dimension overlooked by other theories of state formation, which regard culture, if they mention it at all, as merely an instrument of either economic or procrustean interests. State-builders must establish their right to rule, as well as the legitimacy of the political order they seek to establish or consolidate. This involves two tasks: the construction of a unified political community within the bounds of their territorial rule – a community with a single, cohesive identity – and the identification of the monarch or the national government as the political embodiment or representative of that unified community.

State-builders cannot do otherwise than draw upon the prevailing cultural resources available to them as they seek to build a unified collective identity, and in doing so mark out the boundaries of the sovereign state as the boundary of a moral community.

In drawing on the available cultural resources, state-builders contribute towards changing the very framework on which they draw. For example, early modern state-builders drew on the prevailing religious world view when defining insiders and outsiders, but in so doing they contributed towards the development of the secular world view as they rearticulated religious beliefs which no longer had universal normative purchase across Western Europe.

What is sovereign state

There are many aspects to the modern sovereign state. The term is used by me here in two ways: the first to denote the state as government, ‘the collective set of personnel who occupy positions of decisional authority in the polity’. The second is to denote a ‘normative order’, which, in turn, elites play an important, though by no means exclusive, part in constructing. The term state-building refers to those practices which elites have more or less consciously employed to consolidate and centralise power within clearly demarcated territorial boundaries. As we shall see, these practices draw on symbolic as well as material resources. For example, early modern state-builders, such as Ferdinand and Isabella, who in the fifteenth century laid the foundations for the Spanish state, were much less consciously engaged in ‘state-building’ than contemporary leaders such as Slobodan Milosevic, who was intent on building a strong (and expanded, to take in all Serbs) Serbian state in the wake of the breakdown of Yugoslavia. Yet the Spanish monarchs and modern nationalists have been involved in similar projects of political consolidation, and the strategies of symbolic manipulation they employ as they attempt to legitimate their authority have much in common.

Despite their many differences, these two cases share the use of what I term ‘pathological homogenisation’ as a means of state-building. This refers to the methods state-builders have used to define the state as a normative order and to cultivate identification through targeting those designated as outsiders for discriminatory and often violent treatment. According to current international standards of human rights and legitimate state behaviour these means are unacceptable. No such standards existed in the earliest phases of state-building, as Christian universalism lost its normative purchase and state-builders abrogated the authority of the Church, but to describe such methods as ‘pathological’ is not anachronistic. Such practices have without exception damaged the body politic, despite the benefits that state-builders may perceive, and they have invariably caused human suffering on a vast scale. From very early on in the development of the international system, voices have been raised to question policies so destructive in human and other terms. For example, in the early seventeenth century, Cardinal Richelieu described the expulsion of the Moriscos (Christianised Moors) from Spain as ‘barbaric’, giving voice to misgivings felt by many at the time about the methods used in this action by the Spanish monarchy, including taking small children from their families.

I use the term ‘pathological homogenisation’ to designate a number of different strategies that state-builders have employed to signify the unity of their state and the legitimacy of their authority through the creation of an ostensibly unified population. These strategies range from attempts to legally exclude minority groups from citizenship rights, to strategies of forced conversion or assimilation, expulsion and extermination. Although these strategies have had very different impacts on those unfortunate enough to be subjected to them, they are all a means to the end of creating a ‘homogeneous’ population within the boundaries of the sovereign state. For those who pursue such policies, they serve to symbolise and create a ‘purer’ and thus more unitary sovereign identity within the state, a more unified ‘imagined community’ to use Benedict Anderson’s phrase.

In the pursuit of a homogeneous collective identity within the state various assimilatory policies have been practised. Forced religious conversion is one means of forcibly assimilating a minority within a dominant identity. Such policies often result in the mass movement of people attempting to avoid forced conversion, as occurred in late seventeenth-century France, when French Protestants fled their homeland when their religion was outlawed. In some cases, forced conversion may be posed as a choice: convert or leave. This was the ‘choice’ presented to Spanish Jews in the fifteenth century. Many did convert to Christianity while others who wished to maintain their Jewish identity were expelled from the state, resulting in the end of the official existence of the Jewish community in Spain. Expulsion may also be ordered with no ‘choice’ of any other alternative, except perhaps death or imprisonment. In 1609 the Moriscos were not presented with any other alternative but to leave Spain and numerous examples of expulsions can be found in the history of the international system. These include ‘population exchanges’ such as those between Greece and Turkey early in the twentieth century; the massive displacement of ethnic Germans in Europe following World War II; and the exchange of populations between India and Pakistan at partition, to name just a few. In the twentieth century, as the bureaucratic and technological capacity of the state has increased, mass murder and genocide have increasingly been used as pathological means of homogenisation by state-builders. The intent here goes beyond expulsion to the wholesale removal of the targeted group through obliteration. Forced conversion (though by no means an attractive option) has become less thinkable in the age of national criteria of identification, linked, as these often are, to notions of racial or ethnic identity as inherent in the individual and therefore unchanging. In the case of the genocide of the Armenian people of 1915– 16, there were cases of Christian Armenians converting to Islam in order to avoid death (particularly children who were taken into Muslim families), but few were given this option in a genocide in which religious criteria had become inextricably bound up with national criteria of identification. A conception of racial identity as inherent in the person was also behind the Holocaust. A similar view of ‘ethno-national’ identity as inherent in the person and unchanging, ironically marked out through religious affiliation, informs the virulent ethno-nationalism seen in action during the attempts at statebuilding which followed the fragmentation of Yugoslavia. From such a viewpoint, expulsion or extermination become much more likely policy ‘options’ than conversion.

I have sought to trace the role this process plays in the construction of the boundaries of states as moral boundaries. Where a number of scholars investigate how the sovereign state is ‘written’, through the practices of theorists and diplomats.

State interests are considered relevant but the most basic interests are assumed to be identical for all states and driven by the nature of the system: all states have an interest in survival in an anarchical system, which is best pursued through strategies of self-help based on zero-sum calculations. Neoliberal theorists, though interested in how states cooperate under anarchy, accept the realist model of states as self-interested, rational and unitary actors. As a consequence, they too explicitly bracket off the role of collective identity construction in state-building as they also take the identities and interests of actors on the international stage for granted. Over the last two decades of the twentieth century mainstream approaches have been subjected to criticisms from a number of different perspectives. Once the state was ‘brought back in’ to both social theory and international relations theory in the 1980s, this opened up consideration of how states, rather than being pre-social ‘facts’, are constituted through social, political and cultural practices. From this perspective, the state is seen as a normative order, and it is intersubjectively constructed normative values that provide the unifying standards and symbols that legitimate authority and allow us to perceive the state as a unitary and sovereign actor. Thus, sovereignty ‘is negotiated out of interaction within intersubjectively identifiable communities’ and it is this institution which legitimates ‘the state’ as an agent in international social life.

Cyprus, Abkhazia, Transnistria, South Ossetia

Why, then, was a homogenised population deemed desirable as sovereign states emerged from the breakdown of heteronomous and imperial structures of authority? To answer this question a different understanding of ‘interests’ that recognises that they can be constructed in different ways, is necessary. This allows consideration of how the perceived need for an unambiguous unitary identity could become the highest priority of state-builders, despite the economic and political costs this might entail. This question will be taken up at greater length in the section below on the role of culture in political life, and will be returned to in each of the case studies on pathological homogenisation.

If we look at the competitors to the sovereign state we see a great many differences. City leagues had no internal borders, no hierarchy, no agreements on weights or currency, and diverse legal codes. Sovereign actors benefited from the leagues’ lack of unity. Importantly, lack of a clearly defined sovereign authority made it hard for the leagues to credibly commit to international agreements.

Of particular importance in understanding this widespread culture of various forms of abuse is one central and overriding fact: virtually all governments regarded how they treated those under their control and the policies they pursued as a matter exclusively within their own jurisdiction. Emperors, pharaohs, caesars, khans, sultans, tsars, kings and eventually prime ministers and presidents all argued that they and the territory they ruled were completely independent and sovereign. How they treated their own people and how they advanced their own interests, including the use of violence and the waging of war as the final arbiter of disputes, were considered their own business and not subject to any outside international standards, scrutiny, criticism or interference.

The Treaty of Westphalia signed in 1648 following the Thirty Years War provided recognition, in law as well as in fact, of the power and the authority of sovereign, independent states. Only they could be considered subjects of international law and no international jurisdiction existed to hold individuals criminally responsible for their actions. They recognized no universal authority, such as that of an emperor or a pope or an international organization from above, and no claims from feudal barons or subjects from below. The publication of Leviathan only three years later provided even further theoretical justification for the doctrine, particularly when Thomas Hobbes addressed what he described as ‘‘the essence of sovereignty’’. Here he left no doubt about his belief that the sovereign powers of the state and the absolute monarch who acted in its name ruled without challenge, doing ‘‘whatsoever he shall think necessary to be done’’. This is my full explanation of what 'sovereign state' is and is not. --ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 19:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Abkhazia violates even the so called Montevideo Convention and does not meets its standards of the state. The population of Abkhazia (majority of it) was expelled by force by the small well armed separatist insurgency. This separatist regime has no “foreign relations” with any state officially (even with its political master, Russia). Anyway, you cant harmonize all so called de facto “independent” “states” because all of them differ radically. UN resolutions which emphasize the territorial integrity of Georgia for example, OSCE, EU Parliament, EU Counsel and NATO proclamations and resolution go hand in hand with UN. There is attempt on this article to say otherwise due to some allegiances for separatist causes. This is unacceptable for encyclopedia web. There are no valid and reliable sources (primary or secondary) which indicate that those de facto “independent states” are sovereign countries. Primary source which are UN resolutions put Abkhazia within Georgian jurisdiction. Therefore, this claim which is not only dubious but extremely biased and controversial should be removed from this article. Ldingley 20:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to note, the point of the Montevideo point of "ability to engage in diplomatic relations" is so as to exclude entities which, according to their own internal constitutions, cannot engage in diplomatic relations. This is referring to entities like Alabama or Gibraltar or Scotland. It does not refer to de facto states which have foreign ministers, and so forth, but which simply are not de jure recognized by other countries. At least, this is the gloss on that point given by just about every gloss of it I've ever come across. john k 22:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Aristokles, please, cease adding all this text. You are disrupting the discussion here, because the dispute is not theory of statehood against theory of statehood, but legal theory vs. Wikipedia rules. Dpotop 20:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules are against original research, not to mention POV pushing. Not only this article violates international law, jurisprudence but also Wikipedia guidlines. Ldingley 20:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not governed by international law, nor jurisprudence. The only rules that apply here are the rules of Wikipedia. Dpotop 20:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Changes

I see that all the replies are all either against keeping SO, NK, and T, or neutral. I will remove them from the list, which makes the list correct from a technical Wikipedia point (I believe). The changes were already made by someone else. Dpotop 20:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

All de facto regimes should be removed from the list. Nobody has intention to recognize them as sovereign, please refer to UN resolutions. If someone takes over and declares independence over some territory, it doe snot mean they are sovereign. There were no valid sources or references to support the sovereign status of these regimes. Ldingley 20:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a very strong chance that Somaliland will be recognized at some point - the sticking point largely arises out of the fact that Somalia at present, has no de facto government which could negotiate Somalilander independence. And, once again, "sovereign status" is a red herring. All sovereignty means is independence. john k 20:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You're being disruptive. We are not talking about the future here or the chances that one political entitiy will be or not be a sovereign state. Please stop being disruptive. --ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 20:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

To those who claim that these "states" may be recognized in the future :) read WP:CRYSTAL --ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 21:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, cease this dispute, because it is pointless according to Wikipedia rules.? Whether the country will or will not be recognized is not important. The only thing that matters is the lack of decent sources saying that those countries are sovereign. Please, recall that this is Wikipedia, and we are only supposed to report what sources say, not to make original research.

Once the BBC says that Somaliland/SO/NK/T is sovereign, I will support including it in this list. Dpotop 20:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Until now it's a clear case of WP:OR. I can't accept inclusion of TRNC, Somaliland, Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia in the list of sovereign states. I can't agree with extreme bias and POV pushing. I know Montevideo Convention by heart and I can't be fooled around easy.--ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 20:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with Aristotle. This attempt to include de facto regimes of those separatist enclaves as sovereign countries was POV and based on original research which BTW does not have any reliable source or reference. Ldingley 21:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I asked Alaexis to give me UN links and sources that all those are included in the UN list. He's still searching for them.--ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 21:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Heh BBC is not international body which governs international law/jurisprudence. Only UN and UN SC can make the decision through voting on sovereign status of any nation/state and admit them into their organization. That’s why its important to pay attention to UN resolutions and use them as primary source.Ldingley 21:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I ask people to see the way Alaexis is pushing his POV at Abkhazia. See [7] [8] [9]. That region is not on the list of UN as "independent state". This has to be quickly remediated.--ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 21:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Latest UN SC resolution on Abkhazia, UN Security Council Resolution 1752 (April 13, 2007). [10]

“1. Reaffirms the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Georgia within its internationally recognized borders, and supports all efforts by the United Nations and the Group of Friends of the Secretary-General which are guided by their determination to promote a settlement of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict only by peaceful means and within the framework of the Security Council resolutions;

All UN resolutions (see United Nations resolutions on Abkhazia) recognize the territorial integrity of Georgia and therefore there can be no talk of any sovereignty. All members of UN (including Russia) supported those resolutions. Ldingley 21:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Correct. --ΑΡΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ ^{(πείτε μου)} 21:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

On what basis do you claim that it is the UN, rather than facts on the ground, which determine sovereignty? john k 04:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The conflict, as I see it.

There's clearly a clash of ideas here. Here are the proposals of the various editors, as I read them along the lines:

• User:Alaexis and User:Khoikhoi, want to include those 4/5 disputed entities in the article, while accepting to change the title of the article to exclude the word "sovereignty". This approach poses a problem to User:JohnK, who says that "state=sovereign state" anyway.
• Some other editors involved in this discussion propose the removal of those entities, or just part of them, based on various arguments, including:
  • Lack of sources explicitly calling those entities "sovereign".
  • Lack of compliance to Montevideo.
  • Montevideo does not mention "sovereignty".

If we exclude users Alaexis and Khoikhoi, the removal of the 4/5 entities from the list is consensual (regardless of various nuances).

Am I right in saying this? Dpotop 11:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, almost. If you look at the article's recent history you'll see that there are more people who support 'old' version. Alaexis 11:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Who, exactly? Dpotop 12:08, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

On the second thought I'd like to reformulate my previous message as I cannot read others' thoughts to say who do they support really. There were several users (User:Dimts, User:A.Garnet, User:Britlawyer) who reverted the article to the 'old' version for some reasons. User:Buffadren also supported inclusion of Transnistria here (talkpage, 08:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)). How is it relevant to the dispute, btw? Wikipedia isn't a democracy, after all. Alaexis 12:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Not relevant in theory. But if WP:OR was respected here, this entire discussion would be pointless, because you have no reputable source calling those entities "sovereign". WP:OR is not respected. In fact, I seem to be the only one here caring about actual sources, whereas you guys play with your lawyerly arguments. Weird enough, not even Khoikhoi cares about WP:OR, and he's an admin, if I recall well. Dpotop 13:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Alex you still fail to present any source or valid reference for your claims. I think there is no need of me going further in this discussion. You version is unacceptable due to its POV and therefore should be removed. Ldingley 13:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Why should I bring any sources calling those entities "sovereign"? I'm for changing the article's name. Alaexis 13:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't really care about the name of this article, but what name do you intend to use?

If it's "List of states" then you must include all the 50 states of the US, plus those of Mexico, a.s.o., for which citations exist calling them "states".

If it's "List of independent states", you must find sources calling those entities "independent".

In fact, what do you propose as a change? Dpotop 13:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

"List of independent states" is ok to me although there could be other variants. The entities in question are really often called 'de facto independent'. See "January 2006 Georgia (UNOMIG)" by Security Council Report; "Years of “frozen conflict” leave Abkhazia isolated and poor. The Lancet, Volume 367, Issue 9516, Pages 1043-1045", http://www.c-r.org/resources/occasional-papers/abkhazia-ten-years-on.php, http://www.lib.unb.ca/Texts/JCS/Chechnya.htm . That's just a few examples for Abkhazia. Other unrecognised countries are also called 'de facto' independent. Alaexis 14:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Dpotop, are you actually serious? An article called List of states could not clarify that it is referring to states under international law, and not national subdivisions like U.S. or Mexican states? That's completely outrageous. john k 15:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and it is also incorrect to create an artificial link between sovereignty and recognition since sovereignty is not directly tied to recognition, since many of today's recognized states have been through periods of no recognition or limited recognition at various times in history.--Britlawyer 14:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Aleaxis, you are confusing the descriptive term “de facto independent” with the formal definition of “independent state”. The entities in question are commonly called “de facto independent” (occasionally even “quasi-states”) to underscore their actual status in relation with the countries they have broken away from, but this does not make them really independent STATES. Kober^Talk 14:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

What's the formal definition of “independent state”, btw? Alaexis 14:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC) This is a question to Kober, actually )). Alaexis 15:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I quote from the Third Edition of "International Law" by Carter, Trimble, page 462: "A "state" in international law is what we often refer to as a country (like the United States of America or Japan), and is not one of the 50 U.S. states (such as California). Whether an entity is a state or not is a question that arises only occasionally, such as in the case of "associated territories" (entities without full control over their foreign relations) or in the event of secession. The Montevideo Convention of 1933, ratified by 16 Western Hemisphere countries (including the United States), provided in Article I: "The State as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) capacity to enter into relations with other states." The Restatement repeats these qualifications, and its Comment elaborates on them." Please note that I have posted the Comment to 201 before.

• Defined territory: An entity may satisfy the territorial requirement for statehood even if its boundaries have not been finally settled, if one or more of its boundaries are disputed, or if some of its territory is claimed by another state.

• Permanent population: To be a state an entity must have a population that is significant and permanent.

• Government: A state need not have any particular form of government, but there must be some authority exercising governmental functions and able to represent the entity in international relations.

• Capacity to conduct international relations: An entity is not a state unless it has competence, within its own constitutional system, to conduct international relations with other states, as well as the political, technical and financial capabilities to do so.

This is the United States definition. There are also official definitions of what constitutes a State (same as independent state, same as sovereign state) from a variety of European countries. They all adhere to the same principles, although some omit the last point (capacity to conduct international relations) as a necessary qualifier. Brownlie, Lauterpacht and a number of other authorities in this area of international law concur, and, needless to say, so does Crawford. --Britlawyer 15:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I thik you should avoid plundering yourself in original research which is comical if you ask me. For example Abkhazia does not meet even your so called convention, this enclave does not have Permanent population (majority of it was expelled due to ethnic cleansing), No Capacity to conduct international relations (even UN refused visa to their representatives). But its funny how you overwrite UN and trying to legalize the question of the sovereign state based on zero sources and lack of references. I need to see them, not some definitions of the state but specific designation of those regions as sovereign states (from UN or any other reliable source). So far, you have failed in that. Ldingley 15:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

None of the above is original research but rather cited from the mentioned International Law textbook as well as from the Comments (201) of the Restatement, Third. This is current United States application of international law. Please also note that the "capacity to conduct international relations" refers to competence, within its own constitutional system, to conduct international relations with other states, as well as the political, technical and financial capabilities to do so. Refusal of a visa can hamper this capacity but I fail to see how it can change the fundamentals. I stress again that I am here merely quoting from texts on legal theory, which are sourced, and that none of the above is original research by me. Britlawyer 15:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Use of legal criteria overriding political criteria

There is no point in further discussing political criteria as a measure of sovereignty. On that basis, anyone can find sources to claim that many, and perhaps most, of the ~200 entities on this list are in some ways not sovereign: Politicians of all stripes issue statements on a weekly basis, arguing that taking out a loan with the IMF undermines sovereignty of country A, that accepting a NATO base on its soil means that country B is no longer sovereign, that a coup of country C by supporters of country D is a loss of sovereignty, etc, ad absurdum. The only way to build a list is to follow established criteria accepted in international law such as those listed in the article's introductions, past and present, so it would be preferable to exclude political considerations from any discussions of inclusion criteria. Britlawyer 14:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Until you don’t present any support (Primary and secondary sources) which support your claims (which are obvious POV), you can not simply rv the article. If you are lawyer as you claim to be, you should know better about presenting support and evidence for the claim which is highly disputed. No references and sources, your claims are just empty words and your rv are just another step of POV pushing. Ldingley 15:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not making any claims, but merely requesting contributors to please apply objective international law criteria to the list rather than any necessarily subjective political consideration. Two such sources are given here which also ends with the mention of three concurring authorities and the mention of the existence of other states who subscribe to these criteria. I have no opinion on individual entities, and have indeed requested sources to be put forward. Until this is the case, I support your inclusion of the "dubious / neutrality contested" tag on each of those until such time they are either removed or the requested sources are provided. I urge that list criteria remains consistent with international law and free of political considerations for or against any of the entities whose inclusions are disputed.Britlawyer 15:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Again Mr Brit, where are sources (primary and secondary) for the claim that Abkhazia and rest of those so called de facto "states" are suvereign? In case you fail to find primary source (international legal document) where Abkhazia and the rest of those “states” are sovereign and recognized as such by even one state, I don’t see any point keeping them on the list and deceiving the public with false information based on biased and dubious research of some wikipedians. Ldingley 15:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

If these states meet the requirements for statehood under international law there is no objective reason to exclude them, and if they do not, then there is no justification for including them. It all boils down to the establishment of objective criteria for list inclusion, after which for each entity which is proposed for inclusion, a source for each is required. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_sovereign_states#Source.3F Britlawyer 15:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Nop, It all boils down to you using reliable sources for claiming that those separatist enclaves are SUVEREIGN. I wish Britain can be so sympathetic to independence causes when it comes to Scotland but alas. Ldingley 15:45, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

p.s according to you logic than Scotland and North Ireland are suvereign states too Ldingley 15:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Blissfully, this is not for me to decide. I am merely asking that contributors help define a solid set of criteria for list inclusion, and then deal with each entity separately, with sources to support that the states proposed for inclusion meet the criteria for statehood under international law. If South Ossetia and the others do not meet the threshold, they will be removed from the list and your concern is resolved. This, however, will necessarily pass through a clarification of the current inclusion criteria which is limited to Montevideo but which can and should be both expanded in scope and in depth. In other words; more sources to bolster the Montevideo criteria if it is indeed the valid inclusion criteria and a clarification of how Montevideo is understood and how similar criteria are interpreted in international law.--Britlawyer 16:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comments: Should this list be renamed, changed, or deleted?

This List of sovereign states has been created to group all sovereign states of the world, including non-UN states, such as Vatican and Taiwan.

The inclusion of Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Transnistria, and Somaliland in this list is a contentious issue. This reflects the contentious issue of their international status, none of them being formally recognized by a UN member or international organization. Proponents of the inclusion of these entities in the current list promote the use of various criteria to allow the inclusion of the 4 contentious entities, namely:

• De facto independence
• The Montevideo convention
• International law, generally

All these criteria have been discussed for a long time now, and no consensus has been reached over the possibility to use them as a list inclusion criterion compatible with wikipedia rules, most notably WP:OR.

The relative positions of the editors are now quite clear, and it is obvious that NPOV cannot be reached in the current configuration of the article. Several approaches have been proposed:

1. The removal of the 4 contentious entities.
2. The definition of a clear inclusion criterion, accompanied by a change in the article name to match the new objective of the list.
3. The deletion of the article, which has always been contentious due to the contentious nature of the notion of "sovereignty".

Please, comment on these 3 possibilities, knowing that general statements are not useful, the problems lie in the details.

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• The solutions 1 and 3 seem OK to me. Solution 2 has, in my view, a fundamental problem: Instead of choosing the elements of the list according to a criterion and to wikipedia rules, it tries to find a criterion that matches a list. I also claim that all attempts in this direction (including the current version of the article) rely on WP:OR when using complex lawyerly arguments to prove that the entities are sovereign/independent/whatever according to international law. Dpotop 15:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• Thank a lot for initiating this section. Its very simple and straightforward, we don’t need any definitions from any convention or chapters from international law of the sovereign state or truly independent state. Kober was correct; some people here confuse intentionally or unintentionally the term de facto independent and independent. However, lets avoid this question. There are no sources or valid references to any documents, UN resolutions or international treaties/recognitions of those separatist enclaves which are currently de facto “independent” as sovereign states officially recognized and designated as such by the international community or a single state. Again, we don’t need definitions of sovereignty (In Canada we know very well its definitions due to Quebec issue) but a clear source and reference with supports the claim that de facto regimes are sovereign and have same status as Germany, France, Canada, etc. If, our opponents fail to present these supporting documents or sources, than these de facto “states” have no place in the list of sovereign countries even for a second, because its deceit, biased POV, OR, and without any valid source. Options 1 and 3 are the only ways out from this “dispute” due to the fact that no one has presented the support for the claim which is outlined above. I think this is enough said and need no more further discussion. Ldingley 15:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• Imho the list of the independent entities of the world is worth having in Wikipedia (that's about the 3rd solution). The compromise 2nd approach (replacing 'sovereign' with 'independent') is ok to me and there is a lot of sources that support it. Alaexis 15:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• Solution 3 is ridiculous. Beyond that, I'm just going to say that there are two issues here. One is the definition of a "state" (or a "sovereign state" - they are the same thing) under international law. As far as I can gather, there's several different working definitions, but the dominant one, the declarative theory of statehood, is based on the premise that to become a state, an entity has to meet certain objective criteria, and that the subjective criteria of recognition by other states is irrelevant. This definition is embodied by the Montevideo Convention and other definitions used by many states. There is a competing view, the constitutive theory of statehood, in which statehood is based on international recognition, but it has been a minority position. Stating all of this appears to be perfectly standard, and no OR is involved in saying that we ought to generally use the declarative theory as the basis for our list. Using the constitutive theory would, of course, exclude the states Dpo, Ldingley, et al, want excluded, but it would also require us to do things like include Palestine, which is not a de facto state. I think the only alternative to using the declarative theory is to use both criteria, and to list entities that meet either theory. Beyond the question of the definition of a state under international law, is the question of whether these particular states should be included. I fully agree that we need to find sources which specifically discuss whether Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, and so forth qualify for statehood under either Montevideo or any other theory of statehood. We should be rigorous about this. But the idea that there's some complex chain of inferences needed to determine that Montevideo and similar statements of the declarative theory constitute actually are a definition of statehood, and that this is OR, is ridiculous. By which I mean, I mostly reject all of Dpotop's solutions. If no sources can be found to support the inclusion of any of the controversial entities, then I'm fine with removing them, but I'm not fine with agreeing a priori to do so. I don't mind moving the article if people would prefer to, but I don't see how moving the article is related to the question of having a firmer definition. john k 15:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The mere fact that you need half a screen to explain all these "theories of statehood" shows that the whole development is WP:OR. Note the nice discussion "proving" that statehood is the same as sovereignty. :) Dpotop 17:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? What is OR here? What in the world is the connection between "lengthy explanation" and "OR"? Beyond that, I obviously made no effort to "prove" that a "sovereign state" and a "state [under international law]" are the same thing. I asserted that they are, because I can't see anything in the definition of the word "sovereign" that would modify the international law definition of "state". It ought to be up to you to find some source which claims otherwise. You and the rest keep on asserting that "sovereignty" is some special status which can only be confirmed by the UN, while, apparently "statehood" is not, but you have provided no sources to back up such a claim, which has no basis, certainly, in the plain meaning of the word "sovereignty" or the general understanding of what is a "state" under international law. john k 20:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

OTOH, it seems that JohnK agrees with the fact that this article is not dependent on the defintion of "sovereignty" (which he calls statehood). Most important, he seems to agree that we should only include entities for which sources are found stating explicitly their sovereignty/statehood. Dpotop 17:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes. I believe that we should only include entities when we can find reliable sources that consider them as states under Montevideo or some other iteration of the declarative theory, or which are recognized as states by a significant number of other states. Taiwan, for instance, clearly qualifies as a state under the declarative theory, and one can easily find numerous sources which note its status as a de facto independent state. Its (now somewhat half heartedly) claimed de jure status as the legitimate government of all of China, on the other hand, is largely dubious, even though there are a few Central American countries that recognize it as such. A list only including de jure countries would be one which would simply list "China," and not list the two Chinese regimes separately.

Unfortunately, we are left with the dilemma "is statehood=sovereignty"? I think not, for they are not listed as synonyms in the dictionary. Dpotop 17:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

How is that relevant? The two words are obviously not synonyms of one another. But in the contexts of states, to say something qualifies as a state, and that something is a sovereign state, is to say more or less the same thing. Are you trying to suggest that Transnistria qualifies as a state, but is not sovereign? What would that even mean? Could you please explain how you envision the difference between "sovereignty" and "statehood" in this specific context? By the way, your claim about the dictionary doesn't even bear out. Here's American Heritage's definition of a state: "the supreme public power within a sovereign political entity." In so many words, then, a state is a "sovereign political entity." You are making a distinction without a difference. john k 04:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

• It is impossible to build a list like this, let alone maintain it, without having clear inclusion criteria based on how sovereign statehood is traditionally defined under customary international law. As such, #2 is is the only option short of deleting the article, which I do not support as it would mean the loss of a useful reference list within Wikipedia.--Britlawyer 16:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• IMO option 2 should be out of the question unless sources can be found supporting the view that the contentious entities actually fulfil those criteria or designate the entities as sovereign states (I agree with Britlawyer on what the criteria are). Until such sources are cited, I support options 1 and 3 because interpreting the criteria ourselves is original research.--Ploutarchos 16:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Option #2 concerns itself with a definition of clear inclusion criteria. Inclusion of individual entities will always be subject to this criteria, and to sources confirming that they conform with the requirements for inclusion. Britlawyer 16:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Do such sources exist with respect to Transnistria ect? If they don't, then option 1 = option 2. I'm asserting that such sources don't exist (and per WP:V until proven wrong this gives me a right to start deleting). I am happy to be proven wrong however.--Ploutarchos 16:42, 3 May 2007

He didn’t present any reliable source or reference, just long definitions of sovereignty which we all are familiar with. I asked him ore than couple of times and he didn’t even bother to address the issue. Fact remains: there are NO sources or references which designate those de facto regimes as sovereign.Ldingley 17:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Above, in #Second question: What reliable source stated that Transnistria is sovereign?, Mauco provided several sources. one was in Russian, and the others weren't online, but it's not true that nobody has provided sources. john k 17:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Right. Did you read any of those sources? Or should we trust on word a guy User:William Mauco that was almost banned from wikipedia for being a sockpuppet master for POV pushing on Transnistria-related articles? Dpotop 17:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say we should trust his word. Just that sources have been offered. They ought to be checked. john k 17:46, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Right. Could you check them? I can't (I looked for them, could not find one nearby). Dpotop 18:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll put it on my to-do list, but there is much on that list that doesn't get done. My main point was that the claims that "there are no sources" and that nobody has provided any sources are blatantly false. Mauco did provide various sources. It's up to us to check them, but until we do, we can't dismiss them out of hand, and we certainly can't ignore them and pretend they haven't been given. john k 18:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

John do you even understand what sources mean? I have reviewed "Mauco sources" and they are NOT primary and even secondary source. Where does it say in those sources that de facto regimes are sovereign? Are you intentionally ignoring UN resolutions? Or trying to discredit UN and just go with Mauco sources? Interesting. Again, no reliable sources so far, not even trying to find one. You know why? Because nowhere you can find that those regime have sovereign status (which is obtained by official recognition). End of story. Ldingley 19:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

A) Did you really review these sources? What do they say? Can you paraphrase? B) What on earth do you mean that they aren't even secondary sources? C) What does the UN have to do with anything. Could you please review Declarative theory of statehood? This is the dominant theory of statehood under international law, and it explicitly states that a state can exist independent of whether other countries recognize it. You have yet to provide any source for your claim that "sovereign status" is "obtained by official recognition." If anything is OR, it is that. john k 20:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think the list is useful, however, if it includes the countries of uncertain “sovereignty” it would do more harm than good. Thus, I support option 1, and partially support option 3. Option 2, looks nice in theory but I don’t think we will arrive at any solution if we try to implement it in practice. The bottom line is: if a sovereignty of a certain entity can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt using reliable sources it should be in the list; if there is some doubt that an entity is sovereign, it could be mentioned in the introduction and excluded from the list. Thus, for example I wouldn’t object if Abkhazia and South Ossetia were mentioned in the introduction, but since their sovereignty is doubtful at best I object to them being in the list. Irakliy81 20:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The removal of entities does not work as it does not address the problem: an article structure created solely to support the postulate that said entities (PMR, South Ossetia, Abkhazia,...) are sovereign.
    The understanding of what states are sovereign is a worthwhile topic. The current sovereignty "criteria," however, are WP:OR (i.e., sovereign according to part of part of Montevideo), not to mention the series of associated articles with more WP:OR which have been created only for the purpose of being quoted in the sovereignty "debate". Sovereignty must be assigned or inherited (for example, the U.S. was de facto independent until its treaty of peace with England). Or, at a minimum, a State must have widespread recognition. A State cannot be sovereign without recognized legitimacy. There is no such thing as "defacto sovereign." Any article that defines sovereignty according to Wikipedia editors using self-created criteria to recognize territories as sovereign is bogus WP:OR.
    There is already a list of unrecognized countries, however, that was not sufficient for those who want to claim places such as the PMR are sovereign. What would be immensely useful information is who recognizes whom as (legitimately) sovereign on the international stage. That is what the content of a "sovereign states" article should be, but is not currently. "List of states recognized as sovereign" would be a clarifying title in this regard.
    Rename to "List of states recognized as sovereign" with appropriate criteria (who recognizes whom).
    I agree on the characterization of Mauco's use of sources, whenever I have read the source in context, it did not mean what Mauco interpreted, nor, often, is it actually authoritative. (I have gone and bought books he cited just to check.) Also, the suggestion of "independent" states is just as WP:OR, as some will clamor that the PMR et al. are "defacto independent," therefore they are truly independent--look, they print their own money!--(implying sovereign). —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Editors involved in the dispute, please add your statements here

The sovereignty/statehood of the United States before 1783 was at least as dubious as that of Transnistria today, if not more so. I don't understand, by the way, what the difference is between "de facto independent" and "truly independent." There is, in fact, absolutely no difference - the two things mean exactly the same thing - once again, de facto means "in fact." A de facto state is one which, in the real world, functions like a state. Furthermore, the dominant definition of de jure statehood under customary international law states, more or less, that a de facto state is a de jure state. I am perfectly happy to list these entities in some separate portion of the article, or to set them off by italicizing and footnoting them, or any other reasonable option to note the questionable status of these places. I also think that we ought to find real sources that discuss the status of each of these places specifically before we include them. I won't go beyond that. It's clear that you and the rest have decided upon a specific definition of statehood entirely in order to exclude entities you don't like from being listed here. john k 07:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments

• Concerning the dangers of using "international law" as an inclusion criterion, I invite to read the edits of User:Britlawyer in section Talk:List of sovereign states#The conflict, as I see it. You will see how the conclusion that the 4 entities should be included is obtained by stacking arguments in complex inferences, which is the very definition of WP:OR. Moreover, as usual in law, these inferences can be easily disputed. :( Dpotop 15:40, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• Please add your comments here

Thank a lot for initiating this section. Its very simple and straightforward, we don’t need any definitions from any convention or chapters from international law of the sovereign state or truly independent state. Kober was correct; some people here confuse intentionally or unintentionally the term de facto independent and independent. There are no sources or valid references to any documents, UN resolutions or international treaties/recognitions of those separatist enclaves which are currently de facto “independent” as sovereign states officially recognized and designated as such by the international community or a single state. Again, we don’t need definitions of sovereignty (In Canada we know very well its definitions due to Quebec issue) but a clear source and reference with supports the claim that de facto regimes are sovereign and have same status as Germany, France, Canada, etc. If, our opponents fail to present these supporting documents or sources, de facto “states” have no place in the list of sovereign countries even for a second, because its deceit, biased POV, OR, and without any valid source. Options 1 and 3 are the only ways out from this “dispute” due to the fact that no one has presented the support for the claim which is outlined above. I think this is enough said and need no more further discussion. Ldingley 15:38, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you know what de facto means? It means "in fact", as opposed to de jure, which means "in law." It is absolutely POV to claim that "independent" means de jure independent. And of course Transnistria, et al, are not "officially recognized and designated as [sovereign states] by the international community or a single state" (except North Cyprus, which is recognized by Turkey). That's not the point. The point is that under one definition of statehood, recognition by other states isn't a necessary criterion. john k 17:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I think we know what de facto and de jure mean. What is being claimed by ascribing sovereignty in this article via the super-narrow definition artificially constructed is that a certain set of territories are not only de facto independent, but significantly more than that--for example, Mauco has declared the "birth" of the PMR equivalent to the birth of the United States. The point is that if "under one definition of statehood, recognition by other states isn't a necessary criterion" then all we have here is another "list of unrecognized states" and this article can simply be deleted. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 02:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure if the point has been made, but an important reason for keeping sovereign in the name is that it avoids confusion over the inclusion of none sovereign states such as Virginia. The advantage of sovereign over independent. Is sovereign is a concept understood in international relations while there is far more latitude in the words "independent state", particularly post World War II with the rise in treaties that bind the actions of states. A sovereign state like France has lost some if its independence by being a member of the European Union. The French states still has full sovereignty but is it as independent as the state of India? (I don't want an answer to that question, it was just to illustrate that independent is a less precise word than sovereign.) --Philip Baird Shearer 10:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion

Article be renamed to List of States and be divided into three groups. The first lists the member states of the United Nations. The second lists "partially recognised states" Taiwan and TRNC, the third lists "Unrecognised states". --A.Garnet 20:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I would be surprised if the pro-frozen conflict zone contingent would agree to relegate their babies to "unrecognized" states, remember, some of those not-recognized-as-legitimate states recognized each other amongst themselves. "Partial" recognition may leave things open to POV interpretation. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 20:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the problem, it is very subjective. The idea of partial and unrecognised was lifted from List of unrecognised states article. If you really want to avoid any possibility of OR, then i'd suggest renaming it List of United Nations member states. --A.Garnet 21:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Well how about that, the article I linked to just happens to exist and be FA! --A.Garnet 21:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are referring to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecognized_states Irakliy81 21:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I know what I was referring to, pesky American spelling! --A.Garnet 21:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I've made a redirect :)

Actually your suggestion is more or less fine for me (the only issue is the names of the proposed sections). Let's see what the others think about the proposed compromise solution. Alaexis 13:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

TRNC is not a partially recognized state Garnet. That is a blatant POV. 80.250.128.5 13:47, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Garnets suggestion would create an obvious fork of List of unrecognized countries that already carries 3 problematic tags. Aristovoul0s 16:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Transnistria sources

Following several remarks above concerning some "sources" provided by User:William Mauco on the sovereignty of Transnistria, I need to make some remarks. FYI, the current Wikipedia policy, incarnated in both WP:RS and WP:A require thatr Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. In the case of South Ossetia, Transnistria, etc., it is clear that we deal with exceptional claims (in particular, these claims fall in the category of of "surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known"). So, according to current policy, these claims must be supported by the best sources, and preferably multiple reliable sources. The sources proposed by Mauco are not reliable, for the simple reason that none of us other editors was able to find them. Moreover, Mauco has a history of deception on Transnistria-related subjects. Therefore, while assuming good faith, these sources cannot be considered reliable. Note that I do not question here the quality of the sources, just their use/citation by Mauco alone. Dpotop 07:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

None of us was able to find them? On what do you base that claim? The first source is available online to anyone who reads Russian. I don't, but that doesn't mean one is "unable to find it." The other sources are all, with the exception of the last, available at my university library. Cambridge and Routledge, at least, are reputable academic publishers (I'm unfamiliar with Ashgate). It behooves us to actually look up what these books say before you condemn them as unreliable sources. There are also several books available on Amazon U.S., at least - see [http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-4357237-0752746?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=International+Society+and+the+de+facto+state&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go here]. We really can't make any conclusions until we actually make some effort to see what these books say. john k 17:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Right. So: Who among us editors is willing to pay USD150 to read one of those books (or some 400 for all of them)? Dpotop 17:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Consider visiting a library )) Alaexis 18:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you do it? :)) Did any of you do it? Dpotop 18:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Nope; dunno. What do you think about A.Garnet's suggestion, btw? Alaexis 18:41, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[http://www.amazon.com/Engaging-Eurasias-Separatist-States-Unresolved/dp/1929223544/ref=sr_1_3/104-4357237-0752746?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178479894&sr=8-3 This book], it's worth noting, is $12. but beyond that, as Alaexis says, these books are available at the library. I have indeed, not had time to look at them, but that doesn't mean we can dismiss sources that we haven't looked at. john k 19:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually the first, online, source we can easily dismiss. Mr. Zatulin is not an impartial researcher but a political figure actively engaged in promoting Russian imperialistic opinion. I would consider statements by Mauco himself to be more reliable than anything mister Zatulin has to say. He, for example, calls the democratically elected president of Georgia a "usurper". We are not going to use this as a "source" as well, are we? Quick googling of the news for Mr. Zatulin can reveal that he is clearly a party to the conflicts in Transnistria, Abkhazia and S. Ossetia promoting separatists views and his opinion can not be considered as a reliable source with respect to the question in hand . Here's a small example: [11](PaC 21:57, 6 May 2007 (UTC))

Fair enough. john k 22:26, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so I believe we are left with yet another option: Rely on Wikipedia rules and add "sovereign states" only when a reliable source is found claiming the entity is a "sovereign state". If we do this, I presume that SO, NK, TR, ABKH must not figure in the list. :) For Northern Cyprus and Taiwan it's more difficult. I told you the simplest way is to delete the list altogether. Dpotop 13:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I can agree with your option, although I do not agree with the result you claim. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if sources will be able to be found for these places. But I'm happy to remove them until sources can be found. That Taiwan is a de facto state is pretty generally recognized, though. I'm not really sure how this could be disputed. Once again, I think there's some strong emphasis on the issue of recognition by other powers as being somehow superior as a determinant of what is a state to de facto independence, when, in fact, so far as I can tell, it is de facto independence that is the defining criterion under customary international law. The real issue ought to be whether the frozen conflict states are really de facto independent, which, as I've said before, I'm agnostic on, and which ought to be addressed on a state by state basis. john k 16:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Good to see we agree on one aspect.
2. On Taiwan, I would agree with you, but informally. OTOH, I found no source I would call reliable claiming the clear-cut sovereignty of Taiwan. Taiwan itself avoids any clear sovereignty claim, lately. Dpotop 17:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

As usual, I think discussion of sovereignty is a distraction. But, indeed, the current government of the ROC is rather evasive about the basis of its power. As I understand it, the official position remains that of the ROC - that the government in Taipei, the Republic o f China, represents the legitimate government of all of China. But they don't like to make this claim explicitly, because they are Taiwanese nationalists, and really want to declare a Republic of Taiwan. But they don't dare do that, because then the Chinese would attack them. So the whole thing is a total mess of not quite made claims. But, again, I think this list ought to take de facto realities on the ground at least as seriously as de jure claims, and on the former count the ROC/Taiwan is clearly a state. john k 22:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Quite a distraction, indeed, like this entire article. :) But what can we do, we must stick to dictionary definitions of the words "sovereignty", "independence", "state", a.s.o. Otherwise, the entire Wikipedia effort is pointless because the articles can only be understood by the people who wrote them and which have more or less the same informal understanding of the notions. :) Dpotop 16:55, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Surely the political science definitions are perfectly appropriate to an article whose subject is (more or less) political science. We should use the most relevant definition, not the most common ones. And, at any rate, the dictionary definitions of "independence," "sovereignty," and "state" are the ones that support a de facto understanding. There's nothing in the dictionary definition of sovereignty that implies that recognition by other states is a formal requirement of sovereignty. john k 18:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, JohnK, but this article is not titled "Sovereignty", so we should not try to define it here. In this article we should simply take act of what states are explicitly labelled "sovereign" by other people. Dpotop 07:31, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no reason to limit it to states explicitly labelled "sovereign." States which have been labelled as having the characteristics of statehood/sovereignty by reliable sources should be perfectly acceptable to list here. john k 15:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Last edits by User:Makalp

My impression was that no editor should change the article while it is blocked, with exceptions allowed only for clear-cut non-controversial data. Am I wrong in believing this? Dpotop 07:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Reverted myself for consensus.But I dont think that you are right.See two example in my revert.Regards.Must.^{T C} 11:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the list was marked as protected, but was actually not protected. I wrongly deduced that you abused some admin rights, which is not the case. Sorry. Dpotop 13:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Just for explanation: this had been a temporary protection set to expire automatically, and I'd just forgotten to take off the tag when that happened. Sorry about that. Mustafa isn't an admin so he wouldn't have had any tools to abuse :-) --Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:53, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

De facto vs. De jure

Given the importance given by some editors to these expressions, and the will to promote "de facto sovereignty", let me point to the intrinsic problem of relying on "de facto" notions: The fact that they obviously didn't manage to rally enough consensus to make them pass into law, which is the "de jure" domain. De facto notions are by definition still disputed, and it is not the job of Wikipedia to promote one side or the other of the dispute until there is not a clear winner. Dpotop 07:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

There's a second problem related to "de facto" definitions: They are incomplete. For instance, today's Iraq is arguably non-sovereign. In some domains, less sovereign than Transnistria. but still, you class it as a "sovereign state". I understand that you would like to say Transnistria is super-independent, but why don't you want to say, too, that Iraq is not? Dpotop 07:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"De facto" vs. "de jure" is not a very precise way of putting it. As has been pointed out numerous times, one of the principal definitions of a state in international law is basically "if it's a de facto state, it's a state." So the issue is "states which function as states, but aren't recognized diplomatically by other countries," not "states which are de facto but not de jure." The question of whether they are de jure states is, in fact, the precise question at isse for de facto states. One legal theory states that they are. Another denies it. Secondly, I think that those of us who are in favor of keeping an open mind for Transnistria, et al, want to make the list as inclusive as possible. That Iraq, in many ways, does not exercise all the attributes of sovereignty should not be sufficient to exclude it from the list, given that it's a UN member and recognized as a sovereign state throughout the world. Similarly, the fact that Somalia has not had a functioning central government in more than 15 years does not mean it should not be listed. I have absolutely no interest in coming up with a completely consistent rule for who to include. What I want is to have several sets of criteria, any one of which would allow something to be listed. So Somalia, as a de jure state with little in the way of effective de facto government should be listed. But so should Somaliland, a de facto state which functions pretty much in the normal way states function but whose independence is not recognized by the outside world. They are both, in their way, states, and there's no particular reason not to list both. john k 08:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to note, once again, that the fact of these conflict zones actually being de facto states needs to be demonstrated, and should not be taken as given. But there's no point in arguing about that unless the basic point, that genuine de facto countries ought to be listed, is conceded. Anyway, I'm entirely and completely frustrated with this. There's more of you than there is of me, and you all obviously care about this way more than I do. None of you is interested in actually coming up with a worthy compromise. You, Dpotop, constantly put forth different statements and variations on the case, but you aren't actually interested in trying to come up with something that would be acceptable to everyone - you just want your way. I'm sick of this. I won't say I'm done, because I'll probably be back, but I'm tired of writing this whole stream of words when there's absolutely no hope of actually convincing anyone that I'm right. I'm done with this page for a while. Do whatever kind of monstrous thing you want. john k 08:33, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to disapoint you JohnK, but you keep forgetting that Wikipedia has some rules. An NPOV is negotiable within the limits defined by these rules. All I'm trying to do here is to point out that some of the proposed solutions are not compliant with Wikipedia rules. BTW, I do not reject "De facto" altogether. Instead I point to the fact that you seem to apply it arbitrarily. As I put it before: It seems that everybody in this list has decided which entities must be in this list, and then is willing to twist the rules to include exactly (or at least) those entities. And twisting the rules is acceptable only while Wikipedia rules are not broken. Dpotop 12:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

A) You are not disappointing me, you are doing exactly what I would have expected you to do. B) I absolutely don't care what countries are listed. I just think that recognition is not the proper criterion for whether something is a state. C) I don't understand where NPOV speaks in favor of your view. I am trying to be inclusive of different POVs about what constitutes a state, while you are trying to exclude states you don't like. I don't see how I'm on the wrong side of that one. D) What on earth does "twisting the rules is acceptable only while Wikipedia rules are not broken" mean? E) What do you mean that I am applying "de facto" arbitrarily? I hold no brief for any particular one of these disputed countries (although I think Somaliland has the best claim to de facto statehood of the lot). I have repeatedly stated that if you will concede the principle that de facto states should be included in the list, I am willing to remove Transnistria, et al, until reliable sources can be found which consider them to be de facto states, and that they should be set out on the list as different from regular states in some way. I don't see how I'm the one being unreasonable here, or trying to do anything arbitrarily. john k 15:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

"Being inclusive", as you put it, corresponds to no clear criterion and this is the source of all the problems here. BTW, I see that you are not really "inclusive" towards the "recognition" criterion, so what exactly "inclusive" means. Does it mean "If I find it appropriate, then I include it, otherwise not?". Dpotop 09:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

What I mean by being inclusive is that there ought to be various different "clear criteria", but that any of those criteria should qualify something for being listed somewhere on this page. One criteria ought to be something along the lines of Montevideo - i.e., does the entity qualify as a state under the declarative theory of statehood? The other could involve diplomatic recognition and the like. You say that being inclusive is somehow mutually exclusive of having "clear criteria", but that's not true at all. One can have perfectly clear criteria which also make for a reasonably inclusive list. john k 22:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, remember that this is a WP talk page, not an edit war. So, take my edits as genuine interrogations, not an attempt to mine your position. Dpotop 09:43, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Remove Chechnya From List

The list includes all states officially recognized by the UN and by the majority of countries, plus special exceptions that are de facto states or other sovereign entities recognized by a large number of de jure states. Chechneya does not hold any special qualification for inclusion, and is like any other de facto separatist regime.

What makes Chechnya different? Because one country recognizes it? That is hardly enough. Northern Cyprus is equal in this respect, if not more independent. In fact, many "unrecognized" states are recognized by one or two entities.

The exceptions listed in the article, apart from Chechnya, are all supported by a large number of official states, and so they merit special mention. But Chechnya should not be included unless the list is going to include EVERY self-declared "state."--Supersexyspacemonkey 21:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Chehcnya clearly should not be listed, as it is not even a de facto state - Russia controls Chechnya. john k 23:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Do we also agree that Russia "de facto" controls Transnistria? Don't take it bad, I'm just trying to understand the limits of "de facto" in your acception. Dpotop 09:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The issue, of course, is that Chechnya is both controlled by Russia and internationally recognized to be part of Russia, and the de facto government of Chechnya considers itself to be part of Russia. Transnistria could be argued to be under de facto Russian control, but it is internationally considered to be part of Moldova, and the government of Transnistria, while perhaps desiring Russian annexation, considers itself to be a sovereign country. Nor does Russia consider Transnistria to be part of Russia. The situations are not analogous. Also, what Britlawyer says below. john k 22:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Chechnya would have been eligible for inclusion on this list when it fulfilled the criteria for statehood, which was for part of the 1990's. This is no longer the case today. It has little to do with outside control and more to do with questions such as does it have its own government and is it capable of conducting its own foreign policy. The current government of Chechnya does not claim that it is a sovereign state so neither should we. It has no place on this list, just as it is also not even included in Wikipedia's less stringent list of unrecognized countries. However, according to the broad criteria which John-K sets forth and which I subscribe to, and which I believe is supported by jurisprudence, there is reason to include the states which are listed as unrecognized countries elsewhere in Wikipedia. Britlawyer 12:08, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Again

I may have misunderstood the way things are done on Wikipedia. It was my impression that when an editor wants to include something, the onus is on him to find sources supporting it. Why is this not adhered to here? Are there sources that Transnistria et al are sovereign states or that they filfill criteria for that status? Can a quote be given? If so, please, post it here for the world to see and end this dispute. If you can't, they clearly don't belong in the list.--Ploutarchos 12:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It is my understanding that sources have already been given, and a check of the Archival version of this page seems to confirm this. I will see if I can find additional sources since in cases where the inclusion of an entity is openly disputed it is correct to ask for sources. Britlawyer 15:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you please point me to them then. Which archive they are in etc. Also, if it's not too much trouble, could you include the relevant quotes in {{cquote}} templates so that they are easier to find. Thanks a million.Ploutarchos 15:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it Wikipedia, as long as at least one source can be found which supports the affirmation that an entity meets the requirements for sovereign statehood then this is not original research. I found some new sources for Abkhazia, and will attempt to locate sources for other disputed entities as well.---Britlawyer 18:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

That's all I'm asking for.--Ploutarchos 18:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Abkhazia

1. Federal Practice: Exploring alternatives for Georgia and Abkhazia by Bruno Coppieters, David Darchiashvili and Natella Akaba (eds), VUB University Press, Vrije Universiteir Brussel (Vakgroep Politieke Wetenschappen), Brussels, Belgium, 1999, page 238:

“ From the standpoint of international law, Abkhazia meets all the qualifications required for its characterisation as a State. ”

Its Mr Coppiets opponion not reality. Abkhazia is not officially suvereign. Ldingley 20:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Obviously the contributor who would say this has not read this particular book. It is published by one of the leading universities in Brussels and is a peer-reviewed source. My quotation merely included the pertinent statement ("From the standpoint of international law, Abkhazia meets all the qualifications required for its characterisation as a State") but anyone who reads the book will see that immediately after this sentence follows four and a half pages of documentary evidence for why this is the case, including references not just to the Montevideo Convention but to precedent and to both general and specific sources of international law. Scanned pages will be provided upon request, certifying to the quality and level of documentation and research found regarding Abkhazia in the work of this particular source.--Britlawyer 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

2. "Unresolved Conflicts in the Regional Security System: The Case of the South Caucasus" journal Transition Studies Review (Publisher: Springer Wien), ISSN 1614-4007, Issue: Volume 11, Number 3 / December, 2004, DOI 10.1007/s11300-004-0013-0, Pages 213-223.

“ Abkhazia is a sovereign state "in the formal approach, according to the Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States." ”

Again, original research and POV claim. Sh eis definately not neutral after reading that article. Gayane Novikova Ldingley 20:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Only a person who has not read the full article from start to finish would state such an opinion because the actual research seems solid to anyone who would bother to check the sources provided in the footnotes. At the risk of verging on the suggestive I submit that Ldingley's own interpretation of the conclusions of the article would qualify as original research and POV more-so than the article itself.--Britlawyer 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

3. Institute for Security and International Studies (ISIS), Sofia, research study 12, ISSN 1311 – 3259.

“ Abkhazia ... gained de-facto independence from Georgia in 1993. ”

De facto independence is NOT suvereign Ldingley 20:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

(Surely you mean sovereignty.) Please provide sources which categorically explain how de facto independence does not equal sovereignty. Texts by peer-reviewed authors who have published academic works on de facto independent states seem to imply otherwise (some examples: Scott Pegg[http://www.amazon.com/International-Society-Facto-State-Scott/dp/1840144785/ref=sr_1_2/002-4634256-1239251?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178917311&sr=1-2], Barry Bartmann[12]).--Britlawyer 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

4. O.T. Ford: Stewardship Project, November 8, 2003, newsletter on world affairs.

“ Abkhazia is effectively sovereign. ”

Not reliable source with no primary source data. No official documents sited, only oppinions. Ldingley 20:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

While this may indeed be so for this one source, the same can not be said for the remaining four sources. According to my knowledge of Wikipedia and according to the earlier discussion of sources on this page, however, only one source is required and I provided five. You may discard one, but that still leaves four, and if you discard two that still leaves three. Given a visit to a larger law library it would be possible for any qualified researcher to locate more than these off the cuff sources.--Britlawyer 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

5. "Legal opinion on The Validity and Interpretation othe 4 April 1994 Georgian-Abkhazian Agreements" prepared by Dr. Bart Driessen, legal advisor, for the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO), commenting on the requirements for statehood as they relate to Abkhazia and in particular on the Montevideo criteria.

“ As a factual matter, it would seem that these conditions are generally fulfilled by the Republic of Abkhazia. ”

Yeah it would seem but is not officially or by any recognition as such. Why do you bring only oppinions of some individuals and not primary sources? where are the primary sources from documents or any resolutions? Ldingley 20:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

What sort of additional source would be required? Please explain Wikipedia's sourcing policy to me because I was under the impression that peer-reviewed academic works by law professors published by Western European journals and universities would qualify as reliable sources.--Britlawyer 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but you are no lawyer, if you want to define sovereignty proving it by the "sources", which are actually private opinions of some people who are not authorized to define sovereignty in any way, published by the private institutions. Pirveli 18:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Cool! Abkhazia goes in, unless someone contests the second source provided here, or provides even more reputable sources claiming the opposite. Dpotop 18:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

No they are not. Not only these are not reliable sources (in terms of NPOV) but only opinions and analysis of some individuals regarding the Abkhazia status. There are no primary sources or any documents which would identify or give the designation of Abkhazia as sovereign state or meeting any conventions as such. Good luck next time in finding proper sources. Ldingley 20:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Why would anyone state that all five of the above sources should not be considered reliable sources according to Wikipedia's policy on sources? I kindly request citation of specific Wikipedia policy which explains why these sources are unacceptable and should be discarded for purposes of our research.--Britlawyer 21:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Unlike citing some oppinions by some individuals here are official documents regarding the status of Abkhazia:

United Nations resolution: [13]

“ Reaffirms the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Georgia within its internationally recognized borders, and the necessity to define the status of Abkhazia within the State of Georgia in strict accordance with these principles ”

“ Commends and strongly supports the sustained efforts of the Secretary-General and his Special Representative, with the assistance of the Russian Federation in its capacity as facilitator as well as of the Group of Friends of the Secretary-General and of the OSCE, to promote the stabilization of the situation and the achievement of a comprehensive political settlement, which must include a settlement of the political status of Abkhazia within the State of Georgia ”

Please do not change the argument. No one here is doubting that Abkhazia is a de jure part of Georgia, Republic of. This is evident in the edit itself [14] and is not open to discussion. Nor is anyone claiming that there is no territorial dispute between the unrecognized state of Abkhazia and the recognized state of Georgia, so that is also not open to discussion. You need to familiarize yourself with international law and history and realize that two states can and do exist regardless of the fact that there is an unresolved territorial dispute between them, even in cases where one party does not recognize the existence of the other. Wikipedia currently lists more than 30 such cases from among nearly two hundred territorial disputes worldwide. An unresolved territorial dispute does not in itself invalidate a claim to sovereignty, as per this exhibit[15] (Quote: "An entity may satisfy the territorial requirement for statehood even if its boundaries have not been finally settled, if one or more of its boundaries are disputed, or if some of its territory is claimed by another state.") The entirety of Taiwan's territory is claimed by mainland China, yet Taiwan's inclusion on the list is supported by those who consistently remove Abkhazia even after an exhaustive array of reliable sources have been already provided for its inclusion.--Britlawyer 21:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You are changing the essence of the argument. The territorial dispute is not between Abkhazia and Georgia, it is between Russia and Georgia, and the disputed territory is Abkhazia. Irakliy81 21:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

These sources seem clearly sufficient to indicate that Abkhazia should be included on this list. Ldingley's arguments continue to beg the question, while I agree with Britlawyer on the basic issues here. Should our list of states in 1640 not include the United Provinces because they were still a de jure part of Spain? The issue of Russia's role doesn't seem clearly relevant. There is certaiinly no territorial dispute between Russia and Georgia - Russia does not consider Abkhazia to be part of Russia. That Russia might wish to annex Abkhazia is an entirely different question from whether Russia considers Abkhazia to be independent at present. Anyway, thanks Britlawyer, for going to the trouble of actually finding sources. I would suggest that de facto states like Abkhazia be italicized in the main list, to indicate their questionable status. john k 22:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I’m sorry but your statement that “Russia does not consider Abkhazia to be part of Russia” is simply wrong. While ‘de jure’ Russia supports Georgian territorial integrity, ‘de facto’ it considers Abkhazia to be just another Russian region. To support this here is an interview with a deputy of Russian Duma, Sergey Baburin: http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/noexit/51489/ It’s long and it’s in Russian, however, those who can read it can find the following phrase in the article:

“…применительно к Абхазии и Южной Осетии, что все-таки зачем… Да нас вообще не интересует, признает их кто-то, кроме нас, или нет. Мы должны просто ездить туда в отпуск, обеспечить сибирякам, северянам нормальный отдых у моря. И нас вообще не интересует, что по этому поводу будет думать швейцар в Нью-Йорке.”

Which can be translated to English as:

“…about Abkhazia and South Ossetia…we don’t care whether anyone besides us recognizes them. We should just go there on vacations, make sure people from Siberia, and north provinces can have a place to rest by the sea. And we shouldn’t care what people in New York have to say about it.”

And this is not just any person saying this – he is an official person, a Russian equivalent of US Congressman. Irakliy81 23:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, a Duma deputy? That's authoritative. At any rate, the guy obviously is not, in fact, saying that Abkhazia and South Ossetia are part of Russia. He is specifically talking about recognizing them, which suggests recognizing them as independent states, not annexing them. john k 05:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

john k, your argument is self-contradictory. You say that Russia's official position does not include Abkhazia into the Russian Federation. But if you speak about Russian official position, then let me remind you, that it does not oppose to the territorial integrity of Georgia! Abkhazia is part of Georgia according to the official Russian position. And if you want to speak about de-facto situation, then you can check the quote, brought by Irakliy81, as one minor example. De-facto Russia is trying to take territory of Abkhazia from Georgia to themselves. Pirveli 00:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, my argument for including Abkhazia has absolutely nothing to do with what the official Russian position is. john k 01:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Your argument is actually based on the official Russian position, because when you say "There is certaiinly no territorial dispute between Russia and Georgia - Russia does not consider Abkhazia to be part of Russia.", thats what you are talking about. Officially Russia does not consider Abkhazia part of Russia. Officially it also considers it part of Georgia. But in fact the dispute is directly between Russia and Georgia. Pirveli 02:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

No, there's a dispute between Georgia and the separatist government of Abkhazia, which is de facto supported by Russia.

We're getting distracted. What does it all have to do with the sources brought by Britlawyer? They are valid and they support including Abkhazia in this list. What Wikipedia rules/policies prevent us from doing it? Alæxis_¿question? 05:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Badinter definition of statehood

Most of the discussion on this page has centered on the statehood criteria laid forth in Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States 1933, which is generally accepted as an expression of customary international law.

However, it would be appropriate to also quote Opinion 1 of the European Union's Badinter Commission (31 ILM 1488 (1992)) on the definition of a State and its committant sovereignty: "the State is commonly defined as a community which consists of a territory and a population subject to an organized political authority; that such a State is characterized by sovereignty."

The Badinter Commission (like Montevideo) also rules out the need for such an entity to obtain recognition in order to be a State: "The existence or disappearance of the State is a question of fact; that the effects of recognition by other States are purely declaratory." While contributors can continue to discuss individual entities please base this on a modicum of scientific basis.--Britlawyer 15:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The Badinter Arbitration Committee (full title), named for its chair, ruled on the question of whether the Republics of Croatia, Macedonia, and Slovenia, who had formally requested recognition by the members of the European Union and by the EU itself, had met conditions specified by the Council of Ministers of the European Community on December 16, 1991. A very specific and narrow target. [16]

    Opinion No 1. of the Badinter Arbitration Committee also states: "e) that, in compliance with the accepted definition in international law, the expression 'state succession' means the replacement of one state by another in the responsibility for the international relations of territory. This occurs whenever there is a change in the territory of the state. The phenomenon of state succession is governed by the principles of international law, from which the Vienna Conventions of 23 August 1978 and 8 April 1983 have drawn inspiration. In compliance with these principles, the outcome of succession should be equitable, the states concerned being free of terms of settlement and conditions by agreement. Moreover, the peremptory norms of general international law and, in particular, respect for the fundamental rights of the individual and the rights of peoples and minorities, are binding on all the parties to the succession."

• That condition of succession has clearly not been met in the PMR or the other frozen conflict zone territories.
• The opinion is rendered for the situation where the prior entity has dissolved (Yugoslavia), not the equivalent situation in the frozen conflict zone territories.

    Quoting Opinion No 3.: "According to a well-established principle of international law the alteration of existing frontiers or boundaries by force is not capable of producing any legal effect."

• This would support that the PMR is not a legitimate state according to the norms of international law, regardless of its self-described "war of independence". Same for other frozen conflict zone territories.

    Your citations would appear to be more "selective" than "scientific". —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 07:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Opinion No. 3 has been the subject of much academic debate since it was issued, and it would be wrong to cite it in a paragraph which then closes with the words "according to the norms of international law" as this contributor does, especially in what is merely an attempt to establish a general definition of statehood in order to help bring scientific basis to the debate over statehood criteria and accepted definitions. The peremptory norms which the contributor mentions would suggest exclusionary criteria primarily for Abkhazia and Turkish Rep. of Northern Cyprus, but also for numerous other states which are already on the list as well as obviously for one new state (Kosovo) currently being considered for independence by countries whose representatives made up Badinter. Yet at the same time, as the current list itself shows, as well as the example of the just-mentioned entity, the suggestions of Opinion No. 3 do not represent the final word in state practice, whereas Opinion No. 1 is in compliance with the accepted definition elsewhere in international law.

On issues of state practice regarding state succession and recognition, Badinter is not the best source for students and practitioners of this subject. A more exhaustive survey is found in the work "State Practice Regarding State Succesion and Issues of Recognition" (ISBN 9041112030), compiled under the supervision of Jan Klabbers. The Pilot Project on State Practice regarding State Succession and Issues of Recognition was approved by the Ad Hoc Committee of Legal Advisers (CAHDI) of the Council of Europe in March 1994 and covered the period from 1989 to 1995 with 16 member States of the Council of Europe submitting national reports, namely: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, The Netherlands, Norway, the Slovak Republic, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey and the United Kingdom. The Klabbers report moreover includes substantial documentary appendices, including texts of the Pilot Project such as national contributions in the form of national files, original documents sent in by the respective national rapporteurs, excerpts from such documents, etc.---Britlawyer 12:50, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Britlawyer, you cite Badinter to back your case, specifically on no need for recognition:

• "the Badinter Commission (like Montevideo) also rules out the need for such an entity to obtain recognition in order to be a State"

and then you back off when Badinter is quoted more fully and is no longer as definitive:

• "On issues of state practice regarding state succession and recognition, Badinter is not the best source for students and practitioners of this subject"

and then you find something new to cite (the compilation by Klabbers--actually, co-editors Klabbers and Kluwer) never before mentioned anywhere in Wikipedia.

     The point is not which of the Badinter opinions is more reflective of international law. The point is that these are all rendered as opinions, not even findings, and certainly not judgements.

     If the EU doesn't even have a definitive model for the succession of sovereignty where the prior sovereign state has already dissolved (for years), how can Wikipedia have one which manages to cover all cases including disputed territories?

    If this article were intended as a thorough inventory of sovereignty as mutually and legally recognized between states, that would be something useful that currently does not appear anywhere in Wikipedia. (And apparently even there we would have people saying Russia recognizes some of these states if you listen to what their politicians declare, not what their foreign ministry says--going by what's been postulated in discussions here.)

    However as it stands, this article exists solely to define a speculative list of "nearly sovereign except for recognition but that's not really necessary these days and whether an authority over a territory is considered legitimate or not is irrelevant" territories/authorities. In that case, this entire article can be deleted as it's only a List of unrecognized countries with more than a heaping spoonful of speculation added which seeks to impart legitimacy to specific regimes. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no case to back. What is this case of which you speak? I was asked to help find some sources and I did that. If anyone needs clarification of Badinter's work or related matters then I'm available and will always do my best to help, but all this partisanship needs to stop. --Britlawyer 23:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

You removed the POV tag [17] stating that it was the burden of others to disprove Montevideo and modern theories of state formation. In doing so, you specifically endorse the criteria constructed here to ascribe sovereignty.

    I have recommended "Engaging Eurasia's Separatist States--Unresolved Conflicts and DeFacto States" by Dov Lynch, as a pertinent resource. Its conclusion with specific reference to these self-declared states is that there can be no sovereignty without recognized legitimacy--so not quite the same as Montevideo, which is used here to ascribe sovereignty to the frozen conflict zone territories.

    Fortunately, for the time being, at least, Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, et al. do no appear on the list.

    Of course, List of countries still lists them as sovereign. That will have to change. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 01:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Problem

Britlayer,

Nobody gave you authority to lecture us on international law and blaim others of not knowing international law (i did study it BTW). In fact, you contradict yourself again by designating yourself as international law specialist and making unrealistic claims to the international law. I can claim many things too on Wikipedia. However, you are not designated or entitled to speak as international law specialist. Montevideo Convention is not an official doctrine or standard of UN or any other organizations to characterize which regions or states are sovereign. In fact, Abkhazia for example does not meat even Montevideo Convention. It does not posses majority of its population (250,000 ethnic Georgians who were expelled from that region due to separatist insurgency), it does not maintain any foreign relations and does not control most of its territory. Anyway, your understanding of this Montevideo Convention is totally unacceptable for the official designation of the sovereign state. Your sources were completely unreliable, based on personal observation and points of view of some authors ( 2 of your sources were taken from some web site which does not posses any credentials of any international organization). Your primary source is non-existent. There are no official documents were Abkhazia (and the rest of “states) is regarded as sovereign state either through referendum or as such. When United Nations issues their resolutions (which you call de jure recognition) it clearly indicates the official status (again OFFICIAL) of that region. Do you even understand what is de jure? It is a legal (by international law and guidelines) designation of that territory which is governed by constitutional law of the country of which recognition as the state and its jurisdiction is sovereign. Abkhazia (de facto or de jure) is within the official jurisdiction of Georgia and only Georgia (through constitutional changes) can determine if the region is sovereign or not.

In case you are confused, take the example of Quebec. Quebec has any means of sovereignty and meets almost all criteria of Montevideo Convention. In fact (de facto) Québec is independent from the rest of Canada with its own rules, laws and guidelines. However, the desire of Quebec to be sovereign MUST BE decided through democratic referendum. In case the referendum is successful, only Canadian government in Ottawa can authorize (based on referendum results) the sovereign status of Quebec (and even than it would not mean that Quebec would be fully independent from Canada because there are many differences between independent and sovereign, international lawyer should know that). If you want to include Abkhazia and the rest in this list based on obscured and dubious sources (not to mention completely unreliable) than the list should include Quebec, Scotland, Wales, N Ireland, Basque Country, Catalonia, Corsica, etc and the list should mention that “sovereign status” of those region are determined based on Montevideo Convention which is not an official standard for designating sovereign regions or states. If you fail to include all of them, than its definitely POV from your side of either legalizing separatist regimes or supporting their political aims. Otherwise, NPOV should be maintained and proper clarifications and designations be made based on official status and juridprudence rather than original research and unreliable data. Cheers. Ldingley 15:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

“ it does not posses majority of its population (250,000 ethnic Georgians who were expelled from that region due to separatist insurgency), it does not maintain any foreign relations and does not control most of its territory ”

Inaccuracy: less than half of the population have been expelled; some of them have already returned. A lot of people (70,000-100,000) left Abkhazia voluntarily after the war, this doesn't have anything to do with sovereignty, though.

Returned? Less than half? Who are you trying to fool Alaxais? People who have no background in this conflict surely. Approximately 300,000 ethnic Georgians (ethnic majority, MAJORITY, see sources) were expelled or killed thanks to well calculative ethnic cleansing procedures (OSCE statement). Only a very small portion (not even 38,000) have returned to Gali region (which was only populated by ethnic Georgians since time immemorial). UN in their latest SC resolution has condemned separatist regime in their violation of IDP return. So, don’t mislead people here. Ldingley 15:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

“ In the break-away region of Abkhazia, some 75 per cent of the original inhabitants have reportedly fled civil conflict into other parts of Georgia and the area remains the scene of extensive destruction ”

Mistake: Republic of Abkhazia controls 83% of its territory where about 99% of its population live (Georgian-controlled Upper Abkhazia's population is 2,000 out of total Abkhazia population of 177,000-215,000). Alæxis_¿question? 19:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

215,000 heh those are great numbers. Where did you find them? on "Nashi" web site? Ldingley 15:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Quebec doesn't claim to be independent, so it can't be in the list (The list includes all states that satisfy these criteria and claim independence.).

Who told you that? Almost all partie sin Quebec (Block Quebecoise, Parti Quebecoise, etc) claim independence and consider Quebec distinct, separate nation from the rest of Canada. The only think they struggle for is official recognition from Ottawa. And Ottawa (thank God Canada is truly democratic state and does not invade its own citizens with 300,000 and reducing Quebec city to resemble 1945 Berlin) is ready to offer it if referendum will determine that majority of Quebec citizens (regardless of their ethnic, religious, or national background) wants it. Thast they way international community views the determination of sovereign status. Again, in case of “Yes” victory in referendum, its still up to Ottawa to recognize Quebec as sovereign. But you don’t understand difference between sovereign and independent. Ldingley 15:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What's written in the official documents shouldn't be included in Wikipedia as the Truth. In fact what's written in the official documents determines only de jure status which could coincide with or diverge from the de facto situation. Alæxis_¿question? 19:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you want to rely not on official status but designations, claims and demagoguism go ahead. But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not the forum of de facto separatist dreams. If you want to be taken seriousely and support your claims officiality and documents (primary sources) are vital. Otherwise, you have proven your arguments useless and just another attempt to implement your own POVs. Ldingley 15:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

To me the whole “claiming independence” side seems rather arbitrary. If we are looking at ‘de facto’ side of things “claiming” shouldn’t have any relevance. Why a state that is ‘de facto’ independent but does not claim independence should be considered any less sovereign than a state that does? Irakliy81 01:03, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Again we're getting distracted. This is currently a requirement for inclusion here. Propose to remove it or start another list if you don't like it.

I'll repeat my question from the Abkhazia section:

What does it all have to do with the sources brought by Britlawyer? They are valid and they support including Abkhazia in this list. What Wikipedia rules/policies prevent us from doing it? Alæxis_¿question? 13:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

There is an answer if you bother to read. Again: you cannot define sovereignty proving it by the "sources", which are actually private opinions of some people who are not authorized to define sovereignty in any way, published by the private institutions. In the same way you could try to bring some newspaper, you buy in Russia as a "source". Pirveli 20:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you can. It's probably the first time I agree with Alaexis, but on Wikipedia the only thing you need to present information is a reputable source. The provided sources on Abkhazia seem reputable. The only thing one can require is that the information is put in perspective, by saying "according to source X or Y". But, again, according to Wikipedia rules, Abkhazia should be listed. Dpotop 20:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Given what I think is the universally acknowledged fact that Abkhazia is generally considered to be a de jure part of Georgia, even if it also functions as a de facto state, I would suggest that it should be listed in a way which makes clear its special status, and perhaps even in a separate section of the article for de facto states which are considered de jure parts of other states. I think we also need to find other sources for the other disputed entries. Transnistria, at least, seems to be a very similar case to Abkhazia, and Somaliland and North Cyprus are probably stronger cases for inclusion. I'm less certain of Nagorno-Karabakh and South Ossetia. Again, I think the key to doing this in a way that will establish consensus is to both list established de facto states on this page and to indicate their disputed status clearly and, if possible, in a visually jarring manner. john k 21:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

john k, I agree to your suggestion to create separate section. Pirveli 04:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This solution could be considered.

On the other hand here's what's written about Abkhazia:

“ Abkhazia[1][6][7][8][9] — Republic of Abkhazia Flag (de jure part of Georgia) ”

Isn't it clear from this text that de jure Abkhazia is part of Georgia? :::::::::Alæxis_¿question? 05:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the suggestion of JohnK. When reliable sources exist saying both that the state X is sovereign, and that its territory is recognized by the UN as part of state Y, we should put state X in a sub-list, maybe called "Disputed status". Dpotop 10:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

OTOH, I do not agree with JohnK saying that Abkhazia and Transnistria are in the same case. For Abkhazia, reputable sources exist saying explicitly that it is de facto sovereign. Everybody here saw small excerpts, etc. For Transnistria I still have to see such a source. Dpotop 10:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Dpotop here. If we're to include Transnistria the evidence of the same quality has to be produced. Alæxis_¿question? 12:48, 17 May

2007 (UTC)

I will agree that I have not seen yet seen reliable sources for Transnistria similar to those produced for Abkhazia. I agree that such sources ought to be produced before we include Transnistria. That being said, from what I have read about Transnistria, it appears to me that its objective situation is more or less the same as Abkhazia's, and thus I expect that such sources can and will probably be found. john k 15:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What reputable source? None of them were reputable sources. Do you know how to quality reliable sources? When it comes to such important classifications as sovereign status of any region, you should use primary sources which will identify officially the status of the region according to the international law. Some opinions (and those people were not eve scholars), suggestions, claims are not reputable sources in fact they are unreliable. Especially when it comes to web sites with unknown source data or reference. Anyway, along with de jure status, it should also be indicated that Abkhazia is recognized by UN, other international organizations and states as integral part of Georgia and its jurisdiction). De facto authorities are not recognized or even considered as representatives of that region. Again, 250,000 people (who were majority in Abkhazia) were expelled by force and by means of ethnic cleansing. As for Quebec, I don’t think Alaxais is the specialist in Quebec affairs. Ldingley 15:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Does Quebec claim independence? If not it can't be in this list.

Ethnic Georgians (who numbered 240,000 in 1989) constituted less half of pre-war Abkhazia's population (more than 520,000) as I've already mentioned above.

The de jure status of Abkhazia is mentioned in that very line.

Some of the Britlawyer's sources are publications in peer-reviewed journals and you haven't proved they are unreliable. Alæxis_¿question? 15:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Those sources by “Britlawyer” are absurd and preposterous. None of them are reliable; they are only opinions not any international decree or resolution which specifically indicates that Abkhazia meets Mon. Convention and therefore can be viewed as sovereign. I can publish online articles too and express my own views on subject which will have no less importance in terms of subject matter. Also none of the authors were international law scholars, conflictologists, etc. And even if they were, you need primary sources to identify the real status (not the one which is desired, proclaimed or claimed) of the country/region/entity. The term “can be considered sovereign” does not meat thy are actually sovereign in term of international law. In fact, they are not and are far from it. However, I don’t understand why you promote this unacceptable terms for Russia. If Abkhazia gains sovereignty (which is not even acceptable for Russia), every Caucasian republic (including Tatarstan) will definitely became sovereign based on that precedent. Lavrov was so eager to make parallels between Kosovo and Abkhazia, finally when realizing the danger which will parallels poses to his country, he retracted by declaring officially on UN that there could be no parallels between them, LOL Ldingley 18:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Ldingley, if I were to choose alone what to do with this article, I'd have it deleted, because the notion of "sovereignty" is ambiguous in itself. No, since the other guys don't want to delete this list, we must take into account sources on "de facto sovereignty", and the only solution to make the list more NPOV is to separate the few states with "sovereignty problems" from the other. Dpotop 15:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC) In a sense, we go back to an older proposal, which is to separate the list into several categories:

1. UN states
2. Vatican city, which has no sovereignty problem, yet is not UN member
3. Taiwan, formerly UN, now recognized by 20 or so states
4. NCyprus, recognized by Turkey alone
5. Other...

Dpotop 15:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't see as we need to separate the Vatican out from the regular list. States with no disputes as to sovereignty should all go together, and that includes the Vatican as well as the UN member states. The rest can go in a single separate section, with a "notes" column explaining the dispute. This could include Western Sahara, and perhaps Palestine, in addition to the places we've been discussing. john k 15:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so you have 192 UN member states, that are put in a list. Then, you want to create here a list with 192+1 members. This is dumb. How much easier is it to say that the "sovereign state list" is the "UN member list" plus 6-7 exceptions. But, well, why not? Dpotop 16:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think its reasonable Dpotop. Firs we will least truly sovereign states which are members of UN. After we can list the rest. The name of the list should also change. No need for sovereign. Just list of States. What you think? Ldingley 18:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to say, but "List of States" is not bright, either. According to wikipedia rules, US states must be listed (and mexican states, a.s.o.). Dpotop 19:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. What wikipedia rule would insist on such a thing? john k 19:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That the current list of indisputably sovereign states is almost identical to the list of UN members seems neither here nor there. This has not always been true. Furthermore, the UN member list simply gives different information from this list. It is focused, obviously, on the UN, and thus gives information on when the country became a UN member, and similar stuff. This list is more general, and gives more general information. john k 19:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Other issues

Alæxis, so you and Britlawyer are suspected to be sockpuppets?:) What a surprise... Pirveli 16:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a Bonaparte's idea of a joke, I presume. For a list of users who are not me for sure please visit my userpage. Alæxis_¿question? 16:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Btw, is anyone going to answer my questions here and in the 'Abkhazia' section? Alæxis_¿question? 16:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

It is answered in the Problem section, as you can see. Pirveli 06:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Soveregnity and scholarly sources

Sovereignty as a term has a “long and troubled history.” (J. Crawford, The Creation of States in International Law (Oxford: Clarendon Press: 1979). p. 26) In its common usage, sovereignty means “totality of international rights and duties recognized by international law” as residing in an independent territorial unit: the state. (J. Crawford, The Creation of States in International Law (Oxford: Clarendon Press: 1979). p. 26) Those states, entities, and individuals who generally believe sovereignty is more important than self-determination in determining a people’s status generally want to preserve their territorial integrity. They believe that the state has exclusive jurisdiction to exercise political power and authority within borders and has the right to exercise anything necessary to preserve its territorial integrity from threats. (P. Williams and F. Pecci, Earned Sovereignty: Bridging the Gap between Sovereignty and Self-Determination, Stanford Journal of International Law 40 (2004) p. 352). The international community often opts for sovereignty over self-determination as well. (P. Williams and F. Pecci, Earned Sovereignty: Bridging the Gap between Sovereignty and Self-Determination, Stanford Journal of International Law 40 (2004) p. 353) Those supporting sovereignty over self-determination often perceive earned sovereignty as “potential destabilizing to the current international order by promoting the separation of substate entities from their parent states.” (P. Williams and F. Pecci, Earned Sovereignty: Bridging the Gap between Sovereignty and Self-Determination, Stanford Journal of International Law 40 (2004) p. 350-351).

Those states, entities, and individuals preferring self-determination are often secessionist movements and small states without significant minority populations. They believe that all self-identified groups with a coherent identity and connection to a defined territory are entitled to collectively determine their political destiny in a democratic way and should be free from persecution. Self-government is often realized through the creation of an autonomous province within the parent state and sometimes secession. (P. Williams and F. Pecci, Earned Sovereignty: Bridging the Gap between Sovereignty and Self-Determination, Stanford Journal of International Law 40 (2004) p. 353) They often perceive earned sovereignty as “a means for raising the bar for independence.” (P. Williams and F. Pecci, Earned Sovereignty: Bridging the Gap between Sovereignty and Self-Determination, Stanford Journal of International Law 40 (2004) p. 351).

The determination of final status, in which the relationship between the state and the substate entity is determined with the consent of the international community. (P. Williams and F. Pecci, Earned Sovereignty: Bridging the Gap between Sovereignty and Self-Determination, Stanford Journal of International Law 40 (2004) p. 355). When the time comes to determine the final status of the substate entity, any type of internal or external self-determination could happen from substantial autonomy to full independence. This decision is often made through either some sort of referendum or in negotiations and usually involves the international community. (P. Williams and F. Pecci, Earned Sovereignty: Bridging the Gap between Sovereignty and Self-Determination, Stanford Journal of International Law 40 (2004) p. 365).

In case of Abkhazia, there was no referendum where all ethnic groups took part in it and the international community has already determined the final status of Abkhazia within the framework of so called Boden Plan which determines the status of Abkhazia within the jurisdiction and borders of Georgia. Ldingley 18:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record: there was a "USSR renewal" referendum when the majority (52%) of Abkhazian population voted overwhelmingly (iirc 98%; because ethnic Georgians ignored it) for joining the union. [18]. Virtually all the non-Georgian population ignored the referendum on the independence of Georgia which was conducted later in the same month.

You've brought your own sources which may support your position. How are they better than those sources Britlawyer brought? In case we have conflicting sources the most logical thing to do is to write in the notes that the sovereignty of Abkhazia is disputed. Alæxis_¿question? 18:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Britlawyers sources:

1. Federal Practice, Exploring alternatives for Georgia and Abkhazia [19].

not a primary and even a secondary source. Not supported by any reference, resolution or international treaties. Just socio-political analysis of the conflict by Georgian, Abkhaz and western authors. Expressing personal views, opinions and vision. That’s all.

Resolutions or international treaties determine the de jure status. There's no point in seeking proof of de facto independence/sovereignty in these sources. Alæxis_¿question? 19:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Unresolved Conflicts in the Regional Security System: The Case of the South Caucasus [20].

Surely can not be considered as seriouse or valid source, the author is biased toward the one side (published in Yerevban Armenia) Gayane Novikova (Russian or Armenian). Russia as the side which supported separatist insurrection has published similar articles which are biased, POV and do not meet NPOV criteria. This source is dismissed from the start. Plus, author does not use any references to support her claims.

The ethnicity of the author is irrelevant (according to Wikipedia policies). What's important is that it's published in a peer-reviewed respectable journal and thus complies with Wikipedia policies regarding sources. Alæxis_¿question? 19:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Legal opinion on the validity and interpretation of the 4 April 1994 Georgian-Abkhazian Agreements [21].

Again, just a claim, opinion, suggestion but not factually or specifically idicating that under the international law, this region has obtained sovereignty. In fact article mentions: “The Security Council . . . believes that any unilateral act purporting to establish a sovereign Abkhaz entity would violate the commitments assumed by the Abkhaz side to seek a comprehensive political settlement of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. The Security Council reaffirms its commitment to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Georgia.” And “..But when recognition vel non of a government is by such nations determined by inquiry, not into its de facto sovereignty and complete governmental control, but into its illegitimacy or irregularity or origin, their non-recognition loses something of evidential weight on the issue with which those applying the rules of international law are alone concerned”.

According to this source 'Abkhazia ... gained de-facto independence from Georgia in 1993.' Of course it's an opinion as only opinions (supported or not supported by proof) could exist about the de facto situation. Alæxis_¿question? 19:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

1. BLACK SEA BASIN REGIONAL PROFILE: THE SECURITY SITUATION AND THE REGION-BUILDING OPPORTUNITIES [22]

Article lacks references, does not mentions Abkhazia being sovereign or in compliance with. Mon Convention. The only mention is :” Vladislav Ardzinba, shared with the Russian press his vision of the future of Abkhazia: a sovereign subject in international law, member of the UN and other international organizations, and sharing with Russia a common foreign and defence policy, a currency and custom union with Russia, and joint guards at the border.” Which does not say anything. No need going further its already clear. Thanks Britlawyer for giving us more cases to remove your original research.

This article does mention Abkhazia being sovereign: Abkhazia is effectively sovereign, though largely laid waste. Alæxis_¿question? 19:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The sources cited above are taken from scholarly work of well known specialists of international law (please review the cited sources) and not some unknown user who claims to be one. Ldingley 18:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

“ The determination of final status, in which the relationship between the state and the substate entity is determined with the consent of the international community. ”

Applying your own argument isn't this a private opinion of Messrs.(?) Williams and Pecci? Alæxis_¿question?

Does not metter how you twist my arguments, you still fail to present reliable sources and head for direct confrontation. BTW Where is Kosovo in this list? Ahhh you think Kosovo did not declare independence? Well its going to be on the list. Ldingley 19:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thats correct CONSENT OF INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, which places Abhazia within Georgian jurisdiction, read UN resolutions. BTW Kosovo is receiving this consent, therefore its suvereign by any means. Ldingley 19:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you positive of that considering that Russia is one of the Security Council members? Of course unless recognition of Kosovo is exchanged for the recognition of some other states :))) Alæxis_¿question? 20:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Finally, here is list of independent states from US State Dep [23] Anyway, no serious sources were presented. No more discussion is needed further. I will revert this rigid POV pushing. Removed Karabakh, Transmistia, and Abkhazia should stay? I dont think so. No need of further arguments, you have failed to present reliable sources. Ldingley 20:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by 'No need of further arguments'? I'd say it's rather uncivil. Alæxis_¿question? 20:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It means that lists of sovereign states from the US State Department, as well as other official institutions outperform the private newspaper-style sites, that you try to promote as sources... Pirveli 21:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Er... why? (cite Wiki-policy please) Alæxis_¿question? 04:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

To summarise my arguments - there are sources supporting Abkhazia's sovereignty and there is source (quoted by Luis) that says The determination of final status, in which the relationship between the state and the substate entity is determined with the consent of the international community. and thus seems to oppose Abkhazia's sovereignty. In such situation the most logical thing to do is to write in the notes that this state's sovereignty is disputed. Again, only opinions (supported or not supported by proof) could exist about the de facto situation. Alæxis_¿question? 12:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I've added a note about the disputed status. Alæxis_¿question? 14:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Sovereignty

Sovereignty is the exclusive right to exercise supreme political (e.g. legislative, judicial, and/or executive) authority over a geographic region, group of people, or oneself. A sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority, subject to no other. Thus the legal maxim, There is no law without a sovereign.

You've taken this definition from here, right? Please read this also, then.

Actually even if this definition were the only possible one there would still be argument about whether a country like Abkhazia is sovereign or not. Alæxis_¿question? 19:54, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Template

I restored the template. The discussion about it was here.Dl.goe 10:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I restored that template again. --Cucinas 20:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Question

there is the need for exclusion paragraph, otherwise non-sovereign states appear suddentl

What do you mean by "exclusion paragraph"? The whole idea of john k's compromise is to list the unrecognised countries in the subsection. What kind of exclusion paragraph is needed then? Alæxis_¿question? 10:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Criteria for exclusion

• Also not listed below are various disputed territories which cannot be justifiably assigned to the latter category, including Jubaland, Somaliland and Puntland (Somalia), Cabinda (Angola), Kosovo (Serbia), Kurdistan (Iraq), Kurdistan (Turkey), Abkhazia (Georgia), South Ossetia (Georgia), Transnistria (Moldova) and numerous others. For a more inclusive list that includes dependent territories and areas of special sovereignty, see list of countries.

• Active autonomist and secessionist movements are not included in this list.

• Areas with the status of demilitarised Zone, Neutral Zone.

• Military bases abroad.

• Any other entity not included in the general criteria or above, that results of a political fiction (Embassies or other offices abroad, monuments, religious entities not having a state status, agencies of international Organisation outside of their seat).

Jubaland, Kosovo, and Kurdistan are entirely different cases from Somaliland, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria. The former do not claim to be sovereign, the latter do. Acting as though they are the same seems unwise. john k 22:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

San Marino

San Marino should not be on the list. --87.101.240.36 12:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Vatican should be moved to Holy See (Vatican City State) --87.101.240.36 12:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Why protected?

I wanted to add the code and capital of sovereign states according to this format:

• code:
• capital city: name of the capital

--84.244.10.223 12:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

This info is already present in several articles. Alæxis_¿question? 12:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Can we compare, please the lists in this article and in the members of UN.

Maybe we should check each other:Dc76 13:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I have checked the list. I would like that someone also checks to re-confirm this:

• Taiwan is not in te UN list but is here
• East Timor is in this list (at E) and Timor-Leste) is in the other one (at T)
• Western Sahara is not in the UN list but is here
• Vatican in not in the UN list but is here
• ditto Nagorno-Karabakh, which with all due respect has to be erased

Dc76 14:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Lists of countries, states, territories, and similar entities

Dc76, what do you think of john k's proposal (21:48, 16 May) (it's here)? It was accepted by several users. Alæxis_¿question? 14:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Listing all entities in a way the information is clear and readable is obviously something everyone should welcome. I don't see what specifically is his proposal. However, I see many lists on WP, and don't really understand why are there so many, reapeating the same info again and again. Also, I am not sure I have seen all list yet. :-) The most logical begining that I saw is here: List of countries. IMHO, that page should be turned into Lists of countries, states, territories, and similar entities with the following sections (I am copying short portions from that page):

• Section 1: 193 states with general international recognition: 192 member states of the United Nations (UN). 1 state with general international recognition but not UN membership, governed by the Holy See (a UN permanent observer), the Vatican City. The term country in the most restrictive sense apply only to these.
• Section 2: 3 states with partial international recognition: Taiwan, Western Sahara, Palestine.
• Section 3: 38 inhabited dependent territories and 5 areas of special sovereignty
• Section 4: somwhere around 10 de facto independent states and territories, appearing as a result of other states failing to exercize their sovereignty: Northern Cyprus, Abhazia, Somaliland, etc lacking any significant measure of diplomatic recognition from other states.
• Section 5: A description that some regions of some countries are states: all 50 states of US, the Canadian provinces, at least one German state (Bavaria), etc Not necessary to give a full list, just to describe the phenomenon.
• Section 6: an overview of all other entities with a link to the Annex to the list of countries

IMHO:

• 202 sovereign states is original research
• nonetheless defined as states in the body of customary international law, drawing on the precedent of the Montevideo Convention is original research, but I do not mind to mention it, and even to give a tentative list of what can be, only it should be something like List of entities that satisfy Montevedeo Convention criterions, not Lists of unrecognized countries of other non-sense.

Dc76 15:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

sovereign could be changed to independent imho; these states are often called de facto independent ([24],[25])

they are also called unrecognised states (example) Alæxis_¿question? 16:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Palestine, which has some international recognition but no de facto statehood, is a rather different case from Western Sahara, which has some international recognition and de facto control of only a small territory, which is a different case again from Taiwan/ROC, which has limited international recognition and de facto control over, well, the island of Taiwan, Quemoy, and Matsu, which may or may not be all the territory it claims. Certainly Western Sahara and Taiwan, as de facto states, are distinct from Palestine, which is not one. But I suppose that is an argument with List of countries. john k 16:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

How about Section 2: 3 special cases The three cases are different one from the other, but can not be lumped together with anything else. They have in common the fact that 30+ countries do recognize them. However here all similarity ends, IMHO. I just don't want to have 3 lists with 1 entry each. That is the only reason I put them together.:Dc76 18:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Take a step back please...

I know this has probably been debated before, but I can't get the courage of reading through those volumes of archives, so I'm just going to bring it up anew:

Why for chrissake is this page not simply merged with another?

We currently have the following other list articles: List of unrecognized countries, List of countries, and United Nations member states. They all do pretty much the same things.

If those editors who want to include the Infamous Four (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, TRNC) get their way, this page will be essentially identical with List of countries, except that the latter additionally includes a couple of dependent territories that nobody really cares about. If the other side gets their way, this page will be essentially identical with United Nations member states, except for the Vatican, Taiwan and two or three others that nobody really cares about.

Now, everybody, take a deep breath, and ask yourselves: What is the purpose of this page?

This is a freakin' Wikipedia list. It's a navigational aid, not more and not less.

The purpose of this list page is not to provide a definition of what "sovereignty" means. Its purpose is not to provide a delimitation of what entities are "sovereign" by exhaustively enumerating them. Its purpose is not to confer to any particular entity a magical badge of Wikipedian approval or withhold it from them. But it's exactly this notion of a magical badge of legitimacy that people seem to be fighting over.

A list page is meant to provide an easy way for readers to navigate to places where they can look up things. So, let's ask ourselves: will there be readers who would like to find out something about Transnistria when browsing through a list of states? Hell, yes. Wouldn't they find the same information just as easily if they were browsing through List of countries instead of through this one? Hell, yes.

No this list is meant to be an exhaustive list of soverign states as defined by the article State, and that can be backed up by external sources when there is a dispute about if a state is soverign. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Let's merge it and be done with it and let's all get on with our lives. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with you, and I said it several times before. Dpotop 15:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I have exactly the same feeling as you (please, read my entry abave yours), except maybe I take it more cooler. :-) Anyway, I fully support your idea: the text from here should go to some article(s) about the notion of sovereignty and about what is a state. The list should be merged with List of countries. What do you think about renaming that article and the 6 sections I proposed? :Dc76 15:45, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the idea also. Alæxis_¿question? 15:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, we are converging on something? Astonishing! :-) So, what title are we going for? I propose to simply take the existing List of countries, as is. It does everything this page tries to do, plus a bit more. And I like the title, personally. "Country" is a somewhat vague term. I like vagueness. Natural language is vague, and so it should be. Vagueness is good. Vagueness allows for prototypicality effects. This is just what we need. A prototypical country is one whose sovereignty is unproblematic, which is part of the UN, recognised by everybody, etc. A "normal" country, in short. Every reader who sees the title "list of countries" will automatically understand that the list is going to contain predominantly these normal cases, things like Germany or Mexico or Bulgaria or Japan. And then there are a few less typical ones. They can still be subsumed under the term "country", without a big need to bother about technical definitions. The list is somewhat open-ended and yet centered around the typical cases. Nobody needs to worry about magical badges any more. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Alæxis_¿question? 16:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Heck, let's just do it. Shall we take the format of the listing in this article (with the official names in the various languages) and copy them over to the other article? We just need to mind those footnotes with the explanations about the various sovereignty problems. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, maybe we should first register a merge proposal over at List of countries so people get a chance of discussing the format first. This page currently has much bulkier entries than the other, and since the other is a featured list people might want to have a say before importing all this stuff here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Anyway this is not the place for invention lists like someone here is adding. See Lexicon's arguments. --Cucinas 16:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I think there's something to be said for a list that doesn't include dependent territories. But if it would solve the problem, whatever. john k 17:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

My impression is that "country" in English as closer in sense to what you call "prototypical country", which is somewhat different than "Land" in German which has a larger sense, if I am not mistaken. Likewise, in Romanian in middle ages one could call country ("ţară") everything that has "...land" in German, including often small regions, yet nowadays the sense is synonimous to "prototypical country". How about "Lists of countries and territories", leaving vague what is one and what the other? For example, Taiwan would be listed as "special cases", and let the reader guess whether it's a country or territory. In fact, look, Taiwan is neither 100% a "country", nor 100% a "territory", but is 100% in the "List of countries and territories". :-) :Dc76 18:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

IMO, it is absolutely normal to say "The world consists of 193 countries, 3 special cases, 43 territories, and a number of contentious cases." :Dc76 18:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

List of countries has been the name of the list for a long time and I don't see a good reason to change it considering that we don't add anything new there and taking into account what country means in English (per Webster's).

To me it looks vague enough and simple enough. The first sentence of the intro mentions what kinds of entities are present in the list - independent states (both those that are internationally recognised and generally unrecognised), inhabited dependent territories and areas of special sovereignty. Alæxis_¿question? 18:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, let's just leave the scope and definition of List of countries as it is, because it has worked fairly well so far, and just move over whatever they want to have from the content of the individual entries. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I would be highly inclined to follow suit, i.e. to take as a basis List of countries in the current format, if the following details are agreed:

• the 9 cases to be called simply "special cases", and to be treated each one separately, not lumped together on any criterion other that they are "special cases". Especially do not make subgroups within groups, that is highly POV. E.g., do not lump together Abkhazia and Transnistria. The later is a de facto independent territory not state. There should be a special sentence, that listing the 9 together does not mean they are similar, simply that they don't fit anywhere else.
• 193 is one category, 9 is a different one. don't do 193+9. Especially outrageous since below 38+4 is not done.
• where is the Soveregn Order of Malta? Where is Kosovo? Where is Chechnya? There should be 12, not 9 above.
• where are Disputed territories, including Jubaland and Puntland (Somalia), Cabinda (Angola), Kurdistan (Iraq), Kurdistan (Turkey) and "numerous others"? Links to these should be included as well. Not a full list here, but direct links to those pages is a must. For example "See also x, y, and list of z."

I would like to respectfully insist that these "details" be recongnized as legitimate or at least in principle legitimate. If yes, I follow suit. :Dc76 21:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused about your claim that the de facto status of Abkhazia and Transnistria are different. Could you explain? Beyond that, Kosovo is recognized currently as being technically part of Serbia, although it might be considered a dependent territory of some sort and has, I think, in the past, listed as such. Chechnya is not a de facto independent state - it was at one time in the late 90s, but it is currently not - the supposed sovereign Chechen government does not control any part of Chechnya and, so far as I can tell, is at this point barely functional even as a government in exile. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta, whatever it is, is not a country. As to the rest, they should not be listed - they are not countries at all, and many of them don't even claim to be such - I know, at least, that the leaders of both Puntland and Iraqi Kurdistan recognize their place as parts of Somalia and Iraq, even if many there would desire independence. john k 02:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. If it were 1998 now Chechnya would deserve to be in the list however now don't really control any population/territory. The former de facto independent states belong to the special section in the List of unrecognised states.

When Kosovo declares independence it'll be put here without any delay.

source where all the post-soviet unrecognised countries are called states - Dov Lynch. Engaging Eurasia's Separatist States: Unresolved Conflicts and de Facto States. Forward by Richard H. Solomon. Washington, D.C.: United States Institute of Peace, 2004. xvii + 170 pp. Forward, preface, maps, notes, index. $12.50 (paper), ISBN 978-1-929223-54-1. Alæxis_¿question? 06:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Answer to John Kenney about diff between Abkhazia and Transnistria. Before their de facto separation from Georgia, resp Moldova they had different status within those coutries: Abkhazia was an "autonomous republic", i.e. legally recognized as a state (as New York within USA), while Transnistria was a set of raions, like Cornwall within UK, a number of counties, with no statehood whatsoever. The fact that one sourse got it wrong (I am sure unintentionally) does not mean that everyone from now on should call black white. In short, I only want that each case should be listed separately within that list of 9,12, or whatever the number will be, not groupped. The only time they could have been grouped would be if they were two identical type of entities within the same country. If someone wants to mention somewhere the list of differences and similarities of some situations - be my guest, but don't state as axiom that they are identical. Don't you agree that this is a logical request?

Okay, I understand the distinction, but it's not really relevant. Abkhazia is not being listed here because of its de jure status as an autonomous republic within Georgia. It is being listed because of its claim to be independent, which is exactly the same as South Ossetia, Transnistria, North Cyprus, and the rest. john k 20:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

"And the rest" you say! Taiwan included? Western Sahara included? Palestine included? (I expect you to say yes to the first 2 and no to the third) Kosovo and Hospitaliers I do see as clearly different by this criterion. Chechnya is a problem, but let's live it alone for now.:Dc76 21:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The exact list can be discussed later. But if you want here is my POV:

• you say "Kosovo is recognized currently as being technically part of Serbia, although it might be considered a dependent territory of some sort" So is Abkhazia and Transnistria! they are technically recognized as parts of those countries. That's way i suggested the term "special cases", which is as neutral as it can get. Explaining what is a state/country/territory etc should be a separate paragraph, not a declaration before the list begins

The situation is quite different, as the government of Kosovo itself recognizes that, for the moment, Kosovo is not sovereign and is part of Serbia. Again, this is an entirely different situation. The government of Kosovo does not assert sovereignty, while those of Abkhazia and Transnistria do. john k 20:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if you look at this criterion, they are in the same list (Taiwan is in the same list then?) But this is not the only legitimate criterion. My point is exaclty this - do not subgroup them under any common title, and then all problems are avoided.:Dc76 21:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• there are more arguments with Chechnya, and I would rather not "poison" our discussion now. I will present them after the merge will be done, and we can be cool and analyse the situation later.
• for the Order of Malta we must thank Robert de Craon, who managed to get papal edict for the Templars, which then was repreated for the Hospitaliers, for this discussion. It is really-really a very special case. Again, let's consider it later. I only want to honestly inform you that these cases will be brought for discussion, and we'll have to think about them.

The Order of Malta is indeed a special case, but it's not a country, which implies some kind of geographical extent. Similarly, the Holy See is not a state, although it is sovereign. john k 20:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, they have one house :-) :Dc76 21:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• as for the rest of cases, I agree with John, let's leave them appart. They should be trated in other pages/lists, and only See also the list of or something like this should be given here, IMO:Dc76 14:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The fact that one sourse got it wrong (I am sure unintentionally)...

That's your opinion and not a fact. One could dispute every single reference claiming that it's wrong - imagine what would happen then. Alæxis_¿question? 14:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

What is your point? Are you questioning the territorial organization of Moldova in 1992?:Dc76 16:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

My point is that PMR is described as de facto/unrecognised/de facto/etc independent state (as I've demonstrated). Therefore I consider unnecessary to change the text in the list of countries, especially considering that it has been stable for a long time and has a featured status. Alæxis_¿question? 16:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Title: special cases. Item: Transnistria. Comment: dejure part of Moldova. Further comment: functions like an independent state. Further comment: Igor Smirnov calls it a republic. Further comment: x, y (sourses) say z, t (comments). :Dc76 17:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a list and it should be more concise if possible. Additional info could be given in th e notes.

Let's wait a bit and see what do other (neutral) people think about it. Alæxis_¿question? 18:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure to e note, and sure to other editors. There is only one thing that I insist upon: not to give information in "axiomatic" form: no "list of thing this editor thinks should be called x", and no grouping entities in a way that suggests something, even when there are some similarities. Look at the list of dependent territories, where they are groupped together only if the cases refer to the same country.:Dc76 19:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the comment would be something along the lines of "separatist region exercising de facto sovereignty, but internationally recognized as a de jure part of Moldova." No need to list specific sources in anything besides a footnote. john k 20:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

That would be perfect with me.:Dc76 21:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Wait a sec, John (I hope you don't mind I call you by your first name; mine starts with D, but I'd prefer not to give it away on WP), do you agree to not do the 193+9? do you agree to not do the 1+5? (northern cyprus, recogn. by one state + 5 recogn. by none) If so, then let's round up the discussion. P.S. Somewhere Kosovo will have to be listed. A separate 1-member list for Kosovo, below dependences?:Dc76 21:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I suppose I agree. I'm uncertain about Kosovo - it's not already listed? john k 22:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone removed it from the list. I hope I am not going to get killed for this and this. I also move for ending the discussion here and copy this talk page in Talk:List of countries. (We can merge the two article gradually later on.) To be sure, was there any voice against merging the with List of countries ? Am I asking this question too early? :Dc76 23:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

A List of countries including separatist enclaves, should also provide information in brackets, pointing out, part of which state this territory is. Pirveli 06:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I have not objection to that, but could we please, continue this discussion in Talk:List of countries, if this article is to be merged there, b/c the guys there will object to us discussion that article here.:Dc76 11:16, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I object to the page name move. England is a country and the English a nation who inhabit that country, but England is not a state. The UK is a state but it is a union of 3 1/3 nations and countries. --Philip Baird Shearer 13:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Is “Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic” a sovereign state?

The inclusion of The "Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic" as a sovereign state is completely wrong. It is a government-in-exile, based in Algeria. While recognised by some 40 countires, it is not recognised by the UN, nor by the Arab League (it is Arab), nor by the Islamic Conference (it is Islamic), let alone the rest of the world. The Palestine Authority is not in exile, is based in Gaza and has some control on part of the territory it claims, but is not listed, as is the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. If these two are not listed, There is less reason for listing a self-declared republic for a territory that the UN considers as in dispute, and is trying to solve the issue, either with independence - only then we can talk about a sovereign state- or integration with Morocco.--A Jalil 12:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The issue is: What is a sovereign state?. Obviously, this list does not comply with the Montevideo Convention of 1933: it is much more restrictive. Since the list doesn't match to custom lists of states neither (due to the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic in the list), we must consider it as unsourced. --Juiced lemon 13:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced? How is this unsourced? The criteria listed are: (a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. The list includes all states that satisfy these criteria and claim independence. The SADR has a permanent population (the refugees in Tindouf), defined territory (Western Sahara), government (the SADR and its several organs), and the capacity to enter into relations with other states (it has diplomatic relations with over 40 states). The source for this list is Article I of the Montevideo Convention. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

This list of sovereign states is unsourced because there are much more countries which fulfill the requirements of the Montevideo Convention of 1933, like the Principality of Sealand, or the countries in list of countries: the used criteria to select a fewer number of countries are unknown. --Juiced lemon 15:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Not unsourced That doesn't make it unsourced, that makes it incomplete. Also, Sealand does not fit your example; it does not meet criterion (d). If you have an example that actually does fulfill the criteria and isn't on the list, add it. The criteria are known; they are listed in the intro to the article. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 15:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Travel documents

If a resident of Nagorno-Karabakh (to take one from the list of De facto independent states) wishes to travel to the Untied States (to vist for example the UN in New York) or the Schengen area what do they use for a passort or document to be allowed entry? --Philip Baird Shearer 17:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Armenian passport, maybe. Btw, there already exists a list of internationally recognised countries - United Nations member states. Alæxis_¿question? 17:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

UN member states That list is a list of UN member states, not of internationally-recognized states. For instance, the Holy See is not a member, nor was Switzerland prior to 2002. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 17:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Lets not go around the UN loop again in this section there are lots of other sections on this talk page which can and are used for that discussion. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhapse a practical test for whether a state is generally internationally recognised is if their passports would be accepted as an valid travel document by the US and the Schengen area. If their passports are not, then that is a strong case for saying that a "de facto independent state is not a de facto independent state --Philip Baird Shearer 17:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Well said Philip. I strongly agree with you. That is a strong proof.--A Jalil 17:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd subscribe to this, were it not WP:OR. Someone should write a paper on this, so that we can use it later. Dpotop 21:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Support.:Dc76 13:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It is not OR. If evidence is produced that the travel documentation of a state is not recognised by the states of the Schengen area, this is indicative that the state does not have international recognition. For example do the people of Northern Cyprus travel on Turkish passports or Cypriot passports? If the latter who issues them? If the former then that is indicative that the state of Norther n Cyprus is not recognised as a state by the international community and if it is not recognised as a state the entitiy does not have the "capacity to enter into relations with the other states". --Philip Baird Shearer 11:25, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The last conclusion you've made is not that evident. The entity may have the capacity but it could be unrealised. Besides, in absence of formal recognition informal relations are usually present. Anyway, it's really WP:OR. Alæxis_¿question? 12:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

No it is not OR, It is OR to assume that a state exists, not that it does not exist. To place a state on this page there has to evidence that the state exists and for it to exist its existence has to have international recognition. One of the basic forms of recognition of a state is that the residents of the territories claimed by a state are recognized as belonging to that state by other states. If the residents of a territory have to travel on docuements produced by another state that suggests that the state is not recognised. It would be up to the person who whishes to include a state on this page to come up with a valid proof that such international recognition exists. One such valid proof for most states existance is that their passports are recognised and accepted as international traval documents. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

This is constitutive theory of statehood. There exists another one, namely declarative theory of statehood. Look at this article also. Alæxis_¿question? 19:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you are wrong, because they can not have the "capacity to enter into relations with the other states" unless those other states recognise that they may enter into relations with them. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW, anyone wants to count and correct 192+3=200, please. Modifying the list without the proper change of numbers is, IMHO, cat writing not human writing.:Dc76 20:36, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

IMO, The list can include the states for which there is recongnition, plus a sending to a list where the entities without recognition are listed, and a short reference to the existing dispute about the interpretation of Montevedeo convention. :Dc76 20:36, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

2Dc76

Please next time write about your intentions in the talk first (or at least in the edit summaries). You could also use your sandbox to create your version of the article and then propose it. Alæxis_¿question? 15:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I perfectly understand your concerns, but please understand me as well - it is much more work any other way, or/and (in the case of a sandbox) I can not propose the changes with a link in the article history showing them precisely. Consequently I sometimes opt to "be bold" and then to "politely revert myself" so that people can see this is a proposal. I would obviously not do this with an article listed in a high quality category. But, when we have an article that for several weeks says "192+3=200", some changes of mine that last barely a few minutes/one hour would hardly damage anything. Obviously, "192+3=200" automatically makes the article of low quality, despite it having imho a high potential for being of a good or even very good quality. (It is very informative if one takes one hour to correct the mistakes! but how many readers have this extra hour?):Dc76 16:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, see below the description of my proposal. cheers.:Dc76 16:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think putting "see talk in a few minutes" in the edit summary takes a lot of work :) Alæxis_¿question? 16:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, you mean that. Sure, I'll do so next time. I thought you wanted me to describe evertyhing in the talk page in advance. :-) I have a mindset not of a computer engineer (I have a different profession), I'm more comfortable with discussiing structure and organization, thinking and judging propsals as a whole rather than making comments. Keeping logs is a pain for me, and commenting always bring the question: what else except "copyedit" I can write here? :-) Commenting each small change is unnatural for my mindset, I'm much more comfortable to comment the general principles and important featues of a change/issue/notion/property/whatever, and the details are left for the reader to check.:-)  :Dc76 17:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Clean up (please see "Clean up 2" below)

This proposal has received little interest to respond to, hence forget it. "Clean up 2" below is better organized and more simple.:Dc76 15:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I did some clean up today:

1. 192+3=195, as known in the real world, not 200 as in some WP articles :-)
2. erased one empty line above Western Sahara
3. separated some paragraphs in the section "Criteria for inclusion" into a sub-section of it "Non-inclusion" (feel free to propose a differnt title)
4. Replaced "Also not listed below are various disputed territories which cannot be justifiably assigned to the latter category, including" with "Also not listed below are various disputed territories, independentist movements that do not have a government with control over a defined territory, or independentist-oriented local governments that did not declare complete independence, including"
5. cleared Kosovo out of this category and into a separate next paragraph "Not listed below is the UN-administered territory of Kosovo (Serbia)." b/c this has nothing to do with the separatist movement in Kosovo, but with the status of the territory. Kosovo does NOT have a breakaway government.
6. added a paragraph "Unlisted are also six entities that satisfy criteria (a)-(c), but fail to satisfy the criterion (d) international recongnition: Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Northern Cyprus, Somaliland, South Ossetia, and Transnistria. For a more inclusive list that includes non-recongnized ot partially recognized states, see also list of unrecognized countries." in order to explain why these are not listed by letters within the list.
7. changed the name of the section "De facto independent states" to "Appendix: De facto independent states" b/c this is A LIST, hence we can not have TWO lists. But IMO it's ok to have that list here as an appendix. Anyway, we can discuss this issue separately if you like.
8. related to this I added one word in the "Contents"
9. related to this, I added a lead paragraph to the appendix list: "Not included in the above list are the six de facto independent states that are not recognized by any country, or (in the case of Northern Cyprus) recognized by one country which played a key role in the de facto establishment of the state:", and added "Northern Cypurs" to the list. Again, if you want to discuss this separately - no problem.
10. added "(de jure part of Somalia)" to Somaliland, b/c all other entries in the list had this phrase
11. added a statistics subsection with two tables: one - the number of states by letters of alphabet: A to Z, with links to each letter, second - the number by continent (here we need to check each other, so I suggest each checks a few letters each day, in two weeks we will have 3-4 users checking every letter for every continent ==> we'll be sure the numbers add up.

What do you think of these changes. I am undoing them now, b/c I did not discussed them before this clean up (it is too difficult to describe approximately what one wants to do, that is bound to be vague and sertainly someone will misunderstand; while it is much easier to do it, describe the exact changes, give link, and politely revert oneself). Appart from expressiong your view (agree, disagree, or agree this disagree that), please tall you POV about the following proposal for (an informal) general policy when making changes to this list: (:Dc76 15:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC))

When editting the List of sovereign states in the sense of adding or removing an entry, or changing the name of an entry resulting in the entry being listed under a different first letter, please do: make sure you correct thoroghly the arithmetic in the lead section, e.g. 192+3=195 to 193+1=194. make sure you have the correct number of entries listed for each letter. make sure you have the correct number of entries listed for each continent.

• obviously, I supoort all 11 points of my proposal, without reservations, and approve the text of the "general policy" frame. :Dc76 17:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

---

• regarding #4. Are you sure the word independist exists in English? According to Webster's it doesn't [26]. Alæxis_¿question? 20:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I mean to say independentist. :-) :Dc76 16:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• regarding #5 Kosovo could be described as disputed territory imho so it could remain where it's now. The proposed version also isn't bad so I won't support or oppose any of them. Alæxis_¿question? 20:05, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
• regarding #2. support. Alæxis_¿question? 20:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I am glad we don't contradict on this. :) :Dc76 16:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• regarding #10. support. Alæxis_¿question? 20:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
• regarding #11. partial support. There's a certain point in giving the number of countries by continents (although it'll probably ignite the debates about which continent are Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan in). I fail to see any point in giving the number of countries by the first letter. Imho it'll only swell the article without adding any useful info. Alæxis_¿question? 20:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
• regarding #1,3,4,6,7,8,9. oppose, at least now. The criterion (d) is not int'l recognition but capacity to enter into relations with the other states. So it's not really evident that they don't satisfy this criterion given what capacity could mean. For the record it's also disputed by some that they satisfy (a)-(c) criteria. That's about your argument in #6. Your proposal to replace inclusion with non-inclusion and move the countries in question to appendix isn't really justified imho. Alæxis_¿question? 20:20, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem is we still have two lists, not one. I think we should either merge them into the list or erase them at all. Otherwise it seems we have one version for one reader and another version for another. Seems like content forking to me. The introduction should mention the 6 - as "included" or as "not included" is a different question. Also, to #1, either 192+3=195, or 192+3+5=200, or 192+3+6=201. I have serious issues :-) with 192+3=200, and I'm ready to start an edit war over incorrect arithmetic. :-) :Dc76 16:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)